Just in... Geesh!

[Jennie@ifish]

The release of the details of the Bush Administration's budget has
revealed an attempt to gut the Endangered Species Act (ESA),
America's premier wildlife protection law. The budget contains an
extinction rider that will give Secretary of the Interior Gale Norton
sole discretion over whether or not imperiled species and their
habitat will be protected under the ESA.

Your calls, faxes and letters to your Representatives and Senators
are needed now to help maintain a strong ESA to secure the future of
America's natural heritage.
Where to write your government (http://www.ifish.net/write.html)

Jen

[WheresMyBobber]

Thanks for the heads up Jen. No, this does not surprise me. In fact I think we have a few more years of surprises like this to look forward to.

images/icons/frown.gif

[SteelieSteve]

Bush seems to be the least conservation minded President I've seen in my 50 years. No controls on any rising costs, wants to go drill in Alaska's protected refuge... all for the big money nothing for the people... hes nothing like his father.

[Eric]

All I can say is all of you who voted for this oil company moron are going to get what you deserve.

From a conservation standpoint, you should have voted for Gore. You think it's bad now...ole GW is just warming up his engines!

[CATCH AND EAT]

BUSH BASHERS!!!! IF AL GORE WERE HERE WE WOULD NOT BE FISHING. HE THINKS FISH ARE SENSIENT BEINGS. ENVIRONMENTALLY RESPONSIBLE IS OK. ENVIRONMENTALLY LOCKED UP IS SILLYNESS. DON'T BLAME BUSH FOR WHAT OUR FORFATHERS DID IN THE LAST 100 YEARS. HE ONLY HAS EIGHT YEARS TO DISTROY THE PLANET. THEY HAD 100. CLINTON DID NOTHING TO PROTECT THE ENVIRONMENT UNTIL THE LAST DAYS IN OFFICE. THEN HE ONLY DID THAT TO MAKE BUSH LOOK BAD. COME ON FOLKS GIVE THE GUY A CHANCE. IF YOU ARE REALLY WORRIED ABOUT THINGS BETTER LOOK AT KITZHABER, THE BPA, SUCKER FISH, AND THE FEDERAL COURTS. THERE IS WHERE THE REAL PROBLEMS LIE. NOTICE I SAID "LIE".

[GBSkunk]

Why is it that everyone who runs this board has to be a left winger. RT left, I thought that might help. But Bigstew, you're as liberal as he is. (you need to listen to your wife more images/icons/wink.gif ) Now come on, have you really looked into the drilling in Alaska issue? The actual footprint our drilling rigs will take up (about 2000 acres) is a small price to pay for the oil up there. Yeah yeah, we don't really know how much oil we'll get. It might me 6 months...it might be 66 months. But it's worth exploring in my opinion. It won't be DISASTER if we drill.
As far as Bush being anti environment, Clinton wasn't any better. Any law Clinton passed in the last 48 hours of his administration is a friggin' joke! It's nothing but playing politics to make Bush look bad. At least with this administration, he calls it like he sees it. He doesn't make every decision based on the latest poll numbers.
How about it fellow republicans? Timberman? Wildhawg? Nuttinbutnet? PeterMac? HappyBrew? OneLastCast? Let's hear from the right for a change.

[fishhead5]

Well said bernie. In Gore's perfect world we would all be fenced in like cows in Seattle. We would go to the top of the Space Needle to look out at the "Pretty Forest"

Fishhead5

[Bait O' Eggs]

GB - I would love to join you and get into a senseless arguement of over who is right and who is wrong accomplishing nothing but making people mad, but a simple rule on the BB works well for me. NO POLITICS!!! Things go better that way, and nobody gets called an idiot, no matter how much butter is put into the wording.

Anybody fishing this weekend? images/icons/grin.gif images/icons/grin.gif images/icons/rolleyes.gif

[Kwiky]

I find it particularly interesting that responses in this thread supporting our current president point the finger in other directions and raise hypothetical scenarios rather than addressing the specific issue mentioned by Jennie, which is the gutting of the ESA in the Bush Admin budget. I say put to rest the Al Gore references and defend the issue at hand, if you can.

[CATCH AND EAT]

KWICKY, LETS JUST SAY SUCKER FISH = ESA OVER REACTION. COHO, STEELHEAD, NOOKIES I CAN UNDERSTAND IF IT IS TRUELY A WILD RIVER. ALL PRE 1950'S DAM CONSTRUCTION HAD POOR FISH PLANNING FOR PASSAGE UP AND DOWN THE RIVER. THUS, NATIVE FISH NEVER MADE IT UP TO SPAWN. NOW WHAT HE HAVE BEING SOLD TO US AS A NATIVE IS A CROSSBRED HATCHERY FISH. MOST NATIVE SPECIES ARE EXTINCT. EVEN THE HATCHERY MANAGERS WILL TELL YOU THAT. WE ARE BEING SOLD A BILL OF GOODS ON THE PART OF THE ESA NO MATTER WHAT ADMINISTRATION HAS BEEN ENVOLVED.

