Guides holding runs from the road on the D

[TheWaker]

What's up with that?When the White is blowin,a certain guide who will remain nameless, has taken to holding runs from the road whilst sitting in lawn chairs with clients waiting for the shade. That is such poor behavior I can't even wrap my mind around it.Has every one gone completely loony down there or what?

Man you have a better than average year and everyone just goes bonkers.

When the guides are leading the way with that kind of behavior it's no wonder that everyone else follows suit thinking it's acceptable. Now you see where that gets us. An overcompetitive situation where everyone is on edge and you may have to throw down just to fish.

The North Umpqua is sounding gooooooood to me!


Mark

[T I M]

My friend rode his bike 15 miles up the D this weekend only to be pushed out by guides in their sleds. It seems like bull to me when people cant share a river especially when someone puts out that much effort to fish. One would think that out of all the people on the river the guides would have good ethics. One guide saw him hook a steelhead and pulled right up in front of him. He yelled to the guy to move but to no avail. He said th guy was so close that his fly was swinging right under his boat. They need to make it fly fishing only up that far. Tim

[stoneflyguy]

There was a guide who was guiding out of one of the shops that I do who was doing the same thing on the Kalama. He would have lawn chairs set up for clients and whenever someone would show up to fish he would have his clients get up and plug up the water. He went as far as harassing other anglers who would challenge his tactics. I wouldn't doubt it if we were talking about the same guy as he has started guiding on the D with the husband wife shop, ( no names mentioned ). I think it is unacceptable and very poor business. I would be embarrassed to do business this way and shame on his clients for playing along.

[Hawk]

My friend rode his bike 15 miles up the D this weekend only to be pushed out by guides in their sleds. It seems like bull to me when people cant share a river especially when someone puts out that much effort to fish. One would think that out of all the people on the river the guides would have good ethics. One guide saw him hook a steelhead and pulled right up in front of him. He yelled to the guy to move but to no avail. He said th guy was so close that his fly was swinging right under his boat. They need to make it fly fishing only up that far. Tim


I'm not big into fishing big water like the D, but couldn't you write down the boats registration number and turn them into somebody?

[wedgeman]

They need to make it fly fishing only up that far. Tim

ya don't think so.

[Wild Chrome]

Stonefly,
There's a well-known Maupin fly guide that a fly fisherman I know invited him to get into it in front of his clients b/c of the exact same thing. How do you tip a guide that fights (literally) for your rock to sleep next to, then fish from?

[shouldbehunting]

I don't know why everyone is holding the names back of these unethical guides. I say put out their names and let as many people know not to use them as possible. If you get bad service at a restaurant you tell everyone you know not to go to there; it should be same for guides. But also remember to post those guide services who do a good job and abide by "unwritten rules" and recommend them as much as possible. Hopefully then they'll think twice before acting like they own the river. There's a reason this blog site has quality information attached to it. I have no shame standing by my good or bad reviews of service oriented outfits.

[stoneflyguy]

I don't post a name because it could have negative affects on my business. This guy has been conducting himself like this for quite sometime, It will catch up to him. I just can't believe his clients are OK with this. I hate this behavior because it gives us a bad name as guides and I don't want to be tied into the same shop as the knucklehead.

[mkwerx]

Hm, I do believe that harassing someone who is engaged in fishing or hunting is a specific crime (misdemeanor) here in Oregon. Get the guy's boat numbers/name/phone number and give OSP a call if the guy is pulling crap like that. Eventually something will happen to him, or he'll get enough of a bad rep that no one is going to want to be associated with him or do business with him.

Don't just let this slide because it's a bit of a hassle to get the authorities involved. If what is said is true, the guy is a punk and needs dealt with (legally through official channels, of course.)

Some guy just sitting in a lawn chair overlooking the river can think he's 'holding' said water all he wants. If there's no one actively fishing it - go for it. Aside from throwing a tantrum like a child - what's the guy going to do - especially if he's a fishing guide? If he tried to get physical about things, or vandalize your vehicle - it's going to be pretty obvious who it was that was the problem.

Pretty sad situation when people can't share the water, the fish, and just not be mean to one another on the river.

[wapiteaser]

It must be the guide shop up town. The other one closed and is doing online sales only. This has happened before many times and there have been some serious verbal confrontations. I don't know who they think they are. They only take from the river and never give anything back.

[nunyet]

Just a question? How about if your setting under a tree waiting for the shade to hit the water and have a person step in the run and start fishing? Where do you draw the line on good conduct.

How about how far below you do you expect fresh water, 40 years ago if you could see them it was too close. I used to let one flyfisherman per run from Dike to Locket and expect them to have first water. Times have changed.

There is too many people and not enough places, I feel if someone is not fishing ,just waiting for shade, maybe they should not be upset if someone wants to fish the run in the sun.

Too old to fight but pretty good at getting even:excited: nunyet

[chromeseeker]

I'm at peace chasing other species this summer and after hearing this I'm glad I don't have to rely on the craziness of the D to hook-up.

I know for certain of one prominent, long-time D guide (whom I've fished with in the past but won't ever again) who has taken to bribing other anglers off of "his" client's fly water by offering some of his flies. That's brutal.

Huge crowds? Smaller than average Idaho stray A-run steelies many of which fight like garbage? Unethical guides? Rude behavior? Newbies with their $1200 Spey outfits who may cause themselves and others bodily harm with their gear?

I'll pass.

CS

[TallFlyGuy]

Something like this happened to me once. I have since always tried to have my little camera (waterproof with the video option) with me waiting for it to happen again. I want to video some guide making an ass of themselves and post it all over. Fortunately it has not happened since then. I think if you pull out a camera and start videoing someone it might get their attention. Especially if they are a guide.

If it was me and I ran into the people in the lawn chair, I would just walk up and start videoing them, and asking what their names are etc. I'm curious what they would do.

[The Fish Box]

I know for certain of one prominent, long-time D guide (whom I've fished with in the past but won't ever again) who has taken to bribing other anglers off of "his" client's fly water by offering some of his flies. That's brutal.

I would like to know where said fly water in question is at not to fish it but if the guy is giving away free fly's I wouldn't mind waiting for him to show up with the goodies. :twocents:

[Abalone]

So if a guide or anyone else tries to muscle you out, what's he going to do if you don't leave ?

Nothing......

[Slow and Low]

What's up with that?When the White is blowin,a certain guide who will remain nameless, has taken to holding runs from the road whilst sitting in lawn chairs with clients waiting for the shade. That is such poor behavior I can't even wrap my mind around it.Has every one gone completely loony down there or what?

Man you have a better than average year and everyone just goes bonkers.

When the guides are leading the way with that kind of behavior it's no wonder that everyone else follows suit thinking it's acceptable. Now you see where that gets us. An overcompetitive situation where everyone is on edge and you may have to throw down just to fish.

The North Umpqua is sounding gooooooood to me!


Mark

Fish it or loose it.

