Shakedown run. HELP!

[Beginners luck]

Well, after too long of storage I finally got the boat out and took her up to Detroit to make sure everything works right before the big fish call my name. First off. Its a 1997 Suzuki DT-140 2 stroke with a pump. Ran great since I bought her last summer. Tank was full during storage. Inside a barn and had a full bottle of stabilizer in it. Got her out and she would start and idle great as usual. Put some throttle to her? and she cuts out above 3000RPM and falls on the nose. Back to idle? Runs like a charm. Everything I know points to a fuel problem....Swapped plugs out on the water and the old ones looked wet but not fouled. Thoughts?
I drained the bowls and checked the fuel filter on the engine back a camp and all looked good. Water in fuel problem? I have a lot of respect for the knowledge base here. If a little ribbing is appropriate. Im good with it.:flowered:

[k9jeff]

Last year my merc did the same thing. It turned out to be the high speed stator. I had the carbs done and replaced the stator and it runs great.

[fish_on]

When it starts lagging can you pump the primer bulb and see a difference?

[Beginners luck]

When it starts lagging can you pump the primer bulb and see a difference?

I didnt try that. I did just pick up another fuel filter/water separator and fuel line assembly with a new primer bulb. Im hoping that will do it prior to taking it to the dealer for a wallet spanking.

K9jeff. I will not rule that out. Thanks for your info. If the fuel line work doesnt do it. I will have that checked.

[fishkisser]

Good Luck looks like it is starved for fuel ... Is it mechanical or electronic spark advance ? ...

[budnate]

pull and blow the carbs out with carb cleaner and air, Suzukis carbs plug super easy! even with stablizer in them.

B.

[Highmark]

I has something like this happen . I looked and looked. What I found after
removing the box in the back was a the fuel line has a kink in it. it would
run fine at idle and till it starves itself out, them almost die. shut it off
pump the bulb, start it up it would run fine till you hit the throttle and it
all started again. any way it was a kinked fuel line that was the problem.
I replaced the fuel filter,and housing. but the nothing fixed it. Till I found that darn fuel line with a kink in it.

Herman

[Beginners luck]

Good Luck looks like it is starved for fuel ... Is it mechanical or electronic spark advance ? ...

Im not sure if its mechanical or electronic advance.
I replaced the fuel/water filter and the entire fuel line assembly to the engine. Primer bulb included.
Running the engine in a garbage can is not much of an option with a pump so I will back it down to the river on Friday and give it a whirl. If that doesnt do it. Its off to the shop for a spanking...........Thanks everyone for the thoughts. It gives me plenty to work with.:pray:
You guys are awesome!

[Michael in Oregon]

When we were checking it out @ camp, I saw that it IS electronic advance Andy!

[fishkisser]

Might just need a new module or have the existing one flashed with a new program if possible ...:twocents:

[Beginners luck]

I know its been a while since I posted this but figured it needed following up on....
I ended up taking my boat to a Suzuki authorized repair facility in Oregon city.....To remain unamed for now. Again I will say that the motor ran great at startup and up to about 3000 RPM. It would not rev any higher. It would cut out as if it was starving for fuel or hitting a rev limiter. The repair outfit said they river tested it and that the carbs needed to be rebuilt. To the tune of $500 greenbacks. In addition, I wanted the oil injection serviced and the water pump replaced.... All in all, I waited about 3 weeks and got a bill of $1185 dollars.
I was unable to run the boat prior to taking it on vacation. I took her up to East Lake on my outing and found that it has the same problem now that it had when I took it in. The service manager assured me that "It Ran GREAT when it left our shop! We river tested it!"
I was able to speak to the tech that worked on it and he sounded somewhat apologetic and gave me some troubleshooting tips. I went through all the steps and no improvement. Now he says the problem may be the ECM. To the tune of $1000 to $1200? And they want me to bring it BACK???? I need advice on how to approach this objectively.....Even if the carbs did need rebuildiing...They were not the problem and I paid them to diagnose and fix the problem..IDEAS anyone? Im real hesitant to open up my wallet to these guys again.. :help:

[bigredapes]

Especially if it lived in a barn for a while... have you looked for where the mouse ate through the insulation on your wiring harness? I don't know the exact electronics/physics of why it would only happen above certain speeds, but if it sounds like a rev limiter I'd vote for spark shorting out somewhere from coil -> distributor -> plug wires -> spark plugs.

[Gundog]

I would take it some place else it sounds like they are trouble shooting by changing parts and it could get expensive before they find the right part.
Mike

[Danno]

Ask them to go with you on the river trial.

Is it possible it's something that only affects it at altitude?

Remember that you asked for the other $700 worth of service so your complaint is only over the $500 for the carb rebuild. Since they did not fix the problem, you might ask that they provide the next service labor free.

[Beginners luck]

Ask them to go with you on the river trial.

Is it possible it's something that only affects it at altitude?

Remember that you asked for the other $700 worth of service so your complaint is only over the $500 for the carb rebuild. Since they did not fix the problem, you might ask that they provide the next service labor free.

After some rather warm discussions. They agreed to let me attend the river testing...The rest im sure we will have to negotiate. And you are right Danno. The issue is the $500 on the carbs. They did seem to be a bit too willing to dish out the shop hours on all of it at $90 per hour. But the carbs are the focal point.
The boat ran fine last season at sea level to 5000 feet. Never had it beyond that. And its a pole barn its stored in. But sealed up from rodents very effectively. Not to say one cant get in. Thanks for the input fellas!:applause:

[ET]

I look forward to hearing the outcome.

[Beginners luck]

Is it unreasonable of me to ask that the $500 spent on the carbs that didnt need to be spent go toward fixing the actual problem? Let me know if thats out of line because as its been said. Changing parts to troubleshoot it ridiculous if you ask me.....

