Should PFDs Be Mandatory???

[Thumper]

With all the sadness surrounding the tragic sinking of Ted Howell's boat with the loss of two clients, I have begun to ponder this issue. Now don't get me wrong --- I am very uncomfortable with the thought of having Big Brother looking over our shoulder even more. But if Ted Howell could get nailed, anybody can. There is simply no more competent skipper than Ted.

We have mandatory seat belt laws, mandatory bicycle and motorcycle helmuts and other such safety rules that society requires under the law. In some states it is the law that children must wear PFDs. Is it time for a law mandating the wearing of PFDs for all boaters?

[ 05-20-2002, 11:25 AM: Message edited by: Thumper ]

[oregonwrestler]

IMHO, I believe that when any boat is in transit (probably more so with a motor) PFD's should be worn. Honestly, there are some pretty comfortable PFD's out there now days and wearing one isn't that big a deal. why you wouldn't want to wear one out in the big blue anyway, I don't know? Maybe the gov can set some sort of standard that makes it so you must wear one under certain water conditions (especially on ocean)?Just my 2 cents worth.....

[Sponge Bob]

Absolutley, kids have to where them, so why not the people who are responsible for them. How would a child feel if he/she were the only survivor because they were the only one with a pfd?
My 2 cents,
KAF

[Pilar]

What about helmets then? When the boat flips chances are pretty good that you'll get thrown into something hard.

Most of the people who die (>75%) in boating accidents start the check out process with a head injury. They go into the water unconscious. Yes, I will find the statistic if someone does not beat me to it.

Don't get me wrong, lifejackets are useful and necessary. I encourage you to get a float coat and have a dual purpose garment. Your stay warm coat and your lifejacket in one.

Boating is hazardous, period. That's the point of the exercise.

[Thumper]

Pilar --- I would be interested in the source of the statistic that you cite. I keep hearing about people who die by simple drowning or exposure, not by hitting the water unconcious.

[crabbait]

No, No, No. What ever happened to personal responsibility? I think PFDs are a good idea in some situations but I do not need a "keeper", especially one that I have to pay for (enforcement?).

Same goes for helmet laws, seatbelt laws,etc. In my opinion, it is high time that we started to let Mother Nature play a little natural selection.

Stop trying to save people from themselves. In the long run, it is better for the species.

[Capt. Rich]

I am attaching my email to the USCG Portland Marine Safety Office. Like the original safety belts in cars, a lot of people will not use PFD's because they are bulky or hinder mobility. The new inflatable PFD's are so good you don't even know you have them on.

To the USCG Portland MSO:

I am sure that all of the USCG in Oregon and the charter operators that work the coast are greatly saddened at the loss of two peoples lives this weekend. I am sure that it will have serious repercussions on the charter industry on the West Coast. As the accident involved the loss of life, there will probably be a board of inquiry on the accident and recommendations for action.

We previously corresponded about the Alaska Five Star program for Uninspected Passenger Vessels for Hire. (You can find it at: http://www.uscg.mil/d17/m/6pac/index.shtml ) As you know I am a strong proponent of the program. As the vessel involved in the accident was a UPV, it would seem that the Five Star Program would have been of some value in preventing the accident. I would hope that District 13 will give serious consideration to implementing the program.

I would like to offer some thoughts on personal floatation devices. From the media reports, it appears that none of the people onboard were wearing PFDs. From statistics it is estimated that 80% or more of drowning victims could have survived if they were wearing PFDs. UPVs like Inspected Passenger Vessels are required to carry a Type I PFD for everyone on board.

That is fine if there is time to don the PFD but crossing the bars in Oregon often there is no time to don them when something like what happened in Tillamook overcomes the boat. Some operators have their passengers don PFDs on bar crossings. Others do not. In this case with tragic results.

I think that one of the reasons that operators do not require passengers and themselves to don PFDs on bar crossings is that they feel that the PFD restricts mobility. It is hard to pilot a vessel when full attention is needed for action and the PFD hinders it. The new inflatable Type V or Type III PFDs are much easier to wear and after a while you hardly notice that you have a PFD on.

Mustang manufactures a Type III PFD that is almost Type I complaint. It has the SOLAS reflective tape, whistle and a place to attach a PFD light. Model nos. 3000, 3031 and 3032. I have personally worn one and completely forgot that I had one on. As a safety conscious charter operator, I would consider purchasing them for my passengers and crew as they cost around a hundred dollars apiece. This is far less expensive than the only Type I inflatable PFD offered now. I would be very reluctant to buy them and see over two hundred dollars walk away every once in a while.

Personally I am going to wear one of the Mustang Type III PFDs. I do not like the message that it sends the passengers if I am unable to offer them the same protection because the Mustang inflatable PFD does not meet USCG regulations for PFDs on a
UPV.

