Seals and Sea Lions

[Hilo]

I have been a member of several fishing forums for only a short time. In that short time I have been astonished at people's opinions on what should be done about problems with NW fisheries. The most astonishing is the approach people believe should be taken towards Seals and Sea Lions. In a nutshell it has been Kill em all!

I understand that these creatures do the NW fisheries no favors in terms of conservation but does that give humans the right to destroy them? I have heard (on other forums) people brag about how they have killed them knowing that they are protected under federal law. Am I so far out of touch with this issue or is this absurd to others as well?

[husker]

welcome hilo......i am no expert.....but when sea lions and seals.....follow salmon to areas where fishermen are or to where dams have been created and use those areas for killing fields...then something has to be done to recreate the pro quo created by nature.....

sure is funny how they wait for a fish to hooked and then eat it off your line as several people have testified to here......

then there's that sea lion in seattle hanging out at ballard locks wiping out entire populations of steelhead.....

i do not agree with killing seals freely.....but letting them ruin our salmon runs.....because of an abundance of easy killing means something should be done

seal and sea lions are not afraid of humans or there boats....1 or 2 dead seals and i bet the waters clear quickly

[ 04-23-2002, 11:18 AM: Message edited by: husker ]

[Phish_on]

http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:DBjZXuQlzIUC:webhome.idirect.com/~kendaly/can%2520of%2520worms.jpg

[Hilo]

I figured it was a loaded question and amounted to opening a can of worms. I guess I am looking for a voice of reason and have yet to find one that is palatable to my own conscience!

I suppose that is my own problem!

It is still good for me to see and hear other people's opinions on the issue, otherwise how could I become fully aware of what the issue really is?

[Hilo]

Husker-

One could argue that we built the damns and we build the boats that provide easy access for the Seals and Sea Lions to their natural food source. Is this their problem?

Have we not done more damage to the fish populations of the NW rivers by damning the rivers and polluting them with our boat traffic?

I personally fail to see how it is the Seals or the Sea Lions fault and find no justification for any killing of these animals. Do we not shop at the grocery store because that is is where our food supply "stacks up"?

I realize these arguements are moot points as the situation is what it is. Please do not stop posting your opinions, I for one want to hear them.

[Keta]

There is not too many of us that want to exterminate seals and sea lions, just a reduction in their numbers. Historically NW Native tribes keep their numbers in check. With total protection the populations have boomed and there isa a need to thin them. :grin:

[Torchman]

OK, I'll bite! "MOST" of my experience with seals is in a "past life"....(PRE CG) I ran charters in SoCal for years, and watched the problem get worse and worse. And "may" have even taken "photos" of the problem with a telescopic lens... :cheers: The MMPA of 1972 (Marine Mammal Protection Act) escalated the problem. I watched seals swith from preying on mackeral, etc..(NORMAL seal chow) to feeding on rockfish....
A COMBINATION of not enough fish/too many seals. WE, too, are to blame. Heck, I dont know the answer. I DO know that on any given day, I count over 100 sea dogs on the River. I personally think this is WAY too many :mad: But, greater minds than mine are good with this??? Bottom line??? If you "Take Photos"....it could be 10 years with Bubba.... :rolleyes: I guess this is kinda pointless....I just hate seadogs!!!! Next topic...Cormorants!!!! (aka..."Flying RATS!!!!) They kill MORE than SEALS ever thought of!!!!!

[Mack Slayer]

My main issue is the lengths to which we go to protect one element in the ecosystem (i.e., furry mammals with big eyes), while not putting in like protections for the other predators & prey of the food chain. Thanks to all of the federal protections, the seals, seal lions and otters have experienced explosive growth. However, we have not instituted like protections for sharks, which are being completely over-fished throughout the world. Net-net is that we have many furry mammals eating up salmon/steelhead/abalone, but most* the traditional predators are being over-fished.

Bottom Line: We need to trap/eliminate the nuisance animals, or put in real protections for the predators up the food chain.

[* Referring to sharks, not Orcas, which already enjoy decent protection.]

-Mack

[finclipped]

Any resemblance to the "natural" order is gone. It was gone with a new dam system. Anyone remember the "June Hogs" that beat themselves to death against a newly constructed Grand Coulee Dam? It was gone when we put 20 million people in area that only supported a couple hundred thousand. It was gone when they started netting the rivers in the 1860's. It was gone when we started hatchery supplementation system, logged the forest, etc........

We regulate the amount of smolts that travel down the river, we regulate the amount of silt deposited in the "pools", we regulate the water flowing down the river. We even gave terns an unnatural island that made it easy for them to feast on smolts.

Why not regulate the number of pinnepeds and the easy access we have given them to the salmon?

[ 04-23-2002, 11:45 AM: Message edited by: finclipped ]

[TundraIII]

I have to say that I agree with all of you. :grin: (just keepin the peace). Personally I dont keep a gun on my boat, but if a sea lion gets within bonkin range ......... :wink: I guess I gotta catch a fish first tho.....

[Hilo]

Aside from sharks and orcas, what else is a natural predator of Seals and Sea Lions? Please don't tell me humans I'm not that gullible! :smile:

[Lured In]

Finclipped I think you almost got there with the food chain thought. Yes we built the dams, yes we supplement the food base with hatchery fish and yes we prevent the control of a predator in the food chain. This is the same cry that hunters have expressed in some areas over cougar populations.

If left unchecked and unsupplemented by hatchery fish, the sea lion population would radically reduce the population of salmon/steelhead until there was not enough foodbase. (Notice I said reduce, not elimiate salmon/steelhead). Eventually the sea lions would go elsewhere or would die off from a lack of food and thus return the balance of predator and prey.

I highly doubt that scenario will take place. An simple, albeit uncomfortable for some, solution is a calculated and continued management of sea lion populations, just like cougars. This will help restore some of the balance and improve the populations of salmon and steelhead in coastal waters. This; however, is not the only solution that needs to be applied to this problem. It is merely one that deals with coastal interactions.

[ 04-23-2002, 11:54 AM: Message edited by: Lured In ]

[Torchman]

Mack....BINGO!!!!!
I see these photos of "weepy eyed seals" on the "enviro-****" sites..... DO NOT GO THERE!!!!
These are VICIOUS ANIMALS!!!! Ever tried to service a buoy that they have "claimed"??? They dont have tears or "weepy eyes"!!!! :grin: I have a VERY healthy respect of "direct confrontation"...As should ANYONE here....

[Pilar]

Well I guess when we really understand how all the different populations of fish and predators interact we can meddle effectively. Right now every thing done causes a problem somewhere else.

It seems like a man made problem. Man made some changes and caused the sea dogs to prey on the salmon in the places of opportunity.

The MMPA removed fear of humans as a deterrent. Why would you not hunt sea lions on a limited basis the same way you hunt bear or cougar or coyote? Restore fear as a deterrent. If you did this hunting in the places where the salmon slaughter occurs then the Sea lions would clear out. Not perfect but IMHO the population on some Pinnipeds is artificially too high.

[BottomFeeder]

I don't see what harm would be done to having a controlled bow hunt season for Seals and/or Sealions during the smelt run. Just think, you could apply for a tag go out early in the cold mornings of February and by 9:00am you could be towing a worthless salmon eating seal carcass back to the dock with arrows protruding out of every square inch of its body. It's not like if you chopped that sucker up (or put it through a giant tree shredder on a floating barge) and distributed its biomass back into the river would be doing any harm. Hell, crawdads or other little fish could eat the pieces. Then sturgeon could eat those little fish/crawdads and Viola' We'de have more and fatter sturgeon and less Seals.

I think one of the happiest days of my life was in Nehalem bay one year crabbing. I almost ran my boat into what I thought was log floating 1/2 submerged in the water. Upon closer examination I discovered it was very dead Sea Lion. To think about how many Salmon that sucker would not be eating and also how many crabs it dead body was going to feed once it sank nearly brought tears to my eyes.

TPM

[Hilo]

I'm sure the taxidermists are chomping at the bit for this kind of opportunity. I wonder how many fierce poses they can come up with?

Just imagine the "hunting" stories on these fiscious animals. "shot mine point blank while it sunbathed on the buoy!" "Man was I scared!".

I only jest obviously! It does pose the question of what do we do with the dead ones??? Perhaps there is a market in Asia for them?!?!?!? I'm sure if we could find an economical incentive it wouldn't take long for us to harvest them!

[BottomFeeder]

Hilo,

Grind them up man and then shoot them into the river or in the Estuary in Astoria. You know how many Dungeness could be fed on 100 large Sealions?
More than you can shake a stick at!

TPM

[Hilo]

Then we'll have an overpopulation of crab! Who knows what damage that will cause to the ecosystem!

The natural response to that is humans will eat the crabs, but that won't address the issue of that many crabs being their in the first place.

I'm sure it sounds logical but do we know it really would be? I'm sure the federal laws against hunting Seals and Sealions "sounded" logical.

[Blondie]

Sea dogs? More like Sea HOGS! I admit to being a big time critter lover, but these particular critters have grown to be a big annoyance. They not only have no fear of humans, I'm sure if given the opportunity they would attack for a salmon! In the Longview to Cathlamet area they are becoming so fearless, they are taking fish right out of nets. My husband had one fail to steal his fish, and circled our boat for 10 minutes barking and snorting at us. Those were hateful eyes by the way. How long until one does hurt someone? They need to learn fear again! :mad:

[MP]

Usually I just read this stuff but I'll set the hook on this issue as it has come up so many times.

We are the problem. We caused it by building the damn dams. :rolleyes: If we want to rectify the situation the we need to remove the dams and take it in the shorts on the power bills or start getting very serious about alternative power sources. Until we restore the river to its original start (as much as is possible at this point in time) we are going to have this problem. I do not believe that killing a couple (or a hundred) of these animals will help. More will move in when they are gone.

Animals (including humans) will always take the easiest solution to a problem if more than one solution is available. It is only natural. Do you grow all your food and milk your own cows rather than going to the local market? That is the same thing that these seals are doing only on a basic instinctive level. I do not blame them. I blame us. We created the problem now we must find a solution (WITHOUT HARMING THE ANIMALS).

Now I am not an extreme environmentalist and I certainly don’t expect the dams to come down. I do not have a solution to the problem. Just an opinion as to what the problem is.

Mark

[garyk]

Consider this angle...

What fish species (other than salmonids) are the pinnipeds eating that are themselves predators of smolts and adults?

Are the seals helping to keep in balance the various bottomfishes that would otherwise be gorging on smolts? Same with the various perches and bay fish?

All these creatures, (except jetski drivers - which are unanimously acknowledged as one of god's few mistakes), have a place and a role here.

The fact that we don't know how all the pieces fit into the puzzle of life should make us humble in our approach.

[ 04-23-2002, 03:59 PM: Message edited by: garyk ]

[rockfish]

hilo straight up, your a chump tree hugger graemlins/stupid.gif

[TheRogue]

Seals and sealions are extremely intelligent. It wouldn't take to many "floaters" to make the rest of them figure out they need to stay away!!

Micromanaging some species...salmon, steelhead, etc.,....while not managing AT ALL others which affect those species is quite ludicrous and the classic government FUBAR.

The only difference between those pinnipeds which feed at the man-made dams and at the backs of "tangle-tooth" net boats, and the dreaded ********* (oops, I mean Northern Pikeminnow) is that seals are cute, and Pikeminnow are not.

[Phish_on]

If we just killed all the humans, the natural balance would eventually be restored.

I wouldn't object if you were to shoot a few pinnapeds in certain places where they have the easy picken's on salmon and steelhead.

I won't be shooting any.

