Anybody get dinged on illegal Coho?

[Johnny Mac]

That was wierd. At T-bay, all coho fishing is closed outside the jaws (which I hope somebody can explain, because that maks no sense to me).

Now my buddy says he checked the ODFW website for current regs on Thursday nite in prep for our trip today (saturday) and says that coho were good all around....we get back to the ramp and see folks (good folks too mind you) getting 299 dollar (per fish) fines for illegal catches outside the jaws?!?! Luckily, we didnt catch squat out there because we were under the impression that all was still fair, but OSP were just TAGGING people left and right. Everybody that got nailed honestly didnt know of the changes that were made. It just made me sick to see that. After we loaded up the boat, we looked behind us to see a little cardboard sign made out of black marker (about the size of a paper plate images/icons/rolleyes.gif ) that stated the new regs on coho. This little hunka crap sign was put up by OSP at 2 in the afternoon......most everybody was on the water by 7:00 AM.

Were we wrong? Should we have checked somewhere else????

I dont get it. If there were some sort of new reg passed that helped the protect or prolong or expand coho "frution" if you will, wouldnt you think that they would honestly WANT to advertise and let people know how they can keep things well?

I have NEVER seen anything look more like entrapment than this scenerio today. This simply could NOT look like anything BUT "REVENUE" at the expense of good people just trying to enjoy the sun and catch a couple of dang fish.

I hope I'm way off base with this and simply missing something, I really do, but there were just too many people walking home with 3-6 hundred dollars in fines (or more) shaking their heads at what WAS a great day, turned reaaaaaalll expensive.

Something is not right with this picture.

Anybody have any info on this that could be helpful to comprehension?

[ 09-29-2001: Message edited by: Johnny ]

[Hookset]

The ocean season for coho closed back in late July from Cape Falcon (north of T-Bay) to Humbug Mt. (south of Port Orford). The increased bag limits for coho and extended season is only inside the jaws and the bay at several estuary's along the coast. Check out the link to the ODFW regulations for T-Bay. It's on-line, you just have to look a little harder.


T-Bay Fall Regs (http://www.dfw.state.or.us/ODFWhtml/Regulations/Salmon_Halibut.pdf) page 11

This information was in the paper, the web page and posted at several sporting goods stores not to mentioned a TV news report I happened to see. Your right about one thing, having the latest regs posted at boat ramps would help also, except most people are in to much of a hurry in the morning to read the regs.

Another press release from the ODFW web site below.

Increased coho fishery (http://www.dfw.state.or.us/public/NewsArc/2001News/September/091401news.htm)

This is not entrapment, the information was made available. I'm sure the procedure on notifying people about in season changes could be improved. Send your comments to ODFW with suggestions for future changes.

Gregg

[ 09-29-2001: Message edited by: hookset ]

[Johnny Mac]

Well, I can see why he was lead to believe it was ok I guess. I looked at those links you posted (thanks by the way) and saw what he was seeing. Thats confusing as hell. It says in the update that coho bag limit is 4 in both upper and lower T-bay through sept. 30. Then you look at the map there and see the triangular control zone that looks like it is included as part of the upper bay as far as regs are concerned since anything under it is titled lower. In other words, it looked like the triangular zone was considered as upper T-bay to him. I can actually see what he is saying.....I think images/icons/grin.gif

I think there needs to be a "fishing regs for dummies" presented here soon. I think I'll also check my own regs from now on prior to a trip.

Thing that still makes me wonder is, the officer mentioned something about a change that took place in the regs the day prior images/icons/confused.gif Not sure why he would even mention anything if it was closed on 7-30.

The rules are everyones responsibility of course, but still, I cant see the justification of 300 bucks on a stupid fish when there is literally multi millions coming in. Punishment kind of out-weighs the crime on this one imo....by a long shot.

Thanks again Gregg for taking the time to post those links. images/icons/smile.gif

[Hookset]

Johnny,

You have the bay locations backwards. The upper bay is further away from the ocean, the lower bay extends out to the imaginary line between the jetties. On the map, a box labeled Lower Bay is open for fin clipped coho from Sept. 1st to the 30th. The box labled Terminal Area is open for coho only during the ocean selective coho season as noted on page 7, that season closed in July. Confusing , yes. You have to read each box and follow the arrows to the specific locations on the map. You might say it's like going to school each year having to understand the regs as they change between years and seasons are updated at mid-season.

Just so you know, the T-Bay area is one of if not the most confusing or should I say intricate pieces of regulations in the state.

You can argue the $300 dollar find, but how would it be if the fine was just a mear slap on the hand. Stiff fines may seem a little unfair, but it does help emphasize the regulations have to be followed or else. Remember fishing is like driving, it's not your right, it's a privilege. Abuse the right and you'll lose.

As a side note, with all the changes this year, this more then likely added to the confusion. I have never seen a year like this one. So many different regulations and season closures, hard to keep track of it all. The Columbia was equally confusing if not more so.

Gregg

[Pilar]

Johnny, that's my favorite ramp. Just don't fish on Saturday. There was no one there for adult supervision on Sunday.

The salmon rules and emergency closures are hard to understand by the casual fisher. Any more if the fishing is really good I start to get nervous. Especially if I'm the only one fishing that area! images/icons/shocked.gif images/icons/shocked.gif

It really pays to get the latest from ODFW and the Thursday Snore-a-gonian sports page. Another source is the charter companies. We had some confusion about the bag limit on Kings at the Rockpile on the last Halibut days. I called Tradewinds charters on the cell phone from 17 miles offshore (it worked!!) and got the word, 2 fish each a day.

I wonder if it is wise to run to the South Jetty after bagging a silver in the bay. They would probably say you got it outside and get another fat fine out of yet another rich boater.

images/icons/mad.gif

[Tilla]

The guy in front of me at the ramp had his fish carried up the ramp to the checkers truck and called in the OSP?. I didn't see the fish up close. The second part of potential violation could be the adipose on Coho and/or misidentification... I wonder about the catching of Coho inside and going out. We have caught fin clipped Coho inside the last two weekends and wondered if going outside was OK. I suspect there could be a policy like the B10/ocean deal this year with Chinook closed inside the bay and no fishing allowed if you had an ocean caught fish. I knew about the regulations cause I follow this website!

[Hookset]

Tilla, good point about catching a coho inside then going out for chinook. A definet no no. According to the ODFW and OSP this year, posessing a fish in a closed area is a violation. If your going, excuse me, were going to fish for coho, do not travel outside with a legal caught fish inside.

You can expecxt this type of rule to apply from now on in future seasons.

Gregg

[Pilar]

Thanks for clarifying that Gregg. I would have done it 2 weeks ago when I caught that coho in the CG hole. As it turned out it had too many fins and was let go. We then went for the S. Jetty. Oops, busted!

The fishing regs should have a disclaimer,

images/icons/shocked.gif "Lawyer not included". images/icons/shocked.gif

[TideRunner]

No matter how many years or times I've fished a certain area, I always check with the pros (bait shop, marinas, charters). The rule book is barely relevant to fisheries such as Tillamook Bay. Rules change every year, month, week, day.......I never really trust what I read. Charters are a great source of reliability, as Pilar stated. You know those guys are on the ball. Many times I've read the rule book, the website, and the papers/mags, and then shown up to a boat ramp somewhere and see a brand new yellow sign posted stating "special regs" or "emergency regs". Sometimes there isn't a sign, such as Garibaldi. I always ask......Always, always, always........

[Grant Betts]

I think it's good that they made coho catch & release ouside of the jaws in T-bay.

[Joe Schwab]

It never ceases to amaze me that educated people who know so much about technical issues can't seem to read a simple rule book. Go to the body of water you are going to fish. If it says you can keep 2 fish do not assume you can keep 4. If it says coho is closed, assume it is closed. Do not take the word of some guy at the sporting goods store. He will not be responsible for paying your fine. If there are supplemental regulations, read them and note again what applies to the body of water you are going to fish. Another point, Bail schedules are not fines..... They are bail schedules set by the court and are uniform throughout the state. The citing officer has no control over the bail schedule. The fine is determined at the time of trial or disposition of the case. Yes, oftentimes the angling public needs adult supervision. Or we could just let each angler make up his own rules as he sees fit. That would work!! Yesterday while cleaning my wife's 15 pound chinook, another angler commented, "my buddy got a ticket for a fish just like that one. The cop said it was a coho." I asked, "did it have a black mouth, large spots, like this one?" "Duh, I don't know, but it looked like that" All you can do is shake your head and walk off. images/icons/rolleyes.gif images/icons/rolleyes.gif images/icons/rolleyes.gif

[FM2]

