US appeals court saves our forests.

[speyfly]

Us Appeals Court upholds environmental law regarding roadless areas in our National Forests.

Click here (http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/index.ssf?/xml/story.ssf/html_standard.xsl?/base/front_page/1039784163125120.xml)

Edit:

If you want to display a long url, press the URL button below, paste it into the text box that pops up, and then give it a name.
This keeps the pages from scrolling.
Thanks,
Jen

[ 12-14-2002, 12:41 PM: Message edited by: Jennie@ifish ]

[HeavyMetal BankFisherman]

I am 100% for environmental conservation. But this topic is so blurred it is hard to form a definative opinion to stand by. On the one hand I would like to see everything stay the same with no more development or destruction. On the other hand, I am a dedicated fisherman and want access to the rivers and streams. I do not necessarilly need a road since I am capable of hiking in. No problem with that. But some groups would like to restrict fishing altogether. So while on the surface it seems that I may share the same sentiments of others, some of these same groups want to deny me the right to fish. I can understand that point of view to an extent. Significant measures involving the curtailing of fishing have already taken place when needed. The North Coast Trout fishery for example closed. Maybe a little too late. But I have caught and released many large Cutthroat Trout while fishing for Salmon/Steelhead recently on both the Wilson and Nehalem. That fishery will recover and should be reopened in a few years with perhaps a two fish limit instead of the five that it used to be. And a total of perhaps ten fish a year. Maybe we were all just a little bit greedy in the past.

I do not think any new roads should be built that may have any damaging impact on any streams but I am concerned that a total ban will deny Americans the opportunity to earn a living to feed their families. We are here and no matter what we do we are going to have an impact. We just need to minimize it as much as possible. We need wood, it builds our homes and provides jobs. Ranchers and Farmers need access to water to survive.

Quite a dilema with no end in sight. I imagine these court battles will go on indefinately.

[King13fisher]

Without those roads how are we going to cut those trees.......the same people that lobby for this stuff, lobby to keep us from fishing graemlins/berry.gif

[speyfly]

King13fisher, that's a whooper of a wivestail. Have you noticed that since they have cut back logging, our fisheries are starting to improve? Since when was the logging industry a friend of fisherman? Just something to think about.

[rebell]

Guy's dont get started here. Everyone has there own opinions on how our forests should be managed. There was a extensive thread on this issue just earlier this week.

BUT, speyfly, There are some who need access to our forest for many different reasons. Yes fishing has improved some recently. But it is not just because of limiting peoples access to our forest.

If you really want to improve our fisheries so that we have more fish, try catch and release!

[Straydog]

Rebell,

"Don't get started," just let you get your licks in huh? :hoboy: :grin: :grin:

[ 12-14-2002, 08:38 AM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

[Joe Schwab]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, If you want to see real managed forests with clean watersheds and diverse plantings, that actually produce timber at a profit go look at some private stands.
Our public owned forests are a joke and mostly because they cannot be manged due to frivolous lawsuits by groups that want everything locked up for ????????
Yes I want forests for my grandkids, but I also want schools and services and the economic ability to contnue to live in the Northwest.

[rob allen]

ahh heck i might as well spout off too. Our private forest lands are where the vast majority of the abuse has occurred!!!!!!!

Drive down the coquille,or Alsea Drive Hwy 4 between long view and the coast, drive north of aberdeen on 101. drive the upper Kalama ,The Washougal.. Look at ever square inch of private forest land in Oregon and Washington. It has all been clearcut in the last 100 years. Most of it is growing back in an unhealthy manner ( to thick with no undergrowth).

Quite frankly and to be as blunt as possibe the timber industry can go to hell. It is their own fault we are in the mess we are in today. The have been cutting as fast as they possibly can since they first started. They got their land by paying almost nothing for it . I am quite frankly sick of hearing them whining when they are the ones who cut their own throats. And they are a major factor in why there are so few salmon and steelhead left ESPECIALLY COHO!

It's time for our states to give timber companies their marching orders NOT the other way around as it has been.

The purpose of a forest is to be a forest not to provide rediculously cheap lumber products and paper for mass mailers to send me hundreds of unwanted catalogs on brand new paper!

We have misused our forests in the past.. we have slowed that misuse. Now it's time for common sence to prevail.

