hatchery fish = wild fish

[lost_sailor]

I see that HB 2459 and HB 2460 have been scheduled for a public hearing on Tuesday, March 4 at 9:00 am in Hearing Room B.

This is a rerun of Rep. Jeff Kruse's short-circuit of endangered species laws, or some such :whazzup: :shrug:

I will try to get there. My take is simply that it's not appropriate for the legislature to dictate fisheries management policy by law. I don't really know what motivates this proposal, but I strongly suspect it is not concern for wild fish.

I'm very interested in hearing other viewpoints on this. Last session, Kruse presented this as a "starting point" - as the wording is rather broad and vague:

A BILL FOR AN ACT
Relating to wild fish management policy.
Whereas anadromous fish recovery relies on many factors beyond
human control; and
Whereas the effectiveness of watershed and riparian
improvements that have been made and that are still being made
cannot be measured by the number of returning fish; and
Whereas it is now possible to raise hatchery fish that are
genetically identical to anadromous fish in specific streams and
that actually enhance return numbers and survivability rates of
anadromous fish; now, therefore,
Be It Enacted by the People of the State of Oregon:
SECTION 1. { + The State Department of Fish and Wildlife shall
modify any declared wild fish management policy. A wild fish
management policy shall:
(1) Treat hatchery fish that are bred from wild stocks as wild
fish. These fish shall be considered viable and shall be allowed
to reproduce if they return to spawn; and
(2) Require hatchery propagation to be from wild fish. + }

[ 02-27-2003, 09:22 AM: Message edited by: lost_sailor ]

[Straydog]

It is all about personal property rights having the upper hand on community rights.

[ 02-27-2003, 09:29 AM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

[finclipped]

Jeff Kruse is a lifelong farmer. His father owns Kruse Farms, a local Roseburg farm, which relies on significant water rights from the Umpqua for summer crop waterings. I am sure his political efforts are not driven by recovery of wild stocks. I would assume his funding came from his father and other farmers like himself. Although my contact with Jeff was very limited, I respected his brother. I was never impressed by Jeff as an individual, his work ethic or his intelligence.

[Wild Chrome]

:rolleyes: Here we go again. Wonder who funded Mr. Kruse's campaign?

[lost_sailor]

WELL let's not get all excited all at once!

No diversity of opinions? I thought this was ifish.net hmmmmmmm

Anyhoo, it's the House Water Committee and here are the players, should you wish to participate in the democratic process (if you find that distasteful, you may call it the republicating process).

MISTER CHAIRMAN
Representative Bob Jenson
Party: R District: 58
Capitol Phone: 503-986-1458
Capitol Address: 900 Court St. NE H-480, Salem Or 97301
Email Address: rep.bobjenson@state.or.us

MADAME VICE-CHAIRPERSON
Representative Jackie Dingfelder
Party: D District: 45
Capitol Phone: 503 986-1445
Capitol Address: 900 Court St. NE H-383, Salem Or 97301
Email Address: rep.jackiedingfelder@state.or.us

MISTER *spineless* VICE-CHAIRPERSON
Representative Jeff Kropf
Party: R District: 17
Capitol Phone: 503-986-1417
Capitol Address: 900 Court St. NE H-386, Salem Or 97301
Email Address: rep.jeffkropf@state.or.us
Capitol Web Address: http://www.leg.state.or.us/kropf/home.htm

Representative Linda Flores
Party: R District: 51
Capitol Phone: 503- 986-1451
Capitol Fax: 503-986-1577
Capitol Address: 900 Court St. NE H-287, Salem Or 97301
Email Address: rep.lindaflores@state.or.us

SPONSOR (rhymes with bass hole)
Representative Jeff Kruse
Party: R District: 7
Capitol Phone: 503-986-1407
Capitol Address: 900 Court St. NE H-286, Salem Or 97301
Email Address: rep.jeffkruse@state.or.us

Representative Mike Schaufler
Party: D District: 48
Capitol Phone: 503 986-1448
Capitol Address: 900 Court St. NE H-474, Salem Or 97301
Email Address: rep.mikeschaufler@state.or.us

Representative Carolyn Tomei
Party: D District: 41
Capitol Phone: 503 986-1441
Capitol Address: 900 Court St. NE H-388, Salem Or 97301
Email Address: rep.carolyntomei@state.or.us

[garyk]

Politicians like Kruse are the first to demand 'sound science' and so forth.

Then, they're the first to throw science and biology out the window and by changing simply changing definitions, make the problem of diminished wild runs go away. (How convenient)

We need more fish and less Kruse.