[Hilo]

Rockfish,

Thanks for the intelligent response! Calling me a tree hugger adds nothing to the discussion. SHould you know who I am you would probably not have that opinion. I am merely out to attain as many opinions about the topic as I can to help formulate my own opinion. If that makes me a tree hugger fine!

I would prefer if you could keep your name calling to yourself!

[Torchman]

Tree Hugger!!! :smile:

[Torchman]

Bark Lover!!! :grin:

[Torchman]

Limb Lover!!!!!! :grin:

[fish_on]

It's just like wolfs in Idaho. I have a friend in Stanley ID, the elk use to come down and eat in his field all spring and summer just 3 years ago. In the last 2 years the wolfs have gotten so thick he hasn't seen the elk, his cows have become the prey now. There are certin species on earth at we can do without, seals, wolfs, wacko enviros :wink: , and so on. Just like the wolf problem, the seal problem will go on untill a Senators kid gets killed. If you want to solve the problem take a Kennedy fishing and tie a salmon to their ankle. Then take one camping in the Sawtooths, pitch the tent near a cattle heard. The problem would be solved real fast. :grin:

[Torchman]

Just pullin' yer leg, Hilo!!! I agree...a problem with NO EASY answers... :hoboy:

[Hilo]

I figured Torchman!

I probably should not have stuck my newbie nose in such a muddled issue as this! I should expect the name calling (though the point is lost on me) as it is a much heated topic!

In truth "tree hugger" is not such a bad name to be associated with as long as it is not "enviro-****" or "enviro-terrorist" one shouldnt complain too much.

In the fishing and hunting community ( which I am a member of) "tree-hugger" carries such a negative connotation. Hence my defensiveness.

[Torchman]

Thank you for doing so!!!
NEVER be afraid of asking a question!!!!
OK, I jerked on your leg....but you started a GOOD post!!! Thanks!!

[crabbait]

I'm not so sure about this Hilo fellow. Me thinks he seeks to stir the pot for the stirrin' sake.

One could say this and One could say that. I, for One, find these truths to be self evident:

We caused the problem by meddlin' with the ecosystem.

We are not about to stop meddlin'.

We are unwilling accept the economic and "life style" impacts of environmentally sound policies.

We cannot attain a balanced ecosystem by saving any one species to the detrement of another.

When we eliminate or decimate any predator then we must also do the work of that predator, i.e., Great White Sharks and Orcas.

What does all that mean? That we will continue to try to address the problems that we created because we cannot stop anymore than the circus performer can stop spinning plates.

Reducing the out of control numbers of seals and sea lions will either be done humanely by man or inhumanely by mother nature when food resources will not sustain the young on the calving grounds.

Hilo, if you want your posts taken more seriously then have the courage to post your e-mail address.

No flame intended, one's proper use of "attain" is as above. You meant "obtain". :grin: :grin: :grin:

[Hilo]

neilhess@hotmail.com courage had nothing to do with my decision not to publish my email address, but there it is if you think I somehow become more courageous by posting it.

It was not meant to stir the pot for the stirrin sake. It was meant to give me an understanding of what opinions and what beliefs are out there?!

Sorry to have confused you with my attain/obtain mistake! I never claimed to be an English major.

[blacktail]

Perchmaster, LMAO!!!! :smile:

[stlhdh2o]

crabbait -

In my experience the best questions are the ones that "stir the pot", increasing the dialogue on subjects that need stirring. In order to form a valid opinion one must solicit the opinions of both sides of the issue.

I question your motives in questioning Hilo's motives...Trying to minimize the impact of his question by inferring ulterior motives?? Obviously not interested in a rational conversation

[ 04-23-2002, 08:06 PM: Message edited by: stlhdh2o ]

[crabbait]

stlhdh20 and Hilo - I'm just the suspicious type and I feel that this topic has had all the "opinion" it deserves considering that none of us are in a position to resolve it. Moot. Rhetorical.

Hilo, I salute your courage. Some people get their jollies by seeing how much discontent they can stir on a fishing BB. Others like to log on with several monikers so that they can say things with one personna and not sully their other personna. They are often found out by the repetitious use of words or phrases, like using the third person, one. I take you at your word that this is not the case.

People are very frustrated to see a resource that they treasure wasted by protected mammals that are rapidly outgrowing their niche. Their outrage should not be difficult to understand. To play on that outrage for amusement would be petty.

[Hilo]

I fully understand your skeptical nature. I assure you that I do not have any intentions on playing with anyone's heated emotions. I am, as I have stated before very new to the fishing community and bulletin boards. In this circumstance I have merely been investigating a topic I found interesting on another board.

I was hoping to be able to read many well thought out ideas and opinions on the subject. The "other" bulletin board thread broke down into factions of people attacking and defending ideas. I did not find it very informative. I had hoped that this forum would prove different.

In whole I did hear some new opinions and ideas. I just did not expect to have to defend myself for asking a question (or an improper choice of words) as much as I have had to!?

[crabbait]

crabbait was feeling crabby....sorry

too many seals........not enough fish

peace

[Hilo]

Accepted! My apologies in return for being abrasive. I certainly put my foot into a big pile of $%#^ when starting this thread. I certainly have a better understanding of the issues and the passion behind the opinions!

I will certainly think twice about any more threads I start!

[PittsburghD]

Yeah, Now you know. Oops. Anyway the aruguing that went on last week abou the Springer on... no... Seal On thing was a good one. Basically it is us versus them. Evolution. But it is not the us with big guns obliterating them out of existence. I think it is us somehow outsmarting them and chuckling about it when we are unsuccessful. I do it all the time when I go crabbing. The battle to keep seals out of your trap goes on forever. The best bait is fish, but seals like fish so use mink. Well, they're gross looking and they really don't catch that much, so what do you do. Outsmart the seals, run from the seals, create new anti-seal dances on the boat; whatever it takes to win...peacefully.

____D

[Pilar]

Hilo don't go Rhode Island red on us man. You started a good post and you got some of the opinions you were seeking. You also got some of the font slinging that is so easy to do when the poster is wound up and sitting at a keyboard.

What I am saying is that you should continue to ask the hard questions. The rest of us might learn from it too. Have some fun too. Maybe sling font at some other fool that stepped in the dog doo. You know, what comes around goes around.

Thanks for the chance to learn something.

[Cool Texan]

When good seals go bad...
http://www.ifish.net/uploads/144708100.gif

[Hilo]

I have no problem with the management of these species populations. I do however have a problem with the idea that we should exterminate them becuase they prey on OUR fish and provide no value to the human race.

I am cautious as to how we manage the population! Anytime we (humans) delve in to management of species populations we take serious risks in introducing other issues in an attempt to address one.

[Torchman]

EXACTLEY!!!! :wink:
Even the EXPERTS cannot/will not define the "carrying capacity" of these species..
This is is truly a wormhole....
Everything was fine....until we decided to step in!!!

[stlhdh2o]

Haven't we pretty much pooped all over everything we've tried to manage, especially as it relates to species "management"??

I say open season on anything that harms fish, period. Fisherman fishing with bait where there are smolts present?? Waste 'em. Eagles?? Nuke 'em. Other steelhead fry?? Dynamite 'em.

Seals splat 'em. Fisherman fishing with bait divers?? Shoot 'em. Loggers?? Blast 'em...All their equiptment? Sand in their tanks..Hydroelecrtric dams?? Blow those ******** up!!

How self centered could you possibly be?? The fish are not yours...the resource is not yours...

The guy in front of you in line at the supermarket took the last bag of steaks...shoot him!!

If you were to remove the hatchery fish from the equation would there be enough fish left to draw that kind of pinniped crowd?? I seriously doubt it but I don't hear any of the "kill 'em" proponents suggesting we discontinue supplying them with "their fish".

[ 04-23-2002, 12:54 PM: Message edited by: stlhdh2o ]

[Hilo]

Thanks Pilar for the vote of confidence!