dam haters, please read this.

[barnettm]

Avid dam haters, could you please explain how, given the presence of all these evil dams, the Columbia River system produced record steelhead and salmon runs over the last two years? Could you also explain how an avid Columbia River fisherman such as "FEAR NO FISH" could catch and release over 150 steelhead in one season, most of them right above one of these monstrous dams (ie, McNary). Further, do you think this feat could be done on any of the undammed rivers of Western Oregon or Washington???

Dams allow fishery managers to accurately measure fish passage and plan seasons. The dams also control the flow of water, and so there is no more loss of smolts and eggs via flooding.

A good example of using dams to manage fisheries is the Hanford Reach Fall Chinook run. This stretch of river is carefully controlled so as to provide just the right amount of water at key times in the spawning/out-migration cycle. What is the result? A successful fishery comprised entirely of naturally spawning fish. So, every one of you who caught an "upriver bright" in last year's fall chinook fishery can thank Priest Rapids Dam for properly incubating your fish 4 years ago.

This same argument also applies to the Snake River and Clearwater River. The present day steelhead runs are half again as large as the runs were prior to dam construction. This statement is known true because the only way a Snake River fish can get to the ocean is via the Columbia River and they had Coulmbia River fish counting facilities in place both before and after the Snake River Dams were built. So the notion that removing the dams would cause a tremendous growth in fish population is simply without foundation

It is the hatcheries who make the fish in most of these situations. But it is the dams who provide the revenue and control the water.

[dawhunt]

How did all those salmon and steelhead survive in the thousands, all those years before ANY dams were built and hatchery's arrived.It must have been a miracle. http://www.gamers-forums.com/smilies/ups/icis/ices_angel_g.gif
Bob

[ 02-01-2003, 06:48 PM: Message edited by: dawhunt ]

[WildHawg]

I'd love to shred the majority of your post, but I just don't have the energy.
I will however ask you a question. Name one stretch, besides Hanford Reach on the mainstem Columbia, that is free flowing, and accessible to fish--you got it, there is none.
Priest Rapids didn't provide those fish for us--nature and the hatcheries did. Gee, a free flowing stretch of water that fish spawn in graemlins/dork.gif , what a novel idea!
Prior to the commercial canneries, dams, and other fishkillers, and despite a rather large Native fishery, the Columbia kicked out between 10 and 16 million anadromous salmon and steelies every year. Never before or since has any river in the world rivalled these numbers (National Resource Council:1996).
Your braggin' about 1.5-2 million, the majority (over 90%) of which are hatchery stock???
The greatest wild salmon and steelhead river in the world was ***** by the commercial canneries (beginning in 1866), then strangled by dams (Bonneville first in 1938) that created ponds where free flowing rivers once raged, and meat grinders (turbines) through which the smolts were forced to pass.
No releases from the dams could imitate the free flowing Columbia in the spring--and somehow, the water was right, annually, for miilions of pairs of fish to spawn (the majority in tributaries) and return in 2-5 years as adults.
By your logic. Sockeye should be thriving, as they spawn primarily in lakes. After all, that is what the Columbia, save Hanford Reach, has become.

[AnglersRental]

From a link First Light Bite posted

"Bonneville Dam, completed in 1938, included adult fish passage facilities only after public outcry which included a petition drive initiated by members of the Columbia River Fishermen’s Protective Union. Grand Coulee Dam, completed in 1941, was built without fish passage, effectively eliminating the upper third of the Columbia River as spawning habitat. Despite well-intended efforts by fishery biologists to transfer the upper river runs to tributaries of the Columbia below Grand Coulee, and to substitute hatchery rearing for natural spawning habitat, little was known at the time about the life cycles of some of the species that once spawned in the upper reaches of the river. Most notably, the completion of Grand Coulee Dam doomed the magnificent run of giant Royal chinook which for thousand of years had spawned above upper Arrow Lake in British Columbia. Known colloquially as “June Hogs”, these fish averaged over fifty pounds, and had been the mainstay of the Columbia River commercial fishery for many years. The June Hogs disappeared forever in the late 1940s."

