Ore Marine Bd [Archive] - www.ifish.net

bassdad54

07-12-2009, 08:02 AM

The Oregon State Marine Board is dealing with a sneaker wave of the first order that came ashore in the hectic last few days of the recent legislative melee in Salem.
With just a few days' notice, and at the Legislature's request to consolidate numerous bill requests about fighting off aquatic invaders, the Marine Board helped draft a new $5 permit required of everyone in the state who operates a boat or floating craft classified at 10 feet or longer.
Pole, pedal, paddle or gas or electric motor, there are no exceptions to the fee that will be in addition to current boaters' permits, fishing licenses and motor boat registrations. Permits would last two years for motorized boats and have to be renewed annually for nonmotorized craft.

sucker

07-12-2009, 10:09 AM

Washington is also implementing the same kind of thing. My fear is the whole thing will spin out of control like many government programs. Remember the DEQ which keeps changing names; started out as a good idea but turned into Natzies as they work to expand their control over our lives. Governments keep expanding and yes; sometimes; creating problems to solve. This creates more government jobs and agencies of the government tend to justify their exsistance any way they can. :twocents:

1bigfish

07-13-2009, 06:32 AM

Artical here...

http://www.registerguard.com/csp/cms/sites/web/news/sevendays/16366521-35/story.csp

sucker

07-13-2009, 06:54 AM

I guess I won't be buying an Oregon fishing license next year for my yearly trip to Brownlee in the spring as it looks like they are going to charge me and extra $20 to launch my boat. I usually spend a lot of money in Oregon on that trip for a few crappie but not next year.

Hunt'nFish

07-13-2009, 02:49 PM

saltchucker

07-13-2009, 09:30 PM

This has very little to do w/ invasive aquatics and EVERYTHING to do w/ $$$$.
A very sneeky backdoor deal. Little notice and no public opprotunity to comment.

Yeah sure, zebra mussels......:passout:
Cargo ships sure......my little sled? I highly doubt it.
IMO, we should revolt and refuse to pay. What joke, do they really think we are this stupid?
Hunt'nFish

Zebra mussles and the other one (can't remember the name) are spreading rapidly from sportcraft in lakes around the country where cargo ships do not go...they are very small. A boat left in the water can pick them up and they are hard to see. Streams all over the west including oregon are being affected by mud snail and others that got here probablly on wet wading boot owned by fisherman coming home from New Zealand. There are almost no budget dollars to have staff in state agencies deal with getting very basic information out to the public to help slow the spread....just sayin........might be it oughta be ten bucks and half goes to ODFW to deal with mud snail and boot borne invaders....:twocents:

sucker

07-14-2009, 05:22 AM

Zebra mussles and the other one (can't remember the name) are spreading rapidly from sportcraft in lakes around the country where cargo ships do not go...they are very small. A boat left in the water can pick them up and they are hard to see. Streams all over the west including oregon are being affected by mud snail and others that got here probablly on wet wading boot owned by fisherman coming home from New Zealand. There are almost no budget dollars to have staff in state agencies deal with getting very basic information out to the public to help slow the spread....just sayin........might be it oughta be ten bucks and half goes to ODFW to deal with mud snail and boot borne invaders....:twocents:

OK; sounds good, so how much should they charge for a boot inspection. They will surly need to hire 300 or 400 boot inspectors at $125,000 a year. May be they should have every one go to the ODFW office to have their boots inspected and buy a "boot ok stamp" each time they go to the river. Of course that means you need to get in line early if you wish to get on the river by noon.

saltchucker

07-14-2009, 07:30 AM

OK; sounds good, so how much should they charge for a boot inspection. They will surly need to hire 300 or 400 boot inspectors at $125,000 a year. May be they should have every one go to the ODFW office to have their boots inspected and buy a "boot ok stamp" each time they go to the river. Of course that means you need to get in line early if you wish to get on the river by noon.

How about up to date accurate information about the where these critters are present in state waters and descriptions of reasonable precautions that ethical resource users can use to do their part to limit their spread....Hey....let's get CRAZY and make it available and noticeable at points of license sales, boat ramps, fly shops, online etc.....that ought burn up a 5 dollar fee pretty fast....just sayin! I pay attention and do not know the present mud snail distribution of in Oregon .....this stuff sounds really really stupid until you realize how devastating these things can be. Invasives are not always disasters, but some of the headliners are often very bad and very expensive. We (sportsman) are the major vectors between lakes, and streams and we have the most to lose. Golfers could care less on the average. Is this stuff really news?

saltchucker

07-14-2009, 08:49 AM

Info on mud snails....http://seagrant.oregonstate.edu/sgpubs/onlinepubs/g06006_lowres.pdf

sucker

07-14-2009, 04:16 PM

How about up to date accurate information about the where these critters are present in state waters and descriptions of reasonable precautions that ethical resource users can use to do their part to limit their spread....Hey....let's get CRAZY and make it available and noticeable at points of license sales, boat ramps, fly shops, online etc.....that ought burn up a 5 dollar fee pretty fast....just sayin! I pay attention and do not know the present mud snail distribution of in Oregon .....this stuff sounds really really stupid until you realize how devastating these things can be. Invasives are not always disasters, but some of the headliners are often very bad and very expensive. We (sportsman) are the major vectors between lakes, and streams and we have the most to lose. Golfers could care less on the average. Is this stuff really news?
You are making my point that there will never be enough inspectors and inspection stations to controll the porblem of invasive species. Education is the only option that has a chance. Inspection of boat/trailers when entering the state may help somewhat to keep invasive species out that are not already in the state. It may be already too late for the mud snail as they are already in most river systems i.e. in the snake means they will mygrate throught the columbia and it tributaries. There are just too many boats and boots to inspect unless the owners are able to self inspect. There are many places on the net to find out what to look for. A bloated government agency is not the answer.

saltchucker

07-15-2009, 09:12 AM

You are making my point that there will never be enough inspectors and inspection stations to controll the porblem of invasive species. Education is the only option that has a chance. Inspection of boat/trailers when entering the state may help somewhat to keep invasive species out that are not already in the state. It may be already too late for the mud snail as they are already in most river systems i.e. in the snake means they will mygrate throught the columbia and it tributaries. There are just too many boats and boots to inspect unless the owners are able to self inspect. There are many places on the net to find out what to look for. A bloated government agency is not the answer.

Boot inspections? If you want to waste your time on straw man arguments knock yourself out! Don't put em on me! As for inspectiong boats trailering in from out of state? Maybe. IF you read this thread someone here did not believe that his little sled could transport mussels! OOPS! So.... yeah lots of education, probably some targeted inspections of boats, can't look at em all but in the process of the limited inspections you can educate the uniniformed boat owners (some of the people posting here). I am sure that I need to know more about this to keep from moving stuff around.

I don't think I advocated a bloated government agency. The new fee will not go very far to do basic education. If you don't trust Oregon Marine Board, I have no problem with that, I don't trust anyone really. Perphaps you should contact the agency, find the people who get put in charge and see if you can get on a citizens advisory board to make sure they do the best job possible with the limited money they have .
I have no problem with people criticizing government agencies, I take it seriously from people who are paying close attention and or participating. Are you in contact with OMB? The legislature? Generic anti-government rhetoric, which I have to say, 'bloated government agency' sounds like is kind of silly. How big is OMB? WHat are their statuatory mandates? How many positions have they lost and how much has their budget been reduced in the last year? If you know the answer to these questions maybe then call em bloated.......they are controlled and created by our representatives!

just sayin....

Hunt'nFish

07-15-2009, 09:49 AM

If this is such an issue, then why didn't the Marine Board request the permit to fund support for THEIR projects?
No, it came from the legislator w/ no ties to direct funding revenues to solely support Invasives Aquatics efforts by the OMB.
I smell a general fund revenue rat.

As was pointed out little info/education is put out to help educate folks like me, who believe transporting my sled from one side of the state to the other poses little risk to our waters. Boats coming into our state SURE, cargo ships coming into our waters SURE. Moving my sled around inside our borders from one unpolluted body to another, I doubt it.

You know some say that the zerbra mussels were the best thing that has happened to the great lakes. Cleaned polluted waters, salmon populations skyrocketed, bass & ducks feeding on them like crazy. Not everything about invasives is all bad. But, I guess if it causes man work he didn't have before, they are bad.

I say mandate all boats entering our state, hit the first weigh station for an inspection and entry fee.
Why should I pay? I'm not the problem. Sure I could use some education and info, then educate me. Don't tax me.
Can you understand my point of view?
Hunt'nFish

sucker

07-15-2009, 10:02 AM

Boot inspections? If you want to waste your time on straw man arguments knock yourself out! Don't put em on me! As for inspectiong boats trailering in from out of state? Maybe. IF you read this thread someone here did not believe that his little sled could transport mussels! OOPS! So.... yeah lots of education, probably some targeted inspections of boats, can't look at em all but in the process of the limited inspections you can educate the uniniformed boat owners (some of the people posting here). I am sure that I need to know more about this to keep from moving stuff around.

I don't think I advocated a bloated government agency. The new fee will not go very far to do basic education. If you don't trust Oregon Marine Board, I have no problem with that, I don't trust anyone really. Perphaps you should contact the agency, find the people who get put in charge and see if you can get on a citizens advisory board to make sure they do the best job possible with the limited money they have .
I have no problem with people criticizing government agencies, I take it seriously from people who are paying close attention and or participating. Are you in contact with OMB? The legislature? Generic anti-government rhetoric, which I have to say, 'bloated government agency' sounds like is kind of silly. How big is OMB? WHat are their statuatory mandates? How many positions have they lost and how much has their budget been reduced in the last year? If you know the answer to these questions maybe then call em bloated.......they are controlled and created by our representatives!

just sayin....
I am sure; at one time, the IRS was not a bloated agency. They all seem to grow out of control.:twocents:

kmk1012

07-15-2009, 11:19 PM

sucker

07-16-2009, 04:58 PM

I also agree with Hunt'nfish:applause:

saltchucker

07-19-2009, 09:39 AM

All I can say is glad you guys are NOT in charge....nothing personal but serisouly

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090718/ap_on_re_us/us_invasive_mussels_1

If you don't want to bother reading you should know that of 6300 boats inspected going into Lake Tahoe (not cargo ships Hunt -n- fish but boats much like yours) 470 were found contaminated and cleaned, 10 were quarantined. IF you are not worried about private boats like yours carrying non-natives you are WRONG WRONG WRONG! Of the boats going into tahoe described above roughly 1 in 20 were major multimillion dollar potential disasters. Obvioulsy CA has it bad with lake mead etc, but the train is coming.

For the record I think boat inspection stations at weigh stations is a GREAT idea, however, given the level of misinformation showne here about the risks posed by private boats all boaters should be hearing about it and paying to fund prevention and education. Ten bucks? Come on guys!

Look I am not defending the program per se, it would not surprise me at all if the state did not use all that money on inspections, if that is the case it is our fault. IF we are not paying attention and providing input and hassling our reps then we get what we get. Would you own a business assume all the employees should do what is best for you and expect sympathy if you showed up 2 years later and did not like what you find? Same with the government! Watch, participate etc....

It is too bad that sportsmen whine about the IRS as an excuse for not surporting or helping to put together good programs to protect the states waters.... I think it should be ODFW doing this because they at least have biologists on staff unlike Oregon Marine Board....but this whole problem is taking states by surprise all over the country.

The longer we can keep exotic mussels, snails, algae etc out of the state the better....of course if you don't mind the disasters and digging sand out of your ears later knock yourself out!

WR

saltchucker

07-19-2009, 09:46 AM

Hunt'nfish, you are absolutely correct! Even if I thought it out, wrote a first draft, then finalized it, I could not have put it more spot on! Keep up the good work, lets push for more legitimate way of doing government. If I didn't vote to pay for it then the forced dollars out of my HARD earned money better go where they said they would!:applause:

Either you did not vote for the state races last election cycle or you DID vote for it. We give the power to enact these rules to our legislature. We don't always get the candidate we want, and we don't always get exactly what we want out of the legislature, but it is a legitemate way of doing government. I strongly encourage you to find out who your representatives are and contact them to let them know you are interested in how these programs are run. Trust me they pay attention to voters who get in touch.

WR

Hunt'nFish

07-20-2009, 11:25 AM

Ok, after reading and reading AND even more reading, I concede that my boating activities can possibly contribute to the spread of invasive aquatics.

But I also have learned that so does just about ANY water related activity ranging from fishing swimming and the transportation of any material which has been exposed to said water; waders, water toys, dogs, migrating birds, EVERYTHING! What I've also learned is that this spread is accepted as inevitable. And efforts will only slow the spread at best, considering the microscopic nature of these critters and their larvae & eggs and their tolerance to being out of water for days, even weeks.
So their spread is eminent and cost to industry is high.

What I haven't been able to find is any evidence of documented negative impact to biological species. Lots of speculation of displacement, etc...but no cases of threatened or endangered species. All I see is fish populations increasing as a result of the new food source and increased water clarity and purity. I haven't seen any data on mean water temp impact either, only speculation. Lots of speculation and "what if" scenarios surround all of this.

OK, agreed, we have an issue on our hands. But is it one we can win? No.
What is the eventual impact? Maybe nothing except cleaner water, a return of native aquatic vegetation as light penetration is returned pre-human conditions, and of course there is the very real cost to industry to deal w/ it. But in a lot of ways I see industry as the root cause. As industry becomes global, and it already is, the world becomes one big ecosystem....not a collection of isolated ecosystems. Is that necessarily bad? Maybe, maybe not.
Natives will adapt or be replaced by another, such is evolution.

Again if it weren't for the cost to industry, would anyone be focusing so much attention on this? Probably not.
I seriously doubt nature cares if one mussel takes over in an-other's place.
Yes, one fish species might suffer...while another thrives under the new conditions. SO WHAT. Nature is self correcting and always seeks a balance.
I guess what I'm saying is I don't think the world is going to come to an end just because of this.
Evolution is always at work. And yes, man has accelerated it, so what.
Until man to stops traveling the world and shipping goods globally, we'll have these dilemmas.
How can we complain or expect their not to be consequences?
If it isn't giant rats in Key West, lice causing HLS in our deer, it's mussels and snails.
The world is a much smaller place today. I suppose the environmental bodies spending billions of dollars each year to study this, and study that, must accept that we can't stop the inevitable.
But what would all these government researchers do if their wasn't some ECO DISASTER to fight?....Get a real job that pays taxes rather than spends it? Ohhhhh, but we can't have that.

Ok, got my anti-gov poke & jab in for the day. (I apologize if any of you here are gov leaches.)
I'm just tired of being taxed, permitted & fee'ed to death.
I just want to fish in peace.
Hunt'nFish

Herm

07-20-2009, 11:56 AM

1bigfish

07-20-2009, 12:58 PM

saltchucker, with all due respect, I don't know where you came up with the idea that ANY of this money will go towards education.

House Bill 2020
http://www.leg.state.or.us/09reg/measpdf/hb2000.dir/hb2020.a.pdf

I don't see the word education in the bill anywhere.

saltchucker

07-20-2009, 01:02 PM

I appreciate your thoughtful response, and agree that this stuff is a hassle. However, look into mud snails and how severely they transform bug populations on streams in Montana....As for the mussels, the worst thing we know is that they are likely to be expensive. You are right that it is hard to know exactly how they will affect lakes and rivers in OR.

You are also right that all manner of things can move critters around, wading boot are the likely source of mud snails to MT via fly fisherman coming from NZ. It will get worse. In Florida it is the exotic pet freaks who dump every weird thing they can buy in the glades when it gets too big....15 foot pythons born in the wild, 6 foot nile monitor lizards that hunt is small groups. You damn well oughta have to get a permit to own dangerous animals that can screw up my public lands. It is not inevitable everywhere, however, and it is worth working hard to prevent their spread.

Rec boats are and have been a really really important vector for biological trainwrecks for decades....it should be OLD NEWS and boaters should be well informed about what is out there, what it takes to clean boats or keep them clean and where these things are. Boaters are not well informed as it stands. It is high time we got started.

It would be a mistake to let an anecdotal account of mussels in the great lakes lead a person to believe that they are innocuous or will increase fish populations by increasing food, very little eats them.

We all want to hunt and fish in peace. Fees, permits, licenses etc are a hassle. As for the role of government in resource management, the only reason we have half way decent hunting and fishing are goverment agencies and the fees we pay to keep them in business. At least give agencies credit for that. Criticize em when you think they have it wrong, they are far from perfect, but fer crying out loud aim carefully and be well informed.

As for problems with boats, should we tax everyone to pay for the problems we create? I think user fees make sense. Don't boat? Don't pay! Boat? You pay. Why should my non-boating, non-hunting, non-fishing,non-camping friends pay for my recreation through higher taxes? The studies I have seen suggest that recreation is the most heavily subsidized activity on national forests, so my family in florida pays higher taxes to look after my hunting spots...

A good place to start is to figure out where rules come from, what it takes to change a rule and what are the best ways for citizens to provide direct input. I just got off the phone with the BLM and found out that a prominent OHA member from an east side chapter fed me a whole lot of very bad info at a boat ramp.....instead of a cherry he put a conspiracy theory on top. The whole thing was assinine!

How about we look into the Marine board thing and get involved?

WR

1bigfish

07-20-2009, 01:25 PM

its five dollars

"The annual permit will cost $5 ($20 for a motorboat operated by a nonresident), plus a service fee of up to $2."

How much $$$ per inspection? Is that where the $2 comes in? How often will a boat need to be instected? Where will the inspection stations be set up at?

A few years ago Clear Lake in CA started inspecting. From those I talked to that fish there it was a nightmare to get you boat inspected. Think about what it would be like if you were trying to launch your boat in the Willy during shad or springer season and had to wait in line to have your boat inspected before you could launch. And if the inspector doesn't show up until 8am, too bad you have to wait. And of course there is only one inspection station for the entire lower river. Once you are inspected then you can launch at whatever ramp you choose. Not sure if Clear Lake is still doing it and what it is like now but it sure was not pretty when they started it two years ago.

For me there is a whole lot of information about the program and how it is going to work for me to say if it is going to be worth the money I will end up paying for it, but I will not hold my breath on getting my moneys worth.

:twocents:

Hunt'nFish

07-20-2009, 02:56 PM

Saltchucker,
You sound like you know a thing or two about this, what agency/dept do you work for?
It's ok, I'm not gonna bite. Just want some idea where your talking from.
It's not that I'm 100% opposed to paying a fee, I just want to know what for and why.
It's just that every time we turn around we get some new fee/tax or restriction tossed on us w/ little or no justification. And quite frankly we've become quite anti-gov in the process. I do agree that little to no information has been put out to justify this new fee. After reading many of the links you provided (BTW, thank you), I feel a little more informed as to why all the concern and hoopla. I am curious if you or anyone you know has any estimates on how many $$ in revenue this will generate and how much of it will be dedicated to OMB Invasive Aquatics Education and inspections?

By my accounts there are approx 186,000 registered boats in Oregon (Oregon Boat Registration Summary) (http://www.marinetitle.com/boat-registration/OR-Oregon.htm) and approx 500,000 canoes, rafts, kayaks and drift boats. Not to mention an unknown number of floating docks and other structures.

Simple math suggests that represents over $3.4 Million in revenues annually to the general fund.
I'm curious what portion of that is BUGETED for Invasive Aquatics Education and Inspection?

I find it odd that this was pushed through so quickly w/o public comment at a time when Salem is faced w/ such a huge budget shortfall. I'm no scientist but I'm not stupid either.
Sure, lets tax those boaters in the name of invasives and shuttle the money elsewhere.
I'll shut my mouth when I see 100% of these fees going DIRECTLY into OMB Invasive Aquatics projects, if that is truly what the fee is for.
Or is this to help fund Kulongoski's Marine Reserves pet project?......I wonder.
Hunt'nFish

Grain of Salt

07-20-2009, 03:05 PM

The invasive species must be highly intelligent...apparently they will not attach themselves to anything under ten feet.

I am with HnF on this...not against it, just skeptical of the money trail.

My guess....another bill that died was to attempt to register all floating craft (again).

This was a quick way around it....cept for all the under 10 foot kayak crowd that never leave the state.

Hunt'nFish

07-20-2009, 04:41 PM

Good point Grain of Salt.
There appears to be just as much concern over fisherman & waterfowlers and their waders as there is with boats.
But I don't see any educational information/alerts/etc being put out to educate them.
And as a waterfowler if you think I'm going to wash my waders after each hunt......YOUR NUTS.
In fact I think most folks won't do much of what is recommended.
How many of you wash & wipe your bilge and livewells dry before leaving each launch?...Like ZERO.
And from what I read these little buggers get into the cooling systems of motors and get taken for a ride that way.
From what I read it's darned near impossible to prevent thier spread.
But we're going to do all this just because it makes us feel good, like we're doing "something", anything, even if deep down we know it won't stop them.

Ok, I guess I'm on board w/ this feel good tax....even if I know it doesn't matter.
At least we boaters are doing "something". :cool:
Hunt'nFish

saltchucker

07-20-2009, 06:42 PM

I don't work for any agencies. I am trained as a scientitist in natural resource mgmt and have had occassion to look closely at how laws work and how they get translated into bureaucratic processes, and how science enters into it, pretty damn interesting. The one thing I learned is every law and rule makes sense, if you don't think so you simply don't know whose angle it makes sense from, and how they managed to swing things their way :) Stupid wasteful craxy laws and rules are the product of lazy uninformed voters who think they should not have to pay attention....oops! Politicians are like dogs who eat dark smelly things we prefer to bury, and I love my dogs some of whom have appalling taste....On the average they do what rational reasonable people do working in the system, and on the average the system serves vested interests ranging from money to members of the public who pay attention and stay on their buts....Not saying you can always get what you want.

I know next to nothing about this new fee, but even if it is lame we need to start something. And it will be an excuse to raise hell if it is done poorly! As for the boat size thing, whatever, it sure ain't perfect. But then again how many people leave boats under 10 feet in the water for long enough to pick up sessile mussels and trailer them to a new lake, not saying it don't happen, it is just rare. If anyone has unanswered questions call OMB, and your representatives and keep calling till you get info. Find out what committees it came out of, who is on the commitee, who are their staff, call em, ask direct questions....

I would love to have inspections for all boats going into diamond for bait wells....that, and horsewhip anyone hauling in live bait :) I am a little old fashioned.

WR

sucker

07-21-2009, 03:06 PM

I would impose a $1k fine for not taking due care to avoid the spread of invasive species. For intent to transport of invasive species such as live aquatic species for live bait I would suggest a $10k fine and up to a year in jail. I am against punishing those who make the effort to protect the environment instead of those who are the problem. It should be handled just like any other requirement for operation of a watercraft. Boats under 10 feet are just as likely to be infected as the average fishing boat that goes out for a day and then sits in the garage for two or three weeks before going out again. One question I would like an asnwer to is how do we stop waterfowl from spreading invasive species?; or is that ok.

Lurp

07-21-2009, 03:14 PM

Hunting fees, fishing fees, boating fees, What about gillnet license fees ?
Why do the sportsman who are losing fishing and hunting every year, along with the pleasure boaters have to pay extra when the commercial guys never get their fees raised???????????????????????????????

saltchucker

07-21-2009, 07:44 PM

Gill netters? What are you talking about? As far as I know the only gill netting in the state is in the Columbia, do you think those guys are moving their boats around alot? I think they should be covered by the fee, but I suspect that commercial boat licenses are considerably more expensive than our fees.

As for large fines for people hauling around problem species on purpose, I would back it. But ,besides diamond, the main problem is boats, rec boats, moving things inadvertantly, and it seems very unlikely that fines could ever generate enough revenue to solve a problem created by boaters and fisherman moving things accidentally. I do not think we should hit up the non-fishing, non-boating taxpayer for this, it is our problem we should pay for it.........I thought you guys were anti-tax, sounds like you want general fund tax dollars to pay for this..... or did I miss somethin? It seems like a weird idea to me to cut funding in shools in the same year you spend general fund dollars on a boating problem rather than fund it with a modest fee...

As for waterfowl, in Texas it was alway believed that ducks moved brehm (bluegill etc) around in shallow ponds and tanks created to water cows. I kinda doubt they are likely to move the mussels, but they could move mud snails I guess. It is interesting that muds snail infestions tend to pop up where alot of sportfisherman go, and not so much in major waterfowl staging areas. Not sure about how the biology of ducks and snails works out but as of now it seems like not much of a problem, could be...Good creative thinking though!

My understanding is that mud snails are a major threat to freestone cool water, insect/fish factories. Not that much duck hunting in these streams, there is some for sure, but not so much. It seems like duck hunters are less of a problem but who knows, could be!

wr

arkansasbasser

07-22-2009, 05:50 AM

sucker

07-22-2009, 06:05 AM

"As for large fines for people hauling around problem species on purpose, I would back it. But ,besides diamond, the main problem is boats, rec boats, moving things inadvertantly, and it seems very unlikely that fines could ever generate enough revenue to solve a problem created by boaters and fisherman moving things accidentally."

The fines would create enough revenue only if the problem is as bad as claimed.

sucker

07-22-2009, 07:06 AM

Can someone explain to me why when we contract a service we expect to receive the service and then pay for it; however, many feel with government you need to pay first and hope they provide the service.

saltchucker

07-22-2009, 06:40 PM

saltchucker

07-22-2009, 06:48 PM

Good point Dave. Comments anyone?

Re read section (2) paragraphs 3 and 4. Education is not stated but is is certainly well within the statutory authority. I would say that you can't carry out the directives without some measure of educations, at least that would be my main point when lobbying the agency....

Did you notice that the fee goes into it's own fund that earns interest that stays in the fund, the state takes an admistrative fee, but it appears as if it would be ILLEGAL to put the fund into the general fund.

Another example of the value of reading this stuff before making wild charges about the legislature doing this to augment general fund....look back in the thread. Overall the bill looks pretty good, it will work a lot better if we get involved, pay attention, and provide concrete specific criticisms and relevant suggestions....

WR

arkansasbasser

07-22-2009, 07:21 PM

Overall the bill looks pretty good, it will work a lot better if we get involved, pay attention, and provide concrete specific criticisms and relevant suggestions....

WRMaybe you don't have anything better to do? Personally, I've got all my plate can handle trying to pay attention to the 100,000 other things my govt. is forcing down my throat along with all the family and friend things, plus my job, and etc, etc, etc. I don't need another thing to pay attention to. Show me that's it's a problem that needs 3.4 million or whatever and I'll pay without blinking. Otherwise, I'd rather not have to give it my attention.

sucker

07-22-2009, 08:30 PM

Re Sucker logic on fines vs fee....actually if the problem is as bad as claimed then intentional violations are the rarity not the norm, hence accidental introductions are the major problem and fees on rec boats are probably the only fair way to deal with it. Except at Diamond lake which has a 50 or more year history of introductions gone awry, almost certainly due to live bait fisherman. Or did I miss some part of your arguement that made it make sense....

RE sucker logic on goverment vs contrated services.......ummmm....maybe because democratic governments are not a fee for service system! Last I checked I don't get to opt out of costs that we through our government incur. Nor are my individual wants and desires the most important consideration of public agencies....just sayin! Now if you wan't truly efficient government you merely need to recall **** Germany, the taxes were very high but it was EFFICIENT!

If you prefer freedom to efficiency consider the case of Somalia. It is kind of a like an experimental control to illustrate what the absence of industrialized democratic governement looks like these days....think of it! no taxes fees or permits, religious freedom (as long as you can defend it), no gun control. Sounds good huh? Sure it is an envinronmental catastrophe, it is not safe, bribing your way through the day probably gets expensive, no public health service to protect from endemic malaria, HIV is rampant, the roads are horrible but at least you would not look silly packing a sidearm around all the time. Oh and you can have as many wives as you can afford and want. I think slaves are also ok if you are discreet.:whistle: Give me the good old USA where we pay the lowest federal income taxes since WW2 when the maximum rate was over 70%

