when is enough enough?

[crazyinoregon]

I thought that those of you that dont get the Tillamook paper might enjoy the read:
Clamming bust second largest in 20 years

BY Eric Henry
Headlight-Herald Staff

GARIBALDI — In the county’s second biggest clamming bust in 20 years, four Portland residents were each fined $1,108 for taking 762 clams over their collective legal limit in Tillamook Bay.
Acting on a report, Oregon State Police Trooper Greg Love found two men and two women in the Garibaldi tidal flats on July 11 with white buckets filled with 842 clams — well in excess of their legal limit of 20 clams each. The group also had three undersized Dungeness crabs.
The legal limit of bay clams is 20 per person per day, of which 12 may be gaper clams. A maximum of 12 male crabs, minimum size of 5-3/4 inches, may be taken per day.
The four, Yongfeng Yang, Yianhua Yu, An Liu and E Cai Guang, testified that they walked within 5 feet of posted Oregon Department of Fish and Wildlife signs, which includes detailed clamming regulations.
According to Neal Lemery, justice of the peace for the Tillamook County Justice Court, the largest bust in recent memory was for about 1,100 clams in the 1980s.
In a summary of the Aug. 9 ruling, Lemery wrote that this incident was a “very aggravated case” and that he considered the act of taking hundreds of clams “essential thievery against the people of Oregon.”
According to the summary, the defendants argued that they did not know the law. They also submitted their personal credentials and letters of recommendation in their defense, which Lemery blasted in his ruling.
“I find it unbelievable that citizens who are newspaper reporters, medical doctors and computer programmers can come to court and argue that they did not know the law and therefore should not be held responsible,” Lemery wrote. “ … the defendants are educated and professional citizens, yet their conduct that day demonstrates they have little or no respect for this state’s natural resources.”
In addition to the individual fines of $1,108, each person lost fishing privileges in Oregon for two years.
The maximum potential fine of $25 per clam would have resulted in fines of $19,050. However, Lemery reduced that amount, as the clams were returned to the bay by Trooper Love.
The four have the right to appeal the decision to Circuit Court of the State of Oregon for Tillamook County within 30 days.

[Keta]

They should do jail time too.

[Grant Scheele]

That's my kind of judge.

[POS Clerk]

They lost the right to go fishing for two years but can they go clamming?
If no license is currently required for shellfish how could the judge legally keep them from digging?
:hoboy:

[SailCat]

Yes! It's about damn time. Sweet justice.

Thanks for sharing!

~MT
The Guide's Forecast (http://www.theguidesforecast.com)

[Get Bent]

The fine does not match the crime. I don't care if the clams were returned to the bay. If someone stole large sums of property and the goods were returned to the owners, would they reduce the sentence by 95%? Likely not.

It's about time that game officers get tougher on these types of heinous infractions. Stick with the maximum fine, and if that's not big enough then change it.

[Pilar]

You all saw what I wrote before ....

All I am going to say is that PC is the order of the day. The problem described above is not new and I encourage all of you who clam to visit the clam beds in Garibaldi with cell phone in hand.

If you see someone who is blatently confused about the concept of limits or game laws dial the tip line and report them.

Oh and make sure you do it for anyone who is being an ignoramus regardless of race, religion, creed, sexual preference or any other PC consideration.

Ignoring the game laws amounts to theft.

In Saudi Arabia thieves are punished by the loss of various body parts. There are few theives in Saudi Arabia.

[ 08-14-2002, 03:10 PM: Message edited by: Pilar ]

[Empire]

I Thought California sucked on the penalties for game violations! I think it is politics...steal clams get nothing but a small fine. Poach abalone or anything else in the news recently and go to jail.