[Slow and Low]

My friend rode his bike 15 miles up the D this weekend only to be pushed out by guides in their sleds. It seems like bull to me when people cant share a river especially when someone puts out that much effort to fish. One would think that out of all the people on the river the guides would have good ethics. One guide saw him hook a steelhead and pulled right up in front of him. He yelled to the guy to move but to no avail. He said th guy was so close that his fly was swinging right under his boat. They need to make it fly fishing only up that far. Tim

No offense Tim but I doubt very seriously that your buddy knows the difference between an guide and a group of rednecks in a sled. There are 12 jetboat permits on the lower Deschutes and not one of them including me would ever do that.

Flyfishing only doesn't get rid of sleds.

This thread needs to go away.

[MsOutdrs]

BEFORE it goes away, would someone mind explaining to me what you guys are talking about? How does anyone "hold a run from the road"??? If there's no one fishing a hole, its open, isn't it?

[Slow and Low]

BEFORE it goes away, would someone mind explaining to me what you guys are talking about? How does anyone "hold a run from the road"??? If there's no one fishing a hole, its open, isn't it?

Bingo!

[MsOutdrs]

Bingo!

I really am trying to learn what this is about in the event I ever get to fish the Deschutes. Sooo...if that's the case, what's the problem. The "chair" people get a little hostile?

[TheWaker]

It's open to fish as long as you have been watching and paying attention to a lot of MMA and can throw down a good choke hold or get them to tap out.

Mark

[Derrel]

NO, this thread does NOT need to go away: it needs to be kept,and the behavior examined and discussed in public. This type of behavior is totally uncalled for,and anybody who tries to pressure the general angling public at large to pass over, vacate, or avoid water he is trying to "reserve" for his clients deserves to have his behavior brought to public attention.

No, this thread does not deserve to be swept under the rug. Why would anybody want this thread "to go away"?

[Newbs]

Interesting discussion. Please keep it civil !!!!

[tumalt]

Interesting discussion, if you guys are ranting about fishing guides on the deschutes I have had a few unfortunate run-ins out there. I was a rafting guide out there for many years, and have had some pretty silly encounters with fishing companies. I remember a trip on the lower river on labor day, floated up to homestead and was surprised to see tents spread out through every available campsite. It was a jet weekend, so there was no boat in camp, but their was a bagboater holding down the fort. I pulled in, making friendly conversation and asked him how many people he had in his party. He said there would be 4 fisherman and a guide. I've seen three groups camp at homestead, but its definitely at least a 2 group site. I told him this, and he got all read in the face and started talking about how long he had been working out there, at which point I told him that if that's the case then he should know better than to try to take a campsite like that for just 6 people especially on such a busy weekend. He about lost it and I decided it was probably better to just headed downstream, but I was happy to see the State Police in their sled just around the corner. I waved them over and they were happy to hear the news and sped off upriver. I caught three steelhead at Airstrip which I probably never would have camped at...so the fish gods made everything allright.

I was on another trip with a youth group and apparently the guided fish trip next to us was up late into the night, one of the camp counselors went over to the guided trip and asked if they could be quite since the kids were getting scared, the owner of the company happened to be there and told the counselor to "get the BLEEP out of his camp." She was pretty shooken up the next morning. There are some awesome fishing guides out there, some of the best people on the river, but man there is something about some fish guides that just makes them think they own the river.

[Whiskey Dick]

My friend rode his bike 15 miles up the D this weekend only to be pushed out by guides in their sleds. It seems like bull to me when people cant share a river especially when someone puts out that much effort to fish. One would think that out of all the people on the river the guides would have good ethics. One guide saw him hook a steelhead and pulled right up in front of him. He yelled to the guy to move but to no avail. He said th guy was so close that his fly was swinging right under his boat. They need to make it fly fishing only up that far. Tim
All of the guide boats on the lower D have to have their name or the letters of their guide business on the boat so they can be identified. If it was a guide boat then he needs to get the name and call the Marine board (who they are licensed through) and complain. You should also call the BLM in Prineville as thet issue the permits for the guides and let them know what is going on.
However Tim if your friend was 15 miles up from the mouth that would put him at jetpump rapids and there are a lot of camps there and as there is no fishing from the boat on the lower D and even the jet boat folks have to get out to fish why would the guide pull right up in front of him?, Maybe he was trying to get in to his camp?.
I guided the lower D for 20 years and had my own permit for 15 years and i never had a problem finding water to put my clients in. If there was some one in the run i wanted to fish i would wait until they finished or move on and find another run to fish.

[Zugbug66]

I used to see this alot when I used to surf. It's like localism. Fishing is supposed to be fun, right? the lack of etiquette is frustrating, and by all means don't get pushed around, but let's keep it fun.

[wapiteaser]

Like I mentioned earlier, this has happened before on the Deschutes. Report it to ODFW or BLM and they will deal with it. Loss of Guide License or suspension for a couple years could come of it. They make the other guides look bad. It's all about money and ego.

[sothereiwas]

I respect a guys space when he is in a run not on a run. If I come across a guy camped out but not fishing he is SOL. I have had to many run ins with less that friendly folks recently and I'm sick and tired of it. I have now consolidated my flies into one less box so that when my new .380 arrives it will have a home.

[Ladyangler]

This problem is not just limited to the Deschutes. I think the driftboat guides on the Tillamook district streams think they own the rivers during the winter steelhead fishery. Just try swinging a fly while wading a run. Not much difference from the Deschutes or anywhere else, no respect for the other guy just get the client that fish at all cost. T

[XQB]

I respect a guys space when he is in a run not on a run. If I come across a guy camped out but not fishing he is SOL. I have had to many run ins with less that friendly folks recently and I'm sick and tired of it. I have now consolidated my flies into one less box so that when my new .380 arrives it will have a home.

I hear ya.....I don't EVER want to use it, but I made room along time ago for my Kahr P45!

[diamondfish]

Just have to chime in here, guides do not have exclusive rights to any portion of any river....period. With that said, there needs to be some give and take on both parties account.

Guides whom exercise less than professional attitudes, tend to be weeded out fast enough on their own. If you do have a problem with a guide, call the State Marine Board whom governs the guides, make them be accountable for their actions.

[sothereiwas]

I'm sure that tactic would have worked wonders with the meth head I ran into on the NFL a couple of weeks ago. I'm more than willing to man up and deal with anyone in a civil manner. That is not always an option. I'm not going to be the guy caught with his pants down. Go ahead and use your big boy voice, but be ready to beat feet when the guy you got into it with decides to take your little conversation to a place you weren't expecting it to go.

[CHOSENBOY]

I have no problem carrying, I do when there are possible dangerous peope or animals around but this thread is about guides on the D not tweekers or bears.

[sothereiwas]

I think the problem is that people are hesitant to confront these people about there unethical behavior. If more people did so they would stop. The more people just shrug it off an move on the more it just reinforces there tactic, and soon you will see more lawn chairs on the D than you do spey rods. Call them on it and do it LOUD!!!!!

[CHOSENBOY]

Will do and have when needed, this tactic I completely understand and applaud. Like Diamondfish said the guides will weed themselves out if they act poorly.

