Centerpin
02-22-2001, 09:24 AM
Here is an interesting little discussion going on www.sportfishingbc.com (http://www.sportfishingbc.com) discussion group. Check it out.
"While doing maintenance to this page (removing some undesirable content), some of the threads from "Logging Impact on Salmon Survival" were corrupted, so I have posted the complete thread below. I apologize for the inconvenience...webmaster, Sport Fishing BC
Loggings Impact on Salmon Survival: Fiends of the Earth Category: General Date: 2/20/01 Time: 3:09:57 PM Remote Name: 204.244.96.200
Comments
The introduction of new logging technology in the late 1970’s and early 1980’s may have helped salmon production more than we realize. The newfound ability to access timber through road building technology and the ability to harvest timber in a quick and efficient manner (grapple yarder) led to the rapid deforestation of many watersheds in the 1980’s. The removal of the riparian vegetation allowed for greater sunlight penetration into our stream courses. Increased sunlight generates more algae growth, increases water temperatures, and increases the overall production of the stream ecosystem. We saw an increased survival of coho and steelhead when combined with the increase of production with a relatively stable population of nitrogen and carbon from salmon carcasses and an increased input from pioneer plant species (alder, willow, salmonberry, etc). Steelhead and coho are highly dependant on nutrient input in the streams because their life cycle dictates that they have to overwinter (1-4 years) in their natal streams prior to smoltification. Juvenile survival is directly proportional to size. Once a juvenile hits a certain size its survival increases exponentially. Increased stream production allows juveniles to attain larger sizes faster through increased growth.The timber harvesting in the early 1980’s triggered an increase in production, which resulted in some great returns over the late 1980’s and early 1990’s. We start to see a decline in production once the harvested areas began to regenerate to a point where the sunlight was being blocked. This decline in stream production combined with poor ocean survival led to a further loss of nutrients (nitrogen and carbon) from salmon carcasses. New forest legislation asks for intact riparian areas to ensure stream shading, recruitment of large woody debris, and to protect the stream banks from potential harvesting impacts. The first species to show an impact were the coho and steelhead because of their dependence on stream production. Chum and pink were not impacted due to their use of the stream habitat strictly for incubation purposes.Perhaps it is time to head back into these second growth forests and begin to selectively log some of the riparian areas in order to get better light penetration to the stream in order to promote an increase in production.
Unfortunately.... Category: General Date: 2/21/01 Time: 12:27:48 AM Remote Name: 209.52.198.26
Comments
The greatest cause for fish decline, other than commercial and native over fishing, is strip logging the steep watersheds, which in turn causes a flood - drought syndrome. Floods wash away any of the possible "extra nutrients" that added sunlight might bring. Then droughts from there not being enough trees to hold the water in the soil leave little water for resident fish. It has been determined that a river or stream's fish population is directly proportional to the number of year-round holding lies. That means the log jambs and large woody debris that Fed Fisheries kept pulling out of rivers were where the fish were all holding. Any river angler knew this, but when I tried to explain this to the biologists at the time (1960's) I was told I was too young to understand.
Re: Unfortunately.... Category: General Date: 2/21/01 Time: 1:30:42 AM Remote Name: 206.87.35.118
Comments In my childhood, my dad and I travelled on logging roads out of Port Alberni many times with the dogs....we saw some fish at remote rivers....they liked to stay behind fallen trees and some little tree jams that don't block on their paths to the ocean. I saw some little fish staying under shade behind fallen trees. Long time ago, I fished for cuttroat...i casted few times to the small log jams or fallen trees....caught some nice small cuttroats and released them during very hot summer evening near Great Central Lake. Cuttroats are very beautiful fish.
From: Fiends of the Earth Category: General Date: 2/21/01 Time: 9:04:55 AM Remote Name: 204.244.96.206
Comments I believe you have something there Ian. Strip mining the upper elevation forests has a huge impact on the downstream reaches of the watershed. Perhaps we could get a happy medium where the upper drainages were rehabilitated to a point where they can buffer stream flows smoothing out the highs and lows. Provide a certain amount of cooling to the water so the temperature does not creep up towards detrimental temperatures but is still warm enough to keep production high. We could then work to keep enough openings to allow sunlight penetration and promote portions of deciduous growthin the middle to lower reaches. Perhaps retain enough second growth for future LWD recruitment. This way we could have a diverse and productive stream ecosystem. Not to mention a forest harvesting industry that can return a greater profit for taxpayers and does not have to work on steep unstable slopes.