If one of the recommendations is that UPVs don PFDs on dangerous bar crossings, I would recommend that the USCG consider allowing the use of a donned inflatable Type III or V PFD substitute for merely carrying undonned Type I PFDs.

[Tanner]

BOE,
You forgot one thing on your list
11. Make sure the smoker is as far away from the house as possible. :tongue:

[Keta]

Why stop at manditory PFD's? Let's make seat belts and helmets manditory in boats too! NOT!!!
:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[ 05-20-2002, 01:40 PM: Message edited by: Keta ]

[SureSet]

Prozac maybe, PFD's no.............

SureSet

[hawgcatcher]

I think about the father that drowned down near Eugene a few weeks ago. He fell overboard and his poor kids circled the lake for 40 minutes until the boat went aground. I wonder about those kids and what they think about dad not having his PFD on. If it had been manditory, he might well have still been alive. But dad showed all that he could take care of himself, now no dad.

Yes I don't like government running my life either, but I don't like to pay taxes to take care of some victim of an accident that was hurt and didn't wear his seatbelt or wear his helmut and didn't have insurance. People complain about controls but they don't do anything until they are forced to by a law.

PFD's are a minor thing to worry about. If people refuse to wear them, and drownings start to increase, then make it a law.

[Fishin Magician]

I am for Pro-Choice, Wearing a lifejacket is the smart thing to do in most situations, however it is a personal choice whether or not to wear one. I know what it feels like to go down with a boat, ask Jennie (June 15,2000-Trask R.)Its no fun :hoboy: I know what it feels like to have your lungs full of water, I was scared sh/tless. Thank god for my best friend who came and got me out!!!!!!! Anyhow, I am more conscious now than ever and most of the time I wear an inflatable under my coat. It is my choice to wear one and it should be your choice also.
John

[TheRogue]

No,
No,
No.

We have enough things going on that we CAN'T pay to enforce now!!! Great, so now we can give a ticket to poor Ted because no-one was wearing life jackets?? Or maybe throw him in jail?? Spend the money instead on beefed up Coast Guard presence, subsidizing PFD's, showing graphic films of drowning victims during our new, wonderful MANDATORY boater's license courses...and let people take responsibility for their own actions!!

Next thing you know, we won't be letting ********* out in the ocean in his little boat, just to protect him!!!

My .02

[ 05-20-2002, 03:38 PM: Message edited by: TheRogue ]

[CptCatchem]

I have to vote NO ....... We continue to try and legislate an end to Death and with each new law passed, we end up with one more loss of freedom of choice.

No amount of legislation is going to stop death from occuring and reguardless of if the deceased is taken trajectly early in life or at a ripe old age, someone is going to grieve their loss.

I do agree that PFD's are a smart thing to use I just don't agree with creating YET another law to protect us from injuring ourselves.

[Phish_on]

NO.

I really don't need a government dictating every detail of my personal behavior.

I'm all for natural selection.

[Mofish]

Thumper sounds like you got a fire burning.

I have an auto inflatable PFD.

When I am in the ocean its on and when it is just myself and or my kids I wear it.

Law? NO

It should be left up to the Captian if he wants passangers to wear them or not.

Mofish

[RIPPLE]

PFD's are a good idea, yes. For me,personally it is while I am running my boat alone in conjunction with the kill switch lanyard, crossing the bar or sloppy conditions - but mandatory - a BIG NO!
:grin: RIPPLE :grin:

[ 05-20-2002, 03:56 PM: Message edited by: RIPPLE ]

[Hogmaster]

I go for the "No" as well...

The real question is why someone as experienced as Ted, in rough seas with a closed bar, would not have donned the vests earlier. The stories and what I saw of him interviewed on the news indicated they "went for it". They should have gone for it wearing PFDs and I am certain Ted would agree if he were asked.

So following that line of reasoning, maybe bar crossings are a place to require them. But then where does it stop? You must wear them 1 1/4 miles S/SE of Buoy 8 on the Columbia but only 75 yards off the South jetty at Tillamook? No "rule" would make sense for all situations.

When sitting in little current, 70 degree water and fishing for shad on an 88 degree day in June really warrant a mandatory PFD to provide additional safety? Not!

The dentist in Eugene fell overboard for some unknown reason, and one could argue the outcome may have been different had he been wearing a PFD. But freak accidents happen all the time. Perhaps we should all wear helmets as pedestrians or be prohibited from owning dogs or hunting. But perhaps some risks should be considered acceptable too.

It seems the rule of common sense should mandate the use of PFDs. I personally find it interesting that some of the "inflatables" (which I own, BTW) being recommended by even the Coast Guard are both lightweight and ILLEGAL as the only form of PFD for the boat. In fact, what is the rule with the newer "autoinflatables"? Are they "legal"? Just curious.

If it does become law, just remember that it won't kill you to wear one!