[cooky]

My friend rode his bike 15 miles up the D this weekend

Dude, your buddy rode past a lot of steelhead and open holes by going 15 miles upriver. I haven't seen the behavior of sitting in lawn chairs on the road but I think it is totally acceptable to sit on a run and let the sun get off the water. However, I could see it being a problem if it becomes and everyday occurence. That being said, has no one ever let a run percolate in the afternoon to prep it for fly fishing. I understand it is one thing if someone is sitting there from noon to a quarter before seven but if it is just for an hour or two I don't have a problem with it. I always ask if someone who was there before me is planning on fishing a run. There is PLENTY of water on the D. This year- in most situations- if you can't find a place where you can catch 'em you lack talent....

[MikeT]

I understand it is one thing if someone is sitting there from noon to a quarter before seven but if it is just for an hour or two I don't have a problem with it. I always ask if someone who was there before me is planning on fishing a run. There is PLENTY of water on the D. This year- in most situations- if you can't find a place where you can catch 'em you lack talent....

I have a huge problem with it. This type of thing goes on daily between the locked gate and Max Canyon. Somehow a certain segment of the angling community seems to think that hanging out on the road with their buddies most of the afternoon will somehow "hold" a run until sundown.
My view is share the water and give the other guy some space, but if he's not actually fishing or getting ready to cast, then the water is open. Of course that's likely to result in a confrontation, so I make it a point to hike to the water I want to fish and stay away from the roaded sections of the D.
The sport's rapidly turning into a competitive event, and the most aggressive and inconsiderate seem to be winning.

[baitslinger]

Wow...thats a good post! I've fished the "D" for years but am thinking seriously about bagging it lately; more and more people and nobody can share the place anymore? I was trained to share the river; always start above whoever was in the drift first....but just as importantly if you were in the drift first work you're way downstream at whatever pace you desire but don't stop in one spot and tie up the hole! That way we can all share it and at least be able to try your favorite spots whether you catch one or not. The way it's been the last few years you drive all the way up there and can't even get a chance to fish?


I think the problem is that people are hesitant to confront these people about there unethical behavior. If more people did so they would stop. The more people just shrug it off an move on the more it just reinforces there tactic, and soon you will see more lawn chairs on the D than you do spey rods. Call them on it and do it LOUD!!!!!

[Hunt-man]

I just got back from the Big D today. Fished Pine Tree to the mouth. There were a lot of places I wanted to fish and camp that were "occupied" so I floated on by. There was the guide camp that was clearly unoccupied, but maybe it was on private property and maybe the signs were just put up to keep people out.

It really seems like a really angry / aggressive ethic of jumping in someones water. Just because I decide to look at the water in front of camp until the sun is right doesn't mean you should jump in. If you ask I don't think I'd care but it is kinda a move. In my opinion.

Fishing is supposed to be fun, not a competitive gun toting MMA fighting event. I carry a gun every day at work and I'd rather not have to on the river because of my fellow fishermen. Be nice to each other. Being a jerk may get you a fish but your are not behaving any better than the angry guide the original complaint was about.

BTW: Fishing was ok not great. Some cloudy water from the White River. Watch out for that big rock in the middle or Rattle Snake, it almost ate me today.

[cooky]

I have a huge problem with it. This type of thing goes on daily between the locked gate and Max Canyon. Somehow a certain segment of the angling community seems to think that hanging out on the road with their buddies most of the afternoon will somehow "hold" a run until sundown.
My view is share the water and give the other guy some space, but if he's not actually fishing or getting ready to cast, then the water is open. Of course that's likely to result in a confrontation, so I make it a point to hike to the water I want to fish and stay away from the roaded sections of the D.
The sport's rapidly turning into a competitive event, and the most aggressive and inconsiderate seem to be winning.

Most assuredly there are no hard and fast rules regarding where you can and can't fish. However, I won't fish someones camp water, drop in below an angler (within several hundred yards) or get into a run that it looks like someone is waiting to fish when the sun gets off it without communicating with said angler. Other people can do as they choose but I have found that simply speaking with other anglers and clarifying intentions goes a long way to preventing animosity on the shores of the river. Generally, if I'm not fishing a run I have no problem with other people getting in it. However, If I'm sitting at the top of the run waiting for the sun to get off it I'm of the opinion that it would be rude for someone to drop in below me. Certainly there is nothing to prevent someone from doing this but I personally wouldn't do this to someone else. I don't fish around maupin a lot so I don't know the exact circumstances of the situation but I'll go out on a limb and suggest that letting someone- especially a fly fisherman- sit on a run for an hour to let it quiet as the sun gets off it is part of the unsaid etiquette of the sport. Its fine for some to disagree with me as there are no hard and fast rules regarding etiquette but when I'm fishing the last thing I want to experience is the fight or flight response. I have more of a problem with people suggesting that crowded fishing situations are a part of the reason they carry on the river. As someone who regularly carries I think this is obscenely irresponsible. Additionally, its pretty easy to pigeon hole all guides as being greedy but for the most part- excluding a few bad apples who will not survive in the business- I think guides are on average much better stewards of the resource than the prototypical weekend warrior. I can understand if some people are frustrated with this kind of thing happening especially if it is the same people on the same runs time and time again. Thats not acceptable. However, in all honesty there is a lot of water on the D where people can fish and if individuals are getting super upset about the most popular runs being occupied I would suggest you learn to fish new water. You don't have to be in the most popular and established runs to have a good day. The way the fishing has been this year I think that if your not having success on the D other anglers are not your biggest problem. Again, the D is getting more and more crowded and I would suggest to everyone that a little communication goes a long way.

[cooky]

Fishing is supposed to be fun,

This is really the crux of the matter. If people are finding areas that are accesible by autos to be too crowded I would suggest you put a few clicks on your hooves to get away from the masses. Additionally, although some my be frustrated I think we should all take a moment to reflect on the great foresight and generosity of those before us purchased large swaths of the lower deschutes thus making it public domain for the current generation as well as those who may wade her banks in the future. It really is a blue ribbon fishery that is widely accesible to the public and we should all be appreciative that we even have the oppurtunity to go there.

[Newbs]

Reading this thread I almost forgot I was on the fly fishing board !!!! I won't pick apart any posts or personal opinions...but hey....

There is always a civil recourse to someone taking unfair advantage of a resource that belongs to all of us. It would be nice if this thread were to be a civil discussion of those options.

A couple of posts have been edited or removed. If yours is one and you have questiosn please PM me. Let's stay on topic and remember why we are here !!!

Thanks,

Mod Board

[Zugbug66]

The guys who are abusing angling ethics tend to be the ones making a living off the sport. My advise is to not engage them to the point where you stoop to their level. this is where the sport loses fun. if you encounter this type of situation, let the offenders know your going to report them, then follow through! fix the problem, don't add to it. The people abusing the situation are, as it has been stated before, counting on you taking the abuse. Fight back...in a legal way. Or as previosly advised, fish the less pressured spots....you might be suprised.

I hit a realy good spot last week, early, only to find another angler in the top end. i was prepared to wait and give him room. He looked up at me and motioned me over. we talked for a few, and he offered me first water through the run! Awsome! There are good people out there. Be one of them!