[fishingls]

This is a tough one. How does anyone know for certain if the problem wasn't a combination of items--carbs and ecm. How do you know that the ecm didn't fail after having the carbs worked on?
The majority of techs are pretty straight shooters. If you talked to the tech, listen to what he is saying. Perhaps the carbs needed service. This is a tough call.
It isn't easy being a tech. Techs are asked to do the best they can do and most techs really care about the customer. A good tech takes pride in the results of his work.
Bottom line of this discussion is the tech's integrity even though his employer is ultimately responsilbe for his performance.

People may not want to hear this, but mosts boat repair shops and auto repair shops barely make a profit on labor sales. The rule of thumb used by consultants for labor rates are the highest paid tech's hourly wage (including benefits) divided by .3 gets the shops internal rate. That number divided by .8 gets the retail rate. It takes this kind of hourly rate for shops to make an average return on investment. Most shops are fearful of charging an appropriate rate. For example, a tech earning $20.00 per hour (techs annual income would be 41,600) with two weeks of annual vacation, some sick leave, medical---with state taxes and employer's share of social security tax factored in would give a posted shop rate of about $115.00 per hour.
Now the cruel irony, a good marine tech earning $20.00 per hour has the skills and ability to make more elsewhere. Visit with any marine dealer prinicple (owner or GM) and they will tell you how tough it is becoming to recruit good people to be techs and keep them after they have been trained. Boat owners do not want to pay a shop rate commensurate that would retain good techs in the marine industry.

[Michael in Oregon]

This is a tough one. How does anyone know for certain if the problem wasn't a combination of items--carbs and ecm. How do you know that the ecm didn't fail after having the carbs worked on?
The majority of techs are pretty straight shooters. If you talked to the tech, listen to what he is saying. Perhaps the carbs needed service. This is a tough call.
It isn't easy being a tech. Techs are asked to do the best they can do and most techs really care about the customer. A good tech takes pride in the results of his work.
Bottom line of this discussion is the tech's integrity even though his employer is ultimately responsilbe for his performance.

People may not want to hear this, but mosts boat repair shops and auto repair shops barely make a profit on labor sales. The rule of thumb used by consultants for labor rates are the highest paid tech's hourly wage (including benefits) divided by .3 gets the shops internal rate. That number divided by .8 gets the retail rate. It takes this kind of hourly rate for shops to make an average return on investment. Most shops are fearful of charging an appropriate rate. For example, a tech earning $20.00 per hour (techs annual income would be 41,600) with two weeks of annual vacation, some sick leave, medical---with state taxes and employer's share of social security tax factored in would give a posted shop rate of about $115.00 per hour.
Now the cruel irony, a good marine tech earning $20.00 per hour has the skills and ability to make more elsewhere. Visit with any marine dealer prinicple (owner or GM) and they will tell you how tough it is becoming to recruit good people to be techs and keep them after they have been trained. Boat owners do not want to pay a shop rate commensurate that would retain good techs in the marine industry.

Yes there is a chance the ECM went out after the work was done. Bottom line... The chances of this happening are like slim to none! Regarding the techs rep..?? I hear you! Most do take pride in there work and the shop that it was taken to was a referral. Bottom line, the shop supposedly river tested it and the problem was fixed. So now when the customer puts his boat in after spending four digit figures on repairs and the boat is doing exactly what it was doing before, we're to pass it off on the something else (ECM)? I don't buy it!

Perhaps it was the ECM originally and the carbs never needed to be rebuilt? Then we get into a touchy situation regarding the shop integrity. That being, the boat was never river tested and the shop (tech) thought they could get away without a river test and assumed the problem would be fixed with what repairs were done..??

I guess I'm playing the devils advocate here..?? Someone has to. No disrespect to you fishingls.

[Beginners luck]

Thanks Mike......Those are essentially my thoughts.
I dont have any hard feeling for the tech. He appears to be concerned about the issue and willing to get to the bottom of things. The service manager is the one that gets me fired up. He talks down to me as if I dont know anything about the mechanical side. Again, the mechanic wants to get it fixed but I dont think that even as realistic one may think the shop rates are....(No disrespect intended) that I am willing to drop it off again. After removing the kicker, electronics, and all that stuff because of the storage lots location. Then wait another 2 weeks to hear that it will cost another unknown sum of greenbacks. I will be dealing with them more next week and hopefully something will work out. I will keep up on this.
Thanks everyone for your thoughts!

[Beginners luck]

Ask them to go with you on the river trial.

Is it possible it's something that only affects it at altitude?

Remember that you asked for the other $700 worth of service so your complaint is only over the $500 for the carb rebuild. Since they did not fix the problem, you might ask that they provide the next service labor free.

Another follow up...
I got the boat back to the shop this morning. I was able to hang out in the lot while the tech was doing some testing. Im pretty mechanically inclined so I knew most everything that he was doing. When he thought he found the issue. We backed it down to the river for a run. Same thing. No more than 3000rpm and running rough. Back up to the lot and after some more work. He tells me the crankshaft is twisted....YIKES!!!!
I know Suzuki in that era used 2 piece cranks. He showed me in detail how it was discovered and I understood and confirmed it.
If it had been properly diagnosed the first time. None of the work would have been done in the first place....The service manager offered up $515.00 of the labor towards a new outboard. And only if I bought there was the apparent deal.
I went shopping and ended up with a great deal on a 2007 150hp Honda. Somewhere else I might add. I had hoped to live my entire life without taking somebody to court. I guess thats one dream I will have to forget. Thanks to all of you who offered up thoughts...:applause::applause::applause: