RACISM -- Time to Talk with the Indians -- and Ourselves

[Deleted User]

First read the "Yakima Indians Bill BPA $32,000 for Raindance Ceremonies" thread. Last evening on the P.P. BB a like thread caused an uproar that turned a bit racist and ugly argumentative. Mike H, who first put up the thread felt compelled to delete it after it went bad and re-start it. I felt compelled to finally address racism - what it is and isn't, and what to do about it. I really believe it's time to get after understanding and healing before the 'cold war' over fish between the Indians and white sportfishers goes beyond respite. Please help us here with your thoughts toward a better understanding, and ultimately solution proposals after this important subject reaches a proper degree of resolve first. Thanks much - Steve (RT) .....
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It's time now, and this can be a very good thing to undertake!
In today's (Monday) thread entitled "BPA refuses to pay for Indian rain dance ceremony", both racially insensative comments were made and the 'race card' was pulled. Many of the foibles of human communication were clearly on display; as in many past threads here. Anger, insensativeity, misunderstanding, escalating argumentative anger, further misunderstanding, unfortunate but understandable thoughts of turning away instead of working this out, and onward to namecalling. And that was just what was in Hey_Yall's post. You should have read the rest of it! OK, obviously kidding, and in a thread that is not funny at all - but I just want to loosen this up right from the start so we can have a more productive discussion with minimal anger present. Let's learn some things together and hopefully have a healing post that we could all use! Not just about racism, but angry miscommunication in general with all people. ...

Since this is mostly about racism between some people with Native American ancestory and some people with Euro ancestory, I have e-mail invited respected Native American BB member Letty Potter to join in a peaceful disussion in search of understanding what is true racism to people (from both side's perspective), what is only insensativity, and what we can all do to improve relations herein. These principles likely will apply to all races of people. ...

These are some subjects to help us get underway; add any you feel will be helpful. ...

- What is the difference between true racism and benign racial insensativity? (There are going to be a lot of difference of opinions here - so explaining why you take a position about the above important question will help understanding).

- What sterotypical, or specific, communication manner bothers you as a Euro or Indian, from the other race of people?

- What do you suggest for an alternative way to address people of a different race?

Let's make some progress on these questions before we get into more deep seated specifics about such as our ancestor's wrongs and current Treaty rights and wrongs, and general rights and wrongs. Please alert some more Native Americans to join in on this thread to help us all to at least come to a better understanding of each other - and strive and hope for more than that. We are all fishers here, and we can help the fish along the way in later disussions after we address the above basics first. Thanks. ...

I will try to get the ball rolling toward coming to an understanding of these questions. Please get involved and help me out here. Before I give my take on these issues, I am going to state that I think at the very bottom of racial hate lies the thought that the other race does not respect or like me and my brother and sister; and aren't fair to me. So you 'think' you hate them for that. But I believe in reality that it's not real hate; but rather just an exageration of negative feelings because your inner pride is being hurt. If people would just understand there is no real basis in the modern world to hate - there is only a basis to hate the way some stupid people behave - then healing and relations can occur. ...

The questions:

- What is the difference between true racism and benign insensativity?

~ I think this is the central issue in most all racism in this country. There is true racism by each race to other races of people - it's not just racism when a majority race does it to a minority race, it's also the other way around. I do have the opinion that racism was mostly started by Euro settlers in this country; mostly wrongs against Native Americans and Africans and African Americans. There were very wrong atrocities committed by some Euros against these people in the 1800's. There were also wrongful atrocities committed by Native Americans against Native Americans and Africans against Africans. If you better understand why this likely occured it may reduce your hatred of what happened to your ancestors. The truth of the matter is that all the world's people and races back then were even more intrinsically preservationsist by nature than we all are today; by necessity. That made it more than natural, it made it necessary to form tribes of like peoples for their very survival. Right or wrong, that was the basic law of the land and world mindset as we entered the 19th century. And as I said, it wasn't just tribes of races, it was also tribes within races. But perhaps the biggest historical mistake as I see it was when Euro settlers developed a mindset of superiority over the other races due to numbers of people and better weaponry. This has unfortunately prevailed to this day among some white anglo Americans - and it is not correct, it is "true racism". To think that you are a superior white person that deserves more privilage than minorities is "true racism". It's ugly. So is the same upper class white society mindset of superiority and oppression of the lower white and minority classes in this country. Ugly! And it still exists intensely in a few stupid white Euro people who are racially derogatory and separatist; which unfortunately plays right into the bottom line of "they don't respect or like us" so I feel hatred - unfortunate because that thinking is often placed on the whole white race because of a few bad apples. Fortunately, it's a minority of whites that truely feel this way - not the majority as I sense many minority races of people think. This syndrome also exists in some minority people; among Blacks and Indians (BTW, I was told by a Native American that it is acceptable to them to be refered to as Indian - correct? - it is easier to type) and other races. They have strong attributes that make them feel superior - that is true racism if used derogatorily and separatist against other races, rather than just kept as pride within. An example of a minority's true racism; "get out of our gym honkey, you can't jump" - that has been said by some Blacks to a lot of very good white basketabll players (I have personally wittnessed this many times). Another form of true racism is making an innocent individual of another race an outcast or uncomfortable near your space just because you disdain that person's race. It still happens by white Americans often in this country - but it is the stupid minority of whites that do that, not most of the race. And it is true racism for Blacks and Indians to disdain all the more common non-racist whites because of those stupid whites. Just as it is for some whites to disdain all Blacks because their is a little higher crime rate statistic for that race. It also happens to some whites by some individual Indians on their sovereign land or even in common fishing areas - as reported on this and other fishing BB's many times. But that is not a reason to disdain the Indian race! It happens to white individuals by some Blacks if the white person goes thru their "territory". But don't disdain all Blacks because of that! Those things are ugly wrongful true racism by some individuals of all races. And as I stated above it is mostly born of the mindset that the other race doesn't respect or like me, and thus isn't fair to me. If that simple notion could be irradicated magically then racism would be reduced to a tiny fraction of what it is overnight! But it is going to take a lot of communication and understanding to irradicate this over time. ...

So what is benign racial insensativity? To me it is when we do or say things that are exagerated by the other race as being racist when the true racism described above is not present. That obviously needs to be corrected on here and everywhere. Try not to be insensative for sure. But perhaps more important for all races of people is not to make too much of a big deal about benign insensativity! Like one guy said in that controversial thread "be a little more thick skinned", or as I say "understand that the disrespect you feel is very often not as strong as was intended, or even meant at all"! All races cut down on racial defensive mindset and we have gained a whole lot! Lighten up when it's appropriate - and it often is. ...

I also have the opinion that many minority race individuals use what is often refered to as the "race card". This is where the defensive racial mindset is used improperly - such as when improper blame is placed on present day white ancestors of wrong doers the century before last. In fact, many white's ancestors were not involved at all in the wrongs comitted against Indians or Blacks way back in another lifetime! Mine weren't - so I dislike and disrespect a minority that holds some degree of inner disdain for me because I'm the same color as those wrong doers I'm not even related too. That is a very big issue that many Blacks and Indians must understand! And must get over! Be very sure of true racism before you use the race card! It is both unfair and angers the other race. ...

To help heal these ills mentioned above it will be helpful to discuss the other 2 questions. Due to the length of this post, I will give my take on those questions in the following posts. Please join me.

Steve (RT)

[Deleted User]

Here are the other 2 questions to address:

- What sterotypical, or specific, communication manner bothers you as a Euro or Indian, from the other race of people?

- What do you suggest for an alternative way to address people of a different race?

I will try my take tomorrow. We need lots of people's opinions on this subject, hopefully including some Native Americans that will register and join in the discussion.

[Jennie@ifish]

Oh great... images/icons/rolleyes.gif
No outside sunshine for the moderators today, they are going to have a job on their hands.
Sadly, I don't see a group hug with the Indians and the fishermen anytime soon.
I am ready on my delete button, mods?
Not to discount any possibility of miraculous peace coming of this, and the sincerity of the tone of RT,s approach, but... is their hope? I'm scared of this thread... I wanted to go plant my garden!
I'm not ready to give up the possibility, and I don't have a problem with this issue, but I feel like this is opening a can of deletable, and therefore 'censorship!' crying worms.
Bear with the mods, here, people.... This will be a tough thread, with many joint decisions on what should be done.
I may be wrong? I hope so!
I do think that Oregonians have less of a problem with Indian treaty than do Washingtonians. Our local streams are not as affected.
Jen

[Mike H]

I would just like it to be known that there is a different "Mike H" on the PP Board. I do not post over there. Maybe I should change my name to "THE REEL MIKE H". Hmmmmm.

Mike H

[s reynolds]

Let me see if I understand this correctly. This same type of thread resulted in an uproar and eventual delete from the author on the other ("r-rated") board so you bring it over here? What are friends for? Good idea? images/icons/rolleyes.gif

[bait boy]

99% of the time I think that what the mods curtail is ok, but to worry about a real world issue and to really see how poeple feel about an issue that faces us all at some point in time is ludicrous and not needed. Jennie shame on you for even thinking about the delete key on this. People deal with this everyday in their own way and there are issues that need to be discussed. (well maybe not on this BB)

We deal with issues that are "racial" everyday. Most people are influenced by their surroundings one way or the other on issues of racial bias. (like how you raise your kids)

Alot of the feelings that fisherpeople are dealing with relate specifically to tribal rights to do something somewhere.

The problem that we face is that those of a specific heritage refuse to join the rest of the world and promote a unity for the people while still retaining their specific religious/spiritual beliefs intact.

How do we maintain the peace even in our own "United States" when even we can not get over the inequality that may or may not be self imposed by some groups?

I think some folks are really mad that some other folks are getting special treatment in a time when we preach racial equality.

Fact is I'm as mad at the Native Americans as anyone because to me I have seen nothing but a disregard for the respecting of the precious resource that they have been jumping up and down for for years. This is because the poor actions of a few are showing through. When I go by Cascade Locks and see the salmon that I can't fish for being sold out of the back of a pickup truck looking like someone threw it up on the bank and rolled it around in the dirt and threw it in a box with 50 other fish in the same condition.

Where is the respect that the resource deserves that is my only question about the Columbia river Tribal fishing. I really don't care that they get to fish or net but please respect what you have.

I dont have issues with the people as a whole. I have issues with the apparent disregard they (the poor action makers) have for their own belief system.

Finally I believe that we as a nation need to make race a non issue in regards to fishing. The fish don't care who catches them. I dont care who catches them just as long as they are treated with the respect that any of our fine fish species deserve.

Respect your fellow fisher persons teach that respect to your children and hope that they pass that respect to their children.

I dont even know why that troublemaker RT started this thread images/icons/tongue.gif images/icons/tongue.gif

Rick

[CAGEY]

RT. Most of us are not racists. Myself included. I have nothing against the NATIVE AMERICANS wanting to preserve their culture, i just dont feel that the taxpayer should have to pay for it. They hunt whales to preserve their culture but they use motorized boats to do so. Is that part of their culture. I for one am extremely interested in native american ways of life. They were and are a proud nation of americans. I think the government is really to blame for a lot of the disagreement between the so called white man and the native american. The government allows those kind of things to happen so the native americans are naturally going to take advantage of it, wouldn't we? The native americans have a right given to them by treaty and they are only exercising that right. Sadly for them and the rest of us it has taken to many twists and turns and has placed us against them which is going to take a long time to reverse. The native americans are going to have to give on some issues and we are going to have to give on some issues and then just maybe we could all work together for the same cause. Be able to catch a nice salmon anytime we want.
True Racism...when you hate just to be hating something or someone. You hate because others hate.

Communication...i dislike rap for example but the person doing it has a right to do so. I dont like it, i dont listen to it.

Addressing others..respectfully regardless of who they are or what they stand for. I dont have a problem with the word indian but "Native American", sounds a
whole lot more friendly.

I dont know if i responded to your questions correctly but i gave you my two cents worth. Cagey

THE THINGS THAT COME TO THOSE WHO WAIT MAY BE THE THINGS LEFT BY THOSE WHO GOT THERE FIRST. images/icons/smile.gif

[bait boy]

That was some of the same point I was trying to get across but I think Cagey did a better job at it.

[Jennie@ifish]

Shame on me for even thinking of the delete key?
Shame on some of the posts in ifish history, calling native Americans "feather niggers" and other awful things that I have seen AND deleted in the past.
If this can be a civil, non name calling event, fine~!!! I just have never experienced that kind of debate between fishermen and Native Americans.
I will never give up that hope, I just have my hopes sandblasted by reality in the past.
Have a good day, and remember all the rules on ifish. If you can abide by them, no deleting will be needed, right?
I'm going to go play outside for a bit, we'll see how this plays out.
Jen
images/icons/wink.gif

[Osprey]

Good job Rich,I agree

my problem lies with the tribes wanting to be a seperate nation yet want all the perks that go along with belonging to this great Nation of ours....

go plant you're Garden Jen this topic is like that old Dog it won't hunt...Os

[sinker]

As I've always said "Don't me mad at the Indians, Be mad at the government for letting them get away with it"
We are the ones that put those government officials in office.

[Backlash2]

You do make a good point, Sinker...but, what happened to dignity? Self respect? Pride? Does anyone really think that the punks that continue the slaughter have any?
I try incredibly hard not to categorize all Native Americans into one group....sometimes very hard....but I try. Just because the goverment gives someone the ability to do something by making it legal does not make it right. And I guarantee anyone with an IQ above 60, if they stop and think about it, can distiguish right from wrong 99.9% of the time.
You Oregon boys(and girls images/icons/wink.gif ) don't have to deal with it as much as people from Washington, but a prime example is releasing wild steelhead. Even though they are legal to retain on most OP rivers, the majority of people choose to release these fish. Is it legal to retain them...yes. Is it the right thing to do...no. Why do we choose this? Because it's the RIGHT thing to do. NOBODY fishes to feed their family, economically it doesn't make sense. Fisherman that have made the choice to release these wild fish realize how valuable the fish are. I'll bet that most came to this conclusion simply by looking at what has happened in the past on rivers where killing wild fish was allowed. Thirty years ago you could club a wild fish just about anywhere. Runs started to decline, and they closed those rivers down. The viscous cycle continues through the years until we reach our current state of affairs. Obviously, the state is blind to the writing on the wall, and continues on managing river fisheries the same way they always have. JUST BECAUSE THE STATE GOVERMENT DOESN'T SEE IT, DOESN'T MAKE IT RIGHT images/icons/mad.gif
As I'm writing this it seems strikingly similar to me how Tribal gillnetting of our rivers follows the same path. As the years click by, the resource continues to decline, the same # of nets(of more) are still fished, and the oppurtunities for sport fishing go down with it.
Do any indians that participate in this really think that their forefathers are not turning donuts in their graves ??
Times change....you have to change with them, or you get left behind. Learn from past mistakes, not just yours, but others as well. Just because our government allows them to live in the past, DOESN'T MAKE IT RIGHT. ANYONE who respects and cares about fish, would not participate in this all out gang ****.
This is a passionate issue to many of us, just remember that all indians don't run gillnets, all indians are not alcoholics, and all indians don't have junk piled up a mile high in there yard. If you have a problem with one segment of any population(or race) make sure you address that specific group only...
There you have it, my view, bigotry free images/icons/grin.gif

[WheresMyBobber]

I'd like to help here RT, but I'm going to stay clear because my views are so strong I couldn't put up a post that wouldn't inflame the issue.

BUT - I want to give you kudos for using the term "euro" rather than "white". I don't know ANYBODY that is "white", but I know a heck lot of European Americans.

Good luck with this one.

[Nuttinbutnet]

If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem! And that cuts BOTH WAYS!!! When we talk about a problem with the Indian, we lump them all together. When we talk about a problem with the White man, it's just a few bad apples? The first to **** this resource were white. The **** of this resource continues to be white. Can you say electricity, lumber, cattle and commercial farming? The numbers of fish taken by the Indian pale when compared with what goes through the turbines. Learning how to co-exist under the rules is the answer. Finding common goals and applying all this energy is what needs to be done. Stop yelling about how many fish the Indian took and start yelling about how many of those fish were killed by the dams.

[Deleted User]

Whew!!!! This is going to interesting to say the least! I am impressed by the intelligent posts I have seen here so far. I don't know if any have been deleted but I think what everyone has said has a lot of merit.
I would have to say that ALL of us have a bit of racist in us. Remember racism is a learned thing and once it is ingrained into your subconcious it takes many generations to finally rid ourselves of it and quit passing it down to our children. Yes it gets diluted as it is passed on but it's still there and we still pratice it if even sub-conciously. I would say I am less prone to racism than my parents generation is and they are less so than their parents were.So hopefully I've taught my kids to be even less prejudiced. When we have an issue like the gillnet fishery on the Columbia River by native-Americans and the hypocrisy of it all then some of those deep buried racial feelings surface unfortunately.
As someone has said in an earlier post, why be mad at the indians? It's our short sighted government who created this mess. ask yourself honestly if you were given an opportunity to take advantage of a blunder by our elected officials would you do it?
Also true to is what RT alluded to. Racism is not a "white-only" behavior. I have seen it in all ethnic groups but I do believe the hatred I'v seen and experienced from other races is the same kind of learned response handed down from generation to generation. A lot of you might joke at what Rodney King said "Can't we all get along?" but those are very wise words.
In the other thread about rock music no one mentioned the song "Teach your Children" but it really applies here.
I hope this thread stays civil and it has so far. We have a lot of outstanding and intelligent people on this board and your thoughtful posts on this thread have shown that.
Stew

[sinker]

racism IS based on what is taught to you. Where does this start?? With ingnorance.
This ignorance also complains about the Nisqually Indians netting that river. Cracks me up to fishing down there and watch the Indians go up in their boats and the white guys are on the banks shaking their fists and hollering at them.
Now who is ignorant here?? Those salmon in those nets are going back to a tribal hatchery, the state never seen fit to put a hatchery on the river so the Indians did.
Makes me laugh at the white guys with the high blood pressure on the banks. If it weren't for those Indians in their boats on this particular river those white guys wouldn't have a reason to be there in the first place.
Little light bulb just went on images/icons/shocked.gif It was the white guys that dammed this river without a ladder on it.
Don't get wrong here, I have no Indian blood in me, nor do I have Indian friends. But I am open minded enough to see both sides of the story.
Backlash2 states "Sinker...but, what happened to dignity? Self respect? Pride? "
I have to wonder that everytime I go fishing around non-indian fisherman. Why should the indians be above the rest of society when it comes to morals. From the sounds of it almost all of the people on this board are very ethical. We are in the minority here.
Just my 2 cents here, not trying to flare anything up, just trying to get people torealize that its always a bigger picture than what you can see.

[sinker]

Cagey,
As far as the Makah's going back to whaling in their motorized boats. It upset me that they were so in your face about it(then again if it weren't for the media we would have never heard a whisper about it)
What I did love it for was the fact that the animal rights wackos were so upset about it and there was nothing they could do. Remember these are the same people that want to do away with your hunting,fishing,the cow out back, and the chickens in the barnyard. I did love to see them getting so riled up images/icons/grin.gif

[Jennie@ifish]

So far so good! Wow! No deleted posts? Cool!
Jen

[sinker]

I feel sorry for Jen and the mods on this one. images/icons/shocked.gif

[Backlash2]

Again, good point Sinker, but the thread title is about Native Americans(this P.C. crap is stupid...I was born here...I'm a Native American, too). Maybe we should have a thread titled "Slobs". Then we can seperately b***h about all the morons that leave their egg and worm containers, pop cans, 50 yards of old line, etc. all over our riverbanks....

[ 05-22-2001: Message edited by: Backlash2 ]

[DanS]

The comments on the dams and logging would only be valid if the tribes did not use electricity or finished lumber. They do, we do, so why is it that the "white man" gets the blame? I'm pretty sure my consumption of wood and electricity does not exceed the usage by your average tribal member, so why am I more responsible for what the dams and logging have done?

[Fuzzybutt & Angel]

Go to Hoodsport in November and see the HUGE
haystack piles of Chum Salmon carcasses on the beach, thousands and thousands of them, the hens stripped of the eggs and the bucks left to suffocate, NONE of the meat sold, only the eggs taken to sell to the Japanese market place. this is only a fraction of the wasteful policies of the "Native Americans" around here in washington. among others, special fisheries on ESA listed Chinook as well. even a Sockeye fishery on lake Washington....where there weren't any Sockeye in the first place before the "whites". why were they allowed to fish for them?? heritege?? traditon?? yeah right, that run didnt even exist back then.
this is a moot point. they do what they want, when they want, and take as much as they want PERIOD!and there isnt anything that can or will be done about it.
the very little they put into the resource, is hardly a drop into the bucket of the amount they take.

Fuzzy

[FishinBob]

So why all this talk about Indians/Native Americans/Euro's/Whites/Male/Female/Rich/Poor/Boater/Banker. Race has nothing to do with the fish in the river. The fish doesn't know who's on the other end of the line or net. There is a good chance you wouldn't even know that the person next to you is a native american unless they tell you they are. The real problem is not having the same rights. For example, your a white male, you go fishing and are only allowed to fly fish on your favorite lake but women are allowed lures, anyone under 25 is allowed bait and people over 65 are allowed to use nets. So how do you feel when you get out on the water at 0'dark thirty and fish till mid morning with only a few fish, then someone shows up and catches several more with a lure only to be outdone around midday by a youngster with bait but Oh wait here come someone with a boat load of fish from there nets. No wounder you count catch any fish they are all in the boat.
Its not the people themselves you have a problem with its that they are more equal and have more right and more privileges than you do. So don't blame the people or the race because I know of many "white people" that would be out there tring to make a living gill netting fish if they had the right. There is no law that will keep the nets out of the river and till there is there is going to be equal rights issues blamed on racism.

Think I'll go lake fish'n with some bait this weekend!

[Nuttinbutnet]

DanS,
I was referring to the producers and their stockholder profits,not the users of the products.

[DanS]

Thanks, nuttin', for the clarification. images/icons/grin.gif

[SteelieSteve]

I'm not so sure the issue here is rasism but all about tribal netting of the Columbia in a wasteful, negative impacting and selfish manner. It is our responsibility to maintain the wild runs in the Columbia. My views of tribal netting is that they do not care what happens to the wild stock as long as they can make a few bucks off any fish they can catch. The issue is stopping the mortality of all the wild fish while allowing fair fishing practices for all anglers not just a selected few. I had the opportunity to talk with a tribe member a couple months ago and the only impression I got was how many fish could he net, how much money could he get for them. This is not a forethinking group. As I see it they want all the fish, no discriminating for wild or hatchery but just catch them all and them gripe about what the Euro-Americans have done. Legislation they hope to push through now would halt fin clipping of all Columbia hatchery fish. Giving the tribes all the fish and none for those sport fishers that pay the bill. I do agree the problems lie with the policy makers. It is way past time to even think about treaty rights. Move forward and do something for the good of the fish, the future runs. It is past time to put a stop to all gillnetting! It looked like the test netting done was highly successful in returning unclipped fish unharmed back to the river. I firmly support the marking of all hatchery produced fish and allowing those fish only to be taken by all. As for the billing of BPA for raindances... how ludicrous(sp).
I don't care what race you are. It is everyones responsibilty to ensure future fish runs in the Pacific NW. I don't beleive any select group has a right to more fish than anyone else. Stop all gillnetting now!

[Backlash2]

I don't mean to keep grindin' on you 'Net, it's not personal images/icons/wink.gif
Dan's point is still very valid...the producers and stock holders are only able to make money because the market for their product is there. Free market economy...no demand, no product...no product, no business, let alone profit. The consumer drives everything, and we are ALL consumers... images/icons/wink.gif

[Deleted User]

You're right Steve but it's here and it ain't going away anytime soon....sad but true. So what do we as sports anglers do? What can we do? I've said it before and I'll say it again.... Join Up! Whether it's NW Steelheaders or the group that is mentioned in another thread on this DB. Put you money where your mouth is! It does no good to sit and ***** about the problem but do nothing about it. Write you congressman or state legislator! You might get no response but at least you are doing something! Make your voice heard! If 50% of the license buying public in both states would get active and get involved we could make a difference! In 1974 the NW Steelheaders and other conservation groups,despite being out spent and outmanned by the commercial fishing industry, made the differnce and the steelhead became a game fish in Oregon. The probelm is we have too many "users" of the resource. It's real easy to sit back and take but never give. Well now is the time to give Put up or shut up maybe that's a harsh way of putting it and I hope no one is offended but it's the only way to get our voices heard.

[ 05-22-2001: Message edited by: BIGSTEW ]

[smilesforu]

I read that thread that started the racism comments and yes they were racist because of the stereo typical abuse that was directed at the tribes. RT was one singled out because he allowed it to continue as a moderator (Or still has power to delete) and allowed it to continue. I applaud RT for wanting to clarify and inform himself we all make mistakes including myself. I think I missed the apology RT?

There are many things in this world we/me don't understand. One of the strange things about this is the fact BPA refused to pay for the ceremony. Was there really a agreement in the true terms of a contract to pay for the ceremony. Doesn't sound like there was, so they denied payment. The tribe has the right to go to court and prove there was a agreement. If it was made the tribe will get there money....simple. Now I suppose you want to bash the tribes religious right for a rain dance when it wins approval in court? Would you bash the tribes if they got prior approval in writing before the celebration? How many of you have gone to the reservation and seen the lack of economy base? The only economy most of the tribes have are the ones where our government over taxes us or prohibits us from doing it ourselves (Non tribal), like gambling, cigarettes, fireworks, etc... I have the privledge of knowing many tribal members from different tribes. Each tribe has its own way of governing itself and are considered separate nations which are also american citizens (dual citzens). Most fishermen are unhappy because they are not citzens of a nation that has equal rights.

I don't have a problem with the ceremony if it was agreed the BPA would pay for it ahead of time. If not shame on the tribe for expecting it. Since the BPA is a federal agency....do religion and government mix?

The tribes go to court to protect their rights and continually win on many issue fronts. In population they are the minority with the majority of control in how our fisheries are run.

Does anybody mind if I use a bulldozer on your house? I am willing to bet you would be fighting mad if I did....with or without a permit.
I see this thread as a way to be a politcally correct racist.... Jokes are funny until your the joke. Don't be mad just realize we all have flaws..and try to cope.

Marty

[CAGEY]

Hey Sinker, now that animal rights group is a real piece of work. I dont have a problem if the natives want to whale from a longboat and use only a spear but to use motorized equipment and call it restoring their culture then i have a problem with that. The animal rights group on the other hand have kinda adopted the rule of "lets save everyting". As usual the road to hell is paved with good intentions.(CAN I SAY THAT JEN)? Hell no you can't say that! images/icons/grin.gif
Stew

IT IS SAID THAT IF YOU LINE UP ALL THE CARS IN THE WORLD END TO END SOMEONE WOULD BE STUPID ENOUGH TO TRY AND PASS THEM. images/icons/rolleyes.gif

[ 05-22-2001: Message edited by: BIGSTEW ]

[boater]

politicly correct racist, give me a break. it`s not a racist matter is a "rights" matter and a prime example is the spring king season on the columbia, they had the "right" to keep wild fish and we didnt, to me this is far from a racist issue and is all about being treated equal.

[happybrew]

The only thing I have to say about this matter is that LOVE conquers all, and a little forgiveness, compassion, and understanding goes a long way. None of this will be cured by the courts, the legislature, or various government agencies. It is a problem that lies within the hearts of men, and it will be solved within the hearts of men. (That's the non-gender specific sense of the word 'men' to those feminists out there. I'm not politically correct, so I keep using that term. images/icons/wink.gif ) A solution that is coerced by anyone else will not work. The problem is the 'us' vs. 'them' thinking. That is the entire source of the problem. The only solution will be a mode of thinking that encompasses 'we'. Can there be differences among groups of people? Yes. Does this mean that one group has to win, and the other has to lose? No.

Dwelling on past, present, or potential future hurts will only prolong the problem. Everyone needs to let go of that. Each one of us needs to view the other, not as a competitor for a resource, but as a neighbor to share the resource with.

Is this likely? No, but there is always hope. Love and forgiveness do not work quickly, but they work better than the alternative. Do we want a quick solution, or do we want a good solution?

Let us all pray to our Father in heaven that the wounds of racism be healed, and that we come together as neighbors, rather than as competitors.

happybrew

[Deleted User]

Steelie Steve, you said "I'm not so sure the issue here is rasism but all about tribal netting of the Columbia in a wasteful, negative impacting and selfish manner". You are correct; that is what this thread has become. I hope we also get some more ideas for communication solutions as intended, but these are good posts.

Edit: Marty, my appology post at the end of the controversial thread was seen by some people. I received a couple e-mails thanking me for correcting what I should have done to begin with. But it got deleted along with all of the thread by it's original author, who put it up anew. As for the raindance ceremony you addressed, nobody "bashed" Indian rights to their religious ceremony, only them sending a bill for it to BPA - and it was not agreed to by the BPA or anyone else. ...

Happybrew, good post. And thank you for addressing the original intent of this thread.

Steve

[ 05-23-2001: Message edited by: RT ]

[Thumper]

I think folks here are overlooking the simplest of history lessons, and that lesson is why we have the current mess. And it ain't gonna get any better. Sorry.


The European "whites" lived in Europe and for centuries their tribes, or bunches of those tribes called "nations", beat up on each other unmercifully. The winners got to set the rules. The losers did as they were told.

Over here in the New World the "indians", more correctly likely the asian-americans of antiquity, lived in tribes and whupped on each other pretty good too. The winners got to set the rules. The losers did as they were told.

Then the European "whites" came over here. The whites and the "indians" went at it tooth and nail. And the Europeans, now called "white Americans", won. The "indians" lost. But this time the winners felt guilty (and probably correctly so) so they set up the losers as an independent nation co-existing with the winners. Later on, the courts gave the losers an equal share of all the fish (the Boldt decision). Bad idea, at least for fishing.

If the winners ("whites") had simply conquered and assimilated the losers ("indians") we wouldn't be having this dialogue. Too bad, cause nothing is going to change. So we best learn to live with it.

[Jennie@ifish]

Don't ask me, Cagey... That's why I have the mods!
images/icons/smile.gif

[boater]

RT, this cracks me up, An example of a minority's true racism; "get out of our gym honkey, you can't jump" - that has been said by some Blacks to a lot of very good white basketabll players (I have personally wittnessed this many times). this may be racism to you, but all in all was probly just some good buddys havin a good time.

[Joe Schwab]

A previous post rings typical of the mindset of "euro americans". Nobody "whupped" anyone on the Columbia River. There were no wars fought over fishing rights or land aquisition. The Treaty of 1855 granted certain rights to non indians not the other way around as most would like to believe. The Boldt decision affirmed this. Nontheless getting back to RTs points; Communication is the number one reason why we are stuck in the 19th century. I am convinced after witnessing firsthand for 18 years that government agencies are so bogged down with doing things the way lawyers tell them to do it that those in positions of power are too gutless to do the right thing and instead rely on what the courts might rule. Native Americans unfortunately believed in the spoken word. Attorneys came along and twisted these, therefores and whereas's until no one knew what the law said or meant. After working closely with the tribes for eight years and listening to what they had to say, I began to realize they only wanted what they thought had been promised to them, nothing more. By the mid 80s the runs were declining and the states were retreating into their shell with their attorneys, afraid to enter into a man to man discussion. But the Indians had learned well, hiring their own attorneys and beating the states at their own game. I still think communication is the way out of this mess. One thing I noticed working with the tribes was the respect they showed to each and every member who voiced an opinion. No facial overtones, no muttering or cutting them off, and a simple thank you for their contribution to the discussion. The bottom line is, then, to respect the others opinion and listen to what they say, not what you think they said. Preconceived ideas only allow us to hear what we want to hear. If we listen with a defensive mindset we lose half the subject. Hope this makes some sense. images/icons/smile.gif images/icons/cool.gif

[Pilar]

Alrighty then.

I agree with Stew on the quality of thoughtful posts made here. Thanks RT, you never hesitate to pick up any sword hurled to the ground.

The mess we are in now regarding special rights for ethnic groups is a result of compromise over a long period of time. I think it is important to understand that some of these special rights probably help the ethnic group in question. However just as many are abused and create the very hornet's nest atmosphere that makes this kind of thread like sweaty old dynamite.

The intent of the compromises made should be looked at. The authorities traded treaty rights for land. The rights included access to fishing grounds. Many years have gone by and things have changed. Now the fishing rights are pursued with modern technology.

The intent was to guarantee access to fish to a culture who deems fish important to life. How we got from there to selling poor quality netted fish out of pickups at Cascade locks is beyond me.

We must look at the consequences of netting wild fish. It doesn't matter who is doing it. If it happens to be one ethnic minority, then so be it.

We're all going to look pretty stupid if we allow political correctness to prevent the ending of gillnets and the extinction of wild Salmon on the Columbia.

[Backlash2]

Nuttinbutnet--
Well, since the topic is about indian relations, NOT DAMS, that is what I stuck to. But since you bring it up, the answer is really rather simple.
The need for electricity is greater than ever before. Everyone needs it. Whites, blacks, yellows, purples...EVERYONE. The dams aren't going anywhere, they're the classic 'necessary evil'. So, that pretty much makes them a wash. Do what you can to make them as fish friendly as possible, and move on.
The need for tens of thousands of fish to be netted out of the river, some sold for pennies, some not at all, IS..........hmm, I can't think of any.
Nobody relies on them to feed their family.
Nobody can make a living off of a part time job that doesn't pay well at all for the time put into it.
All of society sure doesn't rely on it as a basic necessity to everyday life.
Heritage.....come on. Gillnetting is not heritage.
Dipnetting is heritage, and I'm all for it.
Fishwheels are heritage, and I'm all for those, too.
You see, sportfishing is my heritage. My father taught me, his father taught him, and so on. I have done it since I was old enough to, before I can even remember. The netting I talked about above is the most direct (and current, not 100 years ago)threat to me losing MY heritage. It is also the threat that I witness on an almost daily basis. We aren't so different, the indian fisherman and us. Except for the fact the my heritage is being out there, enjoying the experience and admiring the fish I catch. Then, releasing most of them because that is the most direct thing I can do to insure I can still do it 20 years from now.
CAN THEY SAY THE SAME THING??? images/icons/frown.gif

[ 05-22-2001: Message edited by: Backlash2 ]

[SteelieSteve]

RT
I don't see a clear division between the racism topic and the causes. As I see it the race issue arises from the fishing quotas and the continued gillnetting. I'm all for the continued heritage of Native Americans. they got screwed. But this is ancient history. We have to deal with the issues as they are now. Do you see my point?

Capt. Hook there was a war with the Yakimas before either Oregon or Washington were granted statehood.

[Deleted User]

Steelie Steve, I just re-read the whole thread and I think I agree with you. It was a nice idea, but it seems inseperable from the causal affect of the utter wrongness of some of the Indian fishing issues. They are too strongly intertwined. I just hope that blatant true racism can be deminished so that the fishing issues come to the forefront rather than race when these topics are discussed. ...

Capt. H, yours is a very good thread. And you have insight dealing with the Native Americans for so long. I agree with much of what you said with one very big exception. You stated, "After working closely with the tribes for eight years and listening to what they had to say, I began to realize they only wanted what they thought had been promised to them, nothing more." I strongly disagree with that statement. It simply isn't correct. They were 'promised' only an equal split of the fish. They want and take much more! How could you say that in light of the Columbia Tribes demanding and wrongly getting (via stupid goverment mis-decisions) a 13% ESA impact on the Col. springers while the non-Indians, who were 'promised' 50 % of the fish deemed harvestable by both signed Treaties and Federal Court review mandates of a 50/50 split, got only a 2% ESA impact (the commercial netters getting 1.1% and the sportfishers getting 0.9%)?!? Credible witnesses report the same situation with many other Indian gillnet fisheries around the NW also. Which Tribal people were you around that gave you such a misrepresention? ... BTW, there is an example of a non-racist factual statement about Indian fishing issues.

RT

[smilesforu]

Steve can you tell me what the actual fish take was for both sides including the impacted fish? Was that a 50/50? Just wondering since tribal fishing methods aren't as selective as us sporties. Did the tribes get more of less fish than the non tribal fishermen with their higher impact. Just wondering.. I know the new nets may change the way commercial fishing is done.

[Deleted User]

images/icons/rolleyes.gif I'll answer that with a question Marty. Did you hear any Indian complaints about the number of Columbia springers they harvested this spring?

[SteelieSteve]

RT
I think much of the racial issue stems from the conflict from the fishing issues not a true racial stand ie: the way afro-americans were discriminated against in the South. As I see it the Tribal racial conflict is more a kneejerk reaction from the fishing issues. I fail to understand why the Tribes can harvest unclipped fish(causing a much more serious impact) while sportsfisherman release all of them. So much for my soapbox stand. It is very important to we sportsfishers that we address these issues to our Senators and representitives. Please read David Johnsons thread and act now!

[Osprey]

Hey Sinker,
Who do you think paid for those hatcheries on the Nisqually,Who paid to educate their Biologist etc etc etc???????...Os

[sinker]

Os,
At least they're willing to run them. It's better than the alternative. I grew up right down the road from the white river in Enumclaw. Puget Sound Energy years ago built a dam across the river to divert water to Lake Tapps. The Muckleshoot tribe sued about the fish runs. PSE built a hatchery ran it for a couple yrs and then turned it over to the Indians. Fishing is still closed as far as I know in the White River. The only time you can access these fish is while they are passing through the lower Puyallup.
At least you can fish the Nisqually right up to the creek the hatchery is on.
I could care less who paid for it. For all you and I know the tribe paid for it. Do you know for a fact that the state paid for it? Do you know for a fact that the state paid for every tribal hatchery out there? I highly doubt that they did. Washington has been shutting hatcheries down due to funding problems while the tribes are opening up hatcheries.
Granted hatcheries aren't the best alternative, in some cases they are the only one.
As far as I can see the tribes have been working harder at putting more fish into the river than the state has.
But that's just my opinion. I'm sure I'm gonna hear about this one. In an earlier post I stated that I'm open minded enough to see both sides of the picture. Remember I also stated that if you want to blame someone go blame the government. Remember the Federal Fish and Wildlife service over ride everybody when it comes to setting these laws into place. Basically if you want to even everything out you need to get someone in DC with the guts to say enough!!!

[Deleted User]

I've been reluctant to jump in on this thread. I've spent the time reading through everyone's posts rather carefully, and quite frankly the dailoge has been fair and at the least, thought provoking.

I think I'm qualified to make quite a few statements, whether they are my own opinions, opinions of those in the town I live in, or even infomed facts and observations regarding Native Americans, their respective culture, their interaction with non-natives, and possibly even their fishing rights. I live in E. Oregon and work rather closely with a number of tribe members from the confederated tribes. I will only comment on a few statements and then throw out something to 'stir the pot' a bit.

Steelie Steve, you mentioned in one of your posts that 'This is not a forethinking group'. I don't want to take this quote out of context as you were referring to tribal fishermen you encountered - however, as a whole, the tribe(s) and their leadership are a very forethinking group. Something we all need to keep in mind at this point is that the Tribes are becoming more powerful as they have begun creating revenue by a number of means, one of which is gaming. As the tribes become more wealthy, they also become more powerful and their voices are being heard on a much greater scale now than ever before.

Just this morning I had the privilege of fishing for salmon on the Umatilla river. If you are familiar with this river and its' history, you will know that the springer run became extinct because of a dam built on the river over 70 years ago. Within the last ten years, however, the salmon run has been restored on the Umatilla because of 'An Agreement of Understanding' between the Confederated Tribes of the Umatilla Indian Reservation and the ODFW. Beyond springers, The Tribe has done an excellent job of managing a hatchery which has put thousands of spring and fall salmon smolts along with Coho and Steelhead smolts in the river now annually. Everyone is happy with the Umatilla. No, I didn't catch anything this morning, as a matter of fact I had a fish on for about 30 seconds and then lost it! Dang it! That's another story......

At this point, everyone has benefited from this agreement which has given the tribe traditional (yes, old style tribal fishing methods)along with a number of sport fishermen who have been able to tag a number of fish annually. This agreement is a perfect example of how the tribes and governments can productively work together and create a positive outcome for all parties involved.

That's all I really wanted to say!

Dave

[BUGLEMAN]

To begin I feel that there is no word we could give the Indians that would be sufficient or politically correct. Indian was coined by Euro's and so was America. The Indians don’t have a word for their kind in general so I will use the word Indian until they tell us differently.

The hearts of some men has been, was and will always be selfish and greedy. History has shown this and will repeat. Look at the deep seeded racism in the Balkins or the documented warring of the Indian tribes or even the cattlemen and sheepherders of our early and late history. It is in the heart of men to take advantage of situations and affect personal gain - greed. Yes those Indians are greedy that gill net the wild fish in the Columbia that is a fact by logic and definition. From that, it is not unreasonable to infer that those fellow tribal members in support of gillnetting are just as culpable in that greed. I would bet that if you asked 100 Indians you would get nearly 100 saying that they support tribal gillnetting of wild fish. So a person could conclude that Indians are greedy as a society. Is that a racist statement? No, I say a predictable part of human nature. That nature needs to be leveled by an even playing field. We, “white man”, is discriminated against by the Federal government and Indian’s through an unfair Indian fishery. That is the source of our resentment and in some people, understandable but not helpful, racism. The playing field needs to be leveled and only the Federal government can do that either by a legislative or executive order or by lawsuit through the federal government. Just examine the demands in negotiations made by the Indians in the last round of talks, regarding their allocation for springers, it is apparent they are not interested in being fair to us “white men” and by asking for a 13% allocation (I think) they place their self interest above the “Sacred wild Salmon.”

I agree that to affect positive dialog we need to be respectful and remove those racist issues from the table. It just gives those on the other side of the table more justification to be “unfair”. Even calling one side greedy as I did above is, as I see from Steve’s question, unhelpful in a dialogue. I am just saying I understand the frustration and how, even, I can say something racist.

I know that the question is regarding racism so in another thread, Steve could we explore why we as a recreational fishing group can’t/could sue the State, Federal government and even the Tribes to get our fair ESA impact? The solution seems easy enough. There is technology out there for them to get their 50% without ****** the rivers and the tribes won’t do it unless they are forced to. I do see where you are going with these questions and bridging the gap is the only way to get one side to bend to the middle with out war. I just feel like fairness from the Indians regarding ESA impact will never happen without a war in the courts. It is too political of an event to get the politicians to let the by product of our rivers, (the sport fisherman) a fair shake of the dice. Incidentally I think we could win........

[ 05-23-2001: Message edited by: BUGLEMAN2U ]

[sinker]

It basically boils down to the root of all evils. "Money its what makes the world go around"

[sinker]

No generating capitol??? Seen any casinos lately? Not sure where the Nisqually tribe gets their funding from but I would imagine the Muckleshoot tribe gets theirs from its casino. I don't have a freakin clue where they get their funding now. Granted it used to be federal $$ but now it's hard telling.
I know the Muckleshoots last year gave the state $500,000 to study why the elk in the Green River watershed are disappearing. I figured it was due to tribal hunting(ignorant thoughts I know), turns out the state biologists found it was bears and cougars eating the calves.
So now the tribe is buying hounds to give to members to hunt the bears and cougars.

[ 05-23-2001: Message edited by: sinker ]

[Osprey]

Those hatcheries were there!!!! long before that Casino went in,
what rock were you under,
try and keep things current,
taking things out of context isn't making a very good point....bottom line is we paid for em!!!!!Remember were talking about the Nisqually ,
The Muckleshoots are leaps and bounds ahead of the Nisqually's as far as generating Funds for the tribe.

I'll try being nicer if you try being smarter images/icons/rolleyes.gif .....Os

[ 05-23-2001: Message edited by: Osprey ]

[sinker]

Os, Listen I can only be as smart as what I know. I'm fairly new to this whole salmon/steelhead fishing.
I don't have a clue how long the Nisqually hatchery has been in place.
I thought I was being smart by not jumping to conclusions about a topic that I don't fully know. I don't know for fact where they get their money. Have you seen the documentation in person stating where they currently get their funding??
Granted yes $$ came from elsewhere to build them, but as you stated "try and keep things current" very few people know where they get the $$ now.
Until I see documentation on where it's coming from I won't jump to conclusions.

[Osprey]

Sinker nothing personal images/icons/grin.gif
As you can tell this topic hits very close to home,having grown up a 1/4 mile from this river and fishing it for over 20 years for Some of the largest ,meanest ,Native Steelhead in the lower 48,I still ask the question,why after 10 years is it still closed images/icons/confused.gif images/icons/confused.gif
In the past few months I've been in contact with the local fisheries Biologist in Oly,things aren't working the way they've been doing things,so I'm assuming their ready to try something different...Os

[sinker]

Nothing personal back atcha!! images/icons/grin.gif
I realize that people on this board have been involved in this sport much longer than I and take it to heart much more.
Give ya a little background here. I'm 28yrs old, been salmon fishing for 3 yrs now, never been steelhead fishing, only person in my family that fishes. So what I know is from what I've read and from watching strangers on the bank (I get some weird looks when i set my pole down and just watch people for a while images/icons/grin.gif )
So If I do sound stupid it's probly cause I really am images/icons/shocked.gif images/icons/grin.gif
My biggest point is don't get ticked off at the Indians, get ticked off at the people that are allowing it. Do you know how many white people would be doing it if they could get away with it?? That's a scary thought!!
I have no problem with the Indians. If they are doing something unethical, it's because they are uninformed and did't learn from the same people most of the people here did.
The problem I have is with the gov't officials not having the gonads to step in and be non-pc.

[Osprey]

With no generating capitol to speak of ?those hatcheries were funded by our tax dollars..(state or federal does it matter)Duh

sure you can fish up to the creek,For Salmon images/icons/frown.gif

explain to me why we haven't been able to fish for Steelhead in 10 Freaking Years yet the tribe is compensated every year it remains closed....funny how things work that way images/icons/rolleyes.gif ....Os

[Deleted User]

There are 2 recurring themes in many of these posts that need addressing; that the Government is to blame, not the Indians, and that the dams are to fault for us sportfishers getting shortchanged our due fishing opportunity. ...

Contending that it is our Government that should be blamed for the unfair advantages that desendants of Native American Indians get over and above the signed Treaties and Federal Court mandates of an equal split of the fish is partly correct, partly incorrect. (addressing current government, not the ancient government that signed treaties with the 50/50 split written in). The part that is correct is the improper Secretarial Order #3206 that came from the Fed. Dept. of the Interior mandating, mostly via the NMFS, that the Indians should be the last to lose fishing opportunity because of what they lost due to the dams. This is partly at the root of why the Indians got many times more fish than the sportfishers that paid for the fish (there is more reason, that I will address below). I agree in blaming the Government for this mistake. However, the dams were built by former generations, NOT us present day sportfishers who are paying for the hatchery replacement of the fish lost to the dams! And many of us sportfishers don't have any ancestors that took place in dam planning or building. Equally important, and wrongly overlooked by both the Dept. of the Interior and the wrongfully self-serving Columbia Tribal Fish Commission, is that the Indians have been using electricity as we have throughtout the previous century; and by the dawn of this new century are long into using an inordinate huge amount of electricity from said dams to run the hugely profitable Indian gambling casinos! And these exclusive casino rights were given to the NW Indians primarily for compensating lost fishing opportunity. So shame on the Gov. for the wrongful #3206 - the strongest order out of Wash. DC that contributed to the Indians getting 13 times the Col. fishing impact on this year's springers as the sportfishers got! ... However, this idea the Gov. is all to blame and not the Indians, is incorrect and more complex. Why? Likely at the forefront is the Columbia Indian Tribes have a long standing Fed. lawsuit threat on the table, brought forth in most fish allocation negotiations, to sue the Government in Federal Court to have all the dams on the Columbia removed within a set number of years and have replacement energy. While appearing like a grand idea for the fish and fishermen's cause, they know as well as anyone that is not only a sure armagedon to the entire NW economy, including theirs, but it is at least risky to the fish themsevles! Can you imagine the potential impact of immense amounts of mud and silt choking the Columbia River for decades will have on the fish? And there would be NO money left for hatchery propagation of salmon and steelhead. And all the while the Indians would continue to gillnet the remaining native fish into extinction. So I don't really think they want this to occur; especially with their huge windfall profits from the electric casinos going by the wayside with the torn down dams and torn down economy! BUT, they are smart enough to realize the States and NMFS worry enough about another stupid court decision coming down on the side of the Indians, as it wrongly did in the infamous Judge Boldt and Judge Belloni decisions, to cower to the unfair demands by the greedy and unethical negotiation scenarios of the Indians! Why else do you think they can get away with 13 times as many fish when the Treaties and Fedreal Court mandates call for an EQUAL split?!? All the while using the dam's electricity to run their fish compensation casinos! images/icons/rolleyes.gif They deserve the criticism they are getting! And it is not racial, so shame on those of them trying to play the race card.

RT

[BUGLEMAN]

Rock on!

So as I alluded to in my previous post the sports fisherman are the by product of the river (in the government's eyes). Meaning we bear the full brunt of the impact from the dams. The government sees an easy solution to appease the Indians and gives most of our allocation to the Indians. I say we need to band together - those that fish the Columbia and sue/threaten the Federal government to give us our allocation and let others share in the impact of the dams. And to also say we won't be bullied by your B.S. threats. When the dams were build the Indians recieved thier compensation.

Who should bear the brunt? I say mostly industry. Smelters, chip plants, etc who have made billions off of the cheap power and the only way to do that is to force the Federal government to find another way than to shut down our fishery.

Also it really sucks that the Indians have a vested interest in forcing the extinction of Salmon. A big fat settlement. And the Hiya hiya rain dance - what a crock of $h!+.

[ 05-24-2001: Message edited by: BUGLEMAN2U ]

[SteelieSteve]

Nope don't wanna see hey_y'all in a grass skirt doing the hula images/icons/grin.gif images/icons/grin.gif images/icons/grin.gif bpa, state and federal govt. and ifishers would probably pay to prevent that.
images/icons/grin.gif images/icons/cool.gif images/icons/grin.gif

[ 05-24-2001: Message edited by: SteelieSteve ]

[sinker]

Hey yall,
It wasn’t the state or federal government that is giving the tribe dogs. It’s the tribal gov’t themselves. They seen what a stupid law the citizens of this state passed on emotion and not science and now are doing their part to control the predator problem. They’re encouraging they’re members to hunt them. On this issue, more power to them.
I don't feel that the $500,000 given to the state was a PR deal either. The state wasn't stepping up to the plate to figure out where all the elk were going so the trible did. Granted they had a vested interest since this is where they hunt, but at least someone stepped up and made an effort.
Besides the fact that the state has never opened this watershed up to hunting for predators to white hunters. The tribe is the only ones that are allowed in to hunt them. Why the state never has I have no clue. There's always been a ton of bears in there, just in recent years has there been a problem with the cougar explosion. The tribe has the power to deal with this problem that none of us has.

[Jennie@ifish]

Let there be peace on earth and let it begin with me.
Let there be peace on earth, the peace that was meant to be.
With God as our Father, brothers all are we.
Let me walk with my brother, in perfect harmony.
Let peace begin with me, let this be the moment now.
With every step I take, let this be my solemn vow:
To take each moment, and live each moment in peace eternally!
Let there be peace on earth and let it begin with me!
images/icons/smile.gif
Jennie's signature.

[Jennie@ifish]

I'll preceed the images/icons/rolleyes.gif and the "Here comes Mom" images/icons/rolleyes.gif posts!
Tee hee!

[AuntyM]

Time for a little humour!

When white men discovered this country, Indians were running it.

No Taxes.

No Debt.

Women did most of the work.

Indian men hunted and fished all the time!

White men were dumb enough to think they could improve this system? images/icons/grin.gif images/icons/grin.gif images/icons/grin.gif

[Killertraylor]

Jennie - please delete Capt. Hook's post - he clearly has a strong prejudice against attorneys images/icons/smile.gif I appreciate the posts of the other European Americans who are outraged that they don't have equal (fishing) rights. Fight the Power my European American brothers and sisters!

[Beek]

Hey Yall,

"as a group of people they are the wealthiest"

Can you explain this statement? My understanding is that the Indian suicide rate is 3x that of the "white man", and life expectancies are considerably lower, as are standards of living. Why is this "wealthy, well off group" killing themselves at a substantially higher rate than the rest of the population?

The "problems" with the tribes stem back to a process of assimilation and de-culturization(not sure if this is a word) that the Government embarked upon 100 years ago. The Government creates a dependant culture that they hoped would wither away and become "white". Well they haven't. The result is an Indian that doesn't give a crap if Osprey gets to fish for Steelhead in a once productive stream. Why would someone who can trace their roots back 1000 years to the State of WA care if some redneck who's family has lived here for 100 years or less gets to C&R Steelhead? The idea that your "right" to catch fish supercedes all is ignorant at best.
The Indian finally has his opportunity to punch back, and he's going for the balls....and do you really blame him?

And I know someones going to give the old"I don't care what happened 100 years ago" speech. If thats the case then lets forget the Holocaust and all other atrocities of the past.

Not trying to start a fight, but I'm always amazed that people can't see the issue is bigger than fishing.

Matt

[Deleted User]

You are right Matt. The issue is bigger than fishing; as I addressed right from the start of this thread. However, I feel compelled to address your following statements:

Matt quote - "The idea that your 'right' to catch fish supercedes all is ignorant at best."

RT - Matt, nobody in this thread proclaimed their right to catch fish supercedes all! Many have rightfully reminded that non-Indians aren't getting their lawful 50% of fish deemed harvestable, and that the Indians are getting more than than their lawful 50%. It could credibly be contended the Indians proclaim "their right to fish supercedes all", in all fishing negotiations and otherwise.

Matt quote - "The Indian finally has his opportunity to punch back, and he's going for the balls....and do you really blame him?"

RT - Matt, the Indians have always had the opportunity to punch back and they used that opportunity, as did the Euro desendants. Do I really blame them for going for the balls now? I won't try to place blame on them for some of their actions, some I will. In the case of unfair fishing negotiations I think it's more than just unfortunate for non-Indian fishers; I think it is very unfortunate for them that they are "going for the balls", because their image and chances at living in harmony with all the other races in this country deminishes with that behavior!

Matt quote - "And I know someones going to give the old 'I don't care what happened 100 years ago' speech. If thats the case then lets forget the Holocaust and all other atrocities of the past."

RT - Matt, take another look at that last statement of yours and see that it is utterly foolish; and even irrelavent! By your thinking in that misstatement, Jewish people should go for the balls and severely punish modern German desendants? And African Americans should go for the balls and enslave all Euro Americans; even those that aren't ancestors of the ones that wrongly enslaved Africans? Come on!

images/icons/rolleyes.gif

[ 05-24-2001: Message edited by: RT ]

[Beek]

RT,

This interpretation...

"By your thinking in that misstatement, Jewish people should go for the balls and severely punish modern German desendants? And African Americans should go for the balls and enslave all Euro Americans; even those that aren't ancestors of the ones that wrongly enslaved Africans?"

...of my quote is as utterly foolish as you believe my statement to be. How you determine that I feel that Blacks should enslave Whites from the statement "we can't forget the past" is amazing.Why is it a "misstatement" to point out that the "past is the past" argument is invalid?

The Indians were killed im mass numbers by European settlers, in what some scholars refer to as a Genocide,ie the attempt to eliminate a people/race. By your interpretation of my quote, I am saying that the Indian should turn around and attack the White Man as retribution. I never condoned any of the Indian tactics, I merely stated that I UNDERSTOOD them. Big difference. If you truly want to understand why the Indian acts the way he does in certain situations, then you can't hide behind the argument of "it wasn't me, so why should I pay for the sins of the past."

In return for leaving their settlements, and the hundreds of thousands of their people that died due to Euro-Indian conflict, and the disease that the European man brought( I don't blame him for this), the Indian was given reserve land, and Treaty Rights. If you were Indian would you be in a rush to cede any of these privelages, considering the price your people paid for them.

As for the Indian possibly proclaiming that his right to fish supercedes all, is this not the case? By LAW, are the Indians not the user group that has the 'right' to fish.

I don't agree with rotting Chums on the banks, and the killing of wild steelhead, but I UNDERSTAND why they don't give a s#@t if I agree or not.

Now heres one of your qotes...
"because their image and chances at living in harmony with all the other races in this country deminishes with that behavior!"

Snap out of it Dr.King. Their chance at living in "harmony" was squashed 100 years ago, and continues to diminish.You mean if they remove their nets from the water, they will be immediately accepted into society, as first class citizens? We'll all be down at the Flistones Jambouree singing campfire songs together images/icons/rolleyes.gif . Just look at the posts that usually come from a discussion like this (this one being the exception). Harmony is not the word I'd use to describe them.