[Thumper]

I would be appreciative if one of the enforcement folks here on Ifish would give us the current rules regarding inflatables, auto or otherwise, etc. My understanding is that an inflatable is only legal if donned, but it would be nice to hear from the experts on this.

By the way, you might watch Ch.8 tonight. Ted said they were coming up to interview him, and the subject is to include PFDs.

[ 05-20-2002, 04:31 PM: Message edited by: Thumper ]

[DF]

I don’t mean to offend anyone with this,
but if you don’t wear a PFD in the ocean or rough water conditions. You’re an idiot and you are taking a stupid risk
Its not worth dying just because your PFD is ‘uncomfortable’
At age 17 I am used to wearing one all the time. For most of my life this was the law. Wear one at all times.
Now, I still wear one when underway. Its almost habit. Get in a boat, put on a life vest. Yes when anchored in the Mult. Channel on a hot day I could see were one could be uncomfortable. And you are most likely safe in those calm water conditions. But while underway wear one. I highly recommend float coats. Really comfortable and warm :grin:
Im not for government enforcement on this. That would give them way to much power. Before you know it we’ll be wearing safety glasses to the bathroom. graemlins/eek13.gif
If you’re a smart person. You’ll wear your PFD. :grin:

[Flatfish]

Life is dangerous.You can die at any time.Water can kill you.The more time you spend on the water the higher the chances you will fall in.
While I would prefer to go a few more years,if I had to choose, goin while doin what I love(being on the water NOT fishing)is the obvious choice.Preferably saltwater.It seems right.
Not trying to offend here or hurt anyone close to these tragic events but everyone dies sometime.I would rather be in a happy place than at work or some other intolerable place.
Mark

[PittsburghD]

If it happens, people, not politicians need to make the law. I'm not wearing a vest while paddling my pontoon on the North Fork of Timothy Lake in nothing but shorts, but I probably should when I am on the rivers. Eventually they will come up with more comfortable, less gaudy versions if we all start buying them.

--D

"That was about 4 or 5 cents."

[Straydog]

I cast a strong NO vote for mandatory use of PFD's by adults.

We can't afford enforcement of the laws we already have and besides, just because it is the law dosen't mean it will happen.

As pointed out earlier on here, it is the law to wear seat belts but not everyone does.

To say the guys life in Eugene would have been saved if it were a law mandating he wore one is simply not necessarily true. It is illegal to jay walk, does that stop people from doing it? Or speeding, or running stop signs or a myriad of laws that are broken constantly.

BTW, look for motorcycle helmets on adults to be fought over in the upcoming legislative session.... there is a rather persistant group of bike riders that will indeed be making this an issue again.

The common sense thing to do is to wear your PFD but it should not be mandated by law.

[ 05-20-2002, 09:58 PM: Message edited by: Straydog ]

[Salmonator]

Drummer, I have been called worse before and no I'm not offended. I do not wear a PFD as a habit in any waters. There has been two or three occasions in the last 15 years or so that I put one on for rough bar crossings. My kids have them on at all times the law requires and sometimes when it doesn't. I feel like I have good judgement when it comes to boating and don't believe I am putting myself anymore at risk than a smoker risks lung cancer. How about cheeseburgers, fries and high cholesterol? My cholesterol level worries me WAY more than wearing a PFD. As soon as big bro makes it mandatory to wear a PFD because it will save taxpayers money, we will all be required to take lipitor if we choose to eat fast food. It won't end until we all wind up walking down the street wearing a big pillow suit with a crash helmet eating a carrot stick. :rolleyes:
I do NOT feel like I am indestructable out on the water. I know where the PFD's are, anyone I invite onboard knows where they are and my kids are wearing them with very few exceptions. If you don't call me an idiot for not wearing my PFD, I won't call you an idiot for wolfing down a wendy's triple cheese stack and topping it off with a marlboro :sick:

[SouthCoastStu]

I think it shouldn't be mandatory. I already have enough laws to worry about if I'm breaking them or not. I always have kids wear one when they're on my boat, no exceptions. It's the law that children under 12 wear one when under way. I've got some real uncomfortable Type 1's. I only put one on when crossing a really nasty bar.

However, this has really made me stop and think. I'm definetly going to look into a float coat or inflatable. The Marine board page said that some inflatables have been approved (look for the label). Can't use them on kids, or for "high impact" sports (jetskies etc.). I'd really like to be around to see my son grow up...

[Bait O' Eggs]

I think big brother already has to many rules for me to follow. I put a life jacket on my kids every time out, no exception. I rarely wear a life jacket, heck to be completely honest I dont think I have had a seat belt on more than 3 or 4 times this year. If the conditions look bad the life jacket come out and go on.

As the captain of the boat, I need to take responsibility for myself and crew. If I am putting on a life jacket, everybody is putting one on, no exceptions. There must be something that is making the pucker factor rise.

As a passenger in a boat (non captain), I need to take responsibility for myself and provide information for others should I think life jackets need worn in a certain situation.

:wink: We think hatcheries make for a poor gene pool because the weak dont get weaned out, why should we think it is any different for humans and making numerous regulations for all to follow. :wink:

I guess we could really live a safe life by:
1. wearing a helmet at all time
2. putting an fancy air filtration system in our house
3. wearing a bullet proof vest (you never know when some postal worker is going to snap)
4. Dont drive more than 5 MPH
5. Cut all the trees down around your house so the wind wont blow them over.
6 Filter all the water we plan to drink
7. Only eat organic food
8. Dont fish anywhere near Oregon City :shocked:
9. Never board an airplane anywhere
10. etc......

Life comes with risk, if you are afraid of them lock the doors and stay inside. If you want to go outside and play in the world get after it to what ever comfort level you desire. Just dont sit in your house and tell me what to do because you are afraid. I will take care of myself or die in the process.

[DF]

Note:
I think your an idiot if you don't wear one in the ocean and or rough water conditions :wink:
Kids.. ALWAYS wear one. My little brother complains "I dont like this thing its hot."
Just gotta say
sorry bud ya gotta wear it
:grin:

[AngleThis]

Hell NO!!!! The government has every so many stings and pipelines into every aspect of our lives, to even consider something like this makes me madder than hell! We don't need the governement to think for us, and legislate our lives into little behavioral slots, at our own expense of course. It would be one thing if our legislators had better brains, and shallower pockets, but consider some of the strange and overbearing laws in this state, and then look at the incredibly oversized beaurocracy in this state and the unbelievably high cost of it.

[Paddlefish]

Drummer:

You're the model!! :cool:

Wear it. Get used to it. Eventually you won't notice it. Good choices!

Flatfish:

Yeah, we're all going sometime. I'd rather get in a few more decades of fishing with my kids and (future) grandkids first before succumbing to something I did stupidly or something totally out of my control, however. The life jacket is a one-time-only insurance expense, though, as opposed to those "monthly automatic withdrawal" leeches. Can't beat the cost/benefit ratio. :smile:

[NAUTI-NOTIONS]

Knowing the right thing is easy, its the doing it i find hard to follow. jackets are always on my kids, but as an adult i find making excuses easier than just flat putting it on. went with a friend who just bought two auto inflat. (sos penders)we talk the talk about wearing them but when we hit the water nether of us had one on. he's been out three time in rough water and there still unused. i think its like seat belts. at first a I hated wearing them but now i don't even cross a parking lot without first buckling up. "PURE CONDITIONING"

[CATCH AND EAT]

Personally, I think it is a good Idea to mandate the life jacket deal. Natural selection and such dont pay the bills when daddy is dead and so is big o'l cusin Gus.

I started wearing a seat belt 14 years ago and now feel naked without one on. Got to thinking about all those cars that come into the shop with melon marks and hair still sticking to the windshield. Two months after I started wearing the belt I had an accident on I205 near Glisan going 50 mph. Seatbelt save my life!

PFD's are ok by me. :smile:

[Seefood Man]

I just have one thing to say about this.
If you think a PFD is bulky, uncomfortable or hot,,,you might want to take a look at the latest line of coffins.

[TheRogue]

:grin: :grin: :grin: :grin:

How about cheeseburgers, fries and high cholesterol? My cholesterol level worries me WAY more than wearing a PFD. <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">:grin: :grin: :grin: :grin:

[boater]

i make everyone wear a pfd on my boat, the people i take out fishing are my responsability just the same as if i was driving a car with them in it, if my boat goes down and one of my passengers drown because they were not wearing a pfd i would probly end up living in a cardboard box after i had the **** sue`d out of me, id like to hear some reasons people would tell a judge and a jury as to why your passengers were not wearing a life jacket while crossing a bar or being in the ocean after one of them drowns ????, ya i know, shut up boater.

[AngleThis]

Yes, they should be mandatory....and we all should be required to wear diapers in case of a nice wet fart.

[Thumper]

********* --- You are a real class guy.

[Flatfish]

Paddlefish,
I agree with you.A few more decades would be nice.But we all get it sometime.I am concerned with the saftey of those on my vessel.
I work in a relatively dangerous profession, and have seen the shadow of the reaper once :shocked: .That said IF I HAD TO CHOOSE,I stick to my original statement.
If you choose to wear one then feel free.But my judgement of danger and someone elses may differ,therefore I don't mind anyone wearing one if it makes them feel safer.I will have one on a bar crossing, or in a big rapids.
If you choose to wear one thats great for you, but don't force your opinions on me.
See you on the rivers.
Mark.