[joliver]

Along the same lines I was fishing just off Sauvies this spring for sturgeon. I had company from out of town and was doing well so I was there several days in a row. On the bank I witnessed the taking of numerous legal and sub legal sturgeon by atleast a dozen Asian speaking persons. They probably KO over 50 sturgeon in just the few days I was there. I called the TIP line and never did see any Police show. On the last day I fished I finally had enough so I pulled up and motored over to have a talk. Well none of the individuals fessed up to speaking english and I got nowhere. That day they had more than there limit including undersized. I got out my camera to take a few pictures and you would be amazed how many passed "hooked on phonics" in just a few seconds. Things got a little tense so I pulled away since me and a lovable lab brought Custer's last stand to mind. I once again reported the incident to a passing ODFW boat. They said they were stretched thin but would pass it on to OSP. Don't know if anything came of it but all we can do is to continue to report! There is enough for all.

[CATCH AND EAT]

Me no engwishy. That is the excuse I hear from employees sometimes. It gets really old.

Got to agree with Pilar on this one :mad:

[Hogmaster]

I know I am going to sound like a bigot here, but...

" I find it unbelievable that citizens who are newspaper reporters, medical doctors and computer programmers can come to court and argue that they did not know the law and therefore should not be held responsible,” <font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">It is those reporters, docs and programmers! Yep, that's the problem!

:grin: :grin: :grin:

[ultramag]

Very well stated Pilar....it's sad but it happens all the time.

[springer4you]

I agree
Wow 1100.00 fine, that don't teach anyone a lesson for the kind of money they are making.

Kc

[ 08-14-2002, 04:22 PM: Message edited by: springer4you ]

[6wapiti6]

Unfortunatly it happens all over. I was on the snake over memorial day weekend, and there was a group of people who were fishing oxbow resivoir. That part of the river is closed to the retention of bass until July 31st, I believe. This group must have had 40-50 bass in a bucket ranging in size from 6 inches to 3 pounds. I asked to see them and they smiled and showed me all of thier fish! When I told them that they were breaking the law, they just talked under thier breath in a foreign language and kept fishing. I did talk to a sheriff's deputy, but by the time he got there they were gone. As was stated above, they were stealing from everyone who lawfully uses that river. Still P*#&$#S me off to this day thinking about it.

[Hogmaster]

6wapiti6

So they were reporters, doctors, and/or programmers?

:grin: :grin: :grin:

[6wapiti6]

Could have been a whole dam town for as many people they had!!!!!!!! :grin:

[anniek66]

I have to agree with the crowd, send em home or send em to Texas

[Lured In]

(Before you hang me, understand I was a Navy brat and had no imput on where my father got stationed. I was not born and will not go back to So. Cal.) :rolleyes:

I'm going to be the dessenting opinion here. Growing up in Southern California I had the PLEASURE of having lots of friends who spoke english as a second language or spoke english and another language, both fluently. Sometimes I am amazed at relatively how sheltered many in the NW, including my children, are to other cultures.

This crime has absolutely NOTHING to do with what language they spoke. (I am not saying that doesn't happen). We have all seen the "rednecks" and "hillbillies" out poaching salmon and steelhead in the hills. Is this a language problem? I think not.

Before we start running around getting ready for a 'hangin' for not speaking english, think about this a little more.

I too have seen many a 'minority' poaching, especially fish or seafood, but not any more and probably less often than I have seen caucasians doing it. For some reason it just sticks in our minds.

Keep a level head and an open mind. Do the crime and pay the time (or fee in this case). That is regardless of what language you speak or nationality you are.

[6wapiti6]

I don't think anyone here is intentionally bashing anyone. I know I have seen my fair share of the good ol' boys breaking laws too. I think it was the excuse of not knowing the laws or the language that frustrates most people.

