Deschutes Smallmouth

[Tar Heel]

I fish for smallies, steelhead and trout, and I dont want to start another huge "introduced species" debate. HOWEVER, I have read about people catching smallies in the D. Shouldn't we kill smallies in the D? Does ODFW consider it waste if you do and dont keep them for food? As much as I love smallies on the Columbia River, John Day, Willamette..., seems to me it's a no brainer we should do what we can to minimize them on the D. I am sure it's a loosing battle, but we do what we can, right?

[Siwash]

I got one my last trip there. Might've kept it if it was bigger and we were on our way back to camp later in the day, but it was only ~10" and we were still working our way up so I put it back. Definitely don't think they should be there, but couldn't quite bring myself to just toss it in the bushes.

[Steelie Mike]

I have caught them too, but do not think they have a serious enough impact on the fishery on the Lower D. If there was then we would see more of them caught by steelheaders. I personally see more northern pikeminnows and would gladly take smb instead.

[Two Fister]

I'd say kill them all. There are more and more of them every year. They are caught higher in the river every year. Someone on ifish (maybe Wapatiteaser?) said they had been caught as high as Shears Falls. Why kill a native fish eater like a Pike Minnow and let a non-native fish eater like a small mouth bass go?

The slack water behind the island at Moody is full of them. I ran into a noted fishing photographer/former guide last year and he was fishing for them behind the island at Moody. He said it was pretty much every cast. He doesn't like to fish for steelhead when the light is on the water so he hammers on the small mouth instead.

I'll kill every SMB or LMB that I catch in the Deschutes. The less of them the more trout, steelhead and salmon smolt/fry. I'd also kill a brown or brook trout if I ever caught one. That being said I'll also let every Pike Minnow go. They are native and belong there even if I don't like their choice of diet.

TF

[mgdfly]

There have been smallies in the D. for many years, and their numbers haven't increased to speak of, outside of natural population fluctuations. They seem confined to the lower river, where few trout ever resided. There aren't enough of them to impact trout populations significantly. Those that escs[ped from Pelton upstrem don't seem to suvive well, probably too cold and fast. Don't see any huge impact on the Trout/Steelhead Fishery on the D. My opinon, yes, but it's based on many years of not only fishing/guiding the D., but also many years of electro-shocking during population surveys on that very river. And, and unlike fishing, you always see what's there when you shock!

[Tar Heel]

There have been smallies in the D. for many years, and their numbers haven't increased to speak of, outside of natural population fluctuations. They seem confined to the lower river, where few trout ever resided. There aren't enough of them to impact trout populations significantly. Those that escs[ped from Pelton upstrem don't seem to suvive well, probably too cold and fast. Don't see any huge impact on the Trout/Steelhead Fishery on the D. My opinon, yes, but it's based on many years of not only fishing/guiding the D., but also many years of electro-shocking during population surveys on that very river. And, and unlike fishing, you always see what's there when you shock!

That's very intresting. Thanks. I fished the D a lot 10-15 yrs ago, and never heard of SM in the R back then. But hadn't heard of ifish in those days either! Maybe I'll live long enough to see if this ever becomes an issue! For now, w a busted knee, casting for smallies from a boat on the "C" fits the bill.

[Two Fister]

They seem confined to the lower river, where few trout ever resided. There aren't enough of them to impact trout populations significantly.

I'd have to respectfully disagree about there not being significant a trout population in the lower river. Some of the best trout fishing I've had on the river (been fishing it since 1982) has been in the lower river. Maybe not the overall numbers of smaller trout, but the fish are significantly larger.

Small mouth bass are native to Labrador, the Canadian Shield and the northernmost portions of the Eastern US. They are a cold water species that can adapt to warmer temperatures. Cold swift water is their habitat.

The reports of SMB that I've been hearing do not appear to be washing downstream from LBC, but migrating upstream from the Columbia. The population in the lower 15 miles of the river appears to be in the increase. The population in the lower 5 miles appears to be increasing significantly. Granted that's based on purely anecdotal information, but I'm hearing a lot more reports of SMB in the river than I have heard in the past.

Most of the electroshocking that I know of on the Deschutes has been conducted in affiliation with the Warm Springs tribes on the upper river (above Shears). I believe that Shears would present a barrier to the upstream migration of SMB which aren't known for their waterfall vaulting ability. Then again, there is a fish ladder...

