Hatcheries vs. budget cuts

[happybrew]

Personally, I think we need to expand hatcheries, specifically, they need to put them where ever I plan to fish!
:grin:

In addition, I think they should put one on Mill Creek in Salem, so I only need to drive a few minutes from my house to fish. Heck, if they put one there, they wouldn't need to put one anywhere else! I'd vote for it!

I hope it doesn't frighten you too much, Phish On, the fact that I vote. :shocked:

happybrew

[Thumper]

I don't understand. The Oregon budget was scheduled to increase by 12% for the coming biennium. So now it may have to get along with only a 6% increase. And that is a cut?? The governor and his legislative associates are laying a trip on you folks. Sure glad I live in Washington.

[willametteriveroutlaw]

If you close hatcheries, alot of people won't fish as much anymore, then the people who rely on them will lose there jobs. Then the state loses its revenue from income taxes on those people, and the next budget time we lose a few more hatcheries. Instead why dosen't the state cut some of its frivolous spenadtures like funding for artists to paint pictures of midget lesbians hugging trees. Or supporting groups that put up ads damning the ownership and use of guns. Sometimes I wish portland would just get annexed by washington.( no offense to anyone who lives there and reads this page ) Get rid of all of them damn hippy tree huggers and californians who make wildlife decisions based on what feels right other than proven biological fact. And realize who supports the majority of oregons wildlife refuges and resources. Its not fair that one geographically small area of the state can affect the rest of the state. What does a california transplant that lives in an apartment in down town portland know about the problems facing an eastern oregon farmer, or for that matter the small business owner on the coast. Through venting now, removing paper bag from my mouth ahhh.

[ 01-29-2002: Message edited by: wilamatteriveroutlaw ]</p>

[Master Baiter]

Yeah, every problem is the fault of some Californian(s) somewhere, somehow! :depressed:

[happybrew]

I'd be all in favor of consolidating hatchery operations, as long as it results in increased efficiency and does not negatively impact the number of hatchery fish produced. Heck, maybe they ought to contract the hatcheries out to the private sector. If it costs them too much money, maybe they ought to turn it over to people who actually have to make a profit off of it, and thus are forced to operate efficiently. Have the ODFW biologists monitor the quality of the output before they write any checks, of course. Check them for disease, health, genetics, etc. before they set them loose in the rivers. Maybe we could keep the same production for less money, or even increase it.

happybrew

[Master Baiter]

Consolidating hatcheries makes good economic sense BUT you have to be careful. Some diseases can be spread to other basins when the fish are comingled in the same water source. IMHO, it may even introduce more a greater occurence of straying.

[rob allen]

A different take on things

My mother works for the US Government, For the sake of discussion i am going to assume that state governments operate the same way.

She works from home and is constantly getting fed ex and ups packages of communications and supplies. Ever year they send her these little folder/diviver things right now we have about ,I'd guess 30 of them that she will never and her superiors don't want them back (as with all excess supplies) they send her a couple hundred mechanical pencils a year, 4-5 spiral bound day planners. Just recently we did some recyceling of paper products i'd guess I took in 500lbs of paper, most of which have never been read!!!!!
It is no uncommon(happens several times a week) for her to get a priority overnight fed ex letter (from Seattle) that contains a single sheet of paper that could have been faxed or better yed e-mailed to her.

This is why hatcheries close!! because Government Agencies are extremely poorly managed!!! We can have our cake and eat it too but not until this kind of sick perverted wasteful managment is done away with

[Pilar]

Ding! thank you for playing, Rob Allen.

It's really pretty simple. When it's not yours human nature lets you care less about it. So, government, unconcerned about conserving the largesse we the people provide, runs wild. When the supply is not allowed to expand at a 10% rate the screaming and demagoguery come on full force.

We can't do it unless there is more money!!!

Horse - pucky!