Your original post was about communication and understanding....without understanding, communication can't exist. To understand, you must look beyond the obvious.The obvious is wild steelies being gill netted in the rivers. Whats not so obvious are the reasons WHY the Indian would do something that isn't particularily profitable, and goes against his heritage. This is the point I am trying to make.

Matt

[sinker]

Basically in a nut shell what it all comes down to is that those indians that are netting your native steelhead are uninformed. They are just as uninformed as the white people you and I see along the banks of the rivers snagging fish and laughing about it. They are uninformed just like our ancestors 100 years ago that ***** the salmon runs in the lower Columbia.
On that note, makes ya wonder why we don't have healthy runs today. Is it the logging, fishing, indians. These runs were decimated long before there was logging or Indians out there in deisel powered boats and gillnets.
The whole reason they are uninformed is the same reason backwoods boys(used to be me images/icons/rolleyes.gif ) grow up to racists. That is what is taught to them. Does it **** people off when they do ingnorant things. Yes it does. But if they don't know or feel anything different, how ya gonna change that??
We all need to step back look at the big picture and try meeting halfway sometimes. Dragging lawsuits through D.C. is not going to get anywhere very fast.
I don't know what goes on behind the scenes when they have these meetings to set quotas. But I would imagine the representatives of each group don't meet before hand and try to iron things out. Try to show things through their eyes. Human nature would see that as a weakness. Human nature would want you to go into a meeting like that with guns blazin'.
Maybe there are meetings ahead of time, I have not a clue. If there are I have great respect for those people. It's not shoes I would want to fill.
I have a friend thats married to an Indian.He told me you've never seen a more racist bunch than the ones on this particular reservation. How do you get rid of that? I don't have a clue. It's like trying to get rid of racism in backwoods kentucky. Hopefully in time it lighten up. What it took for me was maturity and getting out of the small town mentality that I grew up with.

[ 05-25-2001: Message edited by: sinker ]

[THE REEL HEY_YALL]

"Remember racism is a learned thing and once it is ingrained into your subconcious it takes many generations to finally rid ourselves of it and quit passing it down to our children."

Sorry Stew, Good saying, but I have to disagree completely. You can rid racism through knowledge, understanding, etc. but basically thinking for yourself. It's like a person whose whole family ancestry were buddists, and they become Christian. Yes, it is that simple, but too many people lack the ability to think for themselves, and possess less ability to act for themselves.

What I said in my reply over on Bob's to Mike H's thread was not really racism to a sovereign nation images/icons/rolleyes.gif but to a group of IGNORAMUSES who thought up the bright idea to get the BPA to pay for a raindance.....lol I'm sorry, but that's one of the funniest things I've ever heard of. Why is it funny?? Simple. I could go to Hawaii and do a hula dance and say it promoted that area's well-being and send the government the bill for my plane tickets, lodging, hula skirts, etc. It's ridiculous...not just the fact that I can't dance.

ALSO, TO WHOMEVER THINKS THERE WAS NO WAR BETWEEN ANY SAID TRIBES CRACKS ME UP AS WELL. I don't quite remember INDIANS keeping records in books way back then. Sure, they may have had drawings written on cliffs, but the elements can make those records disappear. Also, what classifies a "war"? There are skirmishes and fighting all the time nowadays and we don't classify them as "war".....wonder what it was like back then in that regards.

Christopher Columbus was en route to the East Indies, but wound up in the West Indies and called the people "Indians." I really do not see how that term can be termed as offensive to anyone, but maybe to the people of India, but what the "hay".... I know I never played Cowboys and Native Americans as a kid. I know I find the term Native American offensive to me because #1 I am American and I recognize the fact that I live in America and abide by AMERICA'S LAWS, not my own groups' laws.

If we are created equally, then why can't we be treated equally? Because there are too many people who are either ignorant or greedy to ever keep this from happening, and since unemployment is around 35% on the rez's compared to less than 5% nationally and as a group of people they are the wealthiest, you tell me who's keeping who from being treated equally?

I'm not being racist, but when they drop the money thang and actually play that heritage card the right way, then we'll play, but until then, it only flies on paper with the federal gov't, but not with me. Also, why does the state or federal gov't have to give anyone dogs to go hunt? That $500,000 was a public relations thing. Movie stars and athletes do that all of the time to help towards positive publicity to outweigh negative publicity.....DUH

[Deleted User]

Hey Beek, now I understand what you are trying to say. Not. images/icons/confused.gif I just can't make sense of some of the things you are trying to make a point about. And that's OK, miscommunication happens. However, one thing you said I did understand and it's undoubtedly incorrect. I know - you said it about me; essentially that I shouldn't hide behind the "past is the past" concept. I'm not hiding behind anything! And your contention of 'that statement is invalid' is incorrect by default alone, as well as in principle, because the past just happens to be the past. The only thing I see valid about the past as it concerns the present is what was learned from successes, learned from mistakes, and laws that are carried over as yet unchanged. The past is NOT an excuse to do wrong in the present (read this sentence a few times if you find that concept challenging - it's true and it's important). Furthermore, when will you and a few others get the concept that the complaints about Indian fishing aren't about their agreed upon rights. It's about the wrongs of the Gov., Tribal Comm.'s, and some lawless individual netters. Read "share the fish in common with" (signed Treaties), and "split the fish deemed harvestable equally" (Federal Court Treaty review mandate), and then read about the "Col. Tribes get 13% of the springers, everyone else combined gets 2%". There it is. What's so difficult to understand about this mistake? That may be correctable in the near future. ...

images/icons/rolleyes.gif images/icons/blush.gif images/icons/wink.gif Back to the thread purpose for a minute ... if the Native American Tribes (particularly the members involved in fish netting negotiations) and the sportfishers can gain a better understanding of each other and learn to communicate better, chances would be better to come to more agreeable fishing allocation fairness; even if the chances aren't real high for a complete agreement. I have e-mail invited members of Columbia Tribes and NW Washington Tribes to access and read these posts here and on the Piscatorial BB. I explained that moderators will take out any inflamatory blatant racist posts. Several are already registered on Bob's site. But so far they have chosen not to reply, except one post on Bob's BB (same thread as this one). I still hope they will. If they don't I'm sure most here will credibly figure they haven't because they won't be able to rightfully defend against the wrongs brought forth within this thread. And perhaps aren't interested in improving communication. If they were to invite me and/or some other members with varying views here to come up and visit with them about all this at their place, wouldn't we go and cummunicate; along with an unbiased rep of the media? I sure think so. ... I did finally come up with the e-mail address of Mr. Randy Settler, the high up Yakama official mentioned in the Tri-city Herald article by Mike Lee. He was the Tribal official that was involved in sending the Raindance bill to the BPA. I sent him an invitation to join our discussion, along with any pertinent Tribal members (sent 5/24/01). The Yakamas are members of the Columbia Inter-Tribal Fish Commission and one of the most involved Tribes in Col. fish netting allocation negotiations. Hopefully they won't also avoid communication. In case any of them ask me anything on here, I will be gone up to B.C. from early this Sunday to about late Wednesday or Thursday to fish for saltwater chinooks that will have no net marks on them. I hope when I get back to see Indian participation on here. And kept civil and productive by all. That would be great!

RT

[ 05-25-2001: Message edited by: RT ]

[BUGLEMAN]

RT you have raised some very interesting points. And communication is the key to moving beyond the status quo without lawsuits. I would even like to learn how to communicate with out facial expression or negative tones. That is a good goal. But as I see it the American Indians are getting everything they want why should they change? In thier eyes why should they enact fairness based upon a treaty for a few hook and liners. They are getting shorted out of millions of fish due to the dams. And the Feds are closing hatcheries ment to make up for the lost production of the inundated spawning beds. I am all for talking and reasoning. If you think about it we are on the same side as the American Indians yet they insist on making us enemies by using all of the influence they have to get an unfair allocation based upon the treaty. It is the Feds who are opporating dams without regard to smolt, drying up redds and warming the rivers not the American Indians. I am of course mostly familiar with the issues on the Columbia river. Not only has the Fed. destroyed like 90% of the habitat but they have also not opporated the dams in a fish friendly manner.

We should work together. I say if the heads of the Yakimas and Warmsprings are willing to open up a dialogue than let's work together. I feel it is thier best interest to do so yet, that would require work. If not, than so be it, let's start raising money and steal a very successful page out of the environmentalist book.