I never did get to run one of the shocking driftboats, but I have logged many miles on 5 Mile Creek, 8 Mile Creek, 15 Mile Creek and many other small tribs with a backpack shocker. Probably scary numbers of fish turning over on some portions of the river.
TF

[SilverFly]

Here's my procedure for dealing with bass in trout/steelhead watersheds:

Step 1: Hot oil.
Step 2: Cold beer.
Step 3: Repeat as necessary.

[gottafish]

Here's my procedure for dealing with bass in trout/steelhead watersheds:

Step 1: Hot oil.
Step 2: Cold beer.
Step 3: Repeat as necessary.
:food::food::food::food::food::food::food: Survey Says. Ding!!DING!!!

[Slow and Low]

I catch them every year. Highest I have caught them is above Ferry Canyon. I kill them all and like two fister I release the pike minnowsas they are supposed to be there.

[CHOSENBOY]

The number of smallmouth have increased greatly in the last few years. There also is a very healthy population of resident trout on the lower river as well, especially since taking the cattle off. I base this upon having a father whom guided on the river for 25 plus years and growing up on the river. I say kill every smallmouth and leave the pikeminnows alone. Last trip up my buddy hooked 9 redeyes in a day, with lots of other chasers.

[MarlinMark]

I would grill them all. Why not?

Mark

[wapiteaser]

If you ever looked in the bellies of a pike minnow, you would trash everyone of them. Nothing but silver scales from little fish. Smallmouth feed mainly on sculpins, crawfish and eels. The time of the year when the fish are migrating out is usually spring time and the water is too cold for smallmouth to be very active. A pike minnow will eat 100 times more fish than a smallmouth.

[Two Fister]

If you ever looked in the bellies of a pike minnow, you would trash everyone of them. Nothing but silver scales from little fish. Smallmouth feed mainly on sculpins, crawfish and eels. The time of the year when the fish are migrating out is usually spring time and the water is too cold for smallmouth to be very active. A pike minnow will eat 100 times more fish than a smallmouth.


wapiteaser,
I've heard that before, but it just doesn't make sense to me. Smallmouths are native to very cold swift water rivers in Labrador, the Canadian Shield, and the most northern portions of the eastern US. The are not a warm water species like a largemouth, although they do adapt to warmer water better than salmonids. The go to lure on the John Day for big smallies in the spring is a broken back rapala about the size of a smolt. I know that's anacdotal but IMHO (as well as a lot of other folks) smallies are one of the worst predators going.

I know pike minnows are doing damage as well, but the salmon and steelhead evloved with them in the system. I can't bring myself to kill one native fish in favor of another. Smallies in the Deschutes just don't belong.
TF

[Slow and Low]

Two Fister is on the money here. Kill all smallmouth on the deschutes.

Do me a fovor and don't leave them on the bank...that stinks.

[Steelie Mike]

If you ever looked in the bellies of a pike minnow, you would trash everyone of them. Nothing but silver scales from little fish. Smallmouth feed mainly on sculpins, crawfish and eels. The time of the year when the fish are migrating out is usually spring time and the water is too cold for smallmouth to be very active. A pike minnow will eat 100 times more fish than a smallmouth.

Back when I still tried to fished for trout near the mouth of the D, I would find many smolts in the late summer and fall that would take nymphs and dries. One day on a drive back from the Owyhee, I fished for a couple of hours below Moody Rapids and caught dozens of them. They are there and fish from Eastern rivers are still on their migration down the Big C and sometimes stop in the cooler waters. I am sure SM eat a few smolts here and there. However if they were a big problem, the John Day, Grande Ronde, Snake, Clearwater and I am sure a few others would be in trouble as well. But if you want to eat them, gobble them bad boys up. I might have to try it next time.

[Tar Heel]

Not sure how much of a problem PM's are on the D, but on the C, we catch some truely huge ones once in awhile while sm bass fishing. We have drastically modified C. R. habitat w/ the dams:frown:, and what was once mearly part of the natural ecosystem, has probably become a bigger issue, especially with all the other pressures placed on anadramous fish.

[Two Fister]

We have drastically modified C. R. habitat w/ the dams:frown:, and what was once mearly part of the natural ecosystem, has probably become a bigger issue, especially with all the other pressures placed on anadramous fish.

Tar heel,
No doubt about that being a problem. Chances are the Columbia wouldn't be comfortable habitat to a lot of exotic species if it were a free flowing river. It was one big nasty whitewater river about 100 years ago. If you ever have a chance to look at old aerials photos of the CR before the dams it will take your breath away.
TF

[Slow and Low]

Not sure how much of a problem PM's are on the D, but on the C, we catch some truely huge ones once in awhile while sm bass fishing. We have drastically modified C. R. habitat w/ the dams:frown:, and what was once mearly part of the natural ecosystem, has probably become a bigger issue, especially with all the other pressures placed on anadramous fish.


I catch a lot of PM's on the D. Biggest one was around 22 or 23". I had one freight train me last weekend. I was glad for the hook up.

[patp]

hey all this is not in any way trying to be combative but do you really think killing the smallmouths in the deschutes will help? there is a chance of getting the bass out of davis lake because it is a lake. you can poison it, if they choose to or not is the question. but on the deschutes you have a open river nothing to stop the bass from moving out of the columbia and into the deschutes when ever they choose. killing them and throwing on the bank is just being a wastefull clod. keep them eat them by all means but do not just trash them that is one of the very things that flyfisherman are supposed to be above i thought? and this is combative if i see a flyfisherman just throwing bass away i will turn them in and hope beyond hope they get nailed to the wall.
thanks as always pat.

[Two Fister]

Well Pat that's pretty combative for not wanting to be combative.

Invasive, illegally introduced species are not gamefish. It may not solve the problem, but they are not getting any break from me. One less smallmouth is going to either equal a few more smolts or additional forage for resident Redband Trout or downstream smolts. I'd love to see the court case where someone gets issued a ticket for killing an illegally introduced fish when there is a bounty on native pikeminnow.

I don't throw them on the bank, but the crayfish and smolts get a chance at a free meal if I catch a smallmouth bass on the Deschutes. I think it's the least I owe the native fish in the Deschutes.

If that's being a clod, that's just fine with me.
TF

[patp]

oh i will be combative, in person, or on a computer i just did not mean to be in that post. except where i said i wanted to be combative. i truly am not trying irritate anybody but the smallmouth bass is a game fish and it is found in the columbia where it is regulated so i think, and i maybe wrong, that makes it a gamefish. i enjoy almost all of your post mister two fister just not this one but do as you wish i just hope i do not see it. that is all sir.
thanks pat

[Two Fister]

patp,
Please no sirs or misters. It's fine to disagree. To me smallmouth bass have the ability to ruin a lot more fisheries than they already have. To me the John Day is an abomination. Being able to catch a smallmouth on every cast doesn't warrant not taking the steps necessary to rebuild native fish populations.

The John Day was historically an excellent trout fishery that was destroyed by dredging, mining and drastic over allocation of instream water. The ODFWs solution was to introduce smallmouth instead of addressing the root problems. That's amazingly short sighted and it is likely the same stock of fish that are starting to invade the Deschutes. I guess it's hard for the ODFW and WDFW to do anything about illegal introductions when they are responsible for some of the worst introductions of invasive species going.

I don't fish the Columbia for warmwater species. If I find them in the Deschutes, where they are not specifically protected, I'm going to treat them accordingly.

We can certainly discuss it on the river, but it's not going to change my mind. Chances are that I won't change yours either but that's fine. If ODFW wants to write me a ticket for killing an invasive species that is not specifically protected on the Deschutes I'll be happy to see them in court.
TF

[arcman46]

Wapiteaser is right. If it is a choice between Pikeminnow and Bass, I'm going to eat the bass, and trash the pikeminnow. There have been bass in the lower D for several years. They move up, and then they move down, out of the Columbia. Talking to several of the guides, they don't seem to think they are a problem (the bass) or their clients would be catching more of them. For the amount of people fishing the lower river, there are very few of them being caught.

[Slow and Low]

hey all this is not in any way trying to be combative but do you really think killing the smallmouths in the deschutes will help? there is a chance of getting the bass out of davis lake because it is a lake. you can poison it, if they choose to or not is the question. but on the deschutes you have a open river nothing to stop the bass from moving out of the columbia and into the deschutes when ever they choose. killing them and throwing on the bank is just being a wastefull clod. keep them eat them by all means but do not just trash them that is one of the very things that flyfisherman are supposed to be above i thought? and this is combative if i see a flyfisherman just throwing bass away i will turn them in and hope beyond hope they get nailed to the wall.
thanks as always pat.

Nice to meet you? I don't care if it helps or not. I will kill every one I catch and have for the last couple years. Clod? You gotta be kidding. As for what flyfisherman are above or not? Each to their own. Have a nice day.

[Tar Heel]

patp,
Please no sirs or misters. It's fine to disagree. To me smallmouth bass have the ability to ruin a lot more fisheries than they already have. To me the John Day is an abomination. Being able to catch a smallmouth on every cast doesn't warrant not taking the steps necessary to rebuild native fish populations.

The John Day was historically an excellent trout fishery that was destroyed by dredging, mining and drastic over allocation of instream water. The ODFWs solution was to introduce smallmouth instead of addressing the root problems. That's amazingly short sighted and it is likely the same stock of fish that are starting to invade the Deschutes. I guess it's hard for the ODFW and WDFW to do anything about illegal introductions when they are responsible for some of the worst introductions of invasive species going.

.

I don't fish the Columbia for warmwater species. If I find them in the Deschutes, where they are not specifically protected, I'm going to treat them accordingly.

We can certainly discuss it on the river, but it's not going to change my mind. Chances are that I won't change yours either but that's fine. If ODFW wants to write me a ticket for killing an invasive species that is not specifically protected on the Deschutes I'll be happy to see them in court.
TF
Man, I would be all for restoring the John Day to a trout fishery. But how realistic is that? It would take fencing cattle from the River, strict regulation of water rights, and agressive revegitation of the stream banks. I am all for it.
In the meanime, we are left with one of the best smallmouth rivers in the US--if not the best--and I would prefer that it not be limited to trophy Pike Minnows and White Fish, and a short season steelhead fishery in dire need of help.

[Two Fister]

a short season steelhead fishery in dire need of help.

I hear you Tar heel. I don't think it's happening any time soon, but there would have been a better chance of restoring it if the SMB hadn't been introduced. Then again there's been a lot of positive change on the John Day system. Lots of diversions have been screened, illegal water withdrawls have been cut way back, the upper watershed have been protected more aggressively and the riparian areas are getting much more protection than they have historically. The river supports one of the healthier wild runs of steelhead and spring chinook in the Columbia River basin. I think a lot of that has to do with it being the largest undammed watershed in the lower 48 (from what I've been told). The fish still have access to all of those small streams in the upper watersheds that most other fish have been blocked from for decades. They also get good gravel recruitment from spring flooding which is a major problem on rivers like the Deschutes. I'll bet 80%-90% of the small spawning streams and gravel recruitment sources are above the dams in Madras. The Crooked apparently used to have amazing steelhead fishing. It'll be interesting to see what happens when the tribes start putting fish above the dams again.

The spring flows on the John Day aren't trapped by a dam and a slackwater pool so the fish get a pretty good push downstream. Just imagine how good it would be if they didn't have to run a gauntlet of 14,000 smallmouth bass per mile. Even if you buy that they don't prey heavily on the downstream smolts (which I definitely do not), there can't be that much food for them with so much competition. IMHO, if there wasn't a good, unimpeded push of water for them in the spring you'd find a lot more of them starved to death or as smallie snacks.

TF

[raptorschild]

Have any of you caught a steelhead on the GRANDE RONDE RIVER? Those smolts go from the GR, to the Snake, to the Columbia and BACK!!!! Do you think if smallies were all about smolt, would you get one native back to the Grande Ronde.....no way.

The initial 24 miles of that river from the mouth to boggans in INFESTED with smallies. EVERY CAST. Let alone the snake and BIG C.

I've caught plenty of steelhead in that river. I can promise that if the bass' main diet is smolt. Not a steelhead would return. No way no how.

As for Pikeminnow. THEY ARE NOT NATIVE IN TERMS OF POPULATION DUE TO HUMAN IMPACT. Just because the species is native, that doesnt mean that human impact hasnt created an unnatural situation.

Bottom line is that dams have increased Northern pike minnnow populations that do lead to increased populations in the Deshutes.


Do yourselves a favor.....eat some good size smallies, and bank the sqauw fish. They are far from native at this point, and that argument is just some sort of silly justification to kill smallies at will and yet feel good about yourself for supporting the "natural native species".

And as for...the "I'll see em in court" attitude. by all means!!! please donate to the ODFW. They won't give you any slack. I'd pay good money to be a fly on the wall listening to you debate armchair biology to a man or woman of the Law that probably doesnt fish or hunt.

[Two Fister]

raptorschild,
I'm making a point of not coming on the bass board and flaming you there. How about you show the same kind of respect.

You can call 15 years of experience with fisheries assessment, stream survey, species ID, stream restoration, etc armchair biology if you like.

Other than that, I'd say go back to your root beer colored grubs and catch all of the smallies you can.

Have a great weekend.
TF

[raptorschild]

raptorschild,
I'm making a point of not coming on the bass board and flaming you there. How about you show the same kind of respect.

You can call 15 years of experience with fisheries assessment, stream survey, species ID, stream restoration, etc armchair biology if you like.

Other than that, I'd say go back to your root beer colored grubs and catch all of the smallies you can.

