Gov. Kitz. fishing Tilla. Bay?????

[Jerry Dove]

The local paper, Tillamook Headlight Herald tells me today that Gov. Kitz. fished Tillamook Bay last week with local guide and watershed council member Bob Reese. Does anybody know details. No body seems to want to talk to me about it. Seems funny that he would be over here fishing when elections are next week. We know that our Tilla. State Rep. Elaine Hopson, said she would not fight to save our hatcherys. After the public got up in arms she said (Oh I did not mean it that way). Bob Reese wrote a letter to the local paper last week , saying she was a rear supportor of hatcheries, because she went fishing with him, once after the big Tillamook Meeting. I need to try to figgure out what is going on. I have a meeting with Lindsey Ball this week, to talk about funding for hatcheries.

[5-Cents]

Click the link at the top of this page "Catch more fish with The Guides Forecast" There he is Dr. Tax & Spend with his fish! :shocked: :shocked: :shocked:

[skein]

All it proves is they can count. They counted the calls that came in from ifishers during the hatchery crisis and decided, "wow, maybe we better go fishing." Non-existent during the bad times but plenty visible right before the election.

Well, folks, I *don't* see 'em! They're still invisible to me.... graemlins/berry.gif graemlins/berry.gif graemlins/berry.gif

By the way, I don't vote in Tcounty, but I do remember, and I haven't forgotten that this was a state-wide thing, not just the coastal communities.

Skein

[Jerry Dove]

Thanks, five cents. I still wonder why.

[5-Cents]

Why he is fishing instead campaigning? He is a lame duck. Our economy, job growth and unemployment rate are the worst in the county and his "leadership" (use the term lightly) helped put us here. graemlins/berry.gif graemlins/berry.gif graemlins/berry.gif Oh sure I bet there are a lot of people trying to get elected that want him to help them out.... NOT! :mad:

Truth be told he probably wants to get out to TB to catch some fish before the whole thing dries up because this tax increase has a snowballs chance in H of passing when our economy is so bad. So they will shut down the hatcheries down there. Bye-Bye fish. The handwriting is on the wall now! :shocked: :hoboy: :hoboy:

[finclipped]

I am not a Oregon resident, but in my estimation, Kitzhaber has been a strong advocate for salmon restoration and protection in the NW. For Instance, The Oregon plan was an attempt to "self govern" salmon restoration and rebuild stocks with voluntary efforts from land owners. Instead, we now have the NMFS heavy handingly making decisions without land owner input.
Kitzhaber was the only one who had the gonads to stand up to power reliant industries in balancing dams with fish. The other governers, hid behind a rock and played dumb. Democrat or Republican, it doesn't matter to me, this guy was one of the few politicians who tryed to help fish.

By the way, the Tillamook hatchery Fall chinook component is only 10% of the total run. Naturally spawning fish make up the other 90%.

[The Fishing Geek]

Yeah, he's a lame duck. That's why he wouldn't let those representatives who didn't want to make the tough decisions skate through with borrowing against next year, making things WORSE then instead of an election year.

What's wrong with the Governor going out and fishing, especially this time of year? Does he not deserve a day off once in awhile? Or do I have to link back to the thread where I laid it out how the Governer CANNOT MAKE OR EVEN SUGGEST SELECTIVE CUTS IN THE BUDGET, regardless what the rank and file were saying. With the representatives out he can't do a heck of a lot right now as far as making changes, and what sort of changes can he make right now anyway? You can't just "fix" the economy. It's a cycle, and we're on the down side.

Give the guy a break.

[dampainter]

WHY CARE ? goes along with what kinda toilet paper he`s using :rolleyes:

[dogfishboy]

graemlins/applause.gif Finclipped and Fishing Geek.

[Straydog]

I agree, give the guy a break! He likes to fish and likes the outdoors.

Very few of us are willing to make the sacrifices our elected officials make just by being in the process at that level.

I do not agree with all of anyones ideas but certainly respect them for giving of themselves and respect their right to have a life without being ragged on and questioned at every step.