UG

[HOGTIDE]

Whoa...this has been a truly enlightening day on the net! First I found out that gillnets help fish runs. Now I know that dams increase fish runs. Next thing you know, I'll hear that oil and pollutants in the Willamette help escapement because it makes the water slipperier so the fish can swim upstream with less stress!

OK, I'll quit being a smart guy for a moment. I personally don't think anyone here is a dam hater. I loooove long hot showers and all the good stuff electricity provides for us every second of the day. I believe that cheap hydro-power will be the secret to PNW economic success in the future. But few people, if any will deny the catastrophic impact dams have had on the andromous species here at home.

Maybe one of the most enlightening lectures of my life was given a year ago by Jim Lackatowich a fish biologist/ historian, as he documented the decline of Columbia River salmon runs. His graphs tell a rather clear story of the impact of commercial fishing, combined with the stacking of dams up the Columbia and into the watershed areas. the correlations and stats paint a very clear picture.

If you ever get the chance to hear him speak, take the opportunity. He doesn't support anyones agenda, nor does he suggest a punitive response to any one group. He simply lines out the historical story and facts about the decline of salmon.

[Born to Fish]

Hey Mojo.....wish I could see your face if you find and read this thread.

You can thank the dam-builders and people who support them like "barnettm" for those great salmon and steelhead runs you've got on the Snake River south of Mountain Home, Idaho. graemlins/stupid.gif Oh, those runs don't exist? I wonder why?.....maybe crappie and smallie predation overwhelming these slime rockets. :grin:

As the old saying goes, "Ignorance is bliss"! :shrug:

[MarlinMark]

I think Ugly Green quoted it the best. Pretty simple math.

Mark

[AnglersRental]

Hogtide.. I never said gillnets help fish runs, that would be silly.

I was quite clear that gillnets help sportfishing. There is a world of difference. I stand by that, however, if you want to argue the point a bit, come on over to the other thread and jump in. The water is hot. :wink:

UG

[KingFisher85]

Boy oh boy, look what happens when our rivers get blown out :hoboy:


Did you guys know that oil and pollutants in the Willamette help escapement because it makes the water slipperier so the fish can swim upstream with less stress! :grin: :grin:

[Trick]

LMAO.....Hog, you kill me! graemlins/applause.gif

[Straydog]

Barnettm,

It is very easy to answer your first two questions: Hatcheries.

The answer to your second question is easy too: No.

The Columbia being the largest river system in Oregon can sustain more fish, hatchery or wild, due simply to its size.

Any other questions?

[Keta]

Dog,
When are they going to get your favorite dam out of the river? I could do it in two days :grin:

[Straydog]

We are still making progress........... just got another $250K appropriated to continue pump engineering last week.

Hopefully Smith and Wyden will reintroduce the major funding bill in the next few weeks.

If I don't die prematurely it WILL happen in my lifetime. Actually the consent decree states
GPID is to stop using it in 2005 with the option of a one year extension.

If you get bored and need something to do for a couple of days I will never say a word. :wink: :grin:

[ 02-01-2003, 10:03 PM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

[Keta]

K :shocked:

[BuKuBass]

"This same agruement applies to the Snake River and the Clearwater River. The present day (sic) steelhead runs are half again as large as the runs were prior to dam construction."...barnettum
Apparently the runs were once two-thirds of zero for since the Hell's Canyon dam has been built there are no longer any runs above it. That dam removed an area of slamon and steelhead habitat larger than the entire state of Oregon.

[MooseTurd]

"Avid dam haters, could you please explain how, given the presence of all these evil dams, the Columbia River system produced record steelhead and salmon runs over the last two years?"

Hatcheries, ideal flows during spring smolt migrations and ideal ocean conditions - none of which is sustainable indefinitely.

[Irie1]

TWO WORDS: FISH BARGES

[lost_sailor]

"RECORD" runs ? ? ?

For what time period?

Those runs were a fraction of what once was.

Right, the answer is fish barges, millions and millions of dollars, and good ocean conditions that come and go.

I'm not advocating taking out any major dams, because as far as sources of electricity they are one of the better options.

[Stz ll]

I agree with lost sailor. Before the dams the Coulmbia had salmon and steelhead returning in numbers around 15 or 16 million.

Now 1.5 to 2 million is a record run? :laugh:

Maybe since the dams were built. :depressed:

[Hogmaster]

An observation here...

barnettm has made no post since his original.

He has gotten the opportunity for some education, which if he did some research prior to posting would have likely resulted in not posting the way it was.

Often times it is easy to draw conclusions prior to looking at all the relavent data. To compare the impact of dams, one needs to look at the data before the dams as these posts are highlighting.

There are a number of reasons that the returns have been comparitively good (but only in post-dam terms) the last few years.

This is why the "sensational" nature of newspaper (in particular) headlines can create so much in the way of misinformation. The big bold banners of "Record Returns" can be very misleading. Usually the content points out more detail (like "compared to") but too many people miss the details.

Try to be better through education, not emotion.

I'd like to give barnettm the benefit of the doubt here, and suggest that he not get piled on too much. I bet he has a better understanding of what the dams have done. If not, please do some additional research!

:cheers:

[uey89]

:sick: Tis topic is making me sick! I cannot believe that a few of you think the Gill nets help the fishery. Just take a drive down the Gorge and take a look at the maze the fish have to go through. And then instead of fishing you can go to the local marina and buy your fish from the Indians. Tha dams are an important element to our economy. All of us enjoy the cheap power.
If we realy want to look at fis returns lest start with smolt and the Caspian turns. It has been proven those fish take as many as 30%of all returns to the ocean. The Pike minnow program has helped and maybee we need to dispatch some of these protected birds.

[KingFisher85]

I say we have a big shoot on Caspian turns :shocked: . They are not even native to this area. They come from California. Why are we protecting some non native :mad: species? :whazzup: graemlins/stupid.gif

[rob allen]

Dam advocates = salmon haters. PERIOD!!!!! before the dams there were 10- 16 million salmon/ steelhead every year now on a good year we are at 1 million.. How anyone can say that dams have been good for salmon is beyond me, Having said that i am not for the removal of the main stem columbia dams. I am however for ther removal of all tributary dams.
Not only do they destroy salmon habitat they also encourage channelization which in turns encourages people to build in the flood plain which creates more channelization..
We fishermen are crapping on ourselves and our cause by not taking habitat issues seriously including dams.
Like it or not hatcheryes have not and cannot provide stable reliable of runs to fish for if there is a future for our fishing it is wild fish in good habitat.

[garyk]

You don't have to 'hate' dams, in order to advocate for a better way of doing things.

We've applied 1940's industrial model technology to the Columbia, and seen the results.

Now the question is, are we smart enough to do better?

I don't have to hate dams (or anything else) in order to love healthy rivers!

[SandySteel]

Heck of a way to get introduced to a community Barnettm. After 6 posts you put in a pot stirring post with the sole design to bait people. Nice job!

The fact of the matter is with the upper snake dams there is no flood protection from them and the electricity they produce is miniscule compared with their real purpose. Shipping. How insane is it that Lewiston Idaho is actually a real ocean port? Why not use the railroads which line the Columbia? One easy answer; the profits for the farmers in Idaho and Montana.

The economic benefit from enhancing the fisheries for both users upriver and downriver would be enormous.

Prediction: With the low water years and the lack of spill (4 years ago spills were allowed due to excess water) this last year the runs we will be seeing in the next two years will be skimpy if nonexistant. Thanks Lewiston!

[Mojo]

SandySteel,
I agree it is rediculuous for Lewiston (originally a railroad town) to be a seaport. Actually it would be cheaper to ship grain by rail than barge, if you take out the Federal Subsidies of the barge industry and the farmers for using it.

[Straydog]

Sandysteel,

Fishing is the not the only recreational opportunities that could be greatly enhanced on the Snake.

Free flowing river recreation is generally much greater than flat water recreation.

[Flatfish]

I am far from an educated redneck. So will someone please answer this-The Columbia had returns of 10-16 million salmon a year. Was this before the white man came here. Or before the dams were built and AFTER white man came here?

If it was before whites arrived, what was the return after the white man got here( when I say that I mean post 1856 settlement) but before the dams were built?When was the 1st hydroelectric dam built on the big river?

Like it or not white men have had an impact on the nature of America. the dams are only one of these. I understand that dams are hard on fish populations. But necessary in my opinion.

I have read a bit about the bison hunters. they looked at them like a crop. They figured they would start in North Dakota, work South to Texas, and the travel north all the way to North Dakota and start all over again. Just like a farmer harvesting wheat every season. It took 10 years or so to work from North to South. they had no idea of what they had done. The journals I read showed the great dissapiontment of the hunters. They were sad. Not because of the money. But for the bison.

I have not read much of the commercial fisherman during the pre 1900 hayday on the lower river. I wonder if they felt the same. Any suggestions of a good book or 2?

Mark and the dog.

[Steelie Ben]

Ya know, back when I graduated from HS we were required to do a research paper before we could graduate, it was called our Senior Project. I took almost three months to complete due to the massive amount of research involved, we also had to put in volenteer time relating to our project. I did my project on the columbia river dams and their effect of salmon and steelhead populations. Most of the major points have already been made by members of this wonderful board but there are a few that have been missed. Smolt migrating down stream have to contend with not just the turbines, terns, pikeminnow ect... if by chance they are fortunate enough to make it through all of these hazards and go down a spillway they are vunerable to another predator. Its called Nitrogen, see when the NMFS tells the CORPS to spill water to aid in smolt migration it creats massive amounts of Nitrogen below the spillway, this is toxic to smolt. Countless thousands of outmigrating smolt have been killed by this phenomena caused by man. I could go on and on for pages about how dams have effected our salmon runs but the simple fact of it is, it doesn't do any good. I don't see anywhere in the near future the removal of major dams, we are too dependant. All you astrophycisist(sp.) need to get to work on an alternate power source and then maybe we can talk about it. I hope all of you dam advocates take a little more time to research your post before laying in like you know it all. Man in must be nice to be oblivious.
:grin: SB

[Mojo]

Dean,
GRRRRRRR! graemlins/berry.gif :mad: graemlins/berry.gif

I'm glad to see the record runs are here. I personally saw the 18 million salmon that spawned in Idaho last year. Oops wait they didn't. Apparently only 12,032 fall chinook crossed Lower Granite last fall . This compares to the 6 million that used to spawn in the mainstem Clearwater, Salmon, Snake. As well as Payette, Weiser, Boise, Owyhee, Malhuer, Bruneau, Jarbidge, and countless other rivers in Idaho and Eastern Oregon that now are completely blocked and have no anadromous fisheries.

Gimmee a break! You are insulting our intelligence.

Oops falling off my soapbox again....CRASH!

[ 02-03-2003, 12:06 PM: Message edited by: Mojo ]

[WildHawg]

Mark and best friend,
In answer to Q1.--10 or 11-16 million anadromous salmon and steelhead historically, ie. when European/Americans arrived. This is an estimate of how many returned on average, not escapement. Native Americans had an impact on these numbers too.
For a great read check out Nch'I-Wana: The Big River, By Eugene Hunn. An excellent resource for Columbia River Native and European historical impacts.
These numbers would have held true until the arrival of the first commercial salmon canners in 1866.
Historically, the Columbia River runs were huge by any standard. Catches in the late 1800's reached 43 million pounds. Peak catches might have been as high as 3-4 milllion fish of all species. From one cannery and 2 gill net boats in 1866, the Columbia River Fishery grew to 40 canneries in the early 1900's.
The Fishwheel, introduced in 1879, wreaked even more havoc--as they caught more salmon than any other method. They were outlawed in Oregon in 1926, and 1935 in Washington.
I doubt they ever thought that salmon runs could end, or that their impact was all that huge until the damage was already done. Kind of like your Bison hunter example, or the Passenger Pigeon.
Did people lament the passing of the great runs? Of course, but with the advent of the first dam, Bonneville in 1938, and especially Grand Coulee, which blocked all upstream passage to over 1000 miles of spawning territory, plus all the environmental damage early industry had created, combined with overfishing, and many other factors, it was too late to ever recreate the kind of fishery that once existed, despite millions of hatchery fish plantings.
For a read on commercial impacts, check out "Fishwheels of the Columbia", can't remember the author.
Thanks for askin'

[WildHawg]

Hey Barnettm,
You come here light a fire under us, then just sit back and watch us burn?? What are ya, some kind of internet arsonist?
Have we changed your mind yet? If not why?
C'mon boy, show us ya got cajones and reply.