[Point-of-Sale Clerk]

If we wish to have our hatcheries run in a more efficient manner we should evaluate carefully their ability to produce “ADULT” returning salmon and steelhead and start closing them one at a time starting with the worst. Having dealt with ODFW on several issues I can think of nothing better to provide incentive for the remaining hatcheries to clean up their act. When closures start hitting a little closer to home many ODFW employees will start to advocate the type of changes that will make a difference. Right now there is zero incentive to make any changes to their historical status quo.

[Nuttinbutnet]

New Campaign for 2002. "WIPE YOUR BUTT FOR FISH".
Nickel a roll tax. We would have more money than we know what to do with. Trust me, if you seen how much of this stuff gets used in my house, sheeeesh! :grin:

[Phish_on]

Don't...ever...say... hippie tree-hugger and "Californian" in the same sentence!!

There is some good stuff here. And some people need to turn off Rush Limbaugh and spend a little more time in the state capitol.

What line item in the budget would the "funding for artists to paint pictures of midget lesbians hugging trees" fall under?? Or "supporting groups that put up ads damning the ownership and use of guns" - do you mean the one that says "please lock up your guns" ?

Mill Creek! Haven't seen salmon in there for several years, last time was before the great flood of '96 - - anybody seen them recently? Legend says a stocking truck broke down on I-5 and either had to dump the fish into Mill Creek or lose them, and the run was introduced!

Your tree-hugging hippie Oregonian pal,

[STGRule]

Happy brew:
The department does farm out some trout production. The salem crew mandated that. It had some problems at first with quality and disease I believe. It is much better now. I don't know if there is a cost savings or not. Since it was a mandate I haven't heard anything one way or the other.

Consolidating may work for some water sheds. Water quality problems becomes a problem when you have facilities that have a finite water source. DEQ monitors waste production at all hatcheries. With out-dated water systems, limited water supplies (falling water tables for springs and wells) you can only produce so many fish at any one facility. Most hatcheries have had very little up-dating in the past. With budget cuts over the last few years, maintenance has fallen to the bottom of the list. Even with some of these problems we still might be able to combine and cut back.

Rob Allen: I would love it if I had the same problem as your mother. We have to watch our pennies very carefully. We keep bailing-wire and bubble-gumming things back together to have what we need.

***; So, lets hear your evaluation of hatchery problems. What exactly are ODFW employees doing wrong or should be doing different to improve hatcheries? What changes are you talking about specifically? And how did you ever come to the conclusion that ODFW employees are satisfied with the status quo? Who are these employees, and how come I've never met any? What are these "several issues" that you have had with the department? I need to hear what the problems were to see how you come to your conclusions. Just as your not going to accept anybody elses opinions without an explanation, I am not going to accept yours without an explanation. I am very interested to hear why you are so bitter. Something bad had to have happened. I'd like to hear it. :whazzup:

[V. Green]

I would have to agree that you can find many examples of bad management in Government Agencies, or at least at the one I work at. However, not all managers are doing a bad job. I have found that most employees try their best and try to save money, normally it just seems as though they get in trouble for trying to.

As for the State budget increasing, remember that costs do go up for all business, homes and for our government also. Think about a 40-50% increase in power, 2-4% increase in wages, increased medical coverage cost, and general inflation in Oregon of about 4%. These costs add up for everyone and every organization. When I hear a 6% increase, I think that probably only covers the increase in energy, wages, and some of the inflation that always persists.

You might also consider that a growing population in Oregon will likely require greater spending on behalf of the state. We still have to pay for each student to go to school, more roads for us all to use, and larger prisons to hold the new Californians moving in (JK) :wink:

Do I want to see cuts in the ODF&W hatcheries? No, but I also don't want to see any schools closed, class sizes increased, reductions in the number of police, or prison cutbacks to name a few. Hopefully the cuts won't be as bad as the Governors worst case budget, but cuts will be made and everyone will likely feel the pinch.

**As for those who think that Portland should have no say in Oregon, you might note that a democracy is one person equals one vote. You might not like it but that is the best system anyone has ever came up with. Remember you can always move to a country in which you have no say.**

V. Green
nwfish@angelfire.com

[Joe]

rob and Pilar,
Do either of you know of any ACTUAL wasted resources involving a State run fish hatchery?

