Girly men at Buoy 10

[Silver Hilton]

OK, it rhymed, what can I say...

I fished every other day at the mouth of the Columbia over the last week. Because of the short, young fishermen in the boat, we fished for short periods of time, around tide changes usually about two hours before we had to go for ice cream. Hooked (but did not land) one to four fish every time. On the sunny days, Coyotes (4.0) in silver and green and silver and blue were good, with big, whole herring batting cleanup. On cloudy days, big whole herring were the ticket. Had a bit of a problem getting my guys to keep the fish on - two breakoffs of BIG fish - one I estimate at 50 lbs plus jumping at the boat. Oh, well. I need to respool with line stronger than 20 lbs. Darn, losing a fish flash and a diver on a fish is expensive.

Fished near the bridge on high tide changes, near the warranton sawdust pile on low tide change. two rods at 14 pulls, two rods at 25 pulls o delta divers. 1.5 to 3 mph speed.

If you can't catch fish after that, well, you need more help than I can give you without personal attention. :wink:

[David Johnson]

I finished my season without ever loosing a fish to break-offs. 65# Power Pro for main line and 50# Big Game for leader. Even if a fish was allowed to get under the boat and rub the chine we never had one cut our leader. And I never had to re-tie after every fish.

I hear a lot of stories of broken off fish, even with 40# and they would have been trophies in the boat if the leader was stepped up.

I hope this helps some out there.

[kampy]

I was wondering from the name of the post if Jen was was allowing a new form of entertainment,WWWWWWhhhooooo. Guess I can stay connected......Sounds like you had a costly and difficult time staying connected on the trip.

[Silver Hilton]

Well, we had a difficult time staying hooked up, but we hooked a lot of fish. Most fish were lost due to hooks coming free, rather than breakoffs, though we we did have a run of three $20 breakoffs, which stunk.

I'm going to be moving up in pound test next time.

David, be careful of such pronouncements, they have a way of coming back to haunt you... :wink:

[kampy]

Well you were fishing while I was working. We both know who had more fun.

[kampy]

Oh I forgot, Try Tuf line 50# ( black & white) or better yet 80# on a bigger reel. 40-50# ultra leader. I've had no problems to date.

[KingFisher85]

I can see fishing in the ocean with 40 pound test fishing line for salmon, Thats what I use, but 60 pound test for salmon, no way I'm sorry, that's way to big. I use that much fishing for bottom fish. I use 20 pound test line for in the Columbia and have yet to brake off to a salmon or steelhead. I keep my drag not very tight at all and let them run as much as they want. The only time I lose fish is when my drag is tight and the hook pops out. This is just me, I can say this well work for you. I like to take HR long fights and get sore arms. Also when using the smaller line you get more hits and you don't have to use as much lead to get on bottom. Pluse when I get a fish that wants to run under the boat, I drop my rod tip under the boat as quick as I can and if the fish wants to go over the the other side I keep the rod tip deep in the water and walk it all the way around the back of the boat. This is just my way of doing it. I don't want to hear from anyone telling me that I'm crazy or stupid anything like that so.

[ 09-02-2002, 07:46 PM: Message edited by: KingFisher85 ]

[Pitch Pocket]

I have to agree with the 50 lb leader. I had more snapped 40 lb leader than I've ever seen. A 30-40 lb head shaking Chinook was enough to snap 10 leaders of mine.

I set my drag just enough to hold a Deep 6 diver and a cut plug fresh herring and it was too tight for the punishment the fish delivered. I went to reducing the drag after a hook up to protect the leader.

I also think I lost fish due to re-sharpend Gama's in the salt. I'd sharpen a hook, pull it up 30 minutes later and it was rusted! That has to reduce it's hook setting ability.

From now on, 50 lb leader, new hooks and light drag for these behemoths.

[boater]

kingfisher85, i agree with you 100 percent, i think the craze for ultra high pound test line is for the birds, i use 20 pound trilene XT and have never had it break and losing all your gear has got to tell you that your knot was bad or just plain junk line.

[David Johnson]

I highly recomend that manuvour when a fish goes under the boat and I always instruct it to my clients but many times they don't always listen or remember to do it so it's nice to have a little extra room for error

Have you tried the supper braid lines? 65# Power Pro is the same diamater as 20# mono but without the streach.

Also, how many fish are you hooking for those sore arm fights? We're hooking hundreds of fish per year on the same reels without changing spools of line.

If I was fishing by my self or with just one or two people in the boat and there wasn't a horde of other boats around then I would use lighter line too. For coastal steelhead we almost always use light line.

I was only trying to offer a solution to peoples lost fish. When I go fishing I am out there to maximize the catch and I eleminate any chance of loosing a fish or hooking less fish. For the weekender that is a good plan to fallow as they have less time to fish so why give the fish any advantage.

[MarlinMark]

I wish I had those problems. :wink:

Mark

[David Johnson]

Your right Sjp, always use brand new Gami's. If there is any hint of dullness I throw a hook away and put on a fresh new one.....eleminate the lost fish variable.

[Pitch Pocket]

Thanks Dave, those fine points are experience talking. I am really lucky to have experienced enough leader snapping and lost fish due to dull hooks during these absolutely outstanding salmon runs. I'm sure that I've gathered 5 years experince in the last 2 by just having so many opportunities.

[Silver Hilton]

Just to clarify, the fish we were breaking off were breaking the main line, in the middle of the line, not at the knot. Three different brands of line, all failed in the middle of the line, within the last 10 or 20 feet. The brands were Trilene Big Game, Ande, and Maxima Crystal Ivory. All 20 or 25 lb test. All reels were spooled with line purchased this year. Two of them were broken on the hookset, one on a run near the boat.

I use 30 Lb Maxima Ultragreen for leader. I haven't broken any leaders at all this year. Normally I use 20 lb Maxima when I'm not using all the heavy terminal gear, but I wanted a little extra beef. I rarely break the 20lb leader, and am not known for babying fish.

What I think was happening on the breakoffs is that the pull of all the gear (fish flash and diver), plus the pull of the fish, when the fish made a turn, was too much for my guys to handle, by following the fish a bit with the rod. I know at least one of them was thumbing the spool accidently. The reels had the drag reasonably tight, but not so tight that line didn't occasionally come off under the pull of the delta diver while trolling. So I doubt the drag was too heavy. I think there was just too much terminal gear for the line used. Oh, well. I'll go to either 30 lb or the Power Pro next year.

I haven't had any problems with these lines using them as downrigger lines and flasher gear. I think the only reasonable explanation is the load placed on the lines by the delta diver.

While I appreciate all the suggestions about sharper hooks and better knots, those who have fished with me know that that is not likely to be the problem. But thanks for thinking of me anyway. :smile:

And David, thanks again for your help earlier this year, which was instrumental in letting me have and enjoy this problem. Much better to hook and lose fish, than to never hook at all. I hope your boat stays full!

[Snapset]

I am not a fan of any of the Mainlines you mentioned, least of all that Crystal Maxima. If you are going to use mono for your main line, I would recommend Ultra Green. Better yet, Use the Power Pro or one of Cabela's Braids. They troll much better than any of the Mono's. Also, if you are breaking your Mono anywhere but at the Knot, your line has been damaged somehow. I would guess it is getting damaged in transit. If you are pulling it down parallel to the pole and traveling with it under tension, the bigger monofilaments will get a kink that will cause a weak spot. Another likely culprit is a chipped or cracked ceramic insert, I would check that very closely. If you don't have ceramic guides, check your metal guides for grooves. These can become sharp and shave line thin. Sun for extended peiods of time is also a very bad thing. I am serious about the damaged mono. A knot will always weaken your line at least a small amount. If that is not where your line is breaking, your line is damaged, needs to be replaced, and the cause of damage found and eliminated. I empathize with you, man. I hate losing fish due to gear problems, and I have experienced way too much of it.

[KingFisher85]

David-
I know what you are talking about how you have to use that big line when you are guiding. You must get a lot of people that are out for there first time salmon fishing and just go to town on reeling them hogs up so you need that bigger line, and then on top of that they forget to drop the rod tip into the water and under the boat because the got a big fish on and there harts just going as fast as can be. But if you are like me and can get out in to a smaller boat with just like 2 guys on the boat and room to have fun, I like to use my 20 pound main line for salmon. Me I don't fish b10 a lot but when I do I use 40 pound line. That's the most that I have ever used for salmon fishing.
I just went out and got myself some of that Fireline in 20 pound test fishing line. Its going to be nice for bobber fishing but I cannot cast it very far at all. I have my casting drag is set to just about fall off. I like it because when you set the hook its right there, but also I don't like it when you got smaller line on and it snaps it from the hook set. Also that stuff cuts other peoples line if it gets hooked up with theirs.
Also the fish that I hook, the only time the come off is on a bad hook or leader tie or or my drag is set to tight and so when they jump or run, the hook pops right out of there mouth .

[kampy]

I saw a 12 year old boy catch a 18# springer from the bank using a 4 1/2 ' ultra lite trout rod with 4# cheep mono from the bank. Can be done & can be fun. I've also had my 30# fish run thru the lines of passing boats while combat fishing at Winchester bay and was happy to see the 50# tuf cut thru their mono. My suggestions are only that. I have many rods and reels set up different for many different conditions. If I take a business client with me and I feel they are inexperienced, he or she will probably get the one set up heavy. Covers many problems and will generally catch as many fish.
To be sure, I enjoy the least amount of gear with the biggest fish possible to really get my heart rate going. And I'm still working on that. :cheers:

[Fishin Magician]

It is really hard to beat fishing with braided lines. You rarely ever have to change mainline plus you can go with like David said 65# strength with 20# diameter. I am going on probably 10 years now of fishing with braided and almost all rods are braided mainline.
John

[Fishplay]

30lb braid is in my opinion a good all around mainline. I don't have 10 different reels to spool with the ideal line for every situation. I prefer the power pro over tuff but either is an excellent choice. I am dissapointed in how fast the pigment fades in the new hi-vis yellow power pro however. I don't find it nesseccary to retie mainline unless you have possibly damaged it. Always retie everything after a line tangle.,including replacing your mooching rig. Flashers and divers have sharpes and will damage lines. Also braids will cut themselves and or each other.
For leader I use 40lb but don't see a problem with 50 for fall nooks. My rule is new leader and new hooks after every hookup!!! We keep new mooching rigs ready and don't even bother to remove the old one from the fish untill the cleaning station. No fighting with hooks in nets just SNIP...and :cheers:
Now all we need is a hook that stays in a head shaking 50lber like a circle hook in a BFB(halibut). graemlins/idea.gif

[ReelMcCoy]

I have to agree with Power Pro or Tuff line. I have landed Chinook to fifty pounds and had Sturgeon to the boat in excess of 6 feet.

The one thing I have not seen mentioned here is that you need to match your line to your rod. If you are running a heavy rod with light line it is going to break. The only time I use 80 or 100 pound test line is on a rod rated to 80 or 100 pound test.

The rods I run for both Sturgeon and Salmon are rated from 15 to 30 pound test line. I run either 30 pound Power Pro or 35 pound Tuff line (black and white). I have been using them for at least ten years now with almost no break offs. If any wants to know they are one piece Ugly Stix's. You can get them for about 30 dollars. They will stand a lot of abuse.

[David Johnson]

Silver Hilton,

As you say your main line is breaking have you noticed that after a few hours or a day of fishing the last few feet of line begins to get kind of curly? I have.

A few years ago when I was running 30# mono on my Astoria diver rods I was noticing this happening. It's from all the strain of the diver and current streaching out the streach of the line, hense making it weeker.

I've also noticed this happening with 30# mono up in Alaska on the Nushagak while catching 30 to 50 chinook per day, they would streach out the line and it would get all curly at the end.

Since switching over to the braided line no problem, the braided stuff has no streach and therefore doesn't have this problem.

Maybe this could be it????

[ 09-03-2002, 07:20 AM: Message edited by: David Johnson ]

[Pitch Pocket]

You can run 100 lb test on any rod as long as you set your drag for the rod...not the line. When you get up there in breaking strength, you have to set your drag to the weakest link, in this case, the rod. I've run 50 lb Tuff line on steelhead plug rods for sturgeon and have never broken a rod.

I did break the tip off of my Talon salmon rod the other day. It got snapped off when I closed the lid to my fish box.

[Silver Hilton]

David,

I haven't noticed the line getting curly, but I suspect that your theory is on target. The end of the line is where the strain would be greatest under the pull of the divers.

To the others, I doubt the line is flawed, and I'm pretty sure the guides are fine. I have been around the block enough to check for these things, and the rods and lines work fine in other situations. I think D. Johnson has it right - the divers put a lot of strain on the line.

To the person who suggested Ultragreen, I agree this is a better line. I haven't had these problems with the two rods that were using Ultragreen or FibreGlo. I am experimenting with other brands to see if there are more economical choices than the high dollar Maxima, as I take a lot of folks out, and would prefer to be able to use a more economical choice. Early results are that this is false economy. :depressed:

[David Johnson]

Another thing to consider, you only have to refill your reel with braided every 3+ years.

[rags]

David, when using the baided line and the Big Game what type of knots are you using?

[Deleted User]

Too many complaints about this post.
I pulled it.
Thanks,
Jen

[ 09-03-2002, 03:42 PM: Message edited by: Jennie@ifish ]

[Pitch Pocket]

"Friendly?? Fisherman",

That is rude, confrontational and seriously uncalled for. If you don't have anything nice to say don't say anything at all.

[Lured In]

I think David is on track with this both for himself and as a guide. Personally I run 50# Tuff line on my Abu 6501's with 30# Big Game leader. My rods are soft tipped with decent backbone. I set my drag 'mildly loose' this allows the fish to take line and not break the leader. (it's also easier to tighten your drag with your thumb if need be than cry over a broken leader). The softer rod tips also allows for more 'cushion' when the fish head shakes. If I hit a moster, it will be able to run, but that is why I run 6501's with 250+ yards of Tuff line. I am not advocating over exhausting the fish, just match your gear to where and how you are going to be fishing, which I think David is doing and obviously he is doing it right.

I couldn't believe how hard some of the guys were cranking on fish down at Frenchman's the other day. They looked like they were fishing for peeler's! :shocked: Of the fish I saw caught that day, Where's my Bobber was the only one I saw that really took his time to ensure he didn't horse the fish, but worked it and landed it. He did have room and time which is a luxury that is not always present.

Personally, if I ever have a leader break (which I haven't yet...) I might think of bumping up leader test. :wink: :grin:

For knots, I use a modified improved clinch, with double wraps around the eye of the swivel or spreader before wrapping the line etc to attach the Tuff line. I use a standard improved clinch to attach leaders.

[ 09-03-2002, 10:07 AM: Message edited by: Lured In ]

[O'City Fisherman]

friendly fisherman,
Please be careful of how you talk to people on the board.

David is and has been doing a great job getting his clients into fish and then ensuring them of being able to keep them.

If you do not like the way he does his business then please keep the comments to yourself.

Alot of times people like to hire a guide and when paying the $$$ that some guides ask for they want to ensure that they get there $$$ worth.

In fact my Brother in law just got done going out with David and Myself. This was the first time he ever caught a Salmon and if David did not have the equipment that he had we would have lost the fish.

[Lured In]

Friendly fisherman...(or so you say), you are way off base here. I believe a guide has an obligation to help his clients by minimizing the variables that can cause fewer fish to bite and/or fewer fish lost. I see nothing wrong with what David, or any guide, does in terms of putting clients (and us) on fish. Those are the only factors they (the guides) can control. They can't control the fish and the can't control their clients, but they can control the gear they use and help them land those those fish he has worked so hard to put them on.

[crabbait]

friendly fisherman - Your post was completely uncalled for: Confrontational and inflammatory. Please review the Acceptable use Policy.

I strongly suggest that you apologize to Dave and that you edit your post.

Dave was suggesting methods that many of us find to be effective when fishing in crowded conditions and/or with inexperienced anglers.

In my opinion, braided lines are the biggest advance in sport fishing since graphite. If you choose to stay with light mono for the sport of it that is fine and you may feel free to express that opinion. There is a place for that kind of fishing. Buoy-10 to Megler Bridge is not one of those places in my opinion.

Continued inflammatory posts will not be tolerated.

[kampy]

Don't pick on the guides. They are taking clients for many reasons. They're often rated by the amount of fish they provide by word of mouth. This is true of any business. The experience is mostly up to the guest and their wishes. I own my own boat and equipment and have asked about river channels, rapids, take out points, motel, bait shops, local sporting stores & historical site, etc. I'm not naive enough to expect his favorite hole, or cured egg receipt, Yet I've always left with new info and better knowledge on an area new to me. If a friendship comes about, a few of the secrets will come with trust.
I'm sure most guides can tell you about the couple who were just looking for a boat ride.
The fish were a bonus.
P.S. If a guide told me that he was just out for the spirtual experience, I would tell him to do it on his own time. Which is why they too take vacations.

[Predator Dawg]

Andrew,

I agree with you on the user error for fighting the fish vrs the line being bad. On the Kenai where you fight 50lb kings in a very strong current, I only use Berkley Big Game or Ande, both in 30 lb and haven't broke the main line yet. Our final 5 feet of leader is 60 lb so it can hold up against the teeth grating on it. Cardinal rule is to not thumb the reel. The drag should be set so it is not required especially in water the size of the lower Columbia. ALso, keep the rod bent but off to the side parallel to the water when the fish is near the surface (I know you know that), not up in the air. Sounds like FNG syndrome, not gear.

[Slayer]

I continue to see more and more post on Ifish that really concern me. People post their beliefs or experiences online to share in the community. Then you get those who see fit to criticize or ridiccule these post. We are all here to share our love and experience of fishing with each other, and to grow from that. I believe that if you can not say something without being a jerk, than you need to keep your mouths shut. I hope the administration will back me up on this and not allow poor conduct to be posted on this board.

[ReelMcCoy]

SJP you are correct that you can run any line you want on any rod. The problem is if the line is to light for the rod you will have no action on the rod. It is all done with the drag. You can do the same thing by strait lineing it. But we all know you never strait line a fish unless you want to brake them off. The rod acts like a shock absorber to ease the initial shock of a run.
So I disagree that you can be effective fishing if you are not set up correctly.

[SlabQuest]

I would guess that David Johnson is using high quality sensitive rods along with his small diameter line with as small a reel as possible. This makes for a high quality sportfishing experience.

The "old school, traditional ways" of fishing for big chinook that the "friendly" fisherman laments the passing of frequently consisted of piano wire, a reel that looked like a winch, a 3lb ball and a broomstick rod. They called it meat gear and you needed a bell on the rod to tell you there was a fish on.

[KingFisher85]

Friendly :mad: Fisherman-
I cant believe that someone would go off on a guide that gets fish and gets a lot of them. He has most likely hooked and landed more fish which = more fish being hit on the head more times then you have. Which = more happy customers that are willing to give there money to him for more fish. I may have said that I like to use 20 pound test line on my fish, but that's just because that I don't have the money to go out and fill my reels with the power pro or tuff line. I have just learned to fight my fish in on lighter line. I just now started to think why people don't like that tuff line and power pro, they don't have the money for it. Now look, David Johnson is not even posting on this topic anymore.

[Get Bent]

Don't mind ol' Friendly Fisherman. His name is rich in the tradition of irony. I'd bet money that investigations would show that he's got some sort of agenda going.

Hilton:

The skunk is dead. WAY dead. Give me a shout when you're down again. The titanium kill stick is ready. :smile:

[Skywalker]

Sheesh. I hardly ever post here because I'm really not in tune with most of the fisheries involved, but there are at least three things I do know, "friendly :rolleyes: fisherman":

1) people that book guided trips aren't as likely to appreciate the fishless experience as much as those of us that choose to head out to a less crowded (and usually less fishy, or less easily fished) spot, just for the therapeutic value of fishing alone. That's my way of saying if they didn't want to bring fish home, they wouldn't hire a guide.

2) Would you prefer people use light tackle everywhere, risking burning out an incidentally caught fish that must be released, or in a catch and release fishery, just for the purism of it? That's sort of how you sound.

3) Due to my rare trips here, it usually takes me a while to develop an impression of a poster. In your case I may make an exception.

[ 09-03-2002, 03:50 PM: Message edited by: Skywalker ]

[Silver Hilton]

GBT, nice to know that the skunk is gone, but I have to confess that I was looking forward to contributing to that. There could have been some serious mojo points involved in that. I'll be in touch if we end up coming down there. The silvers are looking to start up here, so i may have some serious conflicts... Lots of silvers, big chinook, lots of silvers, big chinook... Hm-m-m-m.

[David Johnson]

Someone asked what knots I'm using-I use a palamar (sp?) knot for my Power Pro to swivel and a clinch knot for my mono to swivel.

I was asked about reels, for most salmon I run Shamano Calcuta's and Bantum 50's, and some times 5501C and 6501 Ambasedours.

As far as my fishing trips go I am out there to provide a top notch fishing experience. That includes a fun and relaxing atmosphear, high quality tackle, comfort and an appreciation for the outdoors. Part of the package is also catching fish, this includes taking fish home to enjoy at a later date on the table.

If all that wasn't present I would be running an eco tour. If dead fish were the only goal then I would be running a meat market.

For some people taking fish home and getting lots of them is what they are looking for, thats why they go to Asotria with guides. For others a wilderness setting with catch and release fishing rings their bell. For them, we go on late winter/early spring drift boat trips on the coast streams.

Many "old school" guides would just as soon cuss you out about loosing a fish as they would teach you how to be a better fisherman.

Also, there are many more long faces seen on the dock when the catching is slow than there are people who get in the boat and say, "Boy this is great, I love being out here just to get away from it all."

P.S. Next Sunday I leave for Vancouver, Canada to walk some small streams with light tackle, just like I love to do when I can get a chance.

[Silver Hilton]

David,

don't let the dork get to you. Those who have read your stuff for a while know what a class act you are. It is not the common guide who shares as much info as you do, and I'm sure I'm not the only one around here who appreciates it.

[Killertraylor]

David - what type of reels are you using? I have one Shimano Calcutta 400 that I rigged with 50 lb. power pro and I have to tighten the drag down almost all the way to troll a diver. I think the "no stretch" property of the braided line means more pull on the drag than when I'm fishing 25 lb. mono. Are you using bigger reels for your clients with stronger drags?

For the record, we didn't lose any fish to break-offs this buoy 10 season using 25 lb. green Trilene Big Game as main line and 40 lb. Green Trilene Big game and 35 lb. Brown Maxima as leaders. I took about 10 feet of line off each rod after each weekend of fishing and re-tied each rod and I switched out my leaders on each rod each weekend. I'm sold on the 40 lb. Big Game as leader material.

Friendly fisherman - not only did I think your post was rude and you could have stated your opinion with more tact, but a good guide will make sure he has the right equipment to keep his clients happy - in this case, yes - that means they actually want to land the fish they are paying $125 (guessing here) a day to fish for. Sounds like Dave did a good job with getting fish in the boat once he got them to bite - which is what most of us have the hardest challenge doing.

[fishing is life]

friendly fisherman, i think you should change your name. you are not that friendly on this website, you might be in person but you should stop being so mean! . i think you owe Dave Johnson an appology. he was really just suggesting equipment to use that will increase your catch ratio. i did not see any bragging and this is a business to him. people dont pay 150 a head just to catch and release, they want something to take home and he makes sure that happens. i am going to follow his advice because it makes alot of sense. i really appreciate his information and if guys like you keep knit picking him he will stop being so generous.

[FallRiverGuy]

Friendly Fisherman,

I have been reading Dave’s post for years and have never once considered him to brag about his fishing abilities. He was simply supporting with facts his assertion of a technique that works for him.

Your diatribe regarding his spiritual connection to fishing is unfounded and baseless. You have no idea what kind of fishing he does when not guiding. I agree with the previous posts that suggest you apologize to Dave.

[David Johnson]

Thanks Silver Hilton.

[Deleted User]

To each his own. :grin:

[Killertraylor]

Nice apology....

"To each his own" is a fair statement if you're just talking about your opinion - I think most of us could care less if you don't like the way Mr. Johnson fishes. The beef everyone had with you was the rude manner in which you expressed your opinion. Hopefully your original post and your smarta** reply mean the end of your posting privileges here on ifish.