[Pete]

Truth be told, it's likely to be a personal choice whether it's regulated or not since there just isn't enough enforcement to make it happen. That said, I resisted using a PFD for a long time. Then, one day on the ocean, near where Ted Howell flipped, I found an abberant wave ... the seas had been about 3 feet, but this one came through at about 12. I almost needed the mandatory diapers! I was out by myself that day, so I had time to start thinking about who would help me if I bonked my head. Answer: no one. I put my Type III on at that point, discovered it was neither uncomfortable or unsightly and I've worn it on the blue ever since.

I recently started wondering if there were vests that didn't have the scratchy nylon coating my does. No further than the latest boating catalog I found a Sterns brushed twill Type III vest that doesn't even look like a PFD. It's starting to look like a fashion statement!

[ampersat]

i don't have my boat yet, but when i get it i'm going to have a little sign made:

my boat, my rules. don't like my rules, get out of my boat.

seat belts in vehicles: good idea. helmets on motorcyclists: good idea. making them mandatory: maybe so. motorcyclists have fought and will continue to fight against mandatory helmet laws. when and if they succeed, others will rail against seat belts in vehicles and maybe they'll win too. perhaps we can get rid of safety locks for handguns while we're at it.

bottom line on life vests: they're not mandatory yet. for those that want to, make them mandatory in your boat. it's your choice. for those that don't, let's pass a law that your survivors can't ask for public assistance to support themselves because the major breadwinner of the family was too macho to take a little extra precaution. if you're riding the fence but worried what your macho friends will say, get the auto sospenders and wear them under your burly flannels. you might as well get can wraps and cover over your alcohol free beer so that they look like coors and bud light.

[Flatfish]

Paddlefish,
Sorry I didn't mean to jump on you.Just tired of Uncle Sam telling me how to live.
See you on the river.
Mark.

[Terry H]

You guys--- As in my previous post, SOSpenders are real easy to wear.The hardest thing about them is the 150 bucks or so it takes to get them on the boat.
My guess is that any of our loved ones would buy them [fathers day?]rather than loose a friend or a father or a dad .
Think about it.

[Keta]

*********,
Will Depends count an diapers? :grin:

[AngleThis]

What difference does it make whether the law requires cotton turbines, plastic throw aways, or maxi pads...it's all equally stupid of an idea and equally invasive of our freedoms. Shame on the poster of this topic. To even debate it is apauling. At least it could have been prefaced with "During small craft advisory conditons... or during thunderstorms...or if the boat is sinking...or if you require assistance tieing your shoes". I trust I have made my point.

[AngleThis]

[ 05-21-2002, 09:20 PM: Message edited by: ********* ]

[Keta]

*********,
I agree with you 110% :smile: .

[STGRule]

Well, I disagree with Angle 110%. But only because of his attitude. I don't think they should be mandated simply because it would cost too much to make stupid people follow a law. I agree that no surviver should obtain public funds do to the stupidity of the dead. Maybe we should just make people who don't want to wear a PFD post a couple million dollar life insurance policy in lieu of having to wear one. Give the idiots a choice. They're happy to not wear one, I'm happy to not pay for their stupidity.

[Keta]

I think that everyone should be responsible for themselves and not have society come to there rescue. Ie. NO Welfare! :mad:

[AngleThis]

It is not illegal to wear a PFD. So if you think you or anyone else on your boat needs one, you are the skipper; Order it up. And be sure to tell your insurance company all about it. Just don't mess with my or anyone elses right to choose.

I know, why don't we have water guards?....at each and every dock and ramp...to inventory everyone on and off of the water, certify vessels, tighten PFD's, check ID's, sieze alcholic beverages, do emissions checks, and issue spankings to offenders. Bank anglers of course, because of the slippery rocks, should be required to wear shore teathers, operate in preregistered and state approved triads with one person on dry land at all times, to cry for help in case someone gets wet. After all, its safer... isn't that what government is for???

[ 05-21-2002, 10:24 PM: Message edited by: ********* ]

[Salmonator]

Lets have burger king or mcdonalds ask for proof of health insurance before they are served. Lets have the liquor stores demand proof of health insurance when people buy whiskey or cigarettes. I have three family members from my grandfather to my dad who have died from heart disease due to eating and smoking habits. This isn't just about my family. I know of many friends, aquaintances and family members that have either died or have been stricken with diseases due to lifestyle. I have met MANY avid boaters over the years and do not personally know one person that has drowned in a boating accident. Everybody is so intense on this for a few reasons. The first is that it is an extremely sad, tragic thing to happen to anybody. But mostly because it hits so close to home for all the people on this BB simply due to the nature of the accident. This event is no less tragic than a person suffering from or dying of any sickness, in some cases less tragic than some of the horrible cancer cases that I've seen some people suffer through before being overcome by it. It is a fact that your life can be prolonged by avoiding fast food, cigarette and booze. So think about that each time you go through micky d's drive through after pushing your opinions on the way anyone else wants to live their life.

[AngleThis]

As a former beach (with actual waves) lifeguard, I can attest to the fact that Pilar is absolutely correct. Most drownings occur when someone hits the water unconcious or is knocked unconcious in the water. Virtually all exceptions involve either a lack of understanding of water movements, gross overestimation of one's stamina, or alchohol/drugs.

Furthermore, loss of conciousness while wearing a PFD is more than 50% fatal...one just floats and face plants. Very few PFD's will hold your head out of the water for very long, and even if it does, the first time a little water splashes into your mouth and you inhale it, your epiglotis closes up tight, and your problems all go away.

You can dissagree with my attitude but you can't dissagree with common sense.

[ 05-21-2002, 10:32 PM: Message edited by: ********* ]

[STGRule]

I'll take the more than 50% chance. It's 100% without the PFD.

[AngleThis]

If your boat sinks instantly, far from shore, with no communication or other boats around, and in cold water or if you can't swim, yes..then it's 100%. I'll take my chances with knowing how to swim and half a brain. :hoboy:

[DF]

So.. you say you'll take your chance's knowing how to swim and having half a brain?
Your kind of putting yourself on a very high pedestal angle.

So are you trying to say if the clients on Ted's boat had half a brain they would still be alive?
Just because you get lucky in the ocean dosent mean you know everything
Sorry man, even the most experianced people can die.
Experiance is no excuse for COMMON SENSE graemlins/stupid.gif

[STGRule]

Furthermore, loss of conciousness while wearing a PFD is more than 50% fatal <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Loss of conciousness is 100% fatal without a PFD. I'd like to see you swim to shore while unconcious. Oh, 'scuse me, forgot who I was talking to. You probably could.

[DF]

I think I will take the 50% chance rather than 100% guaranteed death.
Life = more important than your pride or what you think you know.
Don’t be a MANLY MAN like we all try to.
Just put the PFD on and be proud your showing your kids that you are truly the intelligent responsible person that all adults should be.

[AngleThis]

Then why bother with them?...to make your corpse easier to find?

[Paddlefish]

Flatfish:

No offense perceived or taken.

Actually,I'm not advocating mandatory regulations at all.

See my earlier post about "Safety."

Heck, I received a warning citation on Nehalem Bay with my canoe when the local enforcement officer didn't think my Type III PFD, worn on my body at the time, qualified as an adequate number of devices. :whazzup: (It took me a week to ferret out of the Marine Board that he was "confused.")

Have you checked out the Angling Reg synopsis lately?!? The last thing we need is more rules -- especially when they mandate "something we should have learned in kindergarten."

The sad case of the dentist in the Eugene area last week is a wonderful/horrible example. Flat water, low speed, disappeared dad. :depressed: And his two young sons got to watch their dad die. Tragic to see it happen. Stupid to see it happen again.

His kids were properly secured in their PFDs. "Given the conditions," he wasn't. Sound like fifteen overly macho posts you've already read here?

It's also too easy to casually smirk about "natural selection" or "thinning the gene pool," until it's your brother or teenage son who was "selected" by no fault of his own in a freakish accident. And those "thinned" don't just disappear. Too often they end up in a "long term care facility" where you and I pay the monthly rent for the next 20 years. (And I can think of a yahoo or two whose rent I'd rather not be paying. :hoboy: )

When I'm cutthroat fishing on the not-so-mighty Trask tidewater or getting my aerobic workout with a 24-inch-wide boat at 7 AM, a PFD is not high on my "want" list. What message do I want to be sending to any 8-year-old who happens to see me, however?

Let's raise the standard. Why should putting on the PFD be any less important than installing the drain plug? Which assets do we choose to protect and which are we willing to risk?

How 'bout this: "When I grow up," :grin: I want to be just like those awesome fish-catching, net-waving, sardine-wrapping, hook-setting, banana-eating, PFD-wearing ifish gods!! :cool:

[Dan Christopher]

i am agents it, even though it would be nice to see everyone ware them.but i hope((((hope :whazzup: ))))
that when you have someone else's kid under (18) in your boat you make them where it.i might be hard to tell there parents why you didnt,and there kid is now((dead))step up and buy the co2's and you wont look like a fool.i always ware it in the Columbia and i made a deal with the wife that i will ware it in the sandy to.its just so darn hard there because i don't think i could drowned in that river in the summer if you hit me on the head first. :rolleyes:

[Hogmaster]

A bit of reflection here...

So, I got home kinda late after work yesterday but decided to go take the Red Sled out anyway for awhile. I chose to run the first rapid up the Clackamas to see if I could snake out some salmonoids from the deep hole above the white water. (see the post about giving fishermen a bad name...)