Kitzhaber has done some very positive things in regards to our fisheries and I for one respect his guts in standing up for fish issues as he has.

[garyk]

Hey Jerry, support one of our local businesses and subscribe to The Guides Forecast, the trip is no secret mystery and all the details are there - pics too!

Or instead of making backhanded comments :hoboy: just call Reese and get the straight story.

[Bill Monroe]

Just from the outside looking in (ok, a lot)...

1. Kitzhaber has helped fish in many more ways than most realize...hatchery opponents sometimes seem to have his ear, but only because he understands the habitat issues and what's at stake.

2. Jerry Dove has helped fish in many more ways than most realize...even as vocal as he is. Stay behind him.

3. I looked at that photo and didn't see an adipose fin on one of the guv's fish (the brightest, too)....

[skein]

I have to agree with the statements that Kitz has done much for northwest salmon, and I ought to be happy that someone so visible is spending his time fishing - and enjoying it - rather than ignoring fish, fishermen, and the dollars they bring into a local economy. My comments were based more on frustration than common sense. Don't vote for me. I'm not running for anything, but if I do, don't vote for me then, either.

Excuse me, my breakfast of crow is about ready. Let's see, a cup of coffee, a plate of feathers, a little ketchup...I can do this. graemlins/1zhelp.gif

Skein

[onstep]

Great for bob for getting guys like kitzhaber out there. We as sportfishers need that kind of expeirance to stick in the minds of policy makers and officails. This will payoff down the road just look at some of the in roads that have been made expanded springer seasons, finclipping, and the ability of our lobbyists to actually get in the door. On the other hand, I kind of half wish kitzhaber would have got skunked. That way he could see the lack of fish we really have. This state needs more fish if it wants to continue to transform itself to a tourism center to make up for the lack of economic growth that exists. We don't have much economic growth in this state and I believe fish can be a vehicle to changing that.

[SailCat]

http://www.theguidesforecast.com/pic/02102403.jpg

"Pro Guide Bob Rees had the pleasure of entertaining some special guests this week. French fish fanatic Gilles Faure invited Governor John Kitzhaber while Headlight Herald publisher Eric Henry and mayoral candidate for Bay City Pat Vining joined the group for an awesome outing on 10/23. We landed 5 chinook and 1 wild coho by 11:00 A.M. fishing spinners near the Ghost Hole."

~MT
The Guide's Forecast (http://www.theguidesforecast.com/)

[Flatfish]

Had I known that I would have gotten up early so i could pee in his Wheaties.Turnabout is fair play.The guy is a jerk with an agenda.Like most politics,he has his motives.Whatever they are.It is sad that his motives do dot represent what the majority wants.
Mark

[The Fishing Geek]

Originally posted by Flatfish:
Had I known that I would have gotten up early so i could pee in his Wheaties.Turnabout is fair play.The guy is a jerk with an agenda.Like most politics,he has his motives.Whatever they are.It is sad that his motives do dot represent what the majority wants.
Mark<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">Everyone has an "agenda". Everyone has "motives". And I recall that he won elections twice over his career, and he'd probably win a third time if it weren't for term limits. He certainly would have beat Gordon Smith if he ran for that position. If his motives do dot represent anyone, it would be a minority of people.

[Flatfish]

FG,
we are all allowed to have an opinion, and to voice it.I understand some will not agree with me.That is OK.
Mark.

[The Fishing Geek]

Everyone is entitled to an opinion. They just shouldn't try and pass that opinion off as fact, as that is the fertilizer that starts heated debates.

[fishchaser]

You all know the Govenor loves to fish. Yeah we are in the fight of our lives right now over those fish. BUT REMEBER He isn't running anymore. His term is up. So why not go fishing? He can't do anymore for the state now. It will be in someone elses hands here in the next few months.

If I only had 60 days left in my job, You bet I would go fishing.

[ripper]

I am glad to see that not everyone on iFish is a right wing republican (not that there is anything wrong with that).

Kitzhaber has been an advocate whether you agree with other policies or not.

Good to hear both sides.

[Jerry Dove]

All said and done, he still wants to close the coastal hatcheries. I'll let you all know more after I meet with Lindsey Ball tomorrow.

[The Fishing Geek]

Originally posted by jerry dove:
All said and done, he still wants to close the coastal hatcheries.<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">I would be interested in seeing proof of this statement. I would like to see a quote coming from his mouth that says as much.

[northriver1]

The Fishing Geek

Bring Mr. Tax and Spend on. What issues would the lame duck governor
run on to defeat Senator Smith. How he fixed the education system in the State of Oregon, or better yet, how he just tried to fix the education system in the state. I know, how he showed respect for the office of governor by taking the oath of office in blue jeans. Real class. Oh better yet, how he got off his death bed and traveled to Springfield after the Thurston High shooting and spoke about gun control, hell with the the sorrow, healing and the total loss of life for no reason. Another class act. What has the guy done to earn anyones vote. The State of Oregon will not miss this guy.

[The Fishing Geek]

Originally posted by northriver1:
The Fishing Geek

Bring Mr. Tax and Spend on. What issues would the lame duck governor
run on to defeat Senator Smith. How he fixed the education system in the State of Oregon, or better yet, how he just tried to fix the education system in the state. I know, how he showed respect for the office of governor by taking the oath of office in blue jeans. Real class. Oh better yet, how he got off his death bed and traveled to Springfield after the Thurston High shooting and spoke about gun control, hell with the the sorrow, healing and the total loss of life for no reason. Another class act. What has the guy done to earn anyones vote. The State of Oregon will not miss this guy.<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">Keep it fishing-related, northriver1. Nobody wants to debate gun control, school spending, or fashion sense on a fishing board. :hoboy:

[lost_sailor]

The legislature makes the laws and the budgets. You can't blame one guy. Dr. No can tell a wild fish from a clipped fish.

2 or 3 years of Kevin and you might want him back, with the hatcheries closed and the rivers fouled. I'll say no more ... wait ... one thing ...

VOTE

[Stew]

Kitz has done alot for salmon restoration....no opinion just fact! graemlins/applause.gif He also is a wild fish advocate and that's good too! We should all be wild fish advocates! However not at the expense of severly damaging the North coast economy. I think, just my opinion mind you, he has an agenda to rid the coast of hatchery steelhead and salmon runs! All fine and good if there is a viable wild fish policy in place along with wild fish habitat restoration. We've got a long ways to go on the latter.
Who cares if he took the oath in blue jeans? :rolleyes:

[rebell]

Glad to see him go!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:tongue: graemlins/applause.gif

[Jerry Dove]

I know, no politics, but if Mannix is Gov. TRUST ME, hatcheries will not close, the other choice, do I need to say any more/

[The Fishing Geek]

Originally posted by jerry dove:
I know, no politics, but if Mannix is Gov. TRUST ME, hatcheries will not close, the other choice, do I need to say any more/<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">Yes, please say more. Please show me where Ted Kulongoski has said that he would close hatcheries. I wait patiently for the proof.

[Point-of-Sale Clerk]

rubber baby buggy bumpers

[ 10-31-2002, 11:02 PM: Message edited by: *** Clerk ]

[MarlinMark]

There is a huge difference in biology and politics. Everybody that is a citizen can vote and therefore has "politcs." Not everyone has an education about the difference between wild and hatchery fish. It's all about the science. The Lame Duck Govenor is a scientist by nature and education. Unfortunately that gets in the way of a lot of peoples beliefs on hatcheries. Everyone believes that it is the problem of whether or not to have hatcheries or not. It isn't. It is about impeding upstream migration of biologicaly adapt fish. This is all about anadromous fish. Look at the life cycles!!! Everyone thinks it's the Gov. Well it's actually the big business behind all of the power dams. The very same people that Kitz. stood up to.

Have a wonderful debate. I'm off to carve a pumpkin and have a :cheers:

Mark

[Jerry Dove]

AS I SAID TRUST ME!!!! ***-----I KNOW YOU DO NOT WANT TO BELIVE THAT , BUT I THINK YOU WOULD YOU WOULD GO ALONG WITH THE OTHER CHOICE AND CLOSE HATCHERIES. DO I NEED TO SAY MORE? !!!!

[Jerry Dove]

Marlin Mark: WE DO NOT HAVE DAMS ON THE TILLAMOOK RIVERS, BUT WE SURE DO HAVE A LOT OF HATCHERY FISH FOR ALL TO CATCH!! AND ENJOY.

[Jerry Dove]

Fishing Geek: What has Klusk---- or how ever you speel it, has he said? We in Tillamook have not seen him. First time in history that a Gov. candidate has not shown their face in Tillamook County. Guess he does not want us to ask what he would do about hatcheries. HUH?

[The Fishing Geek]

Originally posted by jerry dove:
Fishing Geek: What has Klusk---- or how ever you speel it, has he said? We in Tillamook have not seen him. First time in history that a Gov. candidate has not shown their face in Tillamook County. Guess he does not want us to ask what he would do about hatcheries. HUH?<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">Kulongoski is his last name, Jerry. Kulongoski. We shouldn't choose our candidates by the ease that we can spell their names.

Anyway, as I'm not one to wear tinfoil hats I took it upon myself to actually write Mr. Kulongoski's campaign an email to see what his stance is on the issue. Naturally, he can lie through his teeth like many other political candidates are wont to do, so let's get that position out of the way now before you pull it out of your...hat later.

And before you accuse me of loading the question a certain way, I will now copy to you the email that I sent. You will see that I do not include my opinion in the question:

I am one of the thousands of sports anglers who will be making their way to the polls soon. In order for me to make an informed vote, would you please provide to me your candidate's stance on the continued funding of fish hatcheries in the state.

Please note that I will be sharing the response on the state's largest online fishing community at http://www.ifish.net.

Thank You,
David Jackson
Milwaukie, OR

(I didn't link the website in the email. The forum software does that.)

There. Pretty non-committal, isn't it? Of course, I'm not so shallow as to choose my candidates based upon their stance on hatcheries in Oregon. There are many other issues, some of them more important than fish. However, we won't deal with those here. Let's see what Mr. Kulongoski's campaign comes back with so that we can make an informed, non-reactionary decision. Deal?

[Point-of-Sale Clerk]

rubber baby buggy bumpers

[ 10-31-2002, 11:03 PM: Message edited by: *** Clerk ]

[lost_sailor]

If you refuse to raise taxes and you're dedicated to making "The Government" smaller, you're likely to close some hatcheries.

If you're dedicated to fewer regulatory restrictions on business, water quality WILL suffer.

[crabbait]

[ 10-31-2002, 11:19 PM: Message edited by: crabbait ]

[fishbane]

Lets look at the facts here folks
We had a surplus budget untill gw and his corupt corp boys came into office with there litttle tax return bs. We gave away all that money and then the ecconomy dropped and 9/11 came around. Now we are in trouble. In the mean time the wealthy 5% and big corparations get more tax breaks and we have to pay the price by getting higher taxes. Manix would continue down this path of giving our corps and land devolpers free run and we will have even less fish because of sprawl and polution.

If the feds are in money trouble then so is our state funding. to hatcheries and such.

here is a little list of just few things since gw and his boys like the traitor Cheny our vp( His company Halliburton still does business in Iraq on there oil fields and helped rebuild them after the gulf war)

This is just some of what he did in his first 6 months prior to 9/11

* cut funding to Federal fish and game progams by 500 million dollars , A chunk of this would have gone to our LOCAL Hatcheries

*revoked rules that prevents companies with enviormental and safty violations to get goverment contracts

* wants open national monuments for oil drilling, strip mining and clear cutting. Won't that be nice look kids once we get past this oil rig and smoke you will see mt rushmore.

*has already reduced funding 86 % to community access program, like health care and food bank money to states

* cut funding for work force retraining gprograms by 200 million.

This list just goes on and on.

Don't blame our State gov for the republican parties doing. He told our republican congress to get the job done on the budget and they couldn't do it.

What we need is higher taxes for the rich and the corparations and funnel that money into our state coffers .

Maybe create a video poker machine that the money only goes to hatcheries.

Vote the republicans out of office
We are just stupid white men if we don't

[Jerry Dove]

***;;;;; YOUR NOT WORTH A REPLY!!!

[garyk]

Hey how about the time a few years back Governor Kitzhaber decided to prove how much he hated North Coast fish that he went steelhead fishing with Jim Erickson?

That MUST have been the beginning of the dastardly conspiracy graemlins/stupid.gif

[The Fishing Geek]

Originally posted by fishbane:
We are just stupid white men if we don't<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">Yo Fishbane...ya seen the movie yet? I'd have emailed ya but you've got that turned off. If you haven't seen the movie yet I highly recommend it.

[fishbane]

Oh yeah you bet.
I would encourage anyone to see it. Bowling for Columbine. Pro gun or gun control. doesn't matter. It is a realy great and informative film.

:cheers:

[Jerry Dove]

Hey Geek, did you ever get an answer. I didn't. I'm not sure he knows what a fish is.

[Paddlefish]

Some really interesting commentary here, if I can manage the whiplash in trying to follow it!

Somehow, hatcheries have gotten to be the litmus test of gubernatorial candidates; in other words, your entire electability is based on whether or not fish factories are your number one priority. Huh?

(I guess the fact that my family medical coverage has gradually gone from $12 per month to almost $500 per month isn't important, or that I need to choose between hatchery improvements or a new sewage system for the local grade school. Hmmm.)

What are hatcheries anyway? A patch applied to (hopefully) stop the murderous results of logging, dam building, overfishing, pollution, estuary filling, and "economic development."

The salmon were "thick enough to walk on" before the arrival of hatcheries. What's changed? Kitz didn't kill the salmon. Some of you guys are targetting the guy who refuses to apply the 25th BAND-AID. If the bleeding continues, maybe another approach is needed.

Let's work on rebuilding the resource.

As I recall, in fact, the gov didn't make any specific requests about which items were to be cut; he left that to the individual departments. To blame "hatchery cuts" on Kitz alone is misguided. The ODFW folks had to make their own choices: bang for the buck. What do we save? Wha do we cut?

The most cost-effective approach for someone who only wants to freeze the maximum number of salmon would perhaps be to go to Briritish Columbia and fish for salmon directly out of the net pens.

[The Fishing Geek]

As of now I have not received a reply from his campaign. I sent off another email about 8pm last night and I also posted the query in his online town forum. While it is frustrating that the query is going unanswered, I have to accept that this IS the last week of the campaign and that his people are likely very busy. I do NOT consider the silence as an indication of his position.

If I hear nothing over the weekend (and I doubt that they are taking the weekend before the election off), then I will call on Monday and see if they will email me a document addressing the issue. I would take it over the phone but I don't expect anyone to accept my word when quoting a phone call.

[Straydog]

Fishing Geek,

I responded to your note on the Kulongoski sight and will do so here too.

As I said, I am glad you are asking and am anxious to hear the answer.

On the other hand, note that I asked Mannix personally if he would support our on going efforts to obtain federal funding to install pumps and remove Savage Rapids Dam on the Rogue River. He answered with a sound "no".

Bear in mind that we got where we are today with this issue after years of legal wrangling and hard work to find concensous. We did find that concencous which led to the signing of a consent decree that had been promoted and strongly supported by Gov. Kitzhaber. This decree came after an election by the Irrigation District in which the majority of the patrons favored removing the dam. We now have the opportunity to remove the single largest fish killer in the Rogue River, have obtained agreement with the Irrigation Dist., Waterwatch, another environmental group or two and the Northwest Sportfishing Industry Association yet candidate Mannix says he will not support this effort if he is elected.

I find very little comfort in hearing a politician promise money for hatcheries at a time when their long term effectiveness is in question, their funding base is extremely fragile and our economy is in the dumpster.

I find much more comfort in the candidate that will work to cure our problems of habitat degradation and lack of naturally reproducing fish rather than simply make campaign promises to keep buying bandaids in a situation where he only has minimal control of the purse strings and at the same time states very clearly he will not work for habitat protection or improvement.

[big guy]

Fish or no fish I still wouldnt vote for mr. tax and spend.

[Point-of-Sale Clerk]

Straydog

But you’re a republican! :shocked:

All kidding aside, impressive post.

You never cease to amaze me… graemlins/applause.gif

[Straydog]

***,

Make that a 'frustrated' Republican!

The party is not the same one it was when as a punk highschool kid I as so impressed with Tom McMall I registered at 18 as an R.

Now as a punk adult, I am wondering how it got to the point it is today. :whazzup:

BTW, thank you for your kind words....... :grin:

[ 11-03-2002, 09:24 AM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

[OldRedSled]

FISHING GEEK,
i was lucky enough to hear and talk to Kulingouski (spelling?) in a small group At portland State during the primaries. I asked him the very question about closing the fish hatcheries on the North Coast, specifically noting the cedar creek and trask hatcheries.

His reply was intresting to note because he was not ready to answer that question and ended up giving me an answer of "it will take more study" (his actual words).
THE INTRESTING part of this was though his prepared answer he wanted to give. When i asked that question he thought i was asking about his support of hatcheries vs wild fish, which i was not asking about.

[OldRedSled]

FISHING GEEK,
i was lucky enough to hear and talk to Kulingouski (spelling?) in a small group At portland State during the primaries. I asked him the very question about closing the fish hatcheries on the North Coast, specifically the cedar creek and trask hatcheries closures

His reply was intresting to note because he was not ready to answer that question and ended up giving me an answer of "it will take more study" (his actual words).
THE INTRESTING part of this was though his prepared answer he wanted to give. When i asked that question he thought i was asking about his support of hatcheries vs wild fish, which i was not asking about.
I got the distinct impression he knew allot about the issue of hatcheries but not from the standpoint of fishing but instead from the debate point around native v.s hatchery fish. That in my mid is telling because it signals that he is aware or wary of the idea of eliminating hatcheries infavor of wild fish. Why would a potential canidate for Gov even have such a small issue on his radar? I am guessing that someone may have his ear on closure of hatcheries for native fish and if that is so then potential disaster looms. Politicans are like everyone elese in my mind, without significant outside input, they generally follow the advice of those closest to them (like we all do). I dont know what he thinks about hatcheries, becuase he never answered me and proably will never commit to any answer really.

But I feel you acn get a general idea of someones thinking about a issue on the manner in which they frame there answer, regardless if a definitive answer was given. Ted K. Framed his answer in the manner i explained above. I my opinion that issue is the last in the string of issues confronting hatcheries, and regardless if hes against it or for it I dont like the idea that his thinking pattern even accepts the debate framed in such a manner, becuase it represents a disconnect from the debate majority in the hatchery issue.

my two cents

P&gt;S i actually personally talked to ALL The dem primary canidates and 1 repub (not mannix) at PSU and it was Jim Hill who in my opinion would of done sportsfisherman the best (and oregon in my opinion, AND im a strong Republican) . Hills answer to me when I asked him the question was "I dont know the answer, what i would have to do would be to hire an expert , like yourself possibly (flattery always gets votes),who would know more about the sportfishing community"
Too bad he lost, In my opinion he was the most fisical, social, conservative out of both parties and he was a DEM; but the only one wise enough to know he cannot answer every question...

ORS

[OldRedSled]

why did my post get cut in-half??? :whazzup: :whazzup: :whazzup: THE second in that string is the complete answer

[The Fishing Geek]

Interesting insight, OldRedSled. It's always good to hear what the candidates have to say at public forums like that. The only disadvantage that those present are on minor topics such as this (and believe me, when it comes to some of the other issues like jobs, Oregon Health Plan, the state funding shortage, etc this is a relatively minor issue) the person who answers first is the one who has the least amount of time to prepare. With that said...