[cully]

I love it. Speak it, write it, read it or leave it. So applies to me right now. My wifes sister is married to a frenchy. There family is over here visiting from France for 5 weeks. NO not staying with us but we get together everyday for some activity. It always p*&%$s me off when in the middle of dinner all of a sudden they start speaking french. They speak fluent english. I wonder if they can spell RUDE. graemlins/stupid.gif They ask every year when are we coming to visit them in Paris. I can spell. NEVER :hoboy: Oh, by the way. Last year i took them to the Siletz to fish. Within 1 hour they had put down the rods and started to use the rope swing right where i was fishing. I headed wayyyyyyyy down river to fish. The next thing I see is Mr. Frenchy starting a fire on the river bank. This is was at Moonshine park in the middle of the summer. Before i can say lickety split the Camp Host races past me and asks me if i know them. Hell no. He races to them and cracks heads. Ha! Fire out. The frenchy comes down to where I'm fishing and says "whats the big deal". I inform him that the reason France has no forest to speak of is because they destroyed it. Sorry to vent but I needed to get this off my chest :sick:

[Tagster]

Lured,

I completely agree with your sentiment of not going vigilanty against each non-english speaker that is happily residing in our english speaking country. I believe what most people are saying is that if you choose to live here and take advantage of our privileges, then please make every effort possible to conform to our standards. Speaking english, driving on the right side of the road, etc. I have one employee that loves to say "no, no engleesh" each time that I try to approach him with a disciplinary issue. Unfortunately for him, I speak spanish and am able to understand what he tells his friends. One of these days, I will let him know that I actually understand what he mutters under his breath. I am just having too much fun with it now.

That being said, inability to speak or read english is not a valid defense. Ignorance of the law is not an acceptable excuse. If you choose to participate in an activity, you must know the rules first.

I have no sympathy for these people.

Tag

[Killertraylor]

This reminds me of an incident I've been meaning to post for awhile now. While I was hunting cow elk in the Ukiah unit last November, I heard several shots coming from the road about 2 miles away. I got in my truck and drove down to find a truck backed off the road loading up 3 dead doe deer and 2 fawns. I approached the individual and his wife and asked what they were doing - to my knowledge there was no doe season going on in the Ukiah unit. His response "I can hunt day or night, 365 days a year, shoot as many deer as I want, either sex." I said, "wow - that doesn't seem right - are you handicapped or something?" His response (many of you see it coming) "NO, I'M WALLA WALLA TRIBE!" This guy looked as white as any caucasion I've ever seen - his wife did too, but I later learned that she had tribal blood and because he was married to her, he was in the tribe too. I asked if hunting was limited to the reservation (that's what I always thought) and he said no, they can hunt on any National Forest Land around.

Being an attorney, I promptly called the Union County DA's office and the Oregon State Police to find out whether this was true. Neither had any clue of whether it was legal for the Indian tribes to kill deer on National forest land. The deputy DA I talked to said "I think he's probably right" I returned to camp and ran into another hunter along the way and told him what I saw. He asked if it was an older Chevy with a blue canopy and I confirmed his description. He said he saw the same guy kill 6 does and a nice buck the weekend before when he was up scouting. He figured the guy was selling them as the Indian told him he had shot over 50 deer that month.

The state police followed up with my complaint and tracked the Indian down by his license plate. They talked to him on the reservation and they claim he had a copy of some treaty that allowed him to shoot as many deer/elk/antelope as they wanted on National forest land. I've been unable to find any copy of that treaty in the research I've done - but to be honest, I haven't looked that hard. The state police didn't think they had any authority to do anything and based on the DA's recommendation, they dropped the investigation.

I was left stunned that this one Indian could potentially destroy an entire herd of wintering deer in one of my favorite hunting units. Moreover, he was shooting them right in the middle of the rut - you could kill most of the bucks I saw with a hammer. I felt like writing a letter to the editor of the Oregonian, but the lawfirm I work for would frown on me doing something like that with possible political repercussions. I think if the people of Oregon knew what was actually going on, they would be furious. I'm not a political activist and don't like to get involved in situations like this, but something has to be done about this discrimination that is going on. Hispanics, Blacks, Whites and Asians and all other non-tribal people in Oregon have to purchase a license and apply for tags to hunt deer, elk and antelope and several other species of game on federal land. What possible reason could there be to allow tribal people to **** our National forests of game animals - they should be forced to put into the draw just like I have to and be subject to the laws of our state when they aren't on their reservation. Isn't that what reservations were designed for in the first place? A place they can go to and not be subject to the laws of the state around them?

Writing this has got my blood boiling again....And worst of all, I don't think there's anything any of us can do about it.

[Lured In]

Tagster, that is a good point and it was made ealier. I am not defending those that choose not to conform to the standards of our country. (It drives me crazy as well, but not conforming is becoming trendy. After all where else can you go and be a citizen of a country where you don't have to pledge allegience to?)

I digress. Anyway, my point is the law does not see color or language. If you are in this country you must obey the laws...PERIOD.

[POS Clerk]

killertraylor

I felt like writing a letter to the editor of the Oregonian, but the lawfirm I work for would frown on me doing something like that with possible political repercussions <font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">welcome to my world :grin: :grin: :grin:

[Get Bent]

Last I checked ignorance is not being monopolized by any specific nationality; although I will say that there are some groups (namely, Americans) who are quite adept at it.

For the record, I am a born and bred, stand at a parade when the flag goes by and fight for my rights and yours American. That doesn't change what I see day in and day out.

[Lured In]

POS...We always knew you were in your own world, at least now you have some company. :tongue: :grin:

[Tagster]

Sorry Lured...I don't like to rehash old discussions and get frustrated when people do. I need to refresh my screen a little more frequently.. :rolleyes:

KT-seems like someone is taking advantage of the system...if you asked them about it, he would probably tell you it is his "right" due to the years of degradation and abuse that the "white man" has put him through.

Enough from me...I do not want to get rolling on tribal indian advantages...(Can anyone say "casino"?)

Tag

[Killertraylor]

At least with the casino's its the people dumb enough to go there that contribute to all their profits - I don't have as much of a problem with that - a voluntary choice - as I do with the overkilling of wild game that I witnessed. Go ahead and take my neighbor's money if he's willing to gamble it away - but don't kill all the deer and elk in my favorite hunting unit.

[Duckie]

The judge should have fined them the complete amount or have them serve jail time.

Unfortunately, this scene is repeated time and time again. I believe that this is especially true from a small percentage within the Asian community.

It is more often than not that they plead ignorance of the laws and regulations when confronted. These so called fishermen and women only has a mindset of keeping everything that they catch without any mind to the impact their actions impart on the whole community and ecology.

[Lepper]

It is frustrating isn't it? Maybe we wouldn't have to have so many things to protect fishing and hunting if poeple just obeyed the laws we have.......

example..

The other day I was asked if I would drop my boat in and meet these people, I asked them why and they said because between 2 of them they had caught about 5 ling cod and 50 blacks.... I said no way, you deal with it..... then about a week later, I saw 2 guys c oming in with 9 nice sized halibut, this wasn't during any halibut season....

It ticks me off to know people do this... It is just plain out WRONG! and if I see you, I REPORT YOUR BUTTS!

dave

[Stew]

Originally posted by Pilar:
Let me guess, the English is a second language thing.

No excuse dude, this is America and we speak, read and write english. Learn it or hit the road.

<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">I couldn't agree more John! If we were to go to another country wouldn't we have to learn the language? I doubt everything would also be printed in english also for our convience.

[Jennie@ifish]

I understand your feelings, everyone, but watch the racial comments...
They are not tolerated on ifish.
Try to police yourself on this one, k?
Thanks,
Jen

[fishisabonus]

I love digging clams. It is really hard to stop at your limit. However, when I get home and start cleaning them I am always happy that I stopped with my limit.

Can you imagine cleaning that many clams?

[cully]

what is, is what is

[CATCH AND EAT]

I don't think anyone is trying to bigoted here. I think we are all frustrated with the way our society deals with imagration to our country.

We have massive influxes every year of folks from all over the world. This would be fine if they had something or some valuable skill to contribute to our nation. Most often this is not the case. "Give us your tired, your poor" is an archaic thought this day and age. How about, you come to this country what do you have to offer? Nothing!? Sorry, we are full up with "nothing do'ers". BYe bye.

The last time you went to the store, or read a voters form, or registered you kids for school, how many languages did you see printed? Well, it is going to be 7 very soon. Boy does that cost taxpayers money.

The load of supporting our nations poor fall on the backs of the very, very few.

Now as far as the law being broken and these fellow well educated Americans not knowing the law.....STICK IT TO THEM!!!!!!!! Hey I learned my lesson one time about not recording your fish before continuing to fish and it cost me $299.00. :blush: Lesson learned and I did'nt even get any money back :mad: .

Learn the laws and stay informed. There are a lot of inconsistencies in the law as some folks learned in the ocean off Ilwaco this last sunday. :shocked: :shocked: I saw some tickets and lots of suprised faces. graemlins/1zhelp.gif

Now as for our Native Americans.......I cannot believe that we still put up with this so called "Ancient Practice" :hoboy: It is a bunch of hooey based on a law that is 120 years old. It is time to renegotiate the treaties and trade fishing rights for casino rights. Sounds fair to me being a native born american of European decent. I find myself "not" to be superior in anyway to anyone. I just live, breath and will die an American. I have taken two foreign language courses and only use them as a back up to communicate with difficult clients. They appreciate that I try to work with them and are surprised when I am able to understand them. Yet, that does not make them above the law.

RANT RANT RANT and so on......

[cully]

oh ooo, someone just raised the BAR

[BottomFeeder]

I agree, I have seen all kinds of people, white, asian, hispanic, etc. overharvesting. The best thing to do is report it, take pictures of it, film with a cam corder, whatever it takes. These people are ripping you off, you should do whatever you can to help catch poachers, no matter what their color.

TPM

[Keta]

I am 1/8 Osage and 1/8 Cherokee. Can I use my salmon gill net in T Bay? !!!!NOT!!!!

What happened to all men (and women for the PS people out there) being equal?

If they vote or use goverment services they should be treated the same.

[springer4you]

I say fine each of them 25 bucks per clam and give it to the ODFW to restore some of the Hatcheries. But no, Our state's gonna get the money they need from the law abiding citizens that Hunt/Fish from the purchase of their license.

[Pilar]

You all saw what I wrote before ....

All I am going to say is that PC is the order of the day. The problem described above is not new and I encourage all of you who clam to visit the clam beds in Garibaldi with cell phone in hand.

If you see someone who is blatently confused about the concept of limits or game laws dial the tip line and report them.

Oh and make sure you do it for anyone who is being an ignoramus regardless of race, religion, creed, sexual preference or any other PC consideration.

Ignoring the game laws amounts to theft.

In Saudi Arabia thieves are punished by the loss of various body parts. There are few theives in Saudi Arabia.

[ 08-14-2002, 03:14 PM: Message edited by: Pilar ]

[Jennie@ifish]

This is going nowhere fast.... I've gotten complaints about it, and I am considering locking or moving the thread.
How can we keep this thread useful?
Jen

[ 08-14-2002, 02:31 PM: Message edited by: Jennie@ifish ]

[CAGEY]

:cheers: whoooooooooooooopie :grin: sock it to em :grin:

Heres their sign graemlins/stupid.gif

[crazyinoregon]

I need to make an appology. I did not intend to make this posting appear to be anything concerning culture. I was mearly wanting to look at how certain people (regardless of race, creed or color) abuse our resources. It is very important that all of us read and adhere to regulations concerning our preferred recreational endevours so that there remains plenty of resources for future generations of Ifishers.

[CATCH AND EAT]

I don't feel there is a need to lock or move this thread as long as it does not turn into a "hate ethnics" rag.

Simple and to the point that was originally made "know your regulations" "know the Law" and "don't use a language barrier as an excuse". This should have been the original message that is easy to understand.

I think the posts that have a slight angry side to them are that way out of frustration from all races, creeds, and religions. Including doughballs and red necks alike graemlins/1zhelp.gif Like I said, I broke the law and I paide the WHOLE fine. Why do these learn-ed folks get a break? That is what I am ticked about. They should have known better. :hoboy:

This thread still has value if:

1. we stick to the subject
2. discuss inconsistency of fines
3. discuss renegotiations of tribal treaties
4. education of folks that don't know better
5. document and enforce the law: Help out ODFW, sheriff, staters........

just my dollars $$$$$$$$$ worth.

[poshie]

Jen...I hope you do not close this thread. My hubby and I have been constant observers since the month of March ...clamming two weekends each month and not at Tillamook.This is a BIG problem regarding the crabs and clams.My comments have NO relationship to cultures. We have also expressed our dismay in person to several enforcement officers (and to the ODFW) round the North Beach area. There will be no licence or change requirements until 2004. WE NEED NEW REGULATIONS NOW. Paying a fee is very cheap for what is a great sport.
1. I believe I have shared this before and was told to us on the beach at Gearhart by THE Officer engaged in the enforcement. He came upon a group of people furiously digging clams. One of the women in the group jumped in a pickup truck...laid on the horn... and the group threw clams everywhere. including the back of his truck. Tillamook has seen more of the poaching than up North but the frequency
is increasing. We need the money for enforcement. They are stretched thin.
2. Something needs to be done about a single person digging clams for four and five kids. Think that is an exaggeration? No Way!
Little tiny kids with buckets...we saw at least 10 in one group no more than 5 years old.
Until a year or so ago, you could dig 65 clams daily in Alaska and many do. So for one person to do alot of digging at one time is easy. You can instruct
these kids but they are to dig there own. They can't shoot a deer until 12....
3. The waste is incredible..it is really hard to keep a 1 inch clam. I was told that the pressure of the shovel kills these clams and can't be put back.
3. Start the licence the first of October to correlate with the next season....I have a licence for WA as well and they got me twice
because I forgot it one weekend and they couldn't find me in their computer...I paid another $21.
4. The last two weekends, there were a lot of out of state cars...even California, Idaho and Utah.
Email a letter to the commissioners and let them know....by the way..there are many officers who are not familiar with the regulations.

[ 08-14-2002, 03:19 PM: Message edited by: posh II ]

[NEUTRON]

Bernie-good points

Crazy- nothing wrong with what you posted.
everyone on this side of the hill probably wouldn't have seen the article had you not posted it.
It's good to hear about the good guys catching the idiots in the act, better yet to see them pay for their greed. They are cheating us all. Poaching is poaching, has nothing to do with age, race, language etc. Obviously, in these folks case they tried to use language as an excuse and the judge didn't buy it.

In my opinion, no apology needed from you.
Keep those costal reports coming :smile:

[Bait O' Eggs]

My biggest dissapointment is the full 19K fine was not assessed. :depressed: In this case the state got a pretty good deal by getting $4400 and getting to keep the clams. To many times the state looses the animals and gets nothing. Make an example of those you do catch.

If Margorie was still sitting on the bench I bet she would have taken the 19K and got some hide while she was at it. :smile: :smile:

No tolerance should be accepted in an overharvest case. These individuals dont have an excuse except stupidity and that does not apply to not knowing the laws.

All that, and what you said Pilar! :cheers:

[Hogmaster]

CAE and Jennie -

You are right! I looked at my posts and realized I was being totally bigoted! I apologize and promise I won't make further generalizations about;
Reporters
Doctors
Programmers

:grin: :grin: :grin:

Just a suggestion; a few other posters might consider an apology too. Anyone may not mean to put an entire class of people in a particular clam bucket, but that is the effect of some of these comments.

Hang the guilty, protect the innocent!

[CATCH AND EAT]

Posh II, you are solid right on!!! There should be a license for clams, crabs, and the like. This would generate much needed money and cut out a lot of garbage from folks that just don't care.

Thanks.

:cheers: :cool:

[Ken Drifter]

graemlins/stupid.gif I think that says it all.......Overharvesting...More like STUPID STEALING

[Jennie@ifish]

OK... I see very clearly that we need the laws on clamming changed now.
How do we go about this?
Jen

[CATCH AND EAT]

By having folks that are "Pilar like" get involved. That's how. Now, just got to find folks that have the time or can make the time. No time you say? Write a stinkin letter and let these folks know you are just "a little ticked off" about these issues.

Letters are very effective tools and do make a difference. Veto that Gov'ner. :tongue:

[Uncle Roman]

The judge ABSOLUTELY should not have lowered the fine. Who the he[[ needs that many clams? Where were they going to ship them? :mad:

[dampainter]

I am getting really tired of hearing about and seeing [ this stuff] :mad:

[ 08-14-2002, 10:15 PM: Message edited by: Pete ]

[GoFish]

Uninformed newbys see vast areas of bountiful resources. No real rules where many of them are from so why expect rules here? As I look at the last 40-50 years, I see good Americans who have slowly and unintentionally given away the country. Lax attitudes on immigration, to the point of tolerating illegal entry, are ruining what used to be a good place to live.

I should shut up now. Think I'll just gofish.
Er...I mean clamming, yea...., that's what this is about. I remember. Must have been something C&E said a while back. Got me to look up. graemlins/icon_argue.gif

[ 08-14-2002, 05:02 PM: Message edited by: gofish ]

[CATCH AND EAT]

Got to watch out for that C&E guy. He's a bad hombre and a bad influence on some people. :wink: :wink: Then again, he does speak with many grains of truth. Sometimes ya just have to sort through the chaff. :smile:

[Lured In]

C&E first let me say I am sorry you got tagged (pun intended) for not filling out your harvest card before getting the rods wet again. I was actually issued a warning for this yesterday and perhaps I only did not get a ticket because my son was there. In all honesty, this was news to me. I understood the regulations to state that the tag must be marked immediately. I did assume that 5 minutes to bleed the fish and get the hooks off the deck was immediate enough. I was WRONG. I got lucky.

My point is this. Game laws are violated intentionally and unintentionally. I can only assume we have to trust the game officers judgement as to intent.

Someone touched on this earlier. The clams were recovered. In essence the resource was saved and the 'transgressors' punished for attempted theft. Perhaps the judge used, of all things good judgement, in light of the fact the overharvested clams were apparently returned unharmed.

If I may offer an analogy, how many of us have received traffic tickets and had our fines lowered by appearing in court? In all my experiences with this and friends as well, I can say that more often than not the fine is reduced. Did we break the traffic laws? Absolutely. Did we pay a fine, absolutely. Was it the harshest penalty possible? Not likely. So my question is did you speed today or not come to a complete stop? Should the person behind you call in your violation of the traffic laws?

Although I believe all violations should be punished, when I am on the receiving end, I am praying for grace. Not to get too spiritual, but, "Let him who is without sin, cast the first stone."

I know it won't be me.

Disclaimer: If I offended anyone in my earler post about "rednecks and hillbillies", I sincerely apologize. I will use more politically correct terms next time such as "geneologically challenged and culturally unaware."

BTW I am not suggesting we should avoid reporting obvious poaching violations, merely do so with some humility.

[ 08-14-2002, 05:43 PM: Message edited by: Lured In ]

[poshie]

Jen,
I think the email bombardment would at least enlighten them and let ODFW know our concern.
There is a new group out there called the Friend of the Razor and I understand they are
out of Gearhart. One of them was on that early morning fishing show about a month ago.
I did another post asking if anyone has emails
for these commissioners. I couldn't find them on the website.... graemlins/stupid.gif
It would just take a minute to email and OBVIOUSLY no cultural potshots are needed.

[AngleThis]

Did you guys know that up in the Puget Sound area, if not all of WA, every single fishing related game law carries a FELONY charge with the exception of undersized crabs?

I hate to say this, but these folks probably sold their booty many times to the local asian fish markets, and made so much money thier fines are negligible. Their biggest problem now is how to keep harvesting to keep their business going without getting caught so they have to contribute more funds to the state again....and THAT is why they did not get jail time.... financial opporunty cost associated with the next bust for the state.....Ka-Ching!

[Pete]

Bernie, some good points about focusing on the issue and getting involved. Let's not forget that no one has been more involved here than Jennie in bringing issues to our attention, or providing information and a forum for organizing our efforts to reform laws, support funding or address resource issues. From the carcass toss to the budget hearings, to the "Save our Hatcheries" campaign, to the fin clipping, to the "Preserve our Coastal Waters" page, Jen has put in huge hours without much credit at all. She does deserve a giant "thank you" for what she continues to do.

As for the assumptions people have drawn about why some people broke the law, it's pretty amazing to see what unsupported conclusions people are willing to draw. It really divides us from focusing on the task at hand ... leveraging pressure to ensure that our resources are properly protected from waste and abuse.

[poshie]

:cool:
I think it's time for a true story and it shows how serious WA judges are about their laws on clamming.
Some moons ago, when my kids were old enough to take their car and mom and Dad
took theirs with the mother in law in tow...It was much harder to get clams then and this was at or around Iron Springs. I had finished
my clamming and hung my onion bag on the trailer hitch of my son's car. I started to walk back down to the beach. Now everybody seemed to have a log to back up to..and I could hear this car coming between the cars and the logs. One guy gets out, takes a leak,
grabs my clams and they take off back down the beach. Mother in law is in a state of shock and I am frothing mad! I jump in son's car and take off down the beach in hot pursuit..husband and son are in the other car right behind me. I catch up to them where they have already been stopped by one of the local enforcement ossifers...circle their car and hop out! The ossifer says "Lady get back in your car." No..I want my clams..they have my clams." "Lady there are drug warrants on these guys" Husband and son are staring at me in disbelief. Ossifer opens the trunk and sure enough there is my onion bag with my clams. Ossifer still wants me in the car and he says "Do you want them prosecuted or do you want your clams? He tells me that he is going to have to keep the clams and I figure this guy is going to take my clams home himself. Very reluctantly, for the good of the clamming world, I gave up my clams.... :sick: $100 for that nice resort motel, gas,. licence, time and
it was so hard to get any. Needless to say, we were sad due to the loss. About 2 months later, I get a piece of mail from the state of WA
and in that little envelop is a $75 check for restitution. Sometimes one's faith gets tested and then the sun shines. $5 bucks a clam. :tongue:

[happybrew]

[ 08-14-2002, 10:19 PM: Message edited by: happybrew ]

[crabbait]

Good story, PoshII.

They did not get jail time because the state wants another financial opporunty to fine them?

enough enough!

[ 08-15-2002, 12:12 AM: Message edited by: crabbait ]

[garyk]

Killertraylor, kinda of going off topic here, and I can't fill in too many blanks for you, but what you're describing is the use of 'ceded lands' (not national forests) as opposed to reservation lands proper.

If you work for a law firm, you should find the research into the topic of ceded lands and treaty rights quite interesting.

It is my understanding that the Karnop firm in Bend specializes in this area of law.

[CATCH AND EAT]

Well Pete your are certainly right about Jennies efforts on our behalf. Political clout is hard to come by these days and she has definitly got it. So here is my official THANKS to Jen for what she has done by using the vehicle known as "i-fish.net".

And Pete'y, I wasn't trying to leave her out but only, merely, showing that because of this board folks like Pilar have gotten or been involved when no one else will. :cool: :cheers: graemlins/hearton.gif

We have said a lot of this stuff over and over again. We get ticked about fishing regs. We get ticked because someone is a doughball (guilty here graemlins/1zhelp.gif ) . We get ticked because someone "NO Speaky Engwish" and uses it as an excuse. If we follow the chain of events we could say it is a "local problem" caused by a County probem caused by an ODFW problem caused by a state problem, caused by a regional problem caused by a national problem as a result of an international problem. It boils down to how we regulate and enforce the problem childs of our country.

Know the law. obey the law and if you get caught pay the law.(the fine that is) :smile:

[Pete]

C&E, it's "Petie", not "Pete'y" ... fer cryin' out loud!

Now, lets watch to see if there's an appeal. Will anyone file an amicus brief?