Electric down rigger power interruption

[Bluknight]

I mounted Cannon Mag 5HS on my boat this year and thought I had everything wired up just fine but now I'm wondering.

Both are wired to one battery and that is the only thing that battery is hooked up to.

I have to problems:

1) The auto-up function works sometimes and other times not at all. This is not limited to one side and does not seem to coincide to anything in particular.

2) If I start one down rigger up and it goes auto up and then try to bring the other down rigger up at the same time the first one I started stops working. It's like the second one I start up takes over the power.

Any theories or suggestions?

Thanks

[Gundog]

It sounds like a loose or bad connection and I am guessing on the ground since it affects both units. It could be a bad or weak battery but I am betting on the loose connection.

Mike

[Bluknight]

At risk of sounding too dumb (although when it comes to wiring I ain't real bright!) - how do I ground this battery?

It is strapped down right next to the main battery (the one that does the crankin for the main and kicker motor). Can I just run a lead from negative on the main battery to negative on the downrigger battery and that will ground it to everything else?

Sorry for the simple questions but I was hesitant to rig these myself and did lots of research so I'm not happy it didn't work and don't want to mess anything else up.

Thanks

[Gundog]

This is a tough question actually the answer is simple but can be expensive depending on if you can do the work yourself. I am going to make a few assumptions. The first assumption is the battery is only running these 2 downriggers? The second assumption is you have 1 starting battery that runs your whole boat starting and electronics?

If this is correct I would at the least install a battery switch and tie the grounds together on these batteries. On battery one I would have just the starting for your engine hooked to that battery. Battery 2 would have everything else hooked to that battery that is called your house battery. I would also get an isolator or ACR Auto charge relay so both batteries are being charged. Make sure everything is fused.

This subject has been covered and argued on this forum many times use the search function and have fun reading. If you do some research this is something you can do but if you are not comfortable with doing it hire a pro. Portland Marine Electronics, Rogers Marine and Ifish sponsor Rob Voss see his add above.

At risk of sounding too dumb (although when it comes to wiring I ain't real bright!) - how do I ground this battery?


The simple answerr to this question is if this battery is only feeding 2 down riggers the ground does not need to be tied to any other battery to work but I would probably tie the grounds together at the battery posts. Simple fused 12 volt circuits 2 wires to each downrigger and they will work as long as the battery is charged there is not any reason they should not work as long as all connections are good and the battery has a good charge. A volt meter would tell you alot when it acts up.

Mike

[sucker]

You do need to tie the negative terminals on the downrigger battery and the boat/motor battery together. Your downrigger uses the galvantic difference between the boat/motor and downrigger cable for the auto stop function. If your downrigger battery is floating the downrigger has no reference to know when the cable is out of the water. I am assuming you did put the insolator between the ball and downrigger cable. If tying the grounds together does not work you may have what is known as a hot boat. The downrigger installation directions tell you how to check for this but even if you tested it and it was ok it will not work properly unless it has a ground reference on the downrigger battery. A quick way to test is hook the downrigger to the main battery and see if it works; bet it will.

[lurking_out_loud]

You do need to tie the negative terminals on the downrigger battery and the boat/motor battery together. Your downrigger uses the galvantic difference between the boat/motor and downrigger cable for the auto stop function. If your downrigger battery is floating the downrigger has no reference to know when the cable is out of the water. I am assuming you did put the insolator between the ball and downrigger cable. If tying the grounds together does not work you may have what is known as a hot boat. The downrigger installation directions tell you how to check for this but even if you tested it and it was ok it will not work properly unless it has a ground reference on the downrigger battery. A quick way to test is hook the downrigger to the main battery and see if it works; bet it will.


Huh? You are kidding right?

You could have just said that the flux capacitor is leaking and that the positive electrons were reversed due to sun spots and density of the sunbrella top on his boat. If I was a sarcastic person, I'd just tell the guy to raise the battery to get more electrons flowing down hill since the electrical resistance of having the riggers mounted higher than the battery was to much for the system to handle because electrons travel downhill faster.

The auto stop for every downrigger I've ever seen is a PHYSICAL switch where that little plastic do-hicky or crimp that's connected to the cable trips the circuit. I'm not sure I've ever seen a system smart enough to use a ground reference without taking into account salinity, temperature, cable length, and electrical resistance. To put in perspective, I know I've never seen one with those type of circuits standard.

This is not a hot boat issue or a gounding problem so clear you minds here. This is probably just a loose connection or voltage line loss due to the wire being too small for the job. Check the connections first, then look to see that the wire you used to connect the riggers is at least a 14awg. If you installed a circuit breaker it also may be over taxed by the load and tripping.

One other question here, what is the condition of the battery? If one stops when the other turns on, you may be exceeding the available amperage available to both and dropping the voltage down below the operating minimum for the rigger. If this is an older or small battery, you may need to do a battery load test to ensure it has enough reserve to work as you want.

PM me if you want more help. This one seems pretty simple, just check your work and listen to Gundog. He's on the right track on this one.

-lol

[ondarvr]

Huh? You are kidding right?

You could have just said that the flux capacitor is leaking and that the positive electrons were reversed due to sun spots and density of the sunbrella top on his boat. If I was a sarcastic person, I'd just tell the guy to raise the battery to get more electrons flowing down hill since the electrical resistance of having the riggers mounted higher than the battery was to much for the system to handle because electrons travel downhill faster.

The auto stop for every downrigger I've ever seen is a PHYSICAL switch where that little plastic do-hicky or crimp that's connected to the cable trips the circuit. I'm not sure I've ever seen a system smart enough to use a ground reference without taking into account salinity, temperature, cable length, and electrical resistance. To put in perspective, I know I've never seen one with those type of circuits standard.

This is not a hot boat issue or a gounding problem so clear you minds here. This is probably just a loose connection or voltage line loss due to the wire being too small for the job. Check the connections first, then look to see that the wire you used to connect the riggers is at least a 14awg. If you installed a circuit breaker it also may be over taxed by the load and tripping.

One other question here, what is the condition of the battery? If one stops when the other turns on, you may be exceeding the available amperage available to both and dropping the voltage down below the operating minimum for the rigger. If this is an older or small battery, you may need to do a battery load test to ensure it has enough reserve to work as you want.

PM me if you want more help. This one seems pretty simple, just check your work and listen to Gundog. He's on the right track on this one.

-lol

My electric DR's use the the ground to set the auto stop..no ground....no stop. So yes this is real.

I'm not saying this is the issue though, it could still be a bad connection or weak battery, as mine will shut off for this reason also.

[Bluknight]

The auto stop feature works on mine. And yes the auto stop on the Canon has to do with a set screw on the DR spool and the insulator clip breaking the water. When that breaks out of the water the circuit is broken and it stops. Not too much magic involved.

I may have been confusing in my first post. The auto stop works just fine. It's the auto up part that does not always work. Once the auto up part works it's smooth sailing. I'll have to give it a little testing next time I'm out. Wasn't really planning on another kokanee trip but I can you can still test them while walleye fishing.

Thanks for the input

[lurking_out_loud]

Yep, you're right. Sorry about that. The Cannons require the boat to be "grounded" (their words not mine) for the short stop function to work correctly. On the downside, this requires ALL metal parts below the water line to be bonded or you will get some pretty bad corrosion issues. This also precludes you from using braid on your down riggers as well.

Typically, small boat electrical systems float the ground and use only the negative post of the battery as the ground reference. The engine is bonded to this circuit which provides a minimal ground reference for the positive ion control module. Where this gets touchy is when there is no bonding to the motor (manual start kicker) and you are hoping this type of system will work. These black box type systems usually require a direct connection to the hull or to all the metal below the water line which again can create way more problems on a small outboard powered boat than they are worth IMO.

[sucker]

Huh? You are kidding right?

You could have just said that the flux capacitor is leaking and that the positive electrons were reversed due to sun spots and density of the sunbrella top on his boat. If I was a sarcastic person, I'd just tell the guy to raise the battery to get more electrons flowing down hill since the electrical resistance of having the riggers mounted higher than the battery was to much for the system to handle because electrons travel downhill faster.

The auto stop for every downrigger I've ever seen is a PHYSICAL switch where that little plastic do-hicky or crimp that's connected to the cable trips the circuit. I'm not sure I've ever seen a system smart enough to use a ground reference without taking into account salinity, temperature, cable length, and electrical resistance. To put in perspective, I know I've never seen one with those type of circuits standard.

This is not a hot boat issue or a gounding problem so clear you minds here. This is probably just a loose connection or voltage line loss due to the wire being too small for the job. Check the connections first, then look to see that the wire you used to connect the riggers is at least a 14awg. If you installed a circuit breaker it also may be over taxed by the load and tripping.

One other question here, what is the condition of the battery? If one stops when the other turns on, you may be exceeding the available amperage available to both and dropping the voltage down below the operating minimum for the rigger. If this is an older or small battery, you may need to do a battery load test to ensure it has enough reserve to work as you want.

PM me if you want more help. This one seems pretty simple, just check your work and listen to Gundog. He's on the right track on this one.

-lol
WOW it's been a long time since I have been dressed down like that! So hear is a quote from the mag-5 manual and a flux capacitor would probably help.

"Your Boat's Electrical Condition
It is important to make sure that your boat is
properly set up before installing your Mag 10HS \
Mag 10TS \ Mag 5HS with Positive Ion Control.
Whenever a boat is in water, various submerged
parts interact to create weak electrical currents.
These weak electrical currents must be
controlled to extend the life of the boat's metal
parts and ensure a good fish catching
environment.
Check the zinc sacrificial anodes on your
boat and on the outboard/outdrive. If they are
more than 50% dissolved they should be
replaced. Any coating of slime or growth should
be cleaned off. All metal parts including the hull
(if metal) must be interconnected by a grounding
wire. This includes motor shafts, outdrives, and
through hull fittings.
If your boat and zincs are set up correctly,
the voltage on the stainless steel spool wire of
your downrigger should be positive when in
contact with the water. "

[sucker]

The auto stop feature works on mine. And yes the auto stop on the Canon has to do with a set screw on the DR spool and the insulator clip breaking the water. When that breaks out of the water the circuit is broken and it stops. Not too much magic involved.

I may have been confusing in my first post. The auto stop works just fine. It's the auto up part that does not always work. Once the auto up part works it's smooth sailing. I'll have to give it a little testing next time I'm out. Wasn't really planning on another kokanee trip but I can you can still test them while walleye fishing.

Thanks for the input
Most likely the same fault; when the rigger does not see the postitive voltage difference it thinks the cable is already out of the water and stops.

[DK]

Try installing a relay, it seems the voltage interuption is interferring