Why do herring need to spin to catch salmon???

[Gizmo Man]

OK, back by popular demand...A GIZ question!!!

Who can tell me why a herring needs to have a slow roll to catch salmon.

If I troll a flat fish, wiggle wart or hot shot and it rolls, I tune it to run straight or it finds its way to the bottom of the tackel box.

If you watch fish die in an aquarium, they usually are on their side kicking. If on the bottom they swim up and float back.

In several of the underwater films I have seen where schools of herring are attacked by fish and birds, none of the injured herring spin like a propellor the way we troll them.

So, why troll herring with a spin????? Why not pull it through the water like a hot shot or wiggle wart???

Giz..

[Joe Schwab]

Good question Giz. Sometimes they do, sometimes they dont. I was always under the impression herring had to roll in a lazy maner to catch fish. When you mooch you simply lift the bait and let it flutter to the bottom,one of the most productive ways to catch fish in the salt. Trolling is a whole nother world. Some like the roll, some like the spin. Some like to troll upstream, some downstream, some fast, some slow. When I got to Alaska I was amazed at the speed of the fleet when they trolled. Quite honestly I never did get up to their speed but still caught fish and so did they. I guess the best answer is find the method you are confident and comfortable with and keep the worm in the water. I personally like cut plug with a tight spin if the fish are moving fast upriver. It works for me. If you can find a way to make a herring dive like a quickfish or impart a flash without some type of spin or roll go with it. Good Luck

[Barnyard]

I believe the reason for the roll is so the herring looks crippled. This makes it an easier prey....

[OR Coast Range]

Related question:

What is the difference between herring "labels"? I have heard people refer to Red Label and Green Label, but I don't know what the difference is.

[This message has been edited by Oregon Fish Chaser (edited 03-08-2001).]

[Pilar]

I've noticed that when Herring school in a bait ball they will sometimes by ones or twos dart away from the bait ball in a spiral roll. I've seen this several times while diving here in Oregon and up in the Hood canal. Maybe that's what the roll is imitating??

The bend is your friend!

[THE REEL HEY_YALL]

Here's your answer Giz and it is correct, so no one needs to reply anymore http://www.ifish.net/forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif..lol j/k, but this is the correct, scientific answer:

When a salmon feeds on say a healthy herring, it slaps the fish with its tail, thus, stunning said herring. The herring falls, spinning/spiraling because of either being knocked out or crippled, etc. The fish turns back around and eats the herring.

By having your herring spin, a salmon will see that this fish is already crippled (maybe because it just got beeyotch slapped by another salmon) and eats it (competing against his buddy for food). Or, he may eat it from being hungry and seeing a crippled herring keeps him from having to slap the herring to stun it.

There's the answer to your $ 7 million question. http://www.ifish.net/forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[dawhunt]

Maybe it makes them dizzy and they get mad and confused and bite out of anger http://www.ifish.net/forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif http://www.ifish.net/forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

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Bob Dawson

[Bait O' Eggs]

OFC - I believe the only difference between the colors of herring is the size. The bait guys package them according to size and they color code them for us dummies. I think the yellow is the smallest, then reds then green then blue and I think the purple are the largest. I might not have all the colors or in the right sequence but it is close I believe. Should give you the right idea.

Great question Giz, not sure what he answer is.

I hope to get the camera under the water this weekend. I would like to put it in the cowlitz on the smelt, but that river runs real dirty and I dont think I would see much.

[Fish4Fun]

Oregon Fish Chaser,

The answer to your question is very simple. It has to do with the size of the bait. The most popular I think in most places would be "Green Label". When chasing big King's you can go up in size, thus being a different colored package. Just look at the color of the package next time you are able too.

Fish 4 Fun

[Jeffhead]

Good one Giz,
IMHO it's for a couple of reasons:
The roll will give off vibrations and flashes of light in the water getting their attention in addition to giving the effect of the wounded or injured baitfish.
Good luck and tight lines, Jeff http://www.ifish.net/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif http://www.ifish.net/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif

------------------
"Never be afraid to try something new."

Remember, amateurs built the ark.
Professionals built the Titanic.

[THE REEL HEY_YALL]

Well sure those are good answers if you don't like the scientific answer told to me by a biologist.....muh ha ha ha ha

[Gizmo Man]

According to the Charlie White underwater films, salmon do not slap herring being trolled prior to eating them. He has shown that the salmon appear to slap but are in fact just reading the bait with their lateral line. You can clearly see that the attacking salmon do not hit the bait with the tail.

White shows this repeatedly in one segment on his underwater film.

As for the way fish react when hit, when you are done with the herring and throw it in the water, the way it spirls to the bottom is generally the same when they are stunned when attacked in bail schools.

So again, when trolled in a straight line rolling fast or slow they not appear to represent a natural movement of a dieing herring.

Also consider when using Alvins in fast water, the guys say to tune them up. That is to bend them so they flutter from side to side, but not with too much arching.


Giz...

[rcl187]

I believe that by the roll provides more action to the bait and rather than something that is just pulled through the water the rolled herring adds a bit of turbulance and flash that can be sensed/seen from further away. The flash is important to fish that are below the bait and otherwise they might not notice it.

[Coot22]

you have that same film too Giz??? You are absolutely right. As for what the bilogist told you hey_yall, he was probably reitirratting facts that he learned from his professor in freshman biology! Giz is correct in saying that the fish is simply reading the bait with its lateral line. Each different role and speed of trolling puts out a different frequency and different fish react differently to each frequency. There are tuna trollers that have found a certain frequency that attracts tuna. So they put out an underwater beacon on their net bouys and this brings the tuna in the area right to the nets. If they found out this frequency for the salmon, it would be devestating if the gillnetters used it. This is why sometimes plugs work, sometimes spinners, plug cut herring spinning or rolling, or whole herring plug cut or whole. I am actually in the process of creating a "secret lure" using Pola Kai teaser heads and another technique that uses a shovel head to give the herring an action like a wiggle wart or a kwikfish. I will let you guys know when I have perfected these techniques!!! I sure hope they work because I have been tuning them for three years. They have worked in nehalem bay but I need to do a lot of work yet, wish me luck.

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"10% of the fishermen catch 90% of the fish"

[finclipped]

Can someone tell me where to get that Underwater tape? Is it for sale?
This is a totally new theory to me.

I have only noticed that Coho will tail slap a bait or read it with their lateral line or whatever. I think the chinook are more likely to just bite and go.

And I think bait fish spin while your trolling, because you can't make them swim straight. Try it, I bet you can't do it.

[THE REEL HEY_YALL]

thank you finclipped, i rest my case.

[Bait O' Eggs]

I have seen some of Gizmos charlie white video and it was facinating. One place to order the tapes is here
www.radiantlures.com/ (http://www.radiantlures.com/)

Run a search and you will probaby find more

[Jim]

They don't have to spin or roll...it falls once again into my line of reasoning of selling more stuff...this time bait. I fish only whole herring...a couple zips through the lip to keep the mouth shut and that bait will roll, dart, spin basically act very wounded...fished this way the bait last as long as you want it to...grass sheds off of it...etc...The Charlie White films are awesome and it is because of these that I changed my life long cut plug rule on herring as bait. There you go...you got my .02...oh, and answers are correct in regards to herring packaging by color...green most dominant...blue for kings...down size to red if you want.

Jim

[Hookset]

Very good question Giz. I don't have any data to back up my theory, just observations. Here goes...........

I really don't think the roll is really the important factor in catching salmon. Oh sure, the difference between a fast/slow and tight/large roll between one fisherperson and another contributes to increased catches for the person who can rig and roll salmon better then the others. But I believe the success people have with trolling is largely do to covering large areas of water. Since salmon are constantly moving (as with other fish), trolling allows anglers to cover water in search of the biters. The old saying that not all fish will bite is true. So trolling works just to locate the small percentage of fish that will bite. You have to locate fish before you can catch them. Rigging a herring to roll allows us to troll and cover more water.

I also agree that mooching will catch more salmon if you could just locate and target school fish. Just stands to reason that a herring mooched correctly mimicks a natural crippled bait better then a trolled bait.

As was already mentioned about Alaska, I suspect the commercials are covering more water faster just to find the biters.

Oh who knows, maybe I'm just nuts,

hook

[HOGTIDE]

Non-Rolling Examples:

Fishing the lower Columbia wing dams in the spring, the current is frequently very weak, at times. Yet, if you can get enough movement enabling your herring only to rock side to side like a porch swing, you can catch fish.

Fishing "livies" in B.C. waters, we literally plunk baits below the boat and allow them to swim in neutral, like a dog being held back by a leash. No spin! They readily bite.

When the bite was hot offshore, my father-in-law and his Westport buddies, all charter skippers, would fish herring "chunks" . Thats right, a chunk of bait the size of a fig newton and single 3/0 hook. They caught fish.

Spinning Reasons;

On the other hand, whenever I have seen large schools of bait slashed through by salmon, the wounded guys spin off in every direction, with their nose as the vortex of the spin; mimmicks the motion of the hand on a clock. And, they move very quickly spinning and forward. Might be that a fast troll and a quick cutplug is the 'best' immitation of this action.

Also, spinning bait provides 'flash' and more attraction power than a motionless bait. Especially important with limited amounts of predating salmon in the area.

[Up-4-Air]

With a mooching rig and a herring it's hard to make it do anything but roll. After the first person told the story of how he made the herring roll just right and then caught a chromer....from that point on everyone has to have the perfect roll. It's like dogs barking. Once the first dog barks, they all have to bark.

[Pilar]

Up 4 Air. I love it. I tested your barking dog theory last night. I loosed my cat hound on an imaginary cat in the back yard. She did the usual tear around the yard barking thing. While this was going on I rattled the garbage can lid against the front fence. This really got her going and sure enough another dog took up the alarm. Pretty soon all the dogs in my neighborhood got let out and all hell broke loose as they all exercised their lungs.

So if your dog starts barking for no reason at all you can blame it on me testing a theory found on the internet. I've got to get a life!!

The bend is your friend!!

[Fuzzybutt & Angel]

Those of you who said that salmon dont slap the bait with their tails are correct, they do sense the bait with their lateral lines, some Coho have been shown to do this more than fifty times before striking, most of the "lateral line rubs" were done with the mouth closed in fact. and yes, Chinook do this too. I own the charlie white video, and his research has blown away many salmon theories, such as salmon always take a herring by the head, which in fact is false, they ALWAYS take the bait from the tail.
and many other interesting facts from observing thousands of hours of underwater footage of salmon striking, baits, and lures. I highly recomend this video to anyone that fishes for salmon. my video also shows killer whales attacking and eating sea-lions right on the beach, great stuff!

Fuzzy
www.silentapproach.com (http://www.silentapproach.com)

[finclipped]

Sounds real interesting, my video is on its way. There were 3 video's and I wasn't sure which one to get. Any recommendations?

[Osprey]

Hey Fuzzy one of my favorite video's Orca's eating seals http://www.ifish.net/forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif
I've hooked several Salmon by the tail while trolling at Westport??????....Os

[RKB]

Pilar
You better hope that the fish start to show up or we'll have to have you commited.I feel that the only way to heal you is A long session at.THE CHURCH OF THE BENT ROD.HEAL THEE HEAL THEE!!!!!

[Jeffhead]

I think the one that Giz is talking about is called "Salmon Spectacular". I have it and it is a pretty amazing video. The thing that has stuck with me the most is what a lousy shot salmon really are. Injured looking bait is good, just don't make it to erratic or they will never hit it!!! By the way Charlies secret scent is bilge water mixed with motor oil. hehehe
Good luck and tight lines, Jeff http://www.ifish.net/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif http://www.ifish.net/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif

------------------
"Never be afraid to try something new."

Remember, amateurs built the ark.
Professionals built the Titanic.

[This message has been edited by Jeffhead (edited 03-09-2001).]

[THE REEL HEY_YALL]

Then I should totally disregard the footage I've seen of them slapping the hell out of the bait then? Maybe not all of them slap, but I'm sure they slap it if it aggravates them or if they want to eat it, and I am not surely going to rely on one guy's video footage because it butts heads (hee hee) with some of the footage I've seen and heard from those that are educated.

[Gizmo Man]

Good theories so far. I do not know the correct answer as to what triggers the bite.

When I first built my underwater camera 10 years ago I put it down in water with about 2 ' of visability at the surface. This was near bouy 6 at the lower end of M. Channel.

At about 8-9'deep there was just barely enough light to see the black clip I was using to hold my lures/bait. This clip was bouncing off the glass facing. (no lures attached at this time) At 12' it was a total blackout.

Guys near where I had the camera were using wrapped kfish and ff and where catching fish.

They were fishing in about 15' of water along the log jams about 300 yds upriver of 6.

Now, there is no flash from the herring.

Could it be that vibration and smell where the triggering factors?

Go to the Wind river and the primary lure is a flou. wiggle wart. No flash and no roll.

So do we need lures that make a lot of noise and give off smell?????? Do the tight left right wiggles the wart make + the bb's inside attract the fish and trigger them to hit...

What do you think.

Anyone care to share ideas....

When you guys/gals get tired of batting this one around I have another interesting question for you to ponder....

Giz....

[bathtub bob]

How many of you guys caught springers with herring heads in there belly . Everyone throws there heads overboard when cut pluging there bait caught one with 4 heads in its belly. And one had a #2 spinglow in its belly no hooks!

[Deleted User]

Great thread Giz. A lot of interesting and logical answers. I can't add anything to them. What I will let out here though is that I too have over the years developed lateral lines on both of my sides. They vibrate when I get close to food. Infact, they start buzzing and burning when I get within a few feet of ice cream or donuts. That's why I 'tale slap' donuts before I eat them Marty http://www.ifish.net/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif . ...

And Giz, for such a challenging and interesting posted question I'm going to ask you, or anyone, a challenging question: 'why do fools fall in love'?

RT

[finclipped]

Evidently this Charlie White fella had a stroke last fall and getting those video's is difficult. I went to the web site posted above and they are all out of the video's I wanted. If someone else knows where to get them I would appreciate it. Must be a decent tackle shop though, because he is sending me a free lure anyway.

[Gizmo Man]

h_y: The video that we have show salmon chasing a trolled bait or two as White would use one and also show trolling with 2 baits.


White showed many examples of the chinook coming close but not hitting the trolled bait when he was at a lodge and other
fishers asked him about the salmon crippling the bait before taking them.

Only sharing what was on the video from a guy who has spent thousand of hours filming them.

I have other videos that show salmon attacking bait balls and slashing and slapping the concentrated bait.

Giz...