The river changes almost daily there because it is effected by 1) the flow of the Clackamas, 2) the flow of the Willamette which affects the amount of water that "backs up" into the Clack and 3) believe it or not, the amount of water they are releasing at BONNEVILLE! The Columbia affects the Willamette flow which affects the Clack, at least through that first rapid.

Anyway, last year I had a boating accident there when my throttle cable broke right in the middle of the rapid! Very dangerous situation. Went from red line RPM to idle instantly. Total loss of boat control and the boat slid sideways into a Volkswagon sized rock and slammed hard. My buds Reel Dick and Donny were in the boat and all three of us nearly went swimming. Big dent in the boat was the result and I lost most of the fishing season last spring while the boat was in the shop. Maybe that is why I am choosing to fish so much this spring...

Anyway, they must have been letting extra water out of Bonneville today because the Willamette was higher (never good for the bite BTW). But the rain last night and today also rose the Clack. It made for a VERY bumpy ride up the first rapid and, while the big rock was almost totally submerged, the water was frothing big time.

My boat has no steering wheel, rather, both motors are steered via "tillers" (the handle attached to the motor directly). The big motor is 100HP, so it is a load to steer under full power.

OK OK I ramble. Anyway, I almost got bounced out of the boat tonight! I was in mid air looking at my life preserver in the front of the boat like a dumba$$! I now remember I promised to myself that if I ran that stretch, especially alone, I would wear a life preserver. Made that promise a couple of years ago after a bumpy ride then.

Almost paid last night for ignoring my own mandate...

No worse for wear, just a little shaken. Wasn't worth it either as the fish weren't biting. I eventually came back down the Clack and went out into the Willamette across from Clackamette. Didn't catch any there either, but almost all the other boaters were gone by then and so I watched a family of Beavers - 3 adults and a couple of younger ones - working along the river bottom land. They were really fun to watch, along with the Herons, Osprey, and Bald Eagle I saw. Nice recharge anyway...

All the while I kept thinking how common sense can take a back seat to the fishin' mission. As I posted earlier, I am against regulations requiring PFDs, but I think the macho and careless attitudes some of us exhibit need to be changed. If we don't get safer then there WILL be legislation enacted.

[ 05-23-2002, 10:51 AM: Message edited by: Hogmaster ]

[rhansme]

NO!

[Jim]

I have been doing a lot of thinking on this and have read every post. While fishing the Columbia it seems about every other trip I am checked either at the ramp (oregon launches) or on the water by some form of enforcement whether that be Oregon Police, Fish and Wildlife, Coast Guard etc...Seems we are already paying for a fair amount of enforcement...I am inclined therefore to say make PFD's mandatory on the Columbia or any other waters deemed navigable by the Coast Guard.

Jim

[TundraIII]

Remember, this whole topic was started because of the guide boat that went down last weekend. I didnt read any comments from people in regards to wether the captian of that boat should have made his clients put on PFDs'. From the reports of friends who were in the area that weekend, the conditions warranted being fully prepared. The water conditions were bad way before that boat went down and yet the captian hadnt made his passengers put on life jackets. All I read was "Ted has more ocean experience than anyone I know" , "He's a great fisherman", "He's been over that bar more than anybody". I dont care who he is or wether he's a great guy he should have made sure his people had their PFD's on. There is an outfit in the Siltcoos Recreation Area that has large dune buggy's which can be chartered by individuals and large groups. Do you think that they give their passengers a choice between wearing seat belts or not? Picture a 10 seat dune buggy in a roll over were no one is wearing a seat belt. Now picture the liability of the driver and the owner of the buggy. As a boat owner
I may not always wear or require my passengers to wear a PFD but in bad (or increasingly dangerous conditions) and ALWAYS while in the ocean or going over the bar I will demand the wearing of a life jacket.

[Tinman]

No, life jackets should not be mandatory. I don't want boaters getting citations for "violations" on sunny days on warm lakes in good weather. That being said, life jackets are mandatory on my boat, period.

[TheRogue]

Bad for you, I think we'll just outlaw these.

Big Mac.....
Whopper.....
French Fries....
Milk Shakes....
Candy Bars....
Beer....
Wine....
Vodka....
Cigarettes....
Cigars....

And frivolous stuff:

Swimming pools....
Gokarts....
Airplanes....
BOATS......

Where do we draw the line?????????

[Fish Hunter]

....guns
....motorcycles

How about some freedom of choice folks.
Feel strongly about pfds? WEAR ONE!

In the words of Fish-Rat "nuff said"

[Firedog]

Do you think making this a law will make people wear them? NO. The seat belt law is in effect and there are plenty of people who don't wear them. It is against the law to speed does that keep people from speeding? NO. The list goes on.
Common sense is the biggie here, I don't wear my PFD all the time but when things start to look like it isn't a good situation I put mine on. On the ocean, in the rivers and also in my Driftboat. I know there are plenty of surprises out there but that is my choice. If I was coming across the bar on a marginal day I would have my PFD on, MY CHOICE. You aren't going to change the ones that don't ever wear them, just not going to happen. I have been to plenty of Car wrecks where passengers weren't wearing seat belts, I was to one a while back where neither child was in a car seat, that's a law now also. Both kids are now going to pay for that because the Mother didn't have any sense.
There are hundreds of things that are dangerous that people need to be protected from. Should it be a law that every home have a smoke detector, probably. Is it no. Do we recommended that everyone have one yes. Should everyone eat healthy foods and exercise an hour a day to reduce stress and heart problems and all the other things that go with unhealthy lifestyle, yes. Is it a law because if everyone did this health care costs would go down and people would live longer. NO. Big brother has his hands in enough things that we do. Do we get complacent if we are doing something we have done hundreds of time before yes and that is when things get dangerous, keep on your toes when you are in a situation that can potentially kill you or hurt you . Everyone just needs to exercise a little COMMON SENSE.

[Jim]

Firedog,
Little disappointed here but to their own opinion. My dad is a retired fire chief and was the chief lobbyist to get motorcyclists to wear helmets here in Washington. He was the chief lobbyist to get mobile homes structural standards to a safe level. I guess I come from a line that believes that a law that can save a life is a good law but I guess I was raised that way. I have pulled three bodies out of the water over the years...all without flotation....one three years ago was an ironman triathlon competitor.

This is an interesting thread, I am learning as we go.

Jim :cheers:

[Firedog]

Jim, What I am saying is making a law isn't going to make the people without common sense change. They will still be the ones that have to be pulled out or body recovery because they wont be wearing PFD's. Laws don't make people any smarter. Laws that are in effect on the streets are a lot easier for law enforcement to enforce and there are still plenty of people who don't obey them. There is a lot less police or Coast guard presence on the water. why don't we go with a full float suit? that is a lot safer than just a PFD. I have pulled dead bodies out of car wrecks because they weren't wearing seat belts and that is a law, didn't save them. Don't think because just because it is a law it is going to save everyone. I see a lot of death that could be prevented through diet and exercise are we going after that one next? I see people hurt just because they don't have any common sense are we going to make that illegal to do stupid things? I guess we all would be guilty at one time or another!
Don't judge me thinking I don't want people to be safe, because if I didn't I wouldn't be in the line of work that I am in, or very good at it and I am very good at my job. I do my job because I like to be able to help. I come form a long line of Firefighters, Grandfather, father and Uncle. Between the four of us we have seen plenty of death and senseless deaths. A lot are avoidable some are not. Education will save more people than laws

[ 05-24-2002, 06:47 AM: Message edited by: firedog ]

[Hoosier Daddy]

Not mandatory. But should you wear them?
Duh.

So if you're sure you can swim to shore without a PFD, what is going to prevent you from doing so WITH one? Absolutely nothing. Just that you instantly increase the range your macho ass can swim, that's all. Oh yeah, they're worthless.

Wouldn't catch me dead in one. EXACTLY.
But you might catch me dead without one, once I bloated up and floated up, that is.

Geez.... What's the big deal? You think you look that "uncool" wearing a jacket? Get a freakin float coat. I wonder how many cool looking dead guys the CG pulls out every year?

I don't wear one all the time when on a boat. But I do wear them all the time on a moving boat. Fine, sit back and say "look at the doofus with the life jacket". And when they dredge you up we can put that on your tombstone, "At least he didn't look like a doofus". Go ahead and not wear it, I really don't care, but don't continue this ******** about how they are so unnecessary and REAL men don't wear them. REAL men (and women) don't leave their wives-husbands-kids-etc. without them for the sake of looking cool.

So go ahead and macho up, when you're gone, we can all talk about how cool you were. Toughguys.

[ 05-23-2002, 12:15 PM: Message edited by: chnookie ]

[CATCH AND EAT]

Ya know, that extra few minutes of staying afloat could be the difference of staying alive or being crabbait. (no offence Crabbait). Besides Stearns makes an awesome inflatable suspender setup that is very comfortable and you do not even know you have it on. It is a pain to put on, but once on no biggy.

Now BOE may want to just try the inflatable belt. It should be sufficient since it will ride just below his chin :shocked: :wink: Just kidding.

I think seat belts are good, bike helmets, cycle helmets, and life jackets. I do not think there should be a huge fine for not having one on but I do believe they should be required.

Angle This I would be curious to see how long you would last out there without a life jacket in big blue. Your Channel swiming days are over and this is not Catalina type water. Do not think of this as a choice, rather think of it as a chance. A chance to stay alive. I have three kids and a wife. Life would not be the same without Daddy around. :smile: