Downrigger Kokes

[Jedcraft]

Anyone ever tried running flashers(Bolo - willow leafs, etc) straight off the ball/cable then the release clip off the back of the flasher rather than slightly above and behind? Just brainstorming. Do great catching with the gang troll but want to fight the fish not the gear.

[moknots]

That's how I do it. I wouldn't mess around with just any old gang troll though. Do yourself a favor and check out Vance'sTackle.com -- his cannonball troll is plated with gold and silver. Just keep in mind that if you go nuts trying to really load the rod to take all the slack out of the line when it releases you will actually be pulling up the end of the gang troll and if you overdo that, you may not get blade rotation. Not that that's all bad, I kind of like the look of good big blades kind of fluttering, or rolling back and forth but not rolling over, kind of like a string of little dodgers. You can get Vance's Cannonball Troll at Sportsman's Warehouse too, but it's nice to go direct.

[Jedcraft]

Thanks for the reply. Now let the experimenting begin! Ever try Al"s Fish Flash (big plastic triangular flashers)or are they too big? Thought about hooking two or three or more of varying size end to end - would really put off some flash. I do like the ford fender type though as it actually jigs your bait when trolled at correct speed.

[jzell]

To quote Seinfeld.... "Not that there's anything wrong with that."

But...

I have and have used Vance's cannonball trolls off the ball and then run a release on a clip above that. Spaced the clip on release up from the ball equal to slightly greater than the length of the cannon ball troll, so as to minimize the chance of the troll tangling with the clip line, etc. Tangles can occur in the drop (too fast) or just in course of trolling...turns, stops, change of direction, etc.

Had a few !*&%$# tangles last year to make me do away with the cannon ball troll. Just another thing I gotta worry about / hassle with. Tough enough running 2 riggers. I'm not convinced they (CB troll) increased my catch or were a important factor.

So now I just attach the clip to the ball...with no CB troll at all. I run my gear (dodger + lure) a good 20+ feet back of the clip anyway.

What's the point of the CB troll if your gear is 20+ feet back of the clip?

I'm not trying to discourage the use of the troll off the ball....just sharing what I have experienced and my current way of fishing with a downrigger.

John

[Jedcraft]

I hear ya! Was thinkin' of maybe 2oz. lead on the back of gang troll to help keep it down on the sssllloooowww drop. But will try straight dodgers too.
Do you need to keep your wedding rings or hoochies pretty small as to not inhibit the dodger sway or do you use bigger dodgers. I would like to stay small for better fight with fish. More experimenting.

[moknots]

Good point Jzell. I actaully run the CB troll on one and clip the release right to the other cannon ball, and set back 20-50'. I don't get tangles with the CBT because the release is on the end of it, BUT, I don't ALWAYS catch more on that one. But I do often enough to make it worthwhile, and if the set back rod starts catching more fish .... I set them both back.

[jzell]

I guess my point is take your time with the use of CB trolls. Tangles will cost you fishing time as well as frustration.

Jedcraft...dodger size is your choice and yes the larger you go it will effect action. Something you want to do is go to a bigger dodger as you go deeper later in the season. Leader length does effect action. Generally 8 to 14" on hoochies and minimum length of 12 to 14" on a beaded spinner.

There may be industry guidelines....but a koke has none and you'll be surprised what he/she will like or dislike.

"Your mileage may vary"

John

[FallRiverGuy]

At times I run CB trolls off of the ball. If you try to run the line off the end of the CB trolls you can't load the rod properly. When you reel down to load the rod it will cause the back end of the CB trolls to lift in the rear and not run true.

I run the release off of the downrigger cable swivel and that leaves the back eye of the downrigger ball free for flashers. When you use flashes keep the lure about 2 feet behind the back of the flashers. If you let down every thing slow, it should be tangle free.

[FishnMike]

I do as FallRiverGuy states. Often in late summer down here in Calif I'll be fishing 100 to 120 feet so I will run the CB trolls to get added extra attention down that deep. I usually don't start using them until I get past about 60 feet. And when I do use them, I am paying attention to whether I think I am getting fewer bites then I should. If I feel I am scaring fish, the troll comes off. There are days when it will make all the difference.

FishnMike

[Jedcraft]

Any rule of thumb on how far behind the ball you run your dodger?
Have heard some pretty close 10 - 20' and also 50' - 100'?

[FallRiverGuy]

It all depends. If I am fishing less than 20 feet deep I like a long set back of 50 to 100 feet. Below that it depends on the fish. If the fish are picky I'll often put back 20 or 30 feet. Other times I'll only run back about 5 feet. With ball trolls, I place a the lure about 2 feet behind the end of the ball trolls.

[jzell]

I may be all wet here but would think shallower = longer back. Then shorten as you go deeper. Your dodger + lure is gonna drop some from the depth of the ball. So the shorter the "set back" the less drop and more accurate depth your at.

There are 2 good books out from Amato Publications (STS magazine) called Trolling Truths and The Trolling Handbook. Lots-o-good info therein.

John

[FishnMike]

Setback for me depends on how shallow and how much boat pressure. If I am fishing less than 40 feet I usually setback 40 to 50 feet. Once I get below that depth I start pulling them in close so I have more control over the lines.

Now if there are a lot of boats out and the fish are skittish I start increasing my setback to get away from the downrigger ball. Kokes aren't the smartest fish in the lake but if you are fishing in a popular area how many times do you think the kokes have seen a downrigger ball go by trailed imediately by a dodger then a lure? You can see this same sort of response if you ever get on a tight school of kokes and keep working them hard. Right off the bat the fishing is good but it slowy tapers off. You can still see them on the graph but they won't bite. But then you send a differnt dodger or lure down and bam, the bite is back on.

FishnMike

[jzell]

Good points FishnMike.

Shorter set back = more line control.

Also, "Change is good."

John

[joemomma]

I may be all wet here but would think shallower = longer back. Then shorten as you go deeper. Your dodger + lure is gonna drop some from the depth of the ball. So the shorter the "set back" the less drop and more accurate depth your at.

There are 2 good books out from Amato Publications (STS magazine) called Trolling Truths and The Trolling Handbook. Lots-o-good info therein.

John

I agree, I've tried it all, now I use no CB troll and just go back about 50' with a 4/0 dodger and a ul pole so I can load it up big time, and whamo! A old pro told me @ 1 mph troll speed, 50' back your gear will drop 5' so if the fish are at 50', fish 45', believe me it's better to be above than below them

[Mister G.]

Hi,

I guess I'm in the "if you're running your lures 40' to 50' back what's the point of flashers on the ball" school. As for dodgers in front of the lure, up at GP yesterday I finally found some Kokes, 12 in 3 hours. The First two were at 40' (or I guess 45, since I run my lures back about 50' from the boat) Green WRs with corn 4' behind an orange/silver prism 00 dodger.
After the second fish, just for the heck of it I took the dodger off then and ran with just the WR and corn. The rest of the fish came that way, no flashers, no dodgers, just a simple little WR tooling along at about 35'. Really makes a difference in the fight when they're not dragging other gear around.

BTW Shuttle Hawks (Shasta Tackle) are sure dandy. Dropped the ball once when I started trolling and didn't have to bring it up til I was done for the day.

:twocents: from DB

[LuckyStrike]

Jed, give a purple haze apex behind a dodger a try. Did quite a bit of experimenting last year. Off of downriggers we caught fish on kokanee kandys in purple and pink. All behind small dodgers to give action.

We had good luck on kokanuts in pink and pink hoochies all with firecure krill corn dyed red.

Deeper you go, I would use purple. Shallow, pink.

I experimented also with a lot of self tied wedding rings. Orange bead with gold spinner did best.

Was really impressed though with the apexes. good action. yes I tried the echips also and can't tell if they did any better.

Used bungees behind dodger, 50 feet behind the boat and an ultra light release from scotty.