Have a great weekend.
TF


I didnt flame anyone. I would be flaming if i came over hear saying kill all trout!!!!

As for respect....you don't earn respect by saying that you are going to disregard the law, do whatever you want and act like an internet tough guy by saying..."i'll see em in court." Again...i'd love to see your explanation stand up when judge's have hear it all, and all they see is the law.....BLACK AND WHITE BABY!

All i'm saying is.....saving pikeminnow is fine if you have good rationale, but if your trying to vindicate killing SMB's and saving Pikeminnow using the old "Introduced Vs. Native argument", then you are way behind the curve as far as Biological facts are concerned.

When humans alter populations of "Native" species to unhealthy levels, measures must be taken to fix the problem. Just becuase pikeminnow are natural doesnt mean that their current populations are. They are influenced by man, which makes them unnatural.

Like i said, eat some smallies....I know i do..... But don't just throw em on the bank. And if your going to save Pike minnows, then at least revisit your reasoning and come up with something that makes sense.

No flaming going on here....Just the facts. Now go on roll casting your royal coachman, as i'll be throwing some bead head nymphs as well as a Hedon Torpedo this weekend....No grubs....the topwater bite has been too hot.........FF.



And again, i do know that smallies feed on some smolts, but if that was a big source of their diet....again rivers like the JD, the Salmon river, the Grande Ronde, the Snake, and the deshutes would never see a Wild Fish return. There is no way a fingerling trout could run from The Grande Ronde to the Ocean without being pummeled 50 times over by smallmouth if that was a major diet source. Take your flyrod to the Grande Ronde, and see for urself. You'll find the smallies will puke up 99% crawfish. But be carefull out there. You may just like it.

[MXRacer105]

I didnt flame anyone. I would be flaming if i came over hear saying kill all trout!!!!

As for respect....you don't earn respect by saying that you are going to disregard the law, do whatever you want and act like an internet tough guy by saying..."i'll see em in court." Again...i'd love to see your explanation stand up when judge's have hear it all, and all they see is the law.....BLACK AND WHITE BABY!

All i'm saying is.....saving pikeminnow is fine if you have good rationale, but if your trying to vindicate killing SMB's and saving Pikeminnow using the old "Introduced Vs. Native argument", then you are way behind the curve as far as Biological facts are concerned.

When humans alter populations of "Native" species to unhealthy levels, measures must be taken to fix the problem. Just becuase pikeminnow are natural doesnt mean that their current populations are. They are influenced by man, which makes them unnatural.

Like i said, eat some smallies....I know i do..... But don't just throw em on the bank. And if your going to save Pike minnows, then at least revisit your reasoning and come up with something that makes sense.

No flaming going on here....Just the facts. Now go on roll casting your royal coachman, as i'll be throwing some bead head nymphs as well as a Hedon Torpedo this weekend....No grubs....the topwater bite has been too hot.........FF.



And again, i do know that smallies feed on some smolts, but if that was a big source of their diet....again rivers like the JD, the Salmon river, the Grande Ronde, the Snake, and the deshutes would never see a Wild Fish return. There is no way a fingerling trout could run from The Grande Ronde to the Ocean without being pummeled 50 times over by smallmouth if that was a major diet source. Take your flyrod to the Grande Ronde, and see for urself. You'll find the smallies will puke up 99% crawfish. But be carefull out there. You may just like it.

:agree: Very good post.... Well put

[Two Fister]

Raptorschild,
Apparently child is the key word in your moniker. You get respect when you deserve it. You deserve none.

Killing smallmouths on the Deschutes may be distasteful to you, but they are an invasive species in that river and do not harbor any specific protection. I'm not advocating breaking the law, I'm advocating protecting the river from an invasive species. Northern Pike Minnows are a native species that may be infesting the warm water sections of the Columbia River and river that you like to fish for smallmouth bass, but they are not by any means taking over the Deschutes. They are there, they are native and that's good enough for me. Smallmouth bass are not native, they are expanding their range, they do not have any specific protection on the Deschutes (where TES fish stocks exist) and they should get killed every time they are caught there. Just like a Davis Lake.

I'm not being an internet tough guy, I'm simply stating the facts. You obviously like to fish for them and that's your right. However, it is not right to come on to the fly board spewing that crud for the sake of reading your own writing. Keep it on the bass board where it's apparently OK to trash each other.

TF

[Pete]

Since this is really not fly fishing related and "we" seem to be having a hard time being mutually respectful, I'm putting this one to bed. It looks like everyone has gotten their say, so let's put this one to rest and be a little nicer to each other in the future.