WR
To start with the USA is not a Democracy it is a Republic. That said you should re-read my post: the $1k fine is for not takeing due care (this means if you don't make a honest effort to inspect and clean your own boat.); intentional violation would incure $10k fine and possible jail time. Without personal responsiblity our Represenative Republic will not work. I clean my boat and drain my bilge between trips even when going back to the same water body. In addition; the state has a history of charging fees/taxes for a specific purpose and later deverting the funds for something else. We elect representives to make these decisions for us. If we don't like what they did we can vote for someone else. Our representatives have the athority to change the law and re-assigh the funds; and sometimes they do.

saltchucker

07-23-2009, 09:38 AM

To start with the USA is not a Democracy it is a Republic. That said you should re-read my post: the $1k fine is for not takeing due care (this means if you don't make a honest effort to inspect and clean your own boat.); intentional violation would incure $10k fine and possible jail time. Without personal responsiblity our Represenative Republic will not work. I clean my boat and drain my bilge between trips even when going back to the same water body. In addition; the state has a history of charging fees/taxes for a specific purpose and later deverting the funds for something else. We elect representives to make these decisions for us. If we don't like what they did we can vote for someone else. Our representatives have the athority to change the law and re-assigh the funds; and sometimes they do.

Sucker, come on, I mean seriously! A quick def of a republic is a government without a monarch, so yes we are a republic. IF you want to take it back to it's roots my quick check suggested that Nicolo Machiavelli coined the term and what he described was not even remotely democratic. A quick def of democracy is a government in which the right to govern is vested in the citizens and excercised through majority rule, so, again, yes we are a democracy. False dichotomy. In the Bush Gore race Bush lost the popular vote by about 500,000 votes and won the electoral college vote, so technically there are cases where you can get fewer actual votes and win an election , majority rule can fail. However, these rules were promulgated by majority rule, they can be changed through majority rule so IMO they still count.
I honestly have no idea what you are talking about. Founding fathers viewed our experiment as a republic grounded in a representative democracy. I really don't know what you are talking about.

Exactly why we need to pay attention to what governement is doing. To Arkasasbasser, I was just pointing out that the point someone made about education was off base, as was the fear that the fee would go into the general fund. Of course lawmakers can raid these funds, look at the tobacco settlement money very little went into education, and I am not sure the rest went into healthcare.

So, you definitely have to pay attention and IMO the first and best timsaver is taking the time to read things to make sure they say what other people say they say before you get your undies in a bunch.

Just sayin. No the fee is not perfect, yes sucker would pass draconian punitive laws to help prevent the spread of exotics in If he would only get involved rather than spend too much time on the message boards. I mean five bucks seriously, it is outrageous!:)

1bigfish

07-23-2009, 10:42 AM

Re read section (2) paragraphs 3 and 4. Education is not stated but is is certainly well within the statutory authority. I would say that you can't carry out the directives without some measure of educations, at least that would be my main point when lobbying the agency....
WR

(3) The Invasive Species Council may expend moneys from the account to provide funding
for efforts by agencies, organizations and individuals to eradicate or control new infestations
and infections of invasive species. The council shall adopt criteria and procedures for the
funding of efforts to eradicate or control new infestations and infections of invasive species.

:confused:
Eradicate and control new infestations is the ONLY thing mentioned in this paragraph. So where do you get education from? Are they going to educate us on what has already been infested? OK I guess putting up a sign saying "the body of water you are now launching at is infested but we are trying to eradicate and/or control the infestation." OK I guess you could define that as education.

(4) Invasive species eradication and control effort costs that may be funded from the
account include, but are not limited to, costs associated with:
(a) Surveys to delimit areas infested or infected by invasive species;
(b) Inspections;
(c) Enforcement actions;
(d) Diagnosis of infestation and infection problems;
(e) Rapid response planning and coordination;
(f) Administration;
(g) Eradication or control of infestations and infections;
(h) Treatment and disposal of infested or infected materials;
(i) Cleaning and disinfecting of infested or infected premises or vessels; and
(j) Payment of indemnity to owners of infested or infected materials destroyed under an eradication or control program.

(a)Surveys... well I guess they will educate themelves.
(b)Inspections...Maybe if you get the right inspector they will actuall say why they are inspecting you boat.
(c)Enforment... well a guess some people will consider a ticket educational.
(d)Diagnosis... Again they will educate themselves I guess.
(e)Rapid response... Highly trained SWAT team to eradicate the invasive species.
(f)Administration...well now we know where the money is going
(g)Eradication...same a paragraph (3)
(h)treatment and disposal...don't see any education here
(i)cleaning and disinfecting...don't see any education here
(j)Payment...pay off the people who have their property destoyed by the SWAT team.

So I guess the puplic will be educated by the person who is slowing you down from getting your boat in the water(I sure people will be real reseptive to that). And if they fail that education then the ticket will educate them.

I here by bow to your ability to read this and find the education portion. I had to read it at least 20 times in order to see where you got the education part of it from. But I guess it's in there.:rolleyes:

sucker

07-23-2009, 11:56 AM

Sucker, come on, I mean seriously! A quick def of a republic is a government without a monarch, so yes we are a republic. IF you want to take it back to it's roots my quick check suggested that Nicolo Machiavelli coined the term and what he described was not even remotely democratic. A quick def of democracy is a government in which the right to govern is vested in the citizens and excercised through majority rule, so, again, yes we are a democracy. False dichotomy. In the Bush Gore race Bush lost the popular vote by about 500,000 votes and won the electoral college vote, so technically there are cases where you can get fewer actual votes and win an election , majority rule can fail. However, these rules were promulgated by majority rule, they can be changed through majority rule so IMO they still count.
I honestly have no idea what you are talking about. Founding fathers viewed our experiment as a republic grounded in a representative democracy. I really don't know what you are talking about.

Exactly why we need to pay attention to what governement is doing. To Arkasasbasser, I was just pointing out that the point someone made about education was off base, as was the fear that the fee would go into the general fund. Of course lawmakers can raid these funds, look at the tobacco settlement money very little went into education, and I am not sure the rest went into healthcare.

So, you definitely have to pay attention and IMO the first and best timsaver is taking the time to read things to make sure they say what other people say they say before you get your undies in a bunch.

Just sayin. No the fee is not perfect, yes sucker would pass draconian punitive laws to help prevent the spread of exotics in If he would only get involved rather than spend too much time on the message boards. I mean five bucks seriously, it is outrageous!:)
Your correct; I give up; You win; we sure do not want to punish the people causing the problem. I am going fishing.

1bigfish

07-23-2009, 12:12 PM

saltchucker, I will be nice and include a hint for you. I know how badly you want to support HB2020 and are trying hard to find a way to say that part of the money will go to EDUCATION even though there is nothing in HB2020 that says any money will go to education. I know you want to believe that there is no way they could have overlooked EDUCATION. Sorry, but you are just not going to find it in this bill.

So here is you hint...
Ask yourself why HB2020 does not include Education not as part of Oergon Marine Board's statutory authority. Also ask yourself why is no money from HB2020 is EVER going to go for education.

I know you can get this if you would just stop trying to defend this bill for one minute and ask yourself these questions.

1bigfish

07-24-2009, 06:23 AM

Hint number 2. See website below.

http://www.boatoregon.com/OSMB/Clean/ANS.shtml

OK since I know most of you won’t click the link I will explain it to you. The reason HB2020 does not include education on invasive species is because the Oregon State Marine Board(OSMB) is already in charge of education on invasive species. OSMB has been in charge of the education for years and already receives funding for educating the public. OSMB has failed to prevent them from getting into Oregon’s waterways with their education programs.

IMHO despite this bill actually using the word prevention(it does use it once) this bill has nothing to do with prevention and everything to do with clean up. HB2020 is about funding the clean up of lakes and river already infested with these buggers.(and as some people believe, create more government jobs)

Now with that said, can we please once and for all stop talking about this bill having anything to do with education and talk about what this bill really says.

Saltchucker, I appreciate you passion on the subject of invasive species like the Zebra mussel and Mud snail. I really do. I hope that your posts on this thread helped to educate some of the people who actually took the time to read your posts about the danger some of these invaders pose.

INSAYN

07-25-2009, 06:26 PM

:lurk:

Sure got quiet in the last 36 hours.

Tar Heel

07-26-2009, 12:26 AM

There was an informative piece on Oregon Field Guide last year re the Z Muscles and Mud Snails--and it's not a pretty picture they showed.I think with some of these government programs directed at specific problems we need to bite the bullet and hope that the money will be spent efficiently (hard to swallow, I know, but just imposing the fee will educate alot of folks, even if they dont hire inspectors). I would hate to see mud snails in the D, or muscles in the C, and I do believe the governmnet when it says there simply isnt any money in the agency budget to address these critical issues. If in 2 yrs we had one or both of these nasty criters here and they hadnt done anything to try to prevent it--what would we be saying then?

saltchucker

07-26-2009, 11:53 AM

Just got off the river. Fishing was good and there were lot's of bugs and not obviousl exotic snails. I will freezing my boots if I go out before they completely dry! I think education is a good idea, I think it is possible under the bill, but based on what has been posted the question is why we are not putting the fire to OSMB's rear ends to do it much much better. Is this bill even about Marine Board, it was Oregon Dept Ag that was named in the description posted above. Yes? Or do I misremember.

It is nice to get some insider dope on this. Thanks! We are facing a fast approaching train, I just harrased, in a friendly way, an ODFW employee friend about why there is nothing about this at Point of Sale locations. They indicated they did not personally know ahout this bill and will get in touch with the ODFW person in charge of invasives sp. This stuf should be in our faces at fishing stores, boat ramps etc....It should not be one state agency it should be every agency that has relevant duties or public contact....ODA, ODFW, OSMB.....any others?

WR