Fishing ethics

[Deleted User]

I just read Pete's post on the"Spring Chinook at Bonneville" thread about the sturgeon guide leaving carcasses all over the boat ramp and it made me wonder what some of your opinions are on "Angler ethics"
I'm talking about things done by bank or boat anglers that may be legal but in your mind is unethical. I was watching a news report tonight about the sea lions that follow the salmon up river. They talked to several bank fishermen and at the end of the report they showed the netting of a native spring Chinook. The net appeared to be the standard type of net with regular mesh net material. The fish was released and swam away briskly but should it have been netted at all?
How about buying salmon eggs that came from from gill-netted fish? or using a bait-diver when the majority of fish present will be natives? I thought this would stimulate some good posts from everyone. Please refrain from flaming if someone posts an opinion different from yours.
Stew

[ 04-03-2001: Message edited by: bigstew ]

[WheresMyBobber]

I'll take a shot at the things you mentioned.

I think anglers should take every effort NOT to net a fish they will have to release. I've been releasing unclipped chinook without netting them, and I'm fishing by myself! Every time except today, I was able to get my lure back without having to net the fish or tire the fish out to exhaustion. Today, a good size fish snapped my leader when I tried to get my pliers on the hook - oh well, it was my "lucky lure" but that's the way it goes. Also today, I lost a nice hatchery steelhead at the boat because I wanted to make dam sure it was a hatchery fish before I netted it. By the time I was able to determine that it was indeed a keeper, it did yet another arial summersault and came unhooked. Oh well.

Since I don't don't buy salmon eggs, I can't comment on that issue to much. But I don't think stopping buying their eggs is going to have any impact on the gillnet fishery.

Cleaning fish in the river is technically illegal. But if you use your head and go to an unused portion of the bank and throw the remains out in the current it doesn't create a problem, and the law probably won't be enforced.

Using a diver and bait usually does hook a fish deeper than lures, but they don't always get into the gills by any stretch of the imagination. Many times they are hooked in such a way that you can cut your leader and the fish will be fine. And who on this board who trolls herring or prawns regularly can HONESTLY say that they haven't hooked fish in the gills so that the fish bled to death? I caught a keeper chinook the other day with a prawn spinner that bled like a stuck pig! If I would have had to release it it would have been dead in minutes. Normally they get hooked in the mouth with those rigs, but it just goes to show that any type of bait or lure can cause a fatal injury to a fish.

How's that to get things started?



images/icons/tongue.gif

[Joe Schwab]

Bigstew, You raise some provocative questions. How about tossing the carcasses? No they should not be thrown on the ramp into deep water. Some people object to that also but what better place than from whence they came. To feed small fish and add nitrogen to the water. I have had people yell when I tossed salmon heads back into Tillamook Bay. Maybe they wanted them for crab bait? I saw the same scene at the Fishery several weeks ago. Some people are too lazy to even toss the carcasses in the water but leave them on the ground in front of the cleaning station. People who litter regardless of the substance have no ethics.

[Joe Schwab]

Just wanted to add my .02 on salmon eggs. Some of us are fortunate enough to catch a hen and cure our own eggs. What if we arent? Where do the bait dealers get their eggs. the only other legal source is ocean caught sport fish. How many sport fish have you caught in the ocean that had usable eggs lately? there would be no eggs available if the dealers could not purchase them from commercials.. Whether we like it or not, gillnetting is legal. Ask a gillnetter if it is ethical. I'm not sticking up for gillnetters but I think some people get confused about what they dont like and what they think is unethical. Yes we can boycott gillnetted products but who do we put out of business first? the small time bat dealers who are providing a product for sportfishermen. The eggs will be sold in either case probably if not to bait dealers then to overseas for consumption.

[Deleted User]

Okay how about this scenario then. Is buying eggs from tribal gillnetters that are selling out of the back of their pick-up in Hood River or up on the Olympic Peninsula ethical? Yes commercially sold eggs have got to come from somewhere but how about he ones that are bought at roadside. Do tribal gillnetters even sell eggs that way? I've never seen it so does it happen?

[SSPey]

if this was England (am I'm glad it ain't!) even the idea of using eggs to fish for salmon would be considered unethical and illegal (OK, now I'm ducking those punches images/icons/grin.gif)

[rcl187]

I don't see much of a problem buying salmon eggs. For those who don't think netting fish at $1.00 a pound is worth it this adds a little more profit money to the equation. Still doesn't justify anything but I like to see every part of the fish used and if this includes eggs then so be it. I think they could also find uses for heads/tails by selling them to cat and dog food makers. I also don't care much to see dead carcasses when I'm fishing but this does add some nutrients to the water and (by my reasoning) it makes a lot more sense to put the carcasses and entrails back in the water rather than tossing them in the trash to go to the land fill. As for the diver and bait I can't say much since I've never used one. You also mentioned netting salmon, this is personal choice and depends on location and condition. Not everybody has money to buy special nets but if done properly damage caused by mesh ones can be minimized. I'd much rather see a fish netted in knee deep water, left in the net while the hook is removed and then released instead of it being dragged six feet up a sandy bank.

[Backlash2]

Don't net unclipped fish! Get your Leather man ready...as your buddy delivers(swings) the fish to the side of the boat(just like when you net one)...in one motion, lean out, grab the leader, reach down with the pliers and latch on to a hook. One good jerk downward and the fish is on it's way. It is Simple!! Sure, it doesn't always work perfect(steelhead hooks are smaller targets), but if the fish freaks, let go of the leader and try again in a minute.
If you're buying eggs out of Indian netted fish alongside the road images/icons/mad.gif you might as well be buying native steelhead from them. too. Until they change the way they fish, they get NO money from me(Casino's, tabaaki, etc.)
As far as carcasses go, I think the biologists are figuring out that ANY part of the fish we can put back in the system is a good thing. I think it is only legal to gut fish while on the water? images/icons/confused.gif Filleting, or otherwise removing the head can only be done after you have landed(gone ashore)your catch. By all means, clean them at the takeout ramp. But take five extra seconds and toss that c*** out in the current. images/icons/wink.gif images/icons/grin.gif

[Pete]

Since my comment got Bigstew started, let me describe what I saw ... and didn't see. The upper ramp at the fishery is littered with sturgeon carcasses, dozens of them. They are on the bank, above high water, stinking, drawing flies. This vision prompted an inquiry of the ODFW fish checker parked at the top of the ramp. I did not see the carcasses being dumped, but heard that they were pitched there by a prominent guide after he cleaned the fish on the dock. Since my account is just hearsay I don't want to completely defame this guide.

How do I feel about this? I think it's attrocious. Many guides instill respect for the resource and help anglers learn ethical practices for protecting fish. I am surprised no one has addressed this situation. Do the operators of the Fishery really want their deteriorating facility to be the stink-hole of the Columbia? Does this alleged guide want a reputation as a thoughtless barbarian? Could this behavior be considered "wasting"? It appears the answer to all these questions is "Yes". That is truly unfortunate.

So what do I do? I'm going to call ODFW and possibly OSP this morning to complain about the lack of enforcement of game laws.

What will this accomplish? I don't know that the operators of the Fishery will change, they don't seem to recognize the problem that exists right under their noses. I don't think it will improve the behavior of this alleged perpetrator, but it might cause him to improve the appearance of his behavior.

[WaterDog]

How about this. Who has gone to Barbless hooks? I have started to pinch all of my barbs down. So I lose a few. Should make for easier releases for those finned ones. images/icons/smile.gif

[Big Willie]

Let's see here. I just saw this last Saturday drifting the middle Nestucca, I could not believe it...some ahole had a diver hanging off one of his rods. images/icons/mad.gif It was March 31st! It was a green Alumaweld, if your on this board knock that *hit off! I just started using single hooks on my plugs when fishing for nates, I think that is ethical. Its good for the cutthroats also. Netting a fish and THEN seeing if its clipped...not sure on that one. I don't do it personally, but it depends on the net.
-Gary

[NEUTRON]

I just don't agree with the diver/bait issue,
I feel it's personal opinion. Why do you think ODF&W allowed the fin clip fishery on the Willamette and what was the study they
did with Mr Tolman all about. Bottom line
we need to handle the fish with care so we can continue to enjoy the resource. No, I wasn't in the green alumaweld Gary. Liz Hamilton had an interesting point in STS this
issue.

[THE REEL HEY_YALL]

Morning, y'all.

I'm sick so I'll try to keep this short.

A question if I may: I didn't think you could clean your catch in Oregon at a boat ramp, etc. unless it was at a cleaning station? images/icons/confused.gif

Next point: Throw that carcass far enough away from shore. Leaving the carcasses on shore just attracts flies, and becomes a breeding ground for them. Flies carry diseases and are pretty nasty because they eat sh*t, literally.