[Two Fister]

Just got back from a weekend on the river. The lawn chair hatch was unbeliveable. The guides (either in lawn chairs on the road or solo in green and white clackacraft so that should give it away whos guides they were) were holding water for clients that were with other guides that were floating downriver. They were holding the water for hours on end. I pulled in to several spots and was aggressively told that they were fishing the water. I commented that it was hard to fish from their chair up in the trees and proceeded to cast. It made for an really unpleasant experience.

Cooky, I think you need to experience this firsthand before you lay so much judgement on folks. The green and white clackacrafts are staged in many of the best runs holding water for a few dudes floating. The fishing lately has been very spotty and it's shooting fish in a barrel like it was a few weeks ago. We fished hard, have been doing it for years, and were a mixture of spey (me), nymphers, and spin/plug fishermen. We landed 4 fish in three hard days of fishing. When several of the best runs are taken on the behalf of some fat cat dude that thinks it's great that his guide will **** everyone else off on the river for his benefit it just really wrecks the day. Other see this behavior and start to imitate it. Makes what was a really special fishery just another war zone.
TF

[Slow and Low]

TF/
Where you been?

[12244]

I am in for a boat ride to record this behavior, it will be fun! Smile!
And where can I get cheap lawnchairs? I may have to take up a few parking spaces in front of their business.

[leadeyedbugger]

LOL.....ok, i must confess. I kinda feel like a dork. Last trip below maupin a few weeks ago mid afternoon i noticed that alot of people were pulled off the road sitting in lawn chairs. Visiting, reading books etc. I got that they were waiting until evening to continue fishing but i guess that i didn't put it together that people sitting on the road up to 100yds from the actual river meant that they had staked there claim to that part of the river.
I usually hike right along the river so i would have never thought that people had already reserved there spots from way up on the road.....
BTW, can someone send me the link to the website where you can reserve your pullout for the evening. There is a couple of runs i would like to reverve for next weekend.

[Wild Chrome]

Just got back from a weekend on the river. The lawn chair hatch was unbeliveable. The guides (either in lawn chairs on the road or solo in green and white clackacraft so that should give it away whos guides they were) were holding water for clients that were with other guides that were floating downriver. They were holding the water for hours on end. I pulled in to several spots and was aggressively told that they were fishing the water. I commented that it was hard to fish from their chair up in the trees and proceeded to cast. It made for an really unpleasant experience.



That's just getting out of hand (though the description of the boat doesn't surprise me). Has anyone talked with the state police about being interfered with while fishing public water?

[flopearedmule]

ethics are the first to go when it gets so crowded. Everyone wants there own piece including guides. Sad but true.

[MsOutdrs]

I have two thoughts that come to mind even tho I have yet to get to fish the Deschutes.

#1 It is such a world reknown (sp?) river and we are getting so over-populated as it is, perhaps out of state/country people are paying big bucks to fish this river so, of course, the pressure is on the guides?

#2 If they keep it up, I'm afraid there will be more RULES that will hamper everyone and change this fishery completely. Sure hope not!

I'm hearing more and more from my fishing "circle" how ugly its getting up there. What a shame. Guess I won't ever get to fish that river. Well, I've fished it way up but had no clue what I was doing and caught white fish...years ago. Actually, didn't even know the difference between steelies and white fish back then...lol

Just had a thought...maybe they'll remove all commercial "guiding" from that river. Would that ever happen?

[nunyet]

Its not just guides, its becoming the norm to set above the run you are going to fish . I think we should change the way we treat water too .... if your not in the water the run is open, and if you are ,expect someone to step in above you.

As far as the North Umqua fisherman have been standing at the top of the run, in the dark, to be the first through for years. I have heard Zane Gray would have his cook stand in a run to hold it for him.

Let make the whole thing catch and release , and keep enough fish in the river for all.:flowered:

nunyet

[Two Fister]

TF/
Where you been?

Hey Sam,
Been busy at work. Finally got a chance to step in the river and was really horrified by what I saw. I wouldn't have picked the Maupin area, but my friends really wanted to fish water they knew well and I couldn't get to camp until late on Thursday after they had set it up. Had one group next to us that partied until 3:30 AM with lots of thumping music and high pitched "OH MY GOD" and "OMG" references to every other comment. Must have been one funny group. I guess energy beer was the primary culprit. I did the same when I was in college so I let them have their fun, but I made a point of taking extra time to warm up the diesel at 5:30 AM...managed to set off the car alarm some how as well. At least I know what that little red button on the key fob does now.:D

I was really surprised to see so much of this behavior below Beavertail. I noticed right away that lots of the guides that had put in at Pine Tree were really far in to their floats by mid morning on Friday. What I realized later was that they were floating all the way to Macks (about 13-14 river miles), but they had other guides holding water for them downstream. Between the White changing every 10 minutes and the heavy gillnetting in the CR, the fish were really running in waves. You were in them or you weren't. Having runs held in advance allowed them to cover lots of river miles without fear of running long distances without having a payoff at the end. They also had at least two camps set up in the Magic Mile/Ferry Canyon runs that didn't have a soul in them way after dark. I've always had a problem with how the green and white clackacraft outfit runs their business and claims ownership of the lower river, but this is too much. I'm drafting a letter of complaint for the Marine Board and BLM this morning.

And Nunyet is right on the money. It's not just the guides any longer that are doing this. There were a lot of people trying to hold their water from the road. I have to think that they learned that trick from Tigers guide.

I wouldn't have a problem if someone beat me to the run first thing in the morning and they were waiting for legal fishing light. They put in the extra effort and deserve the payoff. But think that you are the owner of a run by sitting a 100 yards away drinking beer in the shade for hours on end is just not going to fly. I hate to mix confrontation with fishing, but there is no way that someone in a chair on the road is going to stop me from fishing water that is open. I've pulled a lot of fish out of the water during the brightest part of the day and that was no different this past weekend. If they want to scramble down the bank and jump in I will fish the run behind them as they move through. If they don't move I will politely ask them to fish through. If they refuse I will move through the run as is the norm. If they have a problem with that then I will instruct them on the ethics of the Deschutes. If they don't like what they hear then that's too bad for them.

I had to discuss Deschutes River ethics with a couple of guys that low holed us on the Town Run (others call it 51). We were following their friend through and when he stepped out they figured they would just take his spot. Their friend was obviously pretty new to fly fishing and the pair of friends were throwing spoons. I told them that there were no cutsies on the D. We talked about it a bit and they moved to another run even though I invited them to follow us as we had done with their friend. It was a little tense, but I told them that it was better to learn the ethics calmly from me than to learn it from some hot head during fall chinook on the coast where physical confrontation seems to be more common. We ended up drinking beer with them later while watching the Duck dismantle Cal although we didn't talk about the lesson earlier in the day.