[fish_on]

Timber built the NW, you have to have jobs and a career for all. Not everyone wants to work in the Hi-Tech industry that the NW seems to be pushing. These two states are running off manufacturing, timber and any other business that is not PC and it is time to stop. Let's make some roads, put some people to work, that way when the forest is burning from the mismanaged nonloggers and tree sitters we can get to them to put them out. Of course there would be nothing better than a barbecued tree sitter.

[fish_on]

Manufacturing jobs are being lost in America because of people like you!! The cost of production is out of control due in large part to the overbearing environmental restrictions placed on companies. Dig a hole and live in the woods, if you buy gas for your car, read a book, or live in a house you have shown your true hypocrisy. I suppose you think we should get our lumber from other countries, all of our good should be imported what is it out of site out of mind? When you can come up with some real solutions that don't have us all eating grass post that!

[King13fisher]

Speyfly
It was early in the morning....I had to work today couldn't go fishing :depressed: so I spouted off.
I agree there was alot of mismanagement and/or unethical practices, in the past, within the timber industry. I do know that with todays practices both the timber industry and fish / fisherpersons can co-exist.
My remarks were targeted at the over zealous enviromental extremists, that if had it their way, would shut down everything including fishing.

[rob allen]

Fish on you happen to have caught me in a bad mood and i have to say that your argument about hypocricy is no argument at all but plain old dogma... Dogma i have heard a thousand times. Have toy been to a construction site lately? have you seen the piles of waste wood products that don't get recycled?? I am not talking about not logging and not using forest products I am saying we need to become responsible as of yet we are not!!!!!!! Have you the Billions of glossy catalogs printed on brand new paper??? and as far as enviromental regulations. Companies are moving to other countries because they refuse to live under responsible enviromental regulation NOT excessive ones!!
Freightliner has been burrying barrels of toxic wast on theit land for over 30 years this is the kind of company Oregon should kick out entirely not make incentives for them to stay!!!

paying people to not do bad things is WRONG!!!!!! companies should be penalized for the damage they do and thats what our enviromental laws do..

So again i say to any company that doesn't care about us enough to do what is right get the hell out!

[crabbait]

Let's keep this civil and try to remember, you will never change anyones opinion by calling them names or questioning their intelligence. Some people will never change their opinions because they have a vested interest in one side of the arguement or the other.

Personally, I wish we could just move on. I am tired of reading the same old arguement over and over.

Go fishing, crabbing, duck hunting, DO SOMETHING!

[nerta]

rob allen.. do you live in a wood house ? do you use butt wipe ? should we destroy the forests of third world countries where no sustained yeild exists so reality can be avoided? should your access to rivers and forests be denied? do you drive a automobile that uses a oil base fuel? do you eat what you catch, or just ruin there day and turn them loose, one step down the food chain, tired and sore from your selfish pleasure seeking? I live in a wood house and turn my catch into fertilizer, then used wood products to wipe with! I'm also proud of it!!!! You need a reality check. well i'm done venting now thanks for the easy target!

[Keta]

The 9th court, the most over ruled court in the country and the only court to be over ruled 9-0 TWICE!

[SHLEPROCK]

I have made some sawdust in my days and the way I see it is that the greed to make money caused us to over harvest our forests. It seems to me that someone should of been able to do the math on the rate of harvest in the last 40 years and put a handle on it. It was kind of like the gold rush, the good news is that trees regrow but plywood mills will never be the same. I'm not sure how many trees were loaded on ships at Longview or where they were going but I do know that they paid top dollar for them as export grade. Some of the local mills may have been able to use that material and keep some jobs or maybe not, If the locals didn't need them at that time then they should of been left standing! Those veiws are that of just my local area. We already have roads everywhere. As far as the Natioal forests go I think that our wilderness areas are best left alone unless disease control is needed and that may be needed in some areas.

[rob allen]

Shleprock i agree 10,000,000%

and i'll leave the argument at that..

[Keta]

This had nothing to do with wilderness!