I have not and will never buy my eggs from a tribal gillnet. I totally agree with backlash on that one. The rivers have been too low for the fish to get around, yet they still net. Ok, granted some got around, duh. Until they find a morally correct way to harvest fish, they get no money or love from me. If I don't have eggs on me, then F it, I won't use eggs. It's not like they rinsed the eggs anyways.

Wheresmybobber - how can you say not buying the eggs would not have an impact? Sure, not one person, but if we anglers all boycotted them, then I guess we'd just have to see. The only way it really wouldn't matter would be if they couldn't sell the eggs, then they would just throw them away....because they can.

Back to the carcasses (talking about the fish and not the tribal gillnetters), why not get the carcasses out further into the water...even if it becomes crab bait or bait buzzard food? I'd rather those bait stealing buzzards eat it and get full on that instead of my bait, plus no one likes to see carcasses...especially if you are trying to introduce women, children, and new anglers to the sport. That's like throwing deer and elk carcasses on the side of the road.

Capt. Hook -- There are so many different ways these tackle places have as a source of income and I do not see eggs as a main source of that income. So I really don't see how we would drive them out of business.

Well I hope y'all are glad I kept it short and sweet.

[Joe Schwab]

I have a hard time seeing an ethical problem buying salmon eggs from a legal source whether it be a bait shop or a tribal member selling out of his vehicle. Both are legal sources when the season is open. You can have all the usual philosophical hangups about tribal fishing and the damage it does to native runs, and you can boycott the products. But to attempt to coerce the angling public by calling it unethical to buy the eggs simply because they have not been sanitized through a wholesaler who in turn sells them to bait dealers and then to the ultimate consumer does not compute. I have no intention and never have had the urge to buy any products from the gillnet industry be it lower river or tribal. The few times I have had to purchase eggs were from licensed legitimate bait dealers. If I sat and pondered where the eggs came from originally my fishing time would have been severely curtailled.

[C&R]

I believe it is unethical to buy eggs what ever the source. The continued purchase drives and grows the market. Let's not fool ourselves, if we boycott the eggs whether or not they are taken legally or illegally there will be reduced market.

[Phish_on]

hold on - - are we talking CARCASSES or GUTS ?

To Webster and I, "carcass" is "a dead body: corpse exp: the dressed body of a meat animal"

I'm trying to figure out why a guide would CLEAN a STURGEON if he was going to leave it to rot ? ? ? please clarify.

[Dances]

I have a question how many of you fisherpeople. How many of you have fished in a Broodstock program?
I have and is it better to wear a fish out to the point of exhaustion or net it and tub it really fast. Either way you have to put your hands on the fish.
I personaly belive it is better to net the fish and tub it very quickly rather then tailing it because when you tail a fish you have to wear it out to the point that it almost turns belly up.
Remember that is just my Opinion
The whole point of the broodstock is to help the survival of the fish right and if you tail a fish there is more of a chance of it gettin away right. Kinda defeatin the purpose right.
just my $.02

[hen slayer]

i have stopped at the tribal net area in the summer to see how much the eggs sold for. they told me they were $5.00/lb. for that kind of money you can go buy the eggs already cured. i don't need to buy eggs but i thought that i would stop just to see how much.
the last time i checked the washington regs. it didn't say anything about gutting the fish but it did state that the heads must be attached while transporting.

[THE REEL HEY_YALL]

Hey Jr. Didn't I read that same post by someone else over on Bob's board? images/icons/wink.gif

Haven't seen ya in a while lil buddy, how's things goin?

[WheresMyBobber]

Hey_Yall

Just got in from fishing (lost one, nothing in the boat) and wanted to respond to the points you brought up.

As I said in my earlier post, it is illegal in Oregon to clean fish in the river. But this law is rarely enforced if people use common sense and courtesy. In my opinion the law is in place to deal with situations like the sturgeon carcasses or if too many people start cleaning fish in the same place making a mess. I've talked to the Oregon State Police and the ODFW about this, and have been told that as long as I clean my fish in an uncrowded place and throw the remains out in the current they will not enforce the law. In fact I've had them wait for me while I cleaned my fish in the river so they could take scale samples and check my tag. (my disclaimer - this is what I have been told - I can't be held responsible for anybody elses actions)

As for buying eggs from gillnetted fish - people should do what makes them feel good, but the reality is there is a market for those eggs regardless of whether the fishermen buy them or not. The Asian countries will buy all they can get their hands on, and have been doing so for quite some time. (why do you think the eggs they sell in the stores are so crappy - all the good ones are exported!) So no, I don't think a boycott by fishermen will have any impact.

