Endangered Lamprey Eels?

[skein]

Did I hear right? A blurb on the news as I was driving home said that "environmentalists had opened a new front by asking that the lamprey eel be added to the endangered species list..."

What's next, tapeworms?

Skein

[Keta]

Normaly I would agree with you here but they're right about the declining numbers of lamprey

[garyk]

The role of lamprey adults and larvae in the river system; the unknown reasons for their decline; and their relationship to salmon is actually a very interesting question.

Like salmon, the adult eels die after spawning and release those nutrients gained from the ocean into the river system.

All these critters are involved in a very complex relationship and shouldn't be dismissed just 'cause they don't look purty :wink:

[Land Shark]

I was talking to a fellow fisherman that told me that Eel was illegal to use for Sturgeon bait this year? I have not checked the synopsis yet but this post reminded me about that conversation.

[STGRule]

Okay, one more time....
Let's say this all together out loud.
Lamprey are not eels.
Lamprey are not eels.
Lamprey are not eels.
:wink: :wink: :wink:

[skein]

Ohmygosh, STGRule, you're right! I didn't know they were a fish, not an eel. I really didn't.

But should we fret about their decline? I remember years ago when the Great Lakes were reeling (no pun intended) under the predatory effects of the lamprey. A once mighty fishery was decimated by this parasite.

Now the Great Lakes has rebounded and who can count the $$$ that flow into the economy because of that fishery. Who can count the $$$ that was spent bringing that monster under control.

Here's a quote from Environmental RouteNet:

Harmful Non-native Species Issues for Congress VII - April 1999.

The annual cost of international control programs for sea lamprey in the Great Lakes drainage is approximately $10 million to $15 million. <font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">Should I now ring my hands that they are in decline? Nope, not me. I may be wrong, but I won't be sorry to see them a little more scarce in our rivers.

Skein

[STGRule]

Skein: Eels are fish. Lamprey are fish. Lamprey are not eels. It is bad that they are in decline. This is the west coast, not the Great Lakes.

[Keta]

The lamprey in the Great Lakes were not indigenous. They got around Niagra Falls through the navigation locks.

[Thumper]

This is about the silliest thing I have ever heard. We spend millions of dollars to control their numbers, thereby protecting salmonids, and a bunch of *******' idiots want to protect them. Such stupidity!

[Keta]

Thumper,
I don't have time right now and tomorow I have to go to Roseburg to see a doctor but when I get back I'll post some links that might change your mind about lamprey. I know it changed mine. They are a vital part of the salmon life cycle.

[GutshotApe]

Originally posted by Thumper:
This is about the silliest thing I have ever heard. We spend millions of dollars to control their numbers, thereby protecting salmonids, and a bunch of *******' idiots want to protect them. Such stupidity! <font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">Thumper - We don't spend ANY money to control lamprey numbers.......... :shrug:

[Thumper]

Keta --- I look forward to your post tomorrow. Grrr.

[Thumper]

Gut --- I've seen the massive electric weirs that were used on the Great Lakes and the St. Lawrence Seaway, which did indeed cost millions of dollars, in the hopes of controlling the predation of the lampreys in that part of the country. It worked, but the cost was huge. Believe me, we don't want that problem here.

[GutshotApe]

Yeah, but the Great Lakes lampreys were exotics - allowed access above Niagara Falls by the Welland Canal. They wreaked havoc on an ecosystem that had evolved without lampreys.

Here, our species of lampreys evolved with salmon & trout and don't appear to have anywhere near the same negative effects. Their numbers are way down from past levels but they never were so abundant that their parasitism was a big factor in fish runs.

[UmpquaSpecial]

For those interested in the petition to federally list several species of lamprey in Oregon, Washington, California and Idaho, here's a link to the Oregon Natural Resources Council's press release regarding the petition, along with some good lamprey photos and the pdf. version of the petition itself. Interesting reading.
http://www.onrc.org/info/lamprey/
Chris

[Fast Water]

I just read a few articles on the Pacific Lamprey and I was suprised to find out that the parasitic (feeding) relationship with other amimals is almost exclusively limited to their adult phase while in the ocean.

I always thought they fed while in the rivers as well.

Here is a link to one of the papers. (http://www.psmfc.org/habitat/edu_lamprey_fact.html)

:smile:

[Straydog]

Skein, Thumper,

Like it or don't, there is a reason all of these critters co-existed in their natural habitats for thousands of years.

Whether one chooses to believe in creationism or evolution, there is a reason Lamprey were in our rivers with Salmon and Steelhead.

Just as there is a reason these critters sustained themselves in healthy waterways created by healthy watersheds absent natural barriors that impacted or stopped migration.

Like it or not, there is a very complex system that these fish thrived on for years and we have altered that.

To what extent and to what end is being learned everyday.

In the big picture, we have been on this planet such a short time, we really don't know all of the implications of all of the critters and their interaction, even the tapeworms. :wink:

[skein]

I stand corrected. Obviously I didn't (don't) know as much about the situation as I thought I did. (Common occurance)

I remember as a kid following the devastation they caused in the Great Lakes and mentally lumped them all into one big pot. I didn't know they were exotics over there but natives over here. They were Lampreys. Evil, fish-killin' bloodsuckers. All of 'em.

Now I know better. They aren't even eels. They don't kill salmon. They spawn and die, thereby feeding the ecosystem. It's been a long night.

Uh.... anybody know the correct technique for rescusitating one if I catch it?

Skein - older, wiser, more humble.

[Grantspastor]

Skein...the only way they can be revived is mouth-to-mouth resuscitation

[skein]

Man, GP, it don't look like they're gonna make it! :hoboy:

....and I can't even spell resuscitation.

Skein :grin:

[Grantspastor]

I know how you feel Skein. It's like the guy who got bitten in the rear end by a rattlesnake. His friend said "you're gonna die".

[Keta]

I'd rather kiss a snake :smile:

[Thumper]

OK, I feel all betta about this. I'm going out to buy a lamprey a drink..........

[Chum King]

A few more fun facts to throw into the pot on this discussion:
* Lampreys are not only a fish, but they are in an entirely separate order: Agnatha (jawless fishes). If you want to study a really disgusting member of this order, look at the Hagfish also known as the slime eel.
* Eels are also fish.
* There is more than one species of lamprey. The species that invaded the Great Lakes is not a species that is native to the West Coast.
* We have several species of lamprey in Oregon. Only the Pacific lamprey (Lampetra tridentata) has a predatory/parasitic link to salmon, and as previously mentioned, it is only in the adult stage.
* Pacific salmon in the Great Lakes are also not native. The difference is that we prefer salmon over lampreys, and we purposefully introduced the salmon into the lakes, while the lamprey were a mistake.
* Native Americans used (and some still do) the lamprey as a source of food. They are high in oil content.

[skein]

Thumper,

Buy me a drink instead. I need to get the taste out of my mouth from resuscitating one of the little beauties.

Skein

[Bill Monroe]

Actually, the beauty of reviving lamprey populations runs deeper than the thin skins of enviro whackos/rednecks...(not suggesting any of us are, by the way)

Think about it for a minut...lampreys require cold, clear waters that governments would have to provide. Habitat, habitat, habitat..

and no, they don't eat fish in freshwater, I don't think, although there is a small brook lamprey that does. I don't believe they're that numerous...as I recall, Pacific lamprey alevins (youngsters) burrow into the bottom to hide before heading to sea.

a few years back, while shocking the last few fish for our Willamette pollution series, we saw a few small ones in a few feet of water off Ross Island, on the east channel.

cold, clear water...habitat, habitat, habitat...

[Chukrchaser]

Not to sound like a "tree-hugging environmental whacko" -- BUT -- the loss of any species -- especially what may turn into an indicator species is a loss to all -- If for no other reason than the more we lose the more we (and others) become numb to the tragedy. (Sage rats are excluded from the afore mentioned loss :wink: )

Besides, if they want to protect the lamprey that requires the same type of habitat that Salmonoids do -- can this really be a bad thing?? :shrug:

[Straydog]

What Bill and others are saying is right on............

Also, as I understand it, baby Lamprey provide food for baby fish.

Here is a decent article about them.

Lamprey Protection - MM Tribune (http://www.mailtribune.com/archive/2003/0129/local/stories/03local.htm)

[ET]

This is a great thread. I too grew up hearing about the Great Lakes Lamprey problems. Very interesting when you hear about the positive attributes of such an ugly(in my eyes) creature.

[Paddlefish]

Chukrchaser:

quote: " . . . what may turn into an indicator species . . ." Bingo. graemlins/applause.gif (Fool canaries weren't mining any coal anyway! :wink: )

Can we all sing together now: "We don't know what we've got til it's gone."

I just completed the book "Water: The Fate of Our Most Precious Resource," by Marq de Villiers.

:shocked: :shocked:

It's full of worldwide horror stories of otherwise well-intentioned efforts to irrigate, drink, dam, borrow, electrify, control, cool, re-distribute and otherwise make use of the world's water supplies, many of which had unforeseen but often permanent, negative results.

While it's easy to brand those green folks as "extremist alarmists," too often in the past we've later had to say, "Dang, they were right!"

Read up on some of the horror stories --- and the Columbia's dams aren't nearly the worst --- and you'll likely become more reactionary yourself. (And then you'll go home and renew your subscription to "Birth Control Monthly.") :grin:

Oh, and baby lampreys as a salmonid food source? Now we know why those Woolly Buggers and Bunny Leeches work so well!

[Mojo]

I remember seeing them in the ladders at Bonneville as a kid, and asking my dad why they were letting them through. Dad said the sturgeon gotta eat too. They do make great bait.

The bigger picture is (as Bill pointed out) water quality, and stream habitat. What's good for the goose (lamprey) is good for the gander (salmon).

[1pump]

Didn't there used to be a cottage industry that harvested lampreys at Willamette Falls? Yick............ :sick:

[bigfishon]

If the government had to improve the eco system for these critters it would be improved for all others also. Any improvment we can get on these river systems should be greatly appreciated no mater how or why we get them. Go team green!!!

:cheers:

[Hoosier Daddy]

Historically, large numbers of lamprey juveniles probably provided some protection for salmon smolts from predation as well. Lots of critters would eat lamprey, and if there are enough of them, they might have left more salmon alone. Now that there aren't very many of them left, the salmon is the snack of choice for darned near every predator.

Besides, lamprey are kinda cute.

[Keta]

Bill M,
There are also several freshwater lamprey species in the Klamath Basin, including the Miller Lake Lamprey.

[GutshotApe]

Keta - The Miller Lake lamprey, an indigenous species known only from Miller Lk, were killed off by ODFW's predecessor, the Oregon Fish Comm., with rotenone back in the early 1950s to make the lake safe for kokanee and for years everyone thought the small eels (yes :wink: , I know they're not really eels) were extinct. But I heard about 3 or 4 years ago that a researcher found some in Miller Creek a short distance downstream from the lake below a falls. Don't know the current status - if they are still there, if anyone wants to put them back in Miller Lk, or what? :whazzup:

[Keta]

GSA,
THEIR BACK! They didn't get them all and they are starting to come back.

ODF&G (http://www.dfw.state.or.us/public/NewsArc/2002News/July/071502enews.htm)

[GutshotApe]

Yeah but are they back in the lake?

[Keta]

I thought I read that they were. I might be wrong, it was when I was still in Alaska and didn't care much about Klamath County.

[Paddlefish]

Yeah, 1pump, there was.

(And centuries of Native American food gathering the same way there as well.)

Talk about a fun job!! :shocked:

And standing directly under Willamette Falls to do it too!

[Diehard D]

I was trying to buy lamprey in the tri-cities area last year and some of the suppliers (this coming straight from the suppliers mouth, ie a distributor from Yakima, they are endangered and are not allowed to be distributed commercially unless the native americans are selling them. I later found this to be completely false. Be careful what suppliers tell you.

[Mark Vickers]

I'd agree with Bill Monroe on this one...

It seems that if they want to list the lamprey as endangered on our rivers, maybe that'd mean there would be more governmental pressure to keep our rivers clean, which in turn is good for just about every other species out there like salmon, steelhead, smelt, and sturgeon (the ones we all like talking about.)

[GutshotApe]

I posted this sunday but it was soon off the page, so, in case anyone's interested:

Saturday night two friends & I were smelt dipping in the Cowlitz at the new concrete bridge at Kelso and we dipped up an adult lamprey. Nobody noticed it when the net was dumped in the bucket.....but when we were packing up we noticed this snake-like apparition rearing its head & upper body out of the bucket......in the dim light, it looked sort of :shocked: spooky!!! We had a quick discussioned about lampreys and decided that even though they make excellent sturgeon bait we'd toss it back...so we did.

How many lampreys run up the Cowlitz? Are they really an Endangered Species candidate? :whazzup:

[Wak]

We got one on Sunday also. Is this common?

[Lingchaser]

I have noticed that the bait shops in this area have been selling another eel other that the lamprey. It's mouth is on the very front of it's head where the lamprey's is on the bottom. My question is has anyone really tried the eel that they are selling now for sturgeon or striper? I like using eel because it is tough as nails and does get sturgeon. Maybe a guy could doctor the new stuff up and make it work even though it's not the same species. And if that doesn't fly we still have our shrimp baits.
Tight lines. Gary

[Hoosier Daddy]

sounds like hagfish....???