Log it, burn it, pave it, paint it green, SuperNatural BC!: jsf61 Category: General Date: 2/21/01 Time: 9:43:15 AM Remote Name: 208.181.7.67
Comments
Ian, you forgot to add in the siltation caused by the flooding, (affecting egg survival and spawning energy), -woody debris scouring of the bottom, (an old log pushed by the current is as effective as a bulldozer blade), -increased stream temp and rapid swings of stream temp, due to the loss of cover, stressing smolts,.... - landslides from lousy road building and road maintenece, - loss of stream flow modulation due to the loss uf "upholding" effect from mature cover, (trees suck up water and release it slowly, a mature forest stream's water level raises and lowers more gradullaly than a cut forests). - leaching into the streams of pesticides, herbicides and waste from the subsequent "mono culture" tree farm. Shall I go on? Further to this, is if the once cut forest of the 50's, 60's and 70's were worth economically logging, companies would be in there cutting today. If you want to see a beautifully cut forest, take the Chehalis Forest Service road and just past the turn off for the Correction's Camp, (past the power lines), park, get out and walk around. This forest was cut by Johnson Brothers in the late 90's, using "skyhooking". They marked the best trees in the cut,..... swung a "chain" around the best tree's, giving them a growing radius to better nurture the best trees,..... use an overhead cable system to cut and lift out all of the less than best trees,.... then used chippers to mulch up the remaining woody debris. Other than for the small diameter of the trees, when I walk around inside the cut block, it reminds me of the Ancient Forests, (Carhmana, Cayoose) that whole intact ground cover/cathederal effect. Unfortunately, the timber yeild was marginal for Johnson Brothers,.... but in a decade or so,.... wow!.
From: Eli Lampson Category: General Date: 2/21/01 Time: 1:50:01 PM Remote Name: 137.82.201.84
Comments Most of you may not know of the area, but the west side of Takla Lake, in an Area called Baptise and Sakeniche logging has been going on for decades. This is where the Sockeye that head up as part of the Stuart Run end up, in Takla Lake and these tributaries. Last fall these creeks where packed with sockey and fishing on the middle River was excellent for resident trout (I hit a 9 lber on the egg fly). A lengthy and well-funded study was done and I saw it presented in a hydrology forum at UBC, about the effects of clearcutting parts of watersheds in these areas (No area can be clearcut all at once, there are green-up, adjacency and watershed aspects of the Forest Practices Code that prevent this, so there will only ever be a portion of a watershed cut at one time). The results showed that increased temperatures did increase survivial of the sockey eggs and fry, as well as some chinooks (Rugged, well- travelled beasts). Flashiness of watersheds comes mostly from two things, road construction and removal of vegetation. The vegetation issue stops in a few years, but old logging roads short-circuit drainages, the best thing is mandatory deactivation and rehabilitation of logging roads after harvest. The clearcut itself is a fairly benign activity, it is extensive road building and skidder trails that really effect hydrology. (The effects of skidders on wet ground is obvious, yet on dry or frozen ground it is almost like they where never there, common sense is the solution here) The Chehalis was mentioned, that watershed has had extensive clearcutting, partial cutting and burning for a long time (My guess would be close to a century). There is still plenty of logging that goes on there, yet nothing has the appearance of being "stripped". Kudos to Canfor and the company that the other fellow mentioned for their forestry practices that appear to be compatible with a great salmon river. The Chehalis has continued to support a very healthy run of wild summer and winter steelhead. The point is that it is false to say that logging practices kill salmon directly, just as it is false to say that careless and irresponsible forestry and road building doesn't have an impact, of course it does. Each river system and watershed must be looked at individually. In my experience, a little care with logging really goes a long way. I support forest buffers around streams and retention of LWD in riparian areas, and most companies that log do this, but you still get the odd dinosaur that doesn't abide by reccomendations made in the code. As recreational anglers, why don't we access some of that large purse of FRBC money as Salmonid and recreational fishing oppurtunity enhancement money, talk to your local company forester, I bet they would be delighted, to see that money not get lost in government super ferry-fiascos, and put to good use, what it was intended for and that is making foresty practices in BC more popular with the public and have less of an impact.
From: unlawful biding mackeral Category: General Date: 2/21/01 Time: 2:32:10 PM Remote Name: 206.87.35.111
Comments
Yeah, one of the tree license farms that have sockeye spawning streams that have plenty of second growth trees around on the west side of island, this area once to be logged many years ago and one part of this land was burned down in forest fire thirty years ago. DFO and forestry workers have done their work around this steam to ensure that stream was not damaged, if damage was done, they fix it properly. After all, in many years, we have good returns of sockeyes in this stream behind second growth trees. Plus forestry workers and loggers love sockeye fishing on saltwater in their local areas. One thing, we are discouraged about aggressive commerical overfishing meaning that our local stream will be empty and will not recover for long time. I respect forestry workers who work real hard to keep our stream safe and focus on tree planting or logging so they can put food on tables. Any kind of good managements are important unless they have fundings first.
From: Bill Luscombe Category: General Date: 2/21/01 Time: 3:08:26 PM Remote Name: 142.22.16.53
Comments
Well, unless you are about 10 years old or less, the fact that you are even living under the conditions you now enjoy is dur to the forest industry and the employment and taxes it brought to the province. Back in the 50's - 80's the industry did what it thought was best. To throw stones now at decades old practices is unproductive. Everyone lives and learns... well, most of us anyway. Just as a point though... most of the companies' harvests are from the stands planted in the 40's and 50's now. Take a drive down the Cowichan Highway... when you are done I'll show you a photograph taken in 1945 of the fire that ripped through from Lake Cowichan to Duncan leaving nothing but ashes. Then you can tell me that planting doesn't happen and that forests don't grow back and animals don't return and we are all doomed, etc. I'm afraid you've been listening to teh likes of Greenpeace too much and not researching everything for yourself. Don't believe either the industry or the greenies... research and learn and then decide what happened and why and what is happening today and why and what it means to the forests, the fish, the economy and ultimately you and your livelihood and taxation levels in this province. For every action there are many reactions. Nothing is simple, especially when you discuss issues and shutdowns of the #1 industry in the province.
From: Dave Desjarlais(StaveDave) Category: General Date: 2/21/01 Time: 4:25:21 PM Remote Name: 207.102.215.39
Comments
When I was young, growing up in Coquitlam, there used to be many small streams which had water flows all year, even in the hot summer months. These creeks were in deep ravines which are scattered throughout Coquitlam,riparian areas(trees) created much needed shade from the sun as there were huge trees which created quite a canopy. As Coquitlam is basically a hill, these creeks ran down to the Fraser marshes, which used to lie parrellel to the river.They used to hold juvenile Cutthroat, Steelhead, Chum and Coho. As kids we would catch these fish thinking they were 'Brook Trout' we had no idea they were juvenile salmonoids.We used to observe the adluts spawning as well. There used to be hundreds of these fish hiding under logs, in log jams,in under cut banks, etc. The marshes connected these creeks to the Fraser, these marshes are now filled and strip malls are in their place now.This was perfect juvenile rearing habitat, no more though. Now, when I visit Coquitlam, most of these creeks are filled in, or the ones which remain are a just a trickle in dry spells or a torrent during rains. This isn't encouraginging, though I did inspect one of these streams recently and observed juvenile fish(either trout or salmon). I was amazed, right in a commercial area of Coquitlam, under a little bridge which provided cover for these 'survivors',they were making their stand. Maybe there is hope. Dave. "
www.sportfishingbc.com (http://www.sportfishingbc.com) ****Logging Impact on Salmon Survival****
------------------
Support BC Steelhead Recovery... check out http://www.bcfff.bc.ca/
My Photos... http://msnhomepages.talkcity.com/RallyRd/centerpin/