I have never personally observed the wastfulness you are describing. :whazzup:

[Point-of-Sale Clerk]

STGRule

Unlike some, I try to always be willing to put my money where my mouth is. This sometimes leads to the “open mouth insert both feet” syndrome but I feel it is worth the effort.

Here we go…

Double the minimum number of female broodstock used in matrix fertilization protocols

Triple the minimum number of male broodstock used in matrix fertilization protocols, include jack-salmon in the matrix as well.

Require all components of a spawning run to be incorporated in hatchery run. Modify hatchery production schedule to incorporate late spawners.

Allow native diseases that have mortality rates of less than 40% to progress without treatment in hatcheries.

Remove all bird protection from all hatchery-rearing ponds.

Place structure in all hatchery-rearing ponds.

Place unique gravel (from other regions of the country) in the bottom of rearing ponds and collection pools to help provide a more natural setting and to aid in imprinting to reduce straying (unique mineral signature)

Incorporate subsurface feeding at all hatcheries (not the small % we have now)

Vary feeding times greatly with no set amount or pattern. When possible supplement Oregon Moist Pellet with naturally occurring insects (maggots dropping from salmon carcasses hanging above the rearing ponds come to mind…yuck)

Forbid the use of Formalin at all hatcheries to reduce the long-term accumulative chromosomal damage of salmon eggs and fry.

Institute variable release timing to allow hatchery managers the ability to take advantage of favorable river conditions. (change statutorily mandated release date requirements)

Stipulate funding with assurances that straying will be addressed before next fiscal biennium.

Remove requirement for use of Astaxanthin or Canthaxanthin in adult trout (stupid and wasteful)

Require 100% of all salmon or steelhead carcasses be used for stream fertilization or estuary nutrient supplementation. Consider all historical forms of nutrient supplementation and their current reduced level (lamprey)

Do not allow the monies received from the sale of salmon carcasses or other salmon by-products to be used by ODFW or hatcheries. This practice has in the past provided hatchery managers with incentive to return as many salmon back to the hatchery as possible instead of allowing their capture by sport fishermen. ODFW being in the salmon business is wrong. Tossing salmon carcasses into rivers and riparian areas is not a waist.


Flame away…

*** Clerk

[birdhunter]

I've been staying out of this one but....impressive ***. Some very interesting suggestions. I won't comment on the difficulties with their implementations, but in a prefect world (heavy sigh).

I see where your suggestions could be going though. I've heard this before: "Basically imitates a wild setting for lots of cost. Why not just turn use all wild! Same raising process, w/out any cost!"

Totally agree w/ the carcass plants. Fish - go back in the water! How's that for a flame?

[Point-of-Sale Clerk]

birdhunter

thanks...

[ssteelheadsteve]

SORRY GANG METHINKS YOU MISS THE POINT OF NOT FUNDING HATCHERIES.
There are no successful hatchery programs for andromous fish anywhere in the world !
Go ahead name just 1

[Phish_on]

Just to prolong the discussion, but separate from the Trask "petition."

"Everybody wants to go to Heaven, nobody wants to die."
Really - - if you could consolidate hatchery operations and still maintain the same level of fish stocking ... don't you have to consider the possibility of closing some facilities? Might you not save some money by expanding operations at some places and eliminating some others?

The "Devil's Advocate" wants to know! Every body of water doesn't need its own hatchery, y'know!

What's your solution - you either have to raise revenue or cut services. It will be a combination of both, so ...

what services do you want to cut? Schools? Law enforcement? Unemployment? Health?

Where do you want to get more money? Tax on smokes? Tax on drinks? (I like those ... you think smokers are going to stop buying their smokes? Drinkers are going to stop buying their drinks? Not for a few cents, guaranTEE!)

Or do you like "borrowing" from education funds. Budgets are all on paper anyway ... but when you rob from Peter to pay Paul, again and again ... eventually you have to kill Paul, let's face it.