I hope this doesn't come across wrong, it is a friendly reply from a fisherman who's been up since 4:45 this morning and came home with no fish. images/icons/smile.gif images/icons/smile.gif

[Pete]

Phish_on,
I used the word "carcass" and that's exactly what I meant. We're talking everything except the meat ... head to tail, bones, fins and skins all pitched up on the bank behind the dock, stinking and breeding flies.

I spoke to OSP and ODFW and they were anxious to find a direct witness to identify the culprit. I'm surprised the fish checker couldn't do that.

[myco-mike]

When we fished the Kenai River, everyone discarded the fish carcass and guts in the river. The last I heard the Kenai was the "worlds best salmon fishery" and held the world record for salmon.

We were told that the guides were required by law to throw what wasn't used back. (no sure if thats true)

If you throw it back, at least get it into the current.

[Dances]

Hey_Yall
That is my better half on bobs board and I thought that Danceswithfish sounded a little more creative. But I figured that I would post it over here too.

I have not been up to a whole lot just school and fishin every once in a while images/icons/smile.gif

[orsturgeon]

I saw that mess at the Fishery last Friday. It made us sick! That is definitely NOT legal or ethical. No better way to give fisherman a bad name. I hope that the state police get to talk to him.

OSP is not going to enforce this law unless it is blatant like this. Also ODFW does not enforce the law, they do take pertinent information and call the police who are paid to enforce the law. If you do complain about the lack of enforcement of fish and wildlife laws, please remember the horrendous budget cuts both ODFW and OSP have gone through the last 8 years.

I am ok with buying eggs - how the h*ll else am I going to get them, if I haven't caught a mature fish lately?

I am ok with divers and bait. I will say this - I keep every legal fish I catch, (and since I do not catch a lot of fish I use any legal method that works. I do not usually fish in areas where I do not have a chance to catch a fish I can kill.

Last but not least, I use a net so I do not have to tire the fish out before getting it to the boat in a condition that I can handle it.

[Amerman]

I believe the law about putting the fish carcass or guts back into the river was changed this year to encourage people to throw the guts back into the river. I agree that they should be back into the river(not on the bank). I believe there still is a law in Oregon about cleaning fish at a public boat landing though.

As for the egg issue I figure I should throw in my $.02. First let me say that there are a lot of places to buy eggs that are not from gillnet fish. None of the eggs I sell come from gillnet fish. This has never been a issue of morals as much as an issue of quality for me. I think that eggs from gillnet fish are of very low quality since the fish dies a slow death (without being bled) and the eggs are left in the carcass after the fish has died. Both of Oregon's and Washington's Department of Fish and Wildlife sell surplus salmon and steelhead eggs. These eggs are from the fish that come back to the hatcheries and are above and beyond what they need to meet egg take. I feel this is a great source of eggs as the money goes back to keep hatcheries open and these eggs are removed from the fish before or as it dies. Also all ocean and Alaska caught eggs can be bought from both sport and commercial fisherman. Yes, I have cured and used gillnet caught eggs on a number of occasions. That's how I know I don't like them. I do not agree with gillnetting, and I would avoid buying anything from them. That is my personal view though, and I would not tell someone else what they can or can't do.

As for netting or not netting a wild fish, I will say that if either is done wrong, it can kill fish, but if done right either way can be successful. It my view that playing a fish longer or putting more pressure on the hook, by grabbing the leader and stopping the fish, just so you don't have to net it can be worse for the fish. If done with care, either way can lead to more fish surviving being released. images/icons/grin.gif

[ 04-05-2001: Message edited by: Amerman ]

[Pete]

Here's the follow up ... A brave ODFW checker confronted the guide suspected of pitching the fish on the bank. He told the checker that Dave Hansen of OSP told him it was OK. The ODFW checker said, "Oh really? Let me call Dave on my cell phone." Dave reportedly told the checker, "I never said it was OK." A warning was given and the guide promised to stop throwing fish on the bank.

I bet this story develops further. I heard that a measurement of the carcasses indicated they were a little teency bit short.
Thanks for the info Pete. Please keep us posted on this - Stew

[ 04-06-2001: Message edited by: bigstew ]

[rhansme]

images/icons/confused.gif I hear a lot of complaints, but I see no one took any action. Why not go out and give those dead fish the heave ho into deeper water. Ok, the guide or whomever discarded them was unethical, lame, etc...Why not show him how it should be done???....


.............

Like my daddy always said.."if your gonna start young son you gotta stick it out!"

[orsturgeon]

Amerman, it is still in the Oregon regs. No carcass or part of the fish may be put in the water.