[FISH EYED FOOL]

Interesting chat. I forgot all about the eels.I grew up around the town of gales creek and when I was kid I remember seeing hundreds of the black ugly things on the bottom of gales creek every summer. they scared me enough that I would not swimm inthe creek. so what is the story why did they decline. now that I think about it I have not seen a eel in that creek for over 20 years about the same time the steelhead and samon runs quit coming up here. interesting'

[Wood N' Fish]

Another critter we will be hearing more about, is the fresh water clam. There is some movement nationally to find out how many species exist nad how many are left? It is thought that some species are probably extinct, as there is very little known about their life-history and abundance. It's nice to see science looking at the environment in a broader sence.

[Crashin' Bait]

Aren't freshwater clam shells used in the cultured pearl industry?

[Wood N' Fish]

Hey CB, You think we'll be also be hearing from a new group, like for example, named "Oregon Clam"
:shocked: :rolleyes: graemlins/icon_argue.gif :hoboy: :hoboy:

[BuKuBass]

Guess what "imitation crabmeat" is made from? Hagfish aka "underwater buzzard".

[Crashin' Bait]

I thought imitation crab was made out of Pacific hake or whiting? It's also called "surimi" in the fishing industry.

Hehehe, Oregon Clam! Get-outa-hea! :rolleyes: :grin:

[ 05-12-2003, 09:46 PM: Message edited by: Crashin' Bait ]

[AuntyM]

Well, I like to practice C&R of freshwater clams even BEFORE it's mandated. :grin:

We safely released this monster while fishing the Chehalis. He grabbed my lead whilst we were boondoggin.

http://www.steelheader.net/fishimages/IM000662.jpg
Put up a pretty good fight too!

[Straydog]

Originally posted by FISH EYED FOOL:
Interesting chat. I forgot all about the eels.I grew up around the town of gales creek and when I was kid I remember seeing hundreds of the black ugly things on the bottom of gales creek every summer. they scared me enough that I would not swimm inthe creek. so what is the story why did they decline. now that I think about it I have not seen a eel in that creek for over 20 years about the same time the steelhead and samon runs quit coming up here. interesting' <font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Are you talking the Gales Creek near Azalea?

If so, is the timing anywhere near the completion of Galeville Dam? I can't remember when that was finished.

I know they seem to be about gone in the Rogue system compared to what it was when I was a kid in the late '50's and 60's.

[Hoosier Daddy]

Imitation Krab meat is NOT made from hagfish. It's hake (pacific whiting). I don't like it, but I know it's NOT HAGFISH....

[Keta]

BuKu,
Guess what "imitation crabmeat" is made from? Hagfish aka "underwater buzzard".
<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">HAGFISH LINK (http://oceanlink.island.net/oinfo/hagfish/hagfish.html)

CB,
Close but no cigar. POLLOCK (http://www.unisea.com/prod_surimi.htm)

Dog,
No the dam didn’t do it. The decline of the lamprey is due to insecticide and herbicide use on timberland.

[FISH EYED FOOL]

Originally posted by Straydog:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Originally posted by FISH EYED FOOL:
Interesting chat. I forgot all about the eels.I grew up around the town of gales creek and when I was kid I remember seeing hundreds of the black ugly things on the bottom of gales creek every summer. they scared me enough that I would not swimm inthe creek. so what is the story why did they decline. now that I think about it I have not seen a eel in that creek for over 20 years about the same time the steelhead and samon runs quit coming up here. interesting' <font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Are you talking the Gales Creek near Azalea?

If so, is the timing anywhere near the completion of Galeville Dam? I can't remember when that was finished.

I know they seem to be about gone in the Rogue system compared to what it was when I was a kid in the late '50's and 60's. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">No, it's the Gales Creek in between Tillamook and Forest Grove. There is no dams, but they had to swim up the Columbia via Willamette River, via Tualatin River then to Gales Creek.

[GutshotApe]

Originally posted by Keta:
The decline of the lamprey is due to insecticide and herbicide use on timberland. <font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helvetica">Sorry Keta, I tried to let this pass without comment...but can't. What evidence is there to support that statement? :whazzup:

[garyk]

Keta said - "Dog, No the dam didn’t do it. The decline of the lamprey is due to insecticide and herbicide use on timberland."

Keta, the huge decline in Willamette lamprey from 25 years ago - and the impact of taking this biomass out of the system - is a recurring conversation among my fishing friends. To date, we've only heard speculation about the causes. Did you see a report or something that linked those chemicals to the decline?

[Keta]

GSA and garyk,
I lost the link with the crash but will find it after the halibut fishery this week. The chemicals (ag too) are killing the lamprey in the larval stage.