TF

[Slow and Low]

Hey Sam,
Been busy at work. Finally got a chance to step in the river and was really horrified by what I saw. I wouldn't have picked the Maupin area, but my friends really wanted to fish water they knew well and I couldn't get to camp until late on Thursday after they had set it up. Had one group next to us that partied until 3:30 AM with lots of thumping music and high pitched "OH MY GOD" and "OMG" references to every other comment. Must have been one funny group. I guess energy beer was the primary culprit. I did the same when I was in college so I let them have their fun, but I made a point of taking extra time to warm up the diesel at 5:30 AM...managed to set off the car alarm some how as well. At least I know what that little red button on the key fob does now.:D

I was really surprised to see so much of this behavior below Beavertail. I noticed right away that lots of the guides that had put in at Pine Tree were really far in to their floats by mid morning on Friday. What I realized later was that they were floating all the way to Macks (about 13-14 river miles), but they had other guides holding water for them downstream. Between the White changing every 10 minutes and the heavy gillnetting in the CR, the fish were really running in waves. You were in them or you weren't. Having runs held in advance allowed them to cover lots of river miles without fear of running long distances without having a payoff at the end. They also had at least two camps set up in the Magic Mile/Ferry Canyon runs that didn't have a soul in them way after dark. I've always had a problem with how the green and white clackacraft outfit runs their business and claims ownership of the lower river, but this is too much. I'm drafting a letter of complaint for the Marine Board and BLM this morning.

And Nunyet is right on the money. It's not just the guides any longer that are doing this. There were a lot of people trying to hold their water from the road. I have to think that they learned that trick from Tigers guide.

I wouldn't have a problem if someone beat me to the run first thing in the morning and they were waiting for legal fishing light. They put in the extra effort and deserve the payoff. But think that you are the owner of a run by sitting a 100 yards away drinking beer in the shade for hours on end is just not going to fly. I hate to mix confrontation with fishing, but there is no way that someone in a chair on the road is going to stop me from fishing water that is open. I've pulled a lot of fish out of the water during the brightest part of the day and that was no different this past weekend. If they want to scramble down the bank and jump in I will fish the run behind them as they move through. If they don't move I will politely ask them to fish through. If they refuse I will move through the run as is the norm. If they have a problem with that then I will instruct them on the ethics of the Deschutes. If they don't like what they hear then that's too bad for them.

I had to discuss Deschutes River ethics with a couple of guys that low holed us on the Town Run (others call it 51). We were following their friend through and when he stepped out they figured they would just take his spot. Their friend was obviously pretty new to fly fishing and the pair of friends were throwing spoons. I told them that there were no cutsies on the D. We talked about it a bit and they moved to another run even though I invited them to follow us as we had done with their friend. It was a little tense, but I told them that it was better to learn the ethics calmly from me than to learn it from some hot head during fall chinook on the coast where physical confrontation seems to be more common. We ended up drinking beer with them later while watching the Duck dismantle Cal although we didn't talk about the lesson earlier in the day.

TF


TF,
Thanks for the update. Haven't seen too much JHC on the lower section but agree lots of people are camping on runs there is no camp on and locking up water with abandoned camps. It will be over soon enough...as soon as they can chase fall runs.

Keep in touch.

[Flatfish]

Sounds like a real world class experience.

[Seefood Man]

Hi Folks! I do a bit of lurking here and as a guide myself, I have to pass this on to you. It is the OSMB Code of Ethics that all guides & charters must follow. If you notice bad behavior from any guide or charter PLEASE contact the OSMB and file a formal complaint.

Contact Ushttp://www.boatoregon.com/OSMB/images/OSMB_sm.gifWelcome to the OSMB Law Enforcement ProgramAddressHours of OperationContactPO Box 14145
435 Commercial St NE #400
Salem 97309-5065


Map/Directions (http://www.boatoregon.com/OSMB/miscfiles/AboutMap.shtml) 8:00 AM - 5:00 PM
Bill Rydblom (marine.board@state.or.us)

Phone: 503-378-8587
LE Program Directory (http://www.boatoregon.com/OSMB/contact_us_directory.shtml#Law_Enforcement_Program )



Outfitter/Guide Ethical and Professional Standards
All outfitter/guides shall:
(1) Make every effort to operate with respect for the rights of others, private and public property, and provide for the health, safety, and well being of their clients, employees, and the general public;
(2) Provide services on public land in a manner such that they do not interfere with the general public access to public land or waterways or access to wildlife on public land;
(3) Lave clean camps, striving to maintain the environment in as good or better condition than before and dispose of all garbage, debris, and human waste in a proper, approved manner;
(4) Cooperate with Federal, State, and local fish and wildlife officials; advise clients of all applicable conservation standards, fish and game laws, license requirements, statutes and regulations and not condone their violation;
(5) Not use any illegal drug, or excessively use alcohol, or any other drug or substance, to the extent that the use impairs the user physically or mentally while engaged by a client;
(6) Not violate any law, rule, or policy of the Department of Fish and Wildlife concerning the certification of residents and nonresidents for procuring hunting and fishing licenses;
(7) Not engage in fraud, deceit, misrepresentation, or concealment of any material fact in advertising, soliciting, or providing professional services to members of the public;
(8) Provide any animal used in the conduct of business with proper food, water, and shelter and not subject any animal to needless abuse or cruel and inhuman treatment;
(9) Not solicit clients or another outfitter/guide while client is engaging in an outfitting activity;
(10) Promptly refund deposits paid by participants upon request if such deposits are due to the participant in accordance with the outfitter/ guide's written deposit refund policy;
(11) Not substantially breach a contract with any person using guiding services of the outfitter/guide;
(12) Treat clients, employees, and the general public in a fair and professional manner.
(13) It is unprofessional and unethical to have an outfitter/guide registration, license, permit or certificate suspended, revoked, canceled, or denied by another state or by an agency of the United States.

[Wild Chrome]

There's been a lot of smack talk on the Deschutes here lately. For what it's worth, I just want to say though I've heard of some of this happening, I have generally had very good experiences on the river this year. I'm fishing weekdays and throwing more gear than flies due to the water conditions (and frankly to get into less flogged water). The guide-holding-water issue p's me o, but there still is great fishing to be had (at times).

It certainly doesn't help to label all guides or all gear fishermen as unethical. That just increases tensions. There's too much tension between groups of fishermen out there. I had one experience about 3 weeks ago where my partner and I slept in a bit (to avoid the O'dark:30 fly-fishing land-grab) and went to a long boulder run where we'd hooked a few the night before. The run's about 500 yards long and largely hidden from the road by trees. There's some shallow, less productive water between the top and middle, so you could even call it 2 separate runs, I suppose. There was 1 rig parked in the middle and a lot of people start there b/c some of the best water's there. My bud and I couldn't see the fishermen. So we drive to the top of the hole, park and rig up. From the road, we saw and heard no one. I'd caught a nook there recently, so I decided to gear -fish it in hopes of another (normally I fly fish the seam at the top). We both walk down to the bank and there, just 50 feet below us is one of 2 spey casters. We're separated by tough wading and blackberries on shore, so it was impracticle to walk down to them, My bud decided to go upstream and I decided to follow them. The fly guy nearest me then looks at me (and my spinning rod) and quickly just looks away. We were certainly within greeting distance and had made eye contact. I took the glance as an insult. We could so easily have low-holed them and played innocent b/c we couldn't see them and they were so far from their rig, but we didn't. I mean, you certainly don't have to park where you want to fish, but these guys were playing defense with their rig and were invisible from the road due to the trees. They were excellent casters and in great, hard-to-see water, so I'm sure they were Deschutes veterans. I'm sure they knew the top of that hole was a popular spot, that they'd be hard to see from the road due to the trees and blackberries, and that they were hiking into a spot that someone else would surely want to fish soon. So when we arrived, what did they do? Just give us a rude look, despite the fact that we gave them river courtesy, despite the fact that they were several hundred yards above their rig in a popular hole. I have to wonder, if I'd carried my fly rod down the bank instead of the spinning rod, would the guy have waved or said "Good morning"? The steelhead that I proceded to catch following them about 10 minutes later was one of the most satisfying of my season!:D Maybe I'm just too sensative, but I think if you want river courtesy, you should give it too.

Later, the same day, we came across a solo fly guy who greeted us in another run and followed us through. I LDR'd the only fish between us casting a spoon to the seam on the other side (giving the fly guy the inside seam). We all quit at the same time and the dude struck up a conversation with us. Turns out he was from CA and was fishing the D for the first time. He was very friendly. My bud and I have been fly and gear fishing that stretch of river for a dozen years and have hooked hundreds of steelhead there (inc 19 on that 24 hour trip:throb:). The friendly fly guy got specific spots from us "gear guys" (pointing at the water from our rig), where we've caught them on the fly before, just for being friendly. My partner said "That's the kind of guy that deserves to catch fish".:flowered:

[packer]

It doesn,t matter if you are fly fishing , side drifting or hunting whenever money enters the picture things have a tendency to change . I guided elk for a few years and was really uncomfortable with some peoples attitude when money changed hands , when your customers plunk down their cash they have a level of expectation concerning their success . Good professionals will explain the rules and tell their clients what to expect thru the day and how he expects them to conduct themselves . If he doesn't he is just another guy trading money for meat and shouldn't call himself a guide . I have had alot of peple go home empty handed that gave good tips because they said they had a great experience . people that measure success by the number of fish they catch should be honest and just buy dynamite because they aren't sportsmen :flowered:

[cooky]

I'll have to check it out for myself.... If people are really sitting on runs for hours on end that is BS. However, I am willing to cut most people a pretty good amount of slack when it comes to letting a run quiet. We should all remember.... If you post it they will come. Anyway, tight lines guys.

[Cycody]

I'll have to check it out for myself.... If people are really sitting on runs for hours on end that is BS. However, I am willing to cut most people a pretty good amount of slack when it comes to letting a run quiet. We should all remember.... If you post it they will come. Anyway, tight lines guys.

I must first admit that I have been lurking on ifish for quite some time now; this is the first instance that has inspired me to actually post a response. I have fished the Deschutes for trout and steelhead since I was a little boy, and I do believe that there are many unwritten rules about steelhead fishing. I have read some of the posts by other ifishers who talk about how the river has declined or become overcrowded, and that the sense of etiquette has been lost. I think that this just may be an adjustment period for people who are new to the river and guides who have not learned their lesson yet. I was taught to steelhead fish, really steelhead fish, by a man who was a WWII vet and a local here in Madras. When he first started to fly fish on the Deschutes, they would hook these huge “rainbows” who would subsequently snap the catgut leaders they had tied themselves. It took them a while to figure out that they were actually hooking into steelhead and that they had to change their tactics. The reason I mention this man is that he used to tell me many stories about people crowding his water, and I guess what I am trying to say is that maybe etiquette develops on a river because people enforce it. If someone were to sit in a lawn chair all day holding water and Dean heard about it, it would be the first place he would fish. He also had another little trick that works well; it’s called throwing rocks in the river. He also threw a guy in the river once for climbing up on the rock from which he was fishing. Now I am not condoning this type of behavior. I am just saying that competition for fishing holes on the Deschutes is nothing new, and there are rules that need to be followed so that we can all just have a good time. It isn't ok if one person or group consistently breaks the unwritten rules, especially if that person or group is on the river every day. I am sure there are more civil ways to deal with these situations, but I do not think it is something that everyone should let slide. If what has been written is true, it not only makes me angry; it makes me sad.

[kilchisfisher]

it makes me sad.


:yeahthat:

[Tar Heel]

I have two thoughts that come to mind even tho I have yet to get to fish the Deschutes.

#1 It is such a world reknown (sp?) river and we are getting so over-populated as it is, perhaps out of state/country people are paying big bucks to fish this river so, of course, the pressure is on the guides?

#2 If they keep it up, I'm afraid there will be more RULES that will hamper everyone and change this fishery completely. Sure hope not!

I'm hearing more and more from my fishing "circle" how ugly its getting up there. What a shame. Guess I won't ever get to fish that river. Well, I've fished it way up but had no clue what I was doing and caught white fish...years ago. Actually, didn't even know the difference between steelies and white fish back then...lol

Just had a thought...maybe they'll remove all commercial "guiding" from that river. Would that ever happen?

I think that is a good point worth a serious discussion, although it would probably be a cold day ...once that much money is involved. Guides have taken over on numerous epic western rivers, including the Bitteroot in MT where my brother lives (he has given up fishing because of an overpopulation of non-native species introduced by guides).
You know, waterfowl hunting guides can't guide on most public lands and refuges. Most guiding is on private land, with some exceptoions, and were it otherwise, places like the L&C Nat'l WL Refuge would be a zoo--like the D is for fishing, except that EVERYONE has a gun!
Is it too harsh to say "you either learn what your doing or you dont get to go--is that too harsh? Buy a map, book, go it on your own or stay home? I think it's certainly worth discussing. If Tiger Woods wants to fish and money is no object, tough cookies--either learn how to row a boat or fish by foot like 99% of the folks on the River? It wouldnt cure the problem of sloppy river ethics, but it sure might help. When you are getting paid to produce, it adds alot of pressure to the equation-- what's it to tick off a bunch of unguided ifishers when it might net the guide another $100 tip if Tiger really gets into them one evening?

[MsOutdrs]

I think that is a good point worth a serious discussion, although it would probably be a cold day ...once that much money is involved. Guides have taken over on numerous epic western rivers, including the Bitteroot in MT where my brother lives (he has given up fishing because of an overpopulation of non-native species introduced by guides).
You know, waterfowl hunting guides can't guide on most public lands and refuges. Most guiding is on private land, with some exceptoions, and were it otherwise, places like the L&C Nat'l WL Refuge would be a zoo--like the D is for fishing, except that EVERYONE has a gun!
Is it too harsh to say "you either learn what your doing or you dont get to go--is that too harsh? Buy a map, book, go it on your own or stay home? I think it's certainly worth discussing. If Tiger Woods wants to fish and money is no object, tough cookies--either learn how to row a boat or fish by foot like 99% of the folks on the River? It wouldnt cure the problem of sloppy river ethics, but it sure might help. When you are getting paid to produce, it adds alot of pressure to the equation-- what's it to tick off a bunch of unguided ifishers when it might net the guide another $100 tip if Tiger really gets into them one evening?

I'm certainly not advocating that guides be removed from the river, I'm just suggesting that if there's too much serious fighting going on involving the guides, the powers that be may just make it off limits.

As a member of a fishing organization, I strongly advocate in our group that we l) work hard to get more kids into fishing (get them out to appreciate the outdoors and away from all their electronic gadgets) 2) at the same time, teach them good fishing ettiquette..(sp...dang..I'm getting old, can't even remember how to spell words right anymore..lol).

[garyk]

Just an FYI that the Deschutes is and has been "limited entry" to all commercial enterprises for a very long time. All commercial entities have to operate under a special use permit issued by the Fedeal land management agency - (BLM on the lower river, and USFS in the Deschutes basin above Bend) - and those commercial permits are limited and capped. As is the 'user days' allowed under the permit.

All this can be found in the Lower Deschutes Recreational Management Plan obtained thru BLM.

[Ladyangler]

What we see is what we get. The problem with too many isn't just a Deschutes problem. Look at the North coast during the winter steelhead fishery. The word etiquette means one thing, until those who don't understand the meaning figure it out the word means nothing. With all the fish returning into Tillamook Bay and the Sandy, Clackamas and all the other rivers full of fish it just amassing that there are that many people fishing the Deschutes.

Just kidding it is sad to see the direction the fisheries have taken in the last decade. Not much to brag about just a lot of people being thrown into smaller area's and window of opportunity. The numbers may be mind blowing to some but to this 4 decade angler it is a sad reminder of what we have left.

[sherretb]

I know it is easy to get bummed out but I think that if you like fishing enough you just keep going and being content with what you can get. If you do this enough, then occasionally you end up with the river all to yourself.

I have been out on the D four times this year and have found ample room each time. Luck and a mountain bike contributed equally to that I am sure.

[Tar Heel]

I don't necessarily advocate further limitations on guides--or even banning them altogether. But perhaps having the debate would make everyone think twice before hogging a hole, attmepting to "reserve" or "save" water, always sending your gear boat down river to grab the best camps when the campers are 5 hours up river....
I used to guide splash and giggle overnight and day trips in the 80's-90's and recognize some value in offering access for people who might not otherwise get to enjoy the D, but if it guided trips shouldn't come at the expense of good experience for the average Joe.

Tight lines!

[nunyet]

I don't necessarily advocate further limitations on guides--or even banning them altogether. But perhaps having the debate would make everyone think twice before hogging a hole, attmepting to "reserve" or "save" water, always sending your gear boat down river to grab the best camps when the campers are 5 hours up river....
I used to guide splash and giggle overnight and day trips in the 80's-90's and recognize some value in offering access for people who might not otherwise get to enjoy the D, but if it guided trips shouldn't come at the expense of good experience for the average Joe.

Tight lines!

Only one person can be the first to a campsite or fishing spot , what difference does it make if their bag boat beat you to camp by 5 hours or five minutes .:D

nunyet

[Zugbug66]

Doesn't mean anything. As long as they're actually fishing the water and not just warding other anglers off.

[dubl_t]

Sad but true, guiding and outfitting brings BIG money into many western states, with that follows greed.

I kinda appreciate the wisdom of Cycody.

[wedgeman]

Let make the whole thing catch and release , and keep enough fish in the river for all.:flowered:

nunyet

That's a great idea... You can just walk along the beach and pick up all those dead hatchery fish for dinner.

[Whiskey Dick]

Just an FYI that the Deschutes is and has been "limited entry" to all commercial enterprises for a very long time. All commercial entities have to operate under a special use permit issued by the Fedeal land management agency - (BLM on the lower river, and USFS in the Deschutes basin above Bend) - and those commercial permits are limited and capped. As is the 'user days' allowed under the permit.

All this can be found in the Lower Deschutes Recreational Management Plan obtained thru BLM.

Gary, not quite right per the lower Deschutes, There are no 'user days' on the lower D in the sections that have limited access(Segment 1, 3 and 4) if you can buy a boaters pass for the guide and clients you can go. The user days went away when they brought in limited access.
Also the commercial permits are not"limited and capped", per the agreement with the tribe 5% new permits are issued each year, I believe the waiting list is 7 years. They also count any sale of a business that has a permit as a new permit as they issue the buyer with a new permit number.
There are no "caps or limits" on the permits, If you have a permit you can hire as many guides as you want,(I am not talking about jet boat permits as they do limit how many jet boats you can have under your permit which is 2)The only limit is the boaters passes available on the weekends, When they sell out no one can float that section.
So what it all means is that limited access does not really affect the guides as much as it affects the recreational boater.

[nunyet]

That's a great idea... You can just walk along the beach and pick up all those dead hatchery fish for dinner.

Or you could just leave the carcasses in the river and make a huge gain in nutriments .:)

nunyet

[jvp]

i believe the marine board issues the guide licenses and i am sure they would love to know how their licensed guides are doing. one guide on a river i fish gave grief a few years back until the old man fishing by me had had enough. haven't seen that guide in 4 years. i have no idea if it was the calls the old man made but things got much nicer, as in cooperation by all.

[358norma]

Or you could just leave the carcasses in the river and make a huge gain in nutriments .:)

nunyet
Or we could have all those un-kept hatchery fish breeding with the few remaining native fish left in the system.

If you feel that the deschutes needs more nutrients in the form of dead fish contact the powers to be at PGE and tell them to stop handing out all the left over hatchery fish to the natives and throw them back in the river instead. A catch and release fishery on hatchery steelhead goes against all known scientific data available to us right now.

[kgpcr]

I would just step in front of them and fish buts thats a Marine for you. There is no excuse for sitting in a lawn chair locking up the river.

[C-lice]

I have read every post in this thread. I have never fished the Deschutes. But I still guess I don't what the hand-wringing is about. If nobody is in the water fishing a run, what's to stop someone else from fishing it? People will only 'hold' holes from the road )Or riverbank, or waist-deep in the water) to the extent they are allowed to.

I'm absolutely not calling anyone out, or trying to label anyone as a sissy. I haven't experienced what you're talking about, so I can't say how I'd react. But I know I wouldn't not fish because someone at the pull-out was sitting someplace in a lawn chair. I just can't understand why an etiquette-minded angler would allow himself to be put off that way.

I would think that etiquette, in these situations, can be used as a sword as easily as a shield. If someone isn't obseving etiquette, we still can. And etiquette demands that I (or you) start fishing the hole once the other person has had adequate opportunity. Etiquette does not demand that I (or you) sacrifice my opportunity because someone else won't play by the rules.

I suspect that these hole-holders are like the typical schoolyard bully--all bark and no bite. Call their bluff and see what happens. Granted, it DOES dampen the day's enjoyment that this has to happen, but it will continue to happen as long as it is not challenged.

[Whiskey Dick]

It looks like the guides from the deschutes angler fly shop have been taking some heat, If you read their September 30th report you will see it.

[Kevin2023]

It looks like the guides from the deschutes angler fly shop have been taking some heat, If you read their September 30th report you will see it.

I find it ironic that she mentioned "I have also had people pull over in the middle of a run that I have clients fishing and say, "You're done fishing this run. We are going to fish it now." I've talked to people that said she did the same thing to them.

[Slow and Low]

I think Amy summed it up rather nicely. This year has been and still is busy. Learn to fish something besides Ferry Canyon and Windknot, you might be surprised. We have caught fish in just about every run this year at one time or another. I watched a guy pull his driftboat up from Harpham to lock up last chance for an entire day. Crazy behavior. The weather has gotten a little more hard core over there with the wind raging and dust flying everywhere. I would expect to see the pressure drop from here on out.

See you guys on the river.

[Wild Chrome]

It looks like the guides from the deschutes angler fly shop have been taking some heat, If you read their September 30th report you will see it.

Their spin is almost funny.

[Two Fister]

I find it ironic that she mentioned "I have also had people pull over in the middle of a run that I have clients fishing and say, "You're done fishing this run. We are going to fish it now." I've talked to people that said she did the same thing to them.

That statement coming from her is offensive. I've had her try to sneak in behind me on a short but productive run that I just pulling into after floating around the main seam to avoid spooking the fish. She tried to push in from the top, but fortunately I glanced over my shoulder and was able to pull in before she could snake it from me. When she realized that I was going to get into position before she could she floated down the main seam splashing her oars flat on the water in a childish attempt to spook the run. I still hooked a couple, but it makes me grind my teeth to this day. I've had her aggressively lay claim to the entire Magic Mile while fishing 2 clients. I laughed at her foul language and pathetic attempt to run us off. The sad part was her screaming at her eldery client on a slow day as he missed the one fish I think that he hooked.

The river belongs to the people of Oregon and we allow the Hazels to earn a healthy living showing others how to enjoy it. The least they could do is teach their clients some proper behavior.

TF

[Whiskey Dick]

That statement coming from her is offensive. I've had her try to sneak in behind me on a short but productive run that I just pulling into after floating around the main seam to avoid spooking the fish. She tried to push in from the top, but fortunately I glanced over my shoulder and was able to pull in before she could snake it from me. When she realized that I was going to get into position before she could she floated down the main seam splashing her oars flat on the water in a childish attempt to spook the run. I still hooked a couple, but it makes me grind my teeth to this day. I've had her aggressively lay claim to the entire Magic Mile while fishing 2 clients. I laughed at her foul language and pathetic attempt to run us off. The sad part was her screaming at her eldery client on a slow day as he missed the one fish I think that he hooked.

The river belongs to the people of Oregon and we allow the Hazels to earn a healthy living showing others how to enjoy it. The least they could do is teach their clients some proper behavior.
TF

Well said, It is interesting she does not say anything about her guides racing down river to hold water for the clients they are bringing down. Or all the part time and want to be guides who show up and do not have a clue what they are doing when they think the Steelhead are in the river. Or what about the long time jet boat guide who was just investigated by the BLM and State Police for not moving his camp from a BLM camp site below Macks Canyon for over 2 months, He would have an employee come down the day before the jet boats were to be off the river to sit in the camp until he came back the following monday.
Then there is the guide who rowed his clients across at Nena before day break and hiked them 3 miles up river to fish runs away from the crowds and a Sisters guide rowing down gets all p****d off at them and starts shouting and screaming at him and his clients as he rows past with his clients, Real classy!!!!. There are some really great guides and outfitters on the lower D who will go out of there way to help you if you are in trouble down there and then there are others who think the river owes them a living!!. Sad, Really sad.

[wapiteaser]

I think that BLM now issues permits to guide on the Deschutes as they have taken over STATE WATERS for money purposes. I wish it would go back to the old days where you had to prove your boating abilities to the Marine Board to get licenses to run a boat and then go to ODFW to get your actual fishing or hunting guides license. You were then issued a card that looks like your drivers license that showed you were certified. ODFW needs to take the guiding issue back over as it is their area of work that the guides are using. If you have complaints now, contact BLM about them and name the guide/s or voice your complaint. Mine is about the locals that take up the handicap/blue hole and live in it for two months during the prime of the run. I think it should be a day use only after Labor Day as it is a favorite run for many people. Anyway, tight lines to all.






i believe the marine board issues the guide licenses and i am sure they would love to know how their licensed guides are doing. one guide on a river i fish gave grief a few years back until the old man fishing by me had had enough. haven't seen that guide in 4 years. i have no idea if it was the calls the old man made but things got much nicer, as in cooperation by all.

[garyk]

* There are no 'user days' on the lower D ....The user days went away when they brought in limited access.

* Also the commercial permits are not"limited and capped", per the agreement with the tribe 5% new permits are issued each year.



DANG! Things do change.

Thanks WhiskeyDick for the update (and all the surprises...)

BTW, we did just fish for three days without any altercations. No fights, no screaming, no guns, no nothing. Pretty low key except for some steelhead.

I did offer a spey dude some of my smoked coho but he refused (even after I explained it was hatchery --- PURIST!:wink:)

And after we finished working a run and bombed three fish out of it, I waved a guy who was waiting to c'mon down. I think he said "thanks"

No "Fight Club".... just sun and good times......and a nice cheesburger at the Oasis.

[TheWaker]

It doesn't seem particularly ethical for a guide to row across at Nena and leave their boat holding the run and go upstream from there.It seems depending on where you go upstream,there is some private property in there that would have to be crossed. This then turns into not just an ethical matter but a legal matter. Maybe the guide has permission, maybe not.If not, I can't imagine the land owners dig that too much if they are even aware of it. Someone crossing private land to make a profit on a public river.Unfortunately again, especially bad behavior for SOME guides to set that kind of example for everyone.

As was stated above there are a bunch of great guides on the river who shoot straight and play by the rules. Give them the business.

Mark

[Frozen_Arrows]

I would report them with boat lic number to the OSP it is Harasment and it will catch up with them for sure.:twocents:

[Whiskey Dick]

DANG! Things do change.

Thanks WhiskeyDick for the update (and all the surprises...)

BTW, we did just fish for three days without any altercations. No fights, no screaming, no guns, no nothing. Pretty low key except for some steelhead.

I did offer a spey dude some of my smoked coho but he refused (even after I explained it was hatchery --- PURIST!:wink:)

And after we finished working a run and bombed three fish out of it, I waved a guy who was waiting to c'mon down. I think he said "thanks"

No "Fight Club".... just sun and good times......and a nice cheesburger at the Oasis.

You are right Gary things change and the tribe and BLM changed a lot when it suited them:whistle:.
Good to hear you had a good trip, I was down on the lower D last week for 4 days with good friends and we also had a great time with no hassles but hard hitting fish. We shared our camp water with any one who wanted to fish it and we all caught fish and had a good time.

[baitslinger]

That was too funny!

DANG! Things do change.

Thanks WhiskeyDick for the update (and all the surprises...)

BTW, we did just fish for three days without any altercations. No fights, no screaming, no guns, no nothing. Pretty low key except for some steelhead.

I did offer a spey dude some of my smoked coho but he refused (even after I explained it was hatchery --- PURIST!:wink:)

And after we finished working a run and bombed three fish out of it, I waved a guy who was waiting to c'mon down. I think he said "thanks"

No "Fight Club".... just sun and good times......and a nice cheesburger at the Oasis.