THE HEART OF ALL MATTERS ENVIRONMENTAL IS TO BE TOLD THE TRUTH FROM BOTH SIDES OF THE FENCE. EXTREMISMS ARE NOT THE ANSWER. GOD GAVE US DOMINION OVER ALL OF THE EARTH AND THE CRITTERS TOO! WE ALL HAVE RESPONSIBILITIES TO BE CAREFULL IN ALL THAT WE DO. CERTAINLY THE ANSWER IS NOT TO CLOSE OFF NATURE COMPLETELY FROM US SO THAT WE CAN ONLY VIEW IT FROM THE SPACE NEEDLE BUT TO PLAN WISELY THE PUTS AND TAKES OF IT.

YOU WANT TO MAKE A DIFFERENCE. START BY WRITING THE ESA ABOUT THE BROWN TROUT PROBLEM IN THE WILLAMETTE, CAMAS PAPER MILLS, SMURFIT RECYCLING TRASH BLOWING ALL OVER THE NEIGHBORHOODS AND FREEWAYS. NOTE: OREGON HIWAYS LOOKED MUCH BETTER BEFORE RECYCLING TRUCKS HIT THE ROAD. NOW TRASH, TRASH, TRASH. THANK GOODNESS FOR CORRECTIONS FOLKS THAT PUT IN TIME PICKING UP GARBAGE AT TAX PAYER EXPENSE.

IF WE INVESTED MORE OF OUR STATE, CITY, AND COUNTY MONIES IN INFRASTUCTURE REPAIR AND REBUILDING AND NOT SPORTS COMPLEXES OR PUTTING A CAP ON 405 THEN WE CAN MAKE A DIFFERENCE. I HAD TO GET THAT PET PEAVE OUT OF THE WAY. SORRY.

THE KEY TO THE ESA IS NOT TO ALLOW THE EXTREME FREEDOM OF EXTREME ENVIRONMENTALISTS RULE AND FOOL ALL OF US. WE MUST HAVE RESPONSIBLE USE OF OUR RESOURCES. ALL OF THESE PROBLEMS CAN BE SOLVED EASILY IF WE DEAL WITH THE HARD PROBLEMS QUICKLY AND NOT NINE YEARS FROM NOW LIKE THE MAYOR WANT REGARDING SEWAGE. THERE ARE WAY TO MANY PROGRAMS AND NO WAY TO ENFORCE THEM. UNTIL THE LAW HAS BACKBONE AND THE SUPPORT OF THE MAJORITY IT WILL FAIL.

WANT TO SAVE THE SALMON? GET RID OF GILL NETS IN THE RIVERS. WANT TO CLEAN UP THE WILLAMETTE? DON'T DUMP SEWAGE IN THE RIVER PERIOD! ECT.................................

JUST DON'T BLAME BUSH/NORTON YET. BAIT OF EGGS IS RIGHT FOLKS. VOICE YOUR CONCERN BUT LEAVE LEFT AND RIGHT OUT. STAY IN THE MIDDLE WHERE THE MAJORITY IS!

[FallRiverGuy]

I like to be able to read eveyones posts, but find it hard when a post is in all caps. I want to hear your opion bernie, but all caps is hard on the eyes and it also seems like it is yelling in writing.

A friendly suggestion. images/icons/smile.gif

[Mike H]

Bernie,

Here are a few of my rebuttals to your arguments... I view the ESA not as a management tool for all fish and wildlife but a management tool the threatened/endangered stuff. In that case, we DO need extreme measures to help these critters recover. Once they do recover, they are taken off the "list" and are no longer managed under the ESA. You obviously don't agree with the actions taken over the suckers in the Klamath Basin but they are in need of drastic measures for recovery. The farmers down there complain about their water being taken but they had a large part to do with the suckers' decline. As cruel as it sounds, it's payback. Maybe after the suckers have recovered, a management plan that works for both fish and farmers can be developed.

Also, you seem to have a quick solution for the salmon decline and the Willamette pollution problems.

Take out the gill nets and the salmon will be saved? What about all the rivers without gill nets? What about their salmon? I haven't seen a gill net on a lot of coastal coho streams but the coho are still in trouble. Removing gill nets will only solve a small problem on a few streams. It’s going to take a lot more than that to save the salmon.

Stop dumping sewage into the Willamette and the river will be clean? Again, sewage is only a small part of the problem. What about all the agricultural pesticides and timber pesticides, and sediments running into the river? See what I’m saying, it’s a lot more complex than you make it out to be..

Of course hatchery managers will tell you that all wild fish are just a crossbred hatchery fish. They don’t want to loose their jobs! The truly wild fish (and I believe there are lots of them) pose a direct threat to all hatcheries. Why don’t you ask a legit scientist about this issue and not a biased hatchery employee who’s trying to save his/her job.

Do you really believe that putting one person in control of whether or not imperiled species and their habitat will be protected under the ESA is the answer? Doesn’t sound like much of a Democracy to me. Actually it sounds downright stupid.

Mike H

[Commish_3]

About the only real endangered species left is the middle classed working man that wants to fish for fun, build a new home in the country or buy some reasonably priced fuel for his car. If you lock up the whole damned world in the name of conservation, all of these things will become a thing of the past. Wasn't that Columbia springer season a blast! Go for it GW.

[boater]

this is typical bush politics, is there any doubt that this is all for money. he probly has a campaign contributor that has spotted owls on his land and wants to log it, what better way to let him do it than to gut the esa, also i dont think drilling should be alowed in the alaskan preserve, this is the last frontier on "earth" that has not been screwed up and they have already done studys saying it would not be worth it. bernie, everything you posted makes no sense and you should realy do reaserch before you do any bashing.

[ 05-10-2001: Message edited by: boater ]

[Joe Schwab]

So the only one who can do any bashing here is Bigstew the way I read it. Well I'm not a liberal and I'm proud of it! They had 8 years to change things and did nothing. All ESA has done for Oregon and the Northwest is get the Feds involved in our fisheries and tell us what to do. Of course they offer little in the way of resources to do it. Corps of Engrs did their share of screwing up the Columbia but no one is responsible, right? Give the Bush people a chance and you might see some middle ground. Drilling in the ANWR is not the end of the world. The footprint is so small it is insignificant. How come all the lower 48ers who have never been there are opposed when the Alaskans are in favor? APCO spent 180 million building platforms that can be wheeled onto the frozen tundra, drilling and extracting and then leaving with hardly a trace. Horizontal drilling allows a large area to be tapped from one spot. Like him or not Bush has done more in the few months he's been in than Slick Willy did in 8 years.
No Bigstew I won't mention Monica here, you guys would really like to forget that and I won't bring it up, I promise. You are right, Clinton and Gore wouldn't think of drilling in the ANWR. They don't have the technology in Tennessee and Arkansas. Let's all go hug a tree now and sing Kumbaya!

[boater]

bigstew, you should close this thread, the responses are making me sick.

[DanS]

Capt. Hook,

Before you get too riled up, ask yourself the same question you posed. Why are the Alaskans for drilling? Let us know what you find out.

Since my head still hurts from last November, I think I'll just step away from the table now. Otherwise, guys just get offended. The net result is just bad feelings, and I don't think what gets said on Ifish has much to do with the choices our politicians make.

[SteelieSteve]

At least slick Willie had some entertainment value with his continuing domestic disharmony(soap opera). images/icons/grin.gif

[boater]

bill clinton did not inhale and i believe him, he was drunk, no wait, that was bush that was drunk.

[jawbreaker]

Lets face it, both Gore and Bush were terrible choices for President. That is why the election was so close. Nobody could decide who would do the least amount of damage. Gore who is a blatant lier but doesn't really care if everybody knows would raise taxes to 50% and spend it on more government and shut down fishing all together.....or Bush who couldn't manage his way out of a paper bag running three companies into the ground raising gas prices to salvage the gross mismanagement of his personal oil interests ...(hmmm what a coincidence). Ok, there I said it are we all happy now.

How about those Blazers images/icons/grin.gif
images/icons/rolleyes.gif

[fishhead5]

Who are the Blazers? images/icons/wink.gif

Fishhead5

[Predator Dawg]

Jaw breaker finally delivers the word of reason! My sentiments exactly. Its easy to point fingers but they were both losers. Either way, Joe Public gets stuck in the backside.

[CATCH AND EAT]

Fall River Guy,

And others that were offended by my all caps reply. I appologize. Next time I need to yell in print it will be as follows !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!I was in a hurry when I wrote the response and all caps is just easy for me. I will be a good boy from now on.

Mike H. Don't accuse those with an opposite opinion of being stupid!!!!!!!!!! Not cool. In fact those that work at the hatcheries are more informed than you seem to believe. The ideas I posed were examples of some....I say some of the things that we should target. You know the BIG offenders that are causing the most problems. If we peck away at the little things we may never achieve our goals. Example: you and I are little things as we are fisherpersons. We get one little fishing pole to extract personal fun and BBQ dinners right? We have very little impact on the run (other than slobs that leave line and trash on the bank. I hate that!!!). Gill netting in the ocean and rivers kill everything in their path. Is this a healthy environmental practice? Instead of netting in the ocean or river what about harvest at the hatcheries or installing wiers to seperate the fish? Yes some meat quality would be sacrificed for a few years during recovery but it would be worth it.

Tackle the big problems and the little ones will soon fall. Develop targets like sewage or nets (examples only Mike H.) and make it happen. The money is there. We seem to always find it when stadiums, light rail, trolly cars are involved but when it comes critical items like our growing sewage problems...well can we just try to wait another 9 years? Now that is stupid if I may say so.

The real point here folks is this. Give GW so lattitude. He has four years with his agenda. At that point if he is a screwup then vote him out of office. Vote in a liberal statesperson (just not Hillery please). Thanks for listening.

[boater]

http://www.users.qwest.net/~jetsled/CuriousGeorge.jpg