[GutshotApe]

rob allen - I agree Oregon and Washington were nicer places to live 30 years ago when the population was 1/2 what it is today. Where did you live 30 years ago? :wink: But if getting rid of as many jobs & people as possible is your goal why not go for the gusto? The Portland/Vancouver area is where the people are - a more rational approach would be to concentrate your efforts on shutting down the urban economy and let the sustainable, resource-based rural economies, which were here first (long before you showed up, and which built the state's infrastructure), continue to exist. :whazzup:

[ 12-14-2002, 07:42 PM: Message edited by: GutshotApe ]

[Green Machine]

Mr. Allen, you may get your wish. The cost of production has dramatically increased over the last decade mainly due to the increase in environmental protection and liability assumed by the timber owner and mills. Yes, I do work for the timber industry, and yes, clearcuts are ugly, but they are the most efficient way of removing timber and equating to a product that is affordable to Americans. Where I am saying you may get your wish is that the Canadians have figured out that the cost of our stumpage is going through the roof, therefore allowing them to dump lumber into our market at a favorable price. We can't compete and a lot of mills are throwing in the towel. So, I guess we could import all of our lumber and save the greastest renewable resource we have. Not many fish left in Canada anymore due to massive clearcuts. :grin:

Green Machine

[SSPey]

Roads are pretty bad for fish, mostly because they produce lots of sediment, and also because they accelerate the number of landslides.

Roads are very efficient and channeling water through ditches, picking up sediment, and delivering it to streams. In logging activities, most of the sediment that reaches streams is attributable directly to the roads. Road building in combination with clearcutting decreases soil stability and increases the occurrence of landslides.

here's some Oregon info:

http://www.4j.lane.edu/partners/eweb/ttr/landslide/logging.html

Many populations of endangered salmonids, like Bull Trout in Montana, exist only in watersheds with the fewest (or no) roads. A plan for true roadless areas is the best chance, because roads continue to produce sediment unless fully decomissioned and allowed to revegetate.

Roads to stop fire? Fire will be with us forever, like it or not. We can't eliminate or beat it, and we need to learn to better live with it. First things first, get isolated houses out of there, and manage the land near homes to reduce damage risk. Roads in the wilderness are not the answer.

[SHLEPROCK]

Green Machine, All the equipment from my last mill job went to Canada.

[Deepslayer]

Why is this B.S. on the fishing board instead of the general discussion board????? :whazzup:

[GutshotApe]

rob allen - Why don't you quit beating around the bush and tell us what you really think? :wink:

[blacktail]

I know, let's start building house out of Tofu!

Mike graemlins/idea.gif :wink:

[riverrat]

no roads, no access is insane....save the land for the granola crunching activists like (tre arrow) or maybe groups like earth first.....be real.....access for firefighters is essential to put out fires.....or should we let the fires burn like yellowstone's fiascal.....no need for paper products...yeah right.....every morning most americans wipe there butts with it, read it and most likley get their granola from a cardboard box.....there is no right answer due to politics and greed, however better managment is essential to all forests and keep the roads open so we all can be stewards of the land.....unlock the gates and let the public have access to big private tracts of land that are used for logging so we can see what managment policies are in place and to make sure that big industry is meeting the standards....replanting and protecting streambeds.....to the right winged environmentalists, get out of the trees find jobs be witnesses to practical and proper forest managment......

[rob allen]

River rat been to yellowstone lately?????

I have! it's green and beautiful.. Forest fires are natural and good!

Gutshot.. what i really think.. I think the states of Oregon and Wahington need fewer jobs so people move away from here! As the standard of living goes up in the northwest the quality of life goes down! Our states should NOT be in the business of bringing new bussinesses here hi tech, timber or otherwise.. However that seems to be the sole purpose of our current leadership. I think businesses should be discouraged from moving here because we are better off without them. You asked for my opinion you got it.

Also our schools or any other public services are not going to get better by adding more money to them. Here in Washington we told our government that we want them to do a better job with less money PERIOD! bringing more businesses here just to increase our revenue base is a stupid way to manage a state! Absolutely stupid. our first priority should be the quality of life for thoes who already live here.

Also someone mentioned manufacturing jobs.. manufacturing jobs are not going away because we have roadless areas they are going away because the American worker is too expensive and manufacturing companies too greedy. Manufacturing jobs are being lost because labor is cheaper in third world countries. Like it or not thats the truth it has nothing to do with enviromental regulation, enviromental policy, or enviromentalists.. Suggesting that that is the case is pure unadulterated BS!

[Straydog]

Deepslayer,

Because it affects fish and fishing would be my guess. graemlins/idea.gif

If it is "BS" to you, why do you read it? :whazzup:

[ 12-15-2002, 10:18 AM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

[NWaddict]

crabbait,

this is jenny's site and i understand that you help monitor it. Due to this fact, i understand that you have every right to determine what should be talked about on this board. It isn't anyone's paticular right, but rather a privlige to partake in this site.

However, i do have something for you to ponder. Everytime something like this comes up, you or some other moderator tells everyone something along the lines of: "no one's going to agree so let's stop talking about it." I'm sorry, but people that are willing to spend time constructing arguments over the most important issues that effect our lands, streams and fish should be commended for taking an interest at all. You suggest going fishing or crabbing or hunting. That is entirely missing the point. In effect, you are suggesting to just keep using our resources for personal enjoyment instead of concerning your self with how our forests or anything else are managed.

Unfortuatley, too many people's solution for complicated issues such as this is simply to not think about it all. The answer is not to go fishing, the answer is to read threads such as these and make an educated opinion based on the information presented and/or information you have gathered yourself.

The future of our environment, fishing included obviously, is in politics and government policy. If you and ifish dont want to hold a public forum for these sorts of debates, that is ifish's right... but just dont think that you are doing society or the environment any favors.

-Dom

[crabbait]

Since this was addressed to me, I will respond to it: I have no problem with people expressing their opinion on issues that affect fishing. This topic, however, rarely stays focused on the fish.

Instead, it quickly turns into a debate that pits those involved in the timber industry against those who have strong opinions on the damage that the industry has done to the environment in general and specifically to fish habitat and stocks.

People site studies that were paid for by some environmental group or the timber industry, not to educate, but to shore up an opinion that they already hold.

On one extreme, people seem to think that the planet was put here to provide them a living and should be "*****" by any available means as long as it is the "most effective" or "economically viable". It appears that there is no pillage too extreme as long as someone has a job today and to heck with tomorrow.

On the other extreme, people seem to think that the planet is a shrine and should not be effected by man in any way. All wild areas should be permanently set aside and humans should not even enter these areas for fear that we will somehow permanently alter the pristine.

Emotions run high on both sides and both sides are certain that their's is the only correct view and that all opposing views are held by people with small minds and no compassion, either for the people, or for the planet.

Is there resolution in this sharing of opinion? No. The same arguements that were posted last week or last month are trotted out again and again. The discussion divides people instead of bringing them together.

Is there a middle? Yes, and, in my opinion, most people believe that a strong timber industry will be based on forrest practices that, while not as cost effective, are sustainable and defensible from an environmental stand point.

I moderate a fishing forum. The problem that I have with this recurring thread is that it does not even try to bring people to an inclusive resolution somewhere in the middle. Instead, the ongoing bickering pushes people apart and cements their opinion that the other side is unthinking and unreasonable.

Note that I did not close the thread, only warned that it was going nowhere (just as before) and that people are better off doing something productive.

That said, I think this "discussion" has once again run its course. I will leave it open for now in the hope that someone will have something productive to say on the issue.

[ 12-15-2002, 05:53 PM: Message edited by: crabbait ]

[NWaddict]

crabbait,

i appreciate and respect your thoughtful reply. The only thing i would say is that i would guess (and hope) that their are a lot more people reading a thread like this than their are participating in it. Assuming this, I'd like to think that threads like this might incite at least some people to further their understanding of these kinds of topics and formulate their own opinions. I think that reading stuff like this could help others reach that "middle ground" that you refer to.

At the same time, i do realize that many people are unable to have a discussion about controversial topics without taking it personally. So i understand the difficult position you are in.

thanks for your reply.

[Straydog]

Despite the divsiveness that does indeed always go along with these threads, I do feel there is educational value to many of the posts.

I know I have learned some things. I also think there is a lot of value to people reading these that are not participating. I think people may be learning more than you realize.

Along those lines, I think that education should be a big priority for any of us that want to see increased fish runs and the healthy watersheds they require.

In the post about the man that excavated Pistol River, what if he really didn't think it would be a "big deal" to move tons of gravel and rechannel the river.......? Maybe more education and more people being aware of their surroundings and the consequence of their actions can and should be a big part of our goal of building and protecting our resource.

Unfortunately there gets to be a lot of chaff thrown in but if you sort that out there are plenty of grains of knowledge to be had from these discussions in my opinion. :smile:

[ 12-15-2002, 06:44 PM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

[boater]

.

[ 12-15-2002, 07:27 PM: Message edited by: boater ]

[rob allen]

boater tell that to the folks at Stanley.

I am done with this thread

[boater]

i should have never posted a responce to a total idiot.

[crabbait]

Thank you, boater. And with that witty repartee we bid adeu to this thread.