LS:twocents:

[Jedcraft]

Thought a bungey behind the dodger might kill the action and was gonna try one a couple feet up front but never did. Purple huh? Did you ever try straight Apex and no dodger? We had best luck this last weekend with pink hootchies down to 40'. What do you consider shallow-maybe down to 50' and beyond that deep?

[LuckyStrike]

No the bungees aren't that bad. Do we land more fish? I don't know, I think my long handle net probably accounts for my high percentage landings. Using the little "kokanee kandy"s requires movement from the dodger and the bungee doesn't impede the action.

We did try the apexs without a dodger. That was the first year I used them. My wife actually picked them out.

I consider anything below 40-50 feet deeper. We caught fish in the middle of the summer at 90 using the purple kokanee kandy. I like the purple and blues in deeper.

I also did best with a gold/silver prism half and half dodger.

what kind of release do you use? I have tried many and would like to hear others opinions. I currently am using the scotty ultra lites.

LS

[Davy]

Way new here , great forum, anyway, headed up to Detroit Wednesday, anyone got a hot idea for the Kokes or the Chinook there? I have a 22' with DR's & tons of gear, just not sure on fishin the lake. thanks to all, real informative piece here.:cheers: Davy

[jzell]

Welcome Davy,

Look back thru the pages at the various Detroit posts. PM those guys who seem to know something about D. And/or add your reply to the Detroit post on this page.

Also it is traditional that one's first post include a fishing story.

John

[Davy]

Welcome Davy,

Look back thru the pages at the various Detroit posts. PM those guys who seem to know something about D. And/or add your reply to the Detroit post on this page.

Also it is traditional that one's first post include a fishing story.

John

Hey John, yeah thanks, did a search too, helped alot!

A story huh? how about from this past Sat-Sun:::

Brother wanted to try fishing for the bounty of the ********* on the Columbia. Hauled him up to The Dalles. Saturday, launched at the ramp and headed up toward the dam. Didn't like the looks of the rocks at the bridge so anchored down from there. Now apparently in all we have learned the last two days- is THOSE ROCKS are where the $#$%^ Pikeminnows are! But I did get a nice 5 or 6 lb Walleye for the BBQ, pic below, and we got several shaker sturgeon, which was fun for the brother, but ZERO money fish. It is a learning curve , one guy was checking out with 78 of em while we were checking out our big fat ZERO. Day two on Sunday produced similar zero results but were fighting 50mph winds and big waves just prayin for the anchor to hold and we quit about noon. We fought those headwinds all the way home.

Any new fishery has a learning curve but seems ridiculous we couldn't manage a few of the ******* critters. Specially on Sunday ,armed with some info as to lure choice and location form the man himself. Apparently a 45lb river anchor is in order and the balls to get right up below that dam and fish the heavy current near the rocks. Sand shrimp are the ticket for the larger sturgeon, we saw several oversize and legals landed. We didn't try- Steve wanted to try to catch a money fish. Didn't bring shrimp.

But one Walleye, about C-note of gasoline and a few ice cold beers later, we know little more about what NOT to do for those money fish. That , and I got to spend two quality days with a brother I don't get to see very often. No kids, no bosses,no wives , just two ugly guys tryin to appear to know how to fish and not kill themselves in the process.

[LuckyStrike]

Davy, I am not a Detroit fisher but just try tiny dodgers and hoochies or dodgers with dick nites with corn, white/red.. chrome/red.. Short leaders, Set up a couple at different depths, say 20 and 40 if not marking fish. If you mark fish, fish at that depth. Kokanee are going to look like a ball more than individual fish. You must absolutely use light releases or you will end up releasing with a jerk which is not good when kokanee fishing, soft mouths, lose a lot of fish. I upped my percentage with a long handled net.

Good Luck. :twocents:

LS

[joemomma]

Way new here , great forum, anyway, headed up to Detroit Wednesday, anyone got a hot idea for the Kokes or the Chinook there? I have a 22' with DR's & tons of gear, just not sure on fishin the lake. thanks to all, real informative piece here.:cheers: Davy

PM sent!