I just received a response to my question through email (thankfully). If anyone doubts its authenticity I would be happy to forward it to you so that you can analyze all of the header information. Here is the response:

David -- I just got a chance to talk to Ted. He said yes, he supports the hatchery system and the continued funding of hatcheries. -- Steve Novick, Issues Director, Kulongoski for Governor

Sure, it's not a lengthy response, but considering the short time that we gave them to respond I'd say that this is sufficient.

Might he change his mind? Might he be lying? Possible, but that could happen with everyone. Let's remember (as it seems so hard to do for some) that the GOVERNOR CANNOT RECOMMEND SPECIFIC CUTS IN THE BUDGET. Really. He can't.

Now take off the tinfoil hats and go use them to wrap your fish.

[Jerry Dove]

Fishing Geek: I want you to call ODFW director Lindsey Ball and ask him what his marching orders are from Gov. Kitz. concerning the costal fish hatcheries. I have heard the answer to that question to many times, but I want you to hear it from the horses mouth.

[Jerry Dove]

Hey Geek: Let me make it easy for you. Ball direct number, 503-872-5272. Jerry

[Point-of-Sale Clerk]

Yes Geek, if you want to hear it from the horse's mouth call Gov Kits...

If you want to hear from the other end of the horse give Mannix a call :grin: :shocked:

[The Fishing Geek]

Originally posted by jerry dove:
Fishing Geek: I want you to call ODFW director Lindsey Ball and ask him what his marching orders are from Gov. Kitz. concerning the costal fish hatcheries. I have heard the answer to that question to many times, but I want you to hear it from the horses mouth.<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">Jerry:

I'm not exactly sure what this has to do with Ted Kulongoski's hatchery plan. Regardless, what exactly are you talking about when you refer to "marching orders"? If I call up and ask for "marching orders" I'm going to sound a bit silly and uninformed.

And what of Mr. Kulongoski's response? Are you still convinced that he's against hatcheries? And what about Mannix and his position against the tax increase that we are voting on? Wouldn't that position put him as much "against the hatcheries" as Kitzhaber was alleged to be, as the result of those measures going down would be deep cuts in the ODFW budget?

[fishbane]

I myself would doubt that any republican is going help hatcheries that much. It is really up to us as individual fisherman to do something about it.
Manix is only interested in telling as many lies as he can to get elected then he work with his Corparations to **** our land and raise taxes to tax payers and lower them for big business.

He has all ready been caught out and out lieing about Teds record and the support of law enforcment agencies. The State police and many others are all supporting Ted.

Fish and game being part of the state police
Who do think we should support and trust.
Manix the liar or Ted who has the support of almost all of our state law enforment groups.

If you vote republican
your just another stupid white man
Drop Bush not Bombs

[5-Cents]

fishbane,

Could you please tell us how you really feel? graemlins/icon_argue.gif

[fishbane]

Ok the facts here as far as any funding is concerned.

Manix and local republicans say they will lower taxes( most likly only to big business and farming corps and such.) Bush wants to make his bad idea tax cut permanent.

Now prior to The bush admin we had a surplus budget now we are back in the red billions of dollars.

Now localy our state leg can't get a budget worked out at all. They want to borrow against tabacco money we may never see because of appeals and such by b ig tabacoo.

So how in the heck is Manix going to lower our taxes without killing funding to hatcheries and schools and what not.

He can't, the republicans can't put together budget now with the money they do have. How will they do it with less? Wave a magic wand or stick to us and lower bussiness taxes most likely.