Good Post Capt Hook! images/icons/smile.gif

[Johnny Mac]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Capt. Hook:
It never ceases to amaze me that educated people who know so much about technical issues can't seem to read a simple rule book. Go to the body of water you are going to fish. If it says you can keep 2 fish do not assume you can keep 4. If it says coho is closed, assume it is closed. Do not take the word of some guy at the sporting goods store. He will not be responsible for paying your fine. If there are supplemental regulations, read them and note again what applies to the body of water you are going to fish. Another point, Bail schedules are not fines..... They are bail schedules set by the court and are uniform throughout the state. The citing officer has no control over the bail schedule. The fine is determined at the time of trial or disposition of the case. Yes, oftentimes the angling public needs adult supervision. Or we could just let each angler make up his own rules as he sees fit. That would work!! Yesterday while cleaning my wife's 15 pound chinook, another angler commented, "my buddy got a ticket for a fish just like that one. The cop said it was a coho." I asked, "did it have a black mouth, large spots, like this one?" "Duh, I don't know, but it looked like that" All you can do is shake your head and walk off. images/icons/rolleyes.gif images/icons/rolleyes.gif images/icons/rolleyes.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That in itself had some good points there hook. Gotta remember though that not everybody has been fishing for a hundred and forty years like you probably have. If you could take a few steps back and pretend to be a rookie for a while, you wouldnt believe how ridiculously complicated going out and catching a fish is. There is a ton of info to know "or else". You have had years and years of fishing and absorbtion of the rules, making it pretty easy for you to flip through the rule book and just note the changes from year to year. Thats a lot different than opening it up for the first time, trying to get through species, terminology, bait restrictions, restrictions on water your not familiar with, etc. and so on. And makes it pretty easy for you to preach about how easy and simple it is also.

Sorry, I just dont see that book as being simple....yet. I'm learning, thankfully not the hard way. And with a lot of help from people on this site. Luckily, not with 3-5 hundred dollar fines like some. But I cant help but to see how furious somebody would be about a steep fine, and empathasize with them. The beauracracy, litigation, and regulation of fishing is unbelievably complex for a recreational activety. And they are always changing too! That makes it even worse.

Turns out I was flat out wrong about T-bay last weekend, and my buddy had mis-understood the regs. Luckily, we got skunked (never thought I'd say that). But I cant say that I dont understand how my "educated pal who knows so much about technical issues" messed it up. It would have been a hard knock. Glad it didnt have to be.

Anyways, your right about the guy at the sporting goods store. Good idea to check the regs for an area yourself prior to going out. I know I will from now on.

[4Salt]

Here's my opinion on the matter: (which, when you add $.98, you still can't get a latte at Starbucks.)

Ignorance IS NO EXCUSE! If you are a rookie fisher, and you're thinking about fishing an area with complicated regs, call ODFW or WDFW, whoever. Get the STRAIGHT FACTS! Either that, or fish an area where the regs are more easily understandable. Fishing is a privilege, not a right. It is OUR responsibility to know the law. images/icons/wink.gif

[Joe Schwab]

Sorry if I get a little sarcastic now and then but I get really pi$$ed when people who know better start getting on the enforcement guys who are doing a totally thankless job. I have dealt with people over the years who, as soon as the new rules come out, go through the book looking for ways to beat the system out of a few more fish or hunt closer to the boundary or rig their hooks so they can "accidentally snag more fish" and then beg off that they did not understand the complicated regs. Believe it or not, game officers oppose complicated regulations.
It does often look like a flock shoot when regulations change and large numbers of people get cited. Just remember only a fraction of violators ever get tagged. Once the word gets out compliance goes up and citations go down. From what I saw outside
Saturday there were still a number of coho getting bonked and put in the box.

[Floater]

In the past, I always had someone who took me fishing and they knew the regs on a daily basis. Now, I'm learning on my own and it's not easy. I too check the main book, the web site and any other piece of information I can get my hands on the night before I go out.
Should anyone have to do just that? No, I don't think so. There needs to be a better way. I understand that the Federal and State fisheries is a very dynamic system, but there has to be a better way of updating/changing regs. Something like a three day media/flyer campaign before the change goes into effect. The radio and TV stations are supposed to act as a public information service, right? To keep their FCC license they have to show they've help to keep the community they serve, informed....right? Maybe I'm wrong.

I'm not a lawyer but my wife does say that I'm very #*&$ retentive about things.
After going through the main reg book and the updates, I found a couple of mis-statements and it got me to thinking about
a paragraph I once read; To be a law, every meaning of the law must be explained. There shall be no reference as to "the intent" of the law. All intents must be quantitativly stated. Every word used to explain said law, must in itself be explained to the normally acceptable definitions in reconizable terms. No validity or enforcement oppurtunities will be given to hidden meanings or references."

Do I think game wardens are on the front lines with possibly no power to change the things that people complain to them about, yes....
Do I think there should be some leeway, yes..
If a reg changed yesterday and I don't see it, ignorance IS an excuse. If you're going to enforce it, you have to tell me about the change first or give me resonable time to discover the change on my own. Take the fish away and give it to a local family that you know could use it more then me. Most local cops know their community well enough and I would have no qualms about losing a fish in that way. But a couple of hundred dollar fine is not warranted!

My .02 images/icons/smile.gif

Oh yea, about the guys that look for ways to "get" more fish or the guys that are blatantly being evil....NAIL EM. images/icons/mad.gif

[ 10-08-2001: Message edited by: Floater ]