Hatcheries are not a cost-effective solution in the long run. I do like to barbecue Sam Coho, though. What to do? :whazzup:

[Pilar]

It's an old story. The budgets always expand during the good times. There is much wailing and gnashing of teeth during the other times. If you lose focus on this whole thing remember that about 20% of the jobs in this state are government jobs of one sort or another. Hell, it's probably even higher than that now.

[ 01-29-2002: Message edited by: Pilar ]</p>

[Master Baiter]

Steve- Please define successs in your mind?

[STGRule]

***: Thank you, those are biologically sound suggestions. Some are more practical than others, but would have a positive impact. Although I don't know how you could clean a gravel lined pond. Maybe if you incorporated the rock into the concrete it would work.
I am interested in how you would address straying. It happens to some extent in all anadromous fish species (It makes a great survival technique in natural disasters). Do you have ideas on how to reduce it? I've read alot of stuff about it and nobody can agree on the reasons. So it seems it would be all but impossible to address.
Anyway, no feet in any mouth. Great response, thank you.

[WaterDog]

What about this, :rolleyes:

This fall with all the surplus coho, why did ODFW give away all the eggs so someone else could profit from them? Yes the fish were donated to the Oregon Food Bank and that was a good thing. Well, I guess of you enjoy eating boots. :shocked: Anyway the Oregon Food Bank sent the fish to Bellingham to be processed and shipped back. The processor got to keep ALL of the eggs to sell as caviar across the pond. :mad: Why didn't ODFW get a percentage of this profit? If they did it was never in the press.

Now you tree huggin yippie's can say well that was the payment for processing the fish. I say BFS. The fish were a donation, the labor should have been a donation! I bet it didnt cost the processor a couple of cents per lb. to process the fish. :rolleyes:

[Straydog]

"The labor was a donation....." but your ticked because they didn't get paid for the eggs.

In other threads we are discussing how ODFW can be more cost effective and financially sustainable.

Donate labor but by god get paid for the eggs and run more financially responsibly.

No wonder ODFW can make no one happy.

What a long strange trip it is....... :shocked:

[WaterDog]

My point is, here was an opportunity for some extra money, and they gave it away. :rolleyes: Our taxes and license fee’s paid for these fish and what did we get out if it. Nothing. Other than a washington business profited. Yeah I know we got the opportunity to catch them. I guess to you every little bit doesnt help. :whazzup:

And your wondering why nobody can be made happy? :rolleyes:

[Straydog]

We got probably the best fishing we have since the late 70's for the hatchery fish.

As one in the business as well as one that loves to fish, this is a bunch!

My point, and maybe I mis-interpreted your original post, is that it seems you are mad that they turned their back on some income (and I agree) but yet say the labor should be donated.

If that is indeed what you mean, does this not seem a little sideways?

Not trying to be a butt, just wondering.

[WaterDog]

Maybe I wasn’t clear enough. :smile:

I meant the labor from the fish processor not ODFW. Basically the processor filleted the fish for the eggs, which I see as a payment. I want to say the eggs were being sold for $15-20 a pound but I don’t remember. Whatever the price, it was profit for someone and none of that profit got back to the original investors. ODFW should have got a piece of that pie.

[Pilar]

Hi Joe. I don't know much about hatcheries and freely admit that. What I am referring to is government in general. This whining about reduced revenues is part of the the Tax and Spend politics we allow to go on. Popular programs are cut and then a hike in taxes is proposed as a solution. There is a repeating pattern here.

As far as the hatcheries go. I'm looking to the people who actually do this work to teach the rest of us about what goes on. Also to point out what can be done to improve it. *** clerk and STGrule come to mind.

BTW thanks you two for what you have contributed already. All we have to do is read and become smarter.

[Straydog]

Watgerdog,

Ok, I get it and I agree...

Sorry, I misunderstood your point and now that I better understand it I agree!

Every little bit does matter and in my mind it is only with this mentality that we will get ahead.

I learned most I needed to know about business as a kid of 15 in my first job and my boss always preached if you take care of the pennies, the dollars take care of themselves.

Thanks for the even keeled exchange......
:wink:

[hustlerrjim]

A wonderfull bunch of posts,
having visited most of the hatcherys along the coast I have to agree with joe there is NO waste at the hatchery level,
The problem is in portland,with the greenies with in the dept.trying to force their idiotic beleifs onto the lower echelon.
Example?????the radio tagging study showed 50% of the migrating smolts being eaten by a bunch of worthless birds,the greenies in portland who have never been down to see this carnage took the smolt protection program out of the budget the last study showed NO smolts were eaten by birds but 54% of the smolts were eaten by the seal herd at the mouth of nehalem.this is with a smolt protection program in place.
What did the dept do when the feds came out and held a hearing to address the bird program????????
They told the feds they didn't think they had a problem,and did not attend the hearing even tho not one of them had ever been down to see the devastation caused.
the waste is not at the hatcherys,it is caused by the direction being given by people in portland who are ruling the hatchery people like a bunch of war lords in afganistan ,they dont know whats going on at the hatcherys but they have to say something to maintain their job.
how many of you people that have posted have gone to a hatchery,sat down with the crew and see whats going on and what they have to put up with,a hatchery worker cannot even use a state srewdriver for their personal use.Directive from potland
visit your hatchery and I am sure you will have a positive veiw of cost effectivness
Elect me as govenor and I would fire the whole works in portland!!!!!!and I would open season on cormorants,seals, sealions,and tree hugging . hippies, they are all a bunch of parasites

[WaterDog]

:cool: :smile:

[happybrew]

If the hatcheries are not the culprit for government waste, and without knowledge of their operations, I couldn't say that they are, and given the great returns we've had, I'd say get on your legislators to protect their budgets. Do we want hatchery fish? If we do, then we need to protect the hatcheries. Given the impact that sport fishing has on the economy, it is truly a winner for the state of Oregon.

Phish On- I know that tree-hugging hippies are hardworking individuals. Our refrigeration repair guy is a liberal, and he's come out and saved my restaurant's butt on numerous occasions on weekends, late nights, and I've never seen him slack. He's also quite intelligent, for a liberal. Don't worry, I don't blame you for circumstances beyond your control that somehow turned you into tree-hugger. In other circumstances, I could have turned out the same way, and I don't think I'd bear the burden of being a tree-hugger quite as gracefully as you have.

:wink:

happybrew

[Phish_on]

And, hey, some of your best brewers are hippies!

I don't know ... maybe it was the roses.

I just don't find these cultural slurs any more attractive than ethnic slurs. That goes for the blanket category of "liberal" - I am very opposed to giving my money to the government to bail out LOSERS, I don't like the government to waste money ... so I'm a "liberal" (like that's a cuss-word) because I want to keep some of the ancient forests intact - and "some" is all that's left, Maynard.

Preserving the environment is "conservation" so doesn't that make me a "conservative" ?? Is that the opposite of "liberal" ??

Or is it because I like the hoppy pale ale?

I like stout, too!

Diversity, MAN :cool: :cool: :cool:

[happybrew]

Our differences are minor. We are more alike than you think. Because I am pro-life, I get labeled as a conservative. Because you are pro-environment, you get labeled as a liberal. And the rest of what we believe and who we are gets tossed by the wayside. As far as what I believe, I believe I'll have another beer and go fishing in the morning. And I'll thank the State of Oregon for working to manage the fishery, and God for inventing fish, and I'll pray that some misguided legislature doesn't screw it all up.

happybrew

[Phish_on]

4,000 boats around Astoria with a fin-clipped coho in the box suggest some level of "success" :cool:

*** those ideas sound great and EXPEN$IVE.

Waste in state agencies is to a great extent driven by the attempt to comply with the demands created by the legislature, which changes with the winds of special-interest lobbying ...

HEY I AM A TREE HUGGING HIPPIE AND I'M NOT A #@&$%*& PARASITE !!! LAY OFF - I WORK AS HARD AND LOVE FISHING AS MUCH AS ANY HANDGUN-TOTIN' RUSH-DITTOIN' REDNECK BONEHEAD !!

carry on. :mad:

[ 01-30-2002: Message edited by: Phish_on ]</p>