[Cohodependent]

I have to say that for the most part I like Gov. Kitz. I know that is he is an avid outdoorsman and does like to fish. Those of you who think he is the Tax and Spend King, where is the money going to come from to run the state. Our ballot system is a mess. I hate to pay taxes along with the next guy, but what services do you want to suspend? Every time a ballot measure passes that lowers taxes, every one is up in arms about their pet programs being cut. The Gov. does not make the budget, that is the job of the legislature. What are they doing? Not their job, that is for sure. Every polititian in Salem is afraid to even talk about a raise in taxes, but that is what is needed, and what we send them to Salem for. I expect them to do their job and make the tough descions. Why are they refering the tax raise to the voters? We are paying them to make those descisions for us are we not? If not, what are we paying them for? Perhaps we could save some money by making those jobs non paid. Serve in the Legislature for the good of the state. I feel that Kitz is really attempting to do what is best for the the state as a whole. We are kidding our selves. There is no way that us voters will vote in a tax at this point, so what services do we want to do with out? Schools? Roads? Forest fire prevention? What? There is no way that we can blame one person. Oh, the other thing I like about him is the fact that he is not afraid to wear his jeans and boots to official functions. I feel that it shows that he is one of us and is not caught up trying to impress us with expensive suits. Since when does a suit make the man and what does it have to do with showing respect?

[The Fishing Geek]

By in large I agree with you except for the following:

Perhaps we could save some money by making those jobs non paid. Serve in the Legislature for the good of the state.<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">The problem with that idea is that the only people who could afford to take that amount of time off without pay are likely to be folks who are pretty well-off financially. Can we be sure that these folks are going to have the interests of those who are struggling financially in mind when they write laws? I think that a situation like that would almost make the division between legislators and the common man even greater.

As good as it sounds, good intentions won't pay the heat bill nor the rent. :depressed:

[OneLastCast]

Ya know, I was doing a good job of leaving this discussion alone but with Fishbanes ramblings I had to finally post.
We aren't going to win no matter who wins the gubernatorial race. But....

Before Bush took office and the economy was taking that big dive I told my wife that, "just wait, some Joker is going to blame the economy going South on Bush".

Well Fishbane....you are getting close to being that humorous guy. The economy was dropping on Clintons watch, Enron, WorldCom, etc happened on Clintons watch. And believe it or not Kitzhaber didn't give us a tax break and the state was still 890 million in the hole. The state deficit can't be blamed on Bush can it? Yeah maybe it can.
But if we were 890 million short on the State budget and assuming an average 8percent tax then the state was missing over 11 billion in income. Huh....wonder why that happened. Again, do your research and find out just when the dot coms, the tech stocks and the utilities started falling.
And your comment that
"We gave away all that money and then the ecconomy (sic) dropped and 9/11 came around. Now we are all in trouble. In the mean time the wealthy 5% and big corparations (sic) get more tax breaks and we have to pay the price by getting higher taxes. Manix (sic) would continue down this path of giving our corps (sic) and land developers free run and we will have even less fish because of sprawl and polution (sic)."

In answer...
Yeah we gave away all that money, maybe it wasn't the best idea but he was trying to stimulate the economy that was already diving. And no, the tax cut had nothing to do with 9/11.
The corporation that I am 1/3 owner in pays 35% to the Feds on the first dollar we make and 9% to the state. Check your tax returns and see what your rate is.
Regarding that we will have "even less fish because of sprawl and pollution."
At the coast, DEQ puts a building moratorium on any municipality that appears to be polluting any waterway. That means NO NEW BUILDING. DLCD has severely limited any potential of outward expansion of any municipality.
Now look at Portland, that bastion of democratic ideals. Expansion is rampant. The Willamette runs like a cess pool with no regulation or fines. Tell me again who is killing fish and generating urban sprawl.

And one of the reasons that we are in the State pickle that we are in is that the state was spending high on the hog during the boom times of the '90's and now when the money has dryed up nobody that is affected wants to cut any of those new programs that were created.

Vote democrat or republican, it doesn't matter. Let's just hold our politicians accountable.

OneLastCast

message edited by wife

[Cohodependent]

Here, here!

[happybrew]

Okay, the election's over now. Go fishing!

happybrew