[Born to be Wild]

I agree with garyk. :cheers: graemlins/applause.gif
:bowdown:

Whereas it is now possible to raise hatchery fish that are
genetically identical to anadromous fish in specific streams and
that actually enhance return numbers and survivability rates of
anadromous fish<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">:laugh: Now that's sound science, ain't it? :laugh:

(1) Treat hatchery fish that are bred from wild stocks as wild
fish. These fish shall be considered viable and shall be allowed
to reproduce if they return to spawn; and
(2) Require hatchery propagation to be from wild fish. <font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">Now,that's really sound! :laugh: graemlins/stupid.gif

I don't really know what motivates this proposal, but I strongly suspect it is not concern for wild fish.<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">It would venture to take an uneducated guess lost_sailor, that your suspicions are correct!
graemlins/applause.gif

I couldn't base those asumptions of Mr. Kruse on the science or biology I have read or heard.
Thanks for bringing this up.
Where is this "scheduled for a public hearing on Tuesday, March 4 at 9:00 am in Hearing Room B" located at? Portland?

I doubt I could make the trip, but tell Mr Kruse to let the Biologist make the decisions. It's working.

Dan

[lost_sailor]

That would be "State Capitol building, Salem."

E-mails are good, phone calls are better. I wouldn't try to tell Mister Kruse anything ... better luck just talking to the yellow dog, here ... fortunately there are others who might listen.

[BrionLutz]

Lost Sailor,

Good catch.

I'm sending letters and email this time. A couple of the Reps reps told me that letters have more of an impact then the emails.

We should probably include Gov. Kulongoski's office. In case this crazy stuff escapes the legislature, he can veto it.

This goes hand in hand with the bills to prevent the ODFW from keeping salmon on the Oregon Endangered Species list if Sec. of Interior Norton is successful in delisting salmon at the Federal level.

Brion

[ 02-28-2003, 08:30 PM: Message edited by: BrionLutz ]

[Born to be Wild]

Hey lost_sailor,
I talk to my yellow dog (lab) all the time and he listens!
Might just go out of my way and go.
Was considering making a delivery and visit in Longview about mid week anyway.
You gonna be there?
http://www.ifish.net/uploads/33350159.jpg

[GutshotApe]

Originally posted by finclipped:
Jeff Kruse is a lifelong farmer. His father owns Kruse Farms, a local Roseburg farm, which relies on significant water rights from the Umpqua for summer crop waterings. I am sure his political efforts are not driven by recovery of wild stocks. I would assume his funding came from his father and other farmers like himself. Although my contact with Jeff was very limited, I respected his brother. I was never impressed by Jeff as an individual, his work ethic or his intelligence. <font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">Kruse (and Kropf, and others) understand little about scientific fisheries management i.e. the value of wild vs. hatchery fish....what they do know is that significant numbers of their constituents are very critical of ODFW.....some criticism is possibly deserved but most criticism is based on misinformation, lack of understanding, and basic personal greed or selfishness. The Roseburg area's Umpqua Fisherman's Alliance consists of several hundred local anglers, many of whom think they know far more about fish than the biologists and fisheries scientists. They are among the supporters of Rep. Kruse. Rep.Kropf has his own contingent of ya-hoos who also know more than all the ODFW biologists. :hoboy:

[Born to be Wild]

"lack of understanding"
graemlins/applause.gif graemlins/applause.gif graemlins/dork.gif graemlins/stupid.gif graemlins/applause.gif graemlins/applause.gif

[Born to be Wild]

Sounds like the Alsea River alliance!
Just wasting a lot of money that could of been used to improve fisheries instead of fattening some lawyers pocket book.
What a waste!
Ron Yeckout, stick with banking.
You're not my hero!
Obviously haven't put your time in researching science on the Salmonid's.

[ 03-02-2003, 12:33 PM: Message edited by: DepoeBayDan ]

[Straydog]

Good points GSA,

My observations tell me that ODFW bashing is a team sport in Douglas Co.

My experience tells me the majority of elected officals in the area have no understanding of fish biology and even less desire to learn it.

[GutshotApe]

You're right Straydog.....Douglas County seems to have the most virulent form of the affliction. I once wrote an op-ed piece about the importance of preserving the native fish genetics (compared it to the lessons learned in forestry about the importance of using seedlings from local seed sources in reforestation). Anyway, the piece ran in the Roseburg paper. A week later I was at a meeting at the odfw office in Roseburg and the most vocal critic of all, a gentleman whose intials are GB (you may know him) was carrying on about there being no difference between wild and hatchery fish. Outside, during a break, I asked him if he had read my opinion piece.....he responded "I don't have time to read that crap....all I know is there wouldn't be any fish in the river if not for the UFA hatchbox program and therefore all the fish are hatchery fish. I've got 15 years experience in STEP and I know what I'm talking about."

I think he actually had one year's worth of experience 15 times. :wink:

Anyhow, this guy, and dozens of others like him continually complain to the Kruses & Kropfs in Salem and after a while, the squeaky wheel gets greased.

[ 03-02-2003, 09:15 AM: Message edited by: GutshotApe ]

[Straydog]

GSA,

Let's just say I know "of" GB... :hoboy:

Yes, he and his cohorts seem to have the time and will to keep the leaders ears filled with their opinions. Not fact, mind you, opinions.

It is my belief that the ODFW bashing also goes along with the sense of disgust I hear so often in Roseburg concerning the fact that there are more public employees than there are private sector employees. It always makes me kind of chuckle when I hear these complaints from store owners or employees. I guess they would prefer the poverty and low rent of Sutherlin to the relative brisk employment in Roseburg as well as the wages that ripple through the economy and their stores.

This anti ODFW mentality seems to carry over onto the riverbanks as well.

I may have already shared the story about the guy that hooked the coho while bank fishing with others. Seems he hooks this fish and some 'benevolant' guy fishing near him picks up a net and kindly offers assistance. They get the fish in, the stranger nets it for the angler but the angler sees an extra fin. Angler says, "oh darn, that is wild fish, I have to release it". "Benevolant" stranger says, "Bull Poop (or something similar......) and bonks the fish, unhooks it and throws it in the bushes while saying "there ain't no reason to release any fish, they are all the same anyway." The bewildered and disheartened angler quit fishing and went to the nearest phone and reported the guy. graemlins/applause.gif

Also, in a recent edition of STS there was an article about tracking the Umpqua Steelhead. It said one thing that came out of the research was the huge poaching problem in the Umpqua system.

And most of my college buddies said "all the dumb rednecks come from Josephine county"!?! :whazzup: :shrug:

[ 03-02-2003, 10:10 AM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

[GutshotApe]

Originally posted by Straydog:
GSA,

Yes, he and his cohorts seem to have the time and will to keep the leaders ears filled with their opinions.

It is my belief that the ODFW bashing also goes along with the sense of disgust I hear so often in Roseburg concerning the fact that there are more public employees than there are private sector employees. <font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">Unfortunately, Kruse & Kropf aren't "leaders"....they're "representatives" (reprehensibles?) in the pure form. If they were truly leaders they would find out the facts and LEAD! Instead, they represent their constituents....some would say this is Democracy it should be....but there's a very good reason our founding fathers established our form of govt. and not a true direct democracy.

And your observation about the Douglas County anti-govt. provincialism is right on.....I've heard enough remarks by local politicians and so-called community leaders from that area to wonder if maybe its caused by something in their water supply.... :whazzup: :wink:

[Straydog]

GSA,

Good point, I stand corrected!

I usually put "leaders" in quotes for a reason. Brain flatulance led me to leave it off this time but your word is better yet. :wink:

[speyfly]

Since we’re talking about the Umpqua and the mentality of the local fishermen, I have to agree that there are many that are guilty of being very greedy. The founder of the Umpqua Fisherman Association (Doug Brown) was one of the most uninformed, arrogant people I have ever known and his bias opinion was based on nothing but selfishness. I had the opportunity to fish with him and his hatred of anyone that had an opposing opinion based on good information was extreme and well known within the Umpqua fishing circles. He had stated publicly that it was his right to do whatever he wanted, when he wanted and he got a great deal of please bashing those who opposed him and his baseless opinion. One time that I was fishing with him he hooked a steelhead at the Forks and was clearly in the South river, landed this Nate and bonked it even though the south river was closed to the taking of wild fish. The guy was a loose cannon and was the spokes person for many of the local fishermen. Just my $.02

[Straydog]

Spey, GSA,

JJJeeeezzzz, I have to 'stand corrected' twice in one day!! :blush:

Now that I read the name, I do indeed know DB! :shocked: (I was thinking of another DB when I said I just knew 'of' him)

I used to have to call on the guy. It took a lot of time and energy to flush the memories and now you guys bring it all back!!!! :shrug: :grin:

For the sake of what little professionalism I still have, I will keep my comments to a minimum.

Let's just say I had more hair and higher respect for fishing guides before I became associated with DB.

The good news for me is he went out of business, last I heard.

[Born to be Wild]

Hey guys, that attitude just doesn't exist in your neck of the woods. Down here on the Coast it is every bit as bad, if not worse.
I've been fighting it for 9 years now. That's the reason I have learned what little I know about Salmonid biology.
I was sick & tired of hearing ODFW bashing on a dailey basis in person and on public radio (CB).
I won't mention who the worst are, only the fact that they take customers out in the Ocean to catch fish.

When they lost there Ocean Coho season back in '94, things got progressively worse.
I don't have time to read or listen to this crap...., was predominant.
Trouble is, these professionals were preaching there religion to the masses.
Doom & gloomer’s, that they were and for the most part, still are.
There pathetic handling of wild Coho demonstrates there attitudes and lack of ears.
I have observed at ODFW Salmon meetings where it appeared to me that ODFW avoided the importance or biology of the wild fish because they are aware of the attitudes of some if not most of these barbershop biologist or cafe scientists.
Lack of education and exploitation seem to be the biggest problem to me.

I have suggested to a few in the past, I think we need to have a "Town Hall" on KATU channel 2 in Portland to educate the masses.
Seems when you have something like that televised, people are more apt to tune in and listen even if they are closed minded.
We have rounded the corner regarding the Coastal Coho and have current stat’s or facts to use in this process now.

It would be my hope that this season folks won't have to listen to these "professionals" call released wild Coho "crab bait" on there CB's.

Last year there was an Oregonian article that pointed out that these "professionals" own customers were complaining about there handling and releasing of wild Coho out in the salt.
I made several copies of this article and gave it to some of these folks. I think it changed some attitudes when they realized that they were being criticized by there own customers.

Lack of education.
We have a long ways to go, and I feel we aren't doing the job.

Dan

[GutshotApe]

DBDan - You nailed it.....one of our biggest problems, if not the biggest, is lack of public education and understanding. ODFW tried to do something about it a few years ago with a beefed up Info. & Edu. department. Published a slick magazine, had regional I&E people to try to get the word out, etc. Some members of the Oregon House of Reprehensibles didn't like that....and ODFW's I&E efforts have been scaled back accordingly.

A quote by my favorite 19th century author, Ambrose Bierce, from his Devil's Dictionary, seems to fit these people:

" IDIOT - A member of a large and powerful tribe whose influence in human affairs has always been dominant and controlling. The Idiot's activity is not confined to any special field or thought or action, but "pervades and regulates the whole." He has the last word in everything; his decision is unappealable. He sets the fashions of opinion and taste, dictates the limitations of speech and circumscribes conduct with a deadline."

[ 03-02-2003, 12:44 PM: Message edited by: GutshotApe ]

[lost_sailor]

The chairman had a "question" that was mainly just his expression of offense at being "not worthy" to make fish policy. I just repeated that I still thought that policy should be based on scientific fact, and that the wording of the proposed law was too broad - and pointed out the logic - if hatchery fish from wild stocks are considered "wild" and ALL hatchery fish are REQUIRED to be from wild stocks, then after one generation "every fish in Oregon will be a wild fish - and I don't believe that."

The work session might be interesting. I think the "R"s know exactly what their little plan is, but I don't.

[rebell]

lost_sailor, you make all of us proud!! graemlins/applause.gif

Please keep up the good work.

[Born to be Wild]

You're making me feel more guilty by the moment sailor that I didn't go out of my way and attend!
But, I did find a way today to combat this non sence and it is far from over with!

Dan

[garyk]

Thanks LostSailor for being there and doing the important work, while most of us spent the day doing the wage-work.

Nice testimony, great line in the second paragraph: " I cannot guess what has motivated this proposal, but I'm quite certain it isn't a deep concern for the health of Oregon's fisheries." That one's a keeper!

Isn't it interesting that the cow lobby feels compelled to speak in favor of this junkscience legislation?

And shouldn't we be thankful that the Legislature meets only every other year?

[Straydog]

The cattlemen's association has lobbied against the removal of Savage Rapids Dam.

They, like many others, feel their personal property rights should have standing over community property rights.

Thanks for doing what you can do, Lost Sailor!!

[Born to be Wild]

And I found out, the battle is far from over yet!
This is a process like any other political process and I found out there are other ways we can still fight this.
I will start from the bottom on up and let you know what happens.
This thread might appear from time to time.
Thanks again sailor!
graemlins/applause.gif graemlins/applause.gif

[lost_sailor]

OK, the hearing was this morning. I was early, so I was first on the list.

There was quite a bit of testimony in opposition, and a feeble statement of support from the Cattleman's lobby - "people want fish, so, let's give 'em fish" duhhhhhhhhh

Having stewed over this for weeks, I probably appeared a bit angry - I have a loud voice and they didn't like the suggestion that they weren't "qualified" to make fishery management policy. Kruse was not listening, rarely in the room. Kropf heard what he wanted to hear. Jenson has that geezer-eye-twitch thing going on ... oh well we'll see what happens. Here's my schtick:

Representative Jenson, members of the committee:

Good morning. For the record, my name is [lost_sailor, I've been away too long at sea] I am not representing any organization today, but I know I am not alone. I am a licensed sport angler, a registered voter and a lifelong resident of Oregon.

Two years ago I spoke in opposition to the same bills, and I am back again. I am opposed to House Bills 2459 and 2460. I cannot guess what has motivated this proposal, but I'm quite certain it isn't a deep concern for the health of Oregon's fisheries. It seems very much like an attempt to build a loophole in the legal protection for endangered and threatened species.

I do not believe it is appropriate for the legislature to dictate fisheries management policy to this degree. Policy at this level should be left to the Department of Fish and Wildlife, and should be based on biological research rather than political concerns. Fisheries management in Oregon is a very, very complex undertaking. I consider myself fairly well informed on the topic of wild versus hatchery fish, but I am by no means an expert, by no means qualified to make fish management policy. And unless you have an advanced degree in Biology and at least ten years of practical experience in fisheries management, I don't consider you qualified either.

I believe that this proposed statute would be detrimental to our threatened native fish populations. Hatchery production is not the solution to the wild fish crisis. An endangered species that depends on hatchery budgets is endangered indeed. We need to continue to work towards restoring and protecting habitat in order to enable genuine wild fish populations to become self-sustaining. The Department of Fish and Wildlife has a very difficult mission and is doing excellent work toward restoring wild fish while at the same time using hatcheries to provide harvest opportunities for commercial and recreational anglers. The native broodstock steelhead programs on the Wilson and Nestucca rivers are an example of how the agency is already fulfilling the intent of these bills without a legislative mandate. Good decisions about fisheries management need to be made watershed by watershed, even stream by stream, and need to be flexible enough to accommodate changing environmental conditions. Dictating this statewide policy that would affect every species of fish raised in Oregon hatcheries is simply wrong.

This is a very complicated issue, and I know there are a wide variety of opinions. My opinion is that wild fish are not raised by humans in hatcheries, and that the survival and enhancement of naturally-reproducing wild fish populations should be our highest priority for fisheries management. Please look at the big picture and ask yourself if improving the profit margin of one generation of humans is worth the extinction of animals that have lived in Oregon waters for thousands and thousands of years. Please don't spend any more of our time on this misguided idea. There is much more critical work for you to do.

Thank you for this opportunity to participate, and I would try to respond to any questions you may have.

[MooseTurd]

Did they have any questions following your testimony (which was excellent BTW)?

[Born to be Wild]

Very, very good lost sailor. graemlins/applause.gif
You did an excelent job representing "us" that believe in the importance of "truly" wild fish.
I thank you very much for what you did.
Wished I could have been there myself.
I almost went, and will kick myself for not making the trip.
Hopefully you and others like you made the difference.

Do you know if any other ifisher's had the opportunity to make the meeting?

Thanks again. Excellent job.
It's good to see so many ifisher's on this site that have so much knowledge on hatchery and wild fish and ears to hear.

Dan

[Point-of-Sale Clerk]

Lost_Sailor

I for one appreciate you taking the time and making your feelings known. The only thing I find troubling with your statement to the committee is that it was not authored by me… It is as though you expressed my exact thoughts regarding this issue. :bowdown: My hope is that cooler, more responsible heads will prevail in this issue… you know, like yours graemlins/applause.gif graemlins/applause.gif


Regards

*** Clerk

[lost_sailor]

Aw, gawrsh ... you're all too kind - I just kind of feel like I'm doing what I have to do. I'm afraid my comments were delivered with a bit too much passion, but , hey, I care. A lot. Even Oregon Trout and Trout Unlimited did not come across as "anti-hatchery" like some might expect.

My impression was that there's a LOT of stuff going on behind the scenes, which of course is business as usual at the Capitol. I feel pretty helpless there, maybe if I just cut my hair and get a tailored suit I can sneak into the Good Ol' Boy club.

Everyone should visit the legislature, just to see the bozos that they are electing.
I'm testified-out, I plan to hit the river in search of hatchery or wild fish. Preferably hatchery!! BONK BONK ... on the head!

[Born to be Wild]

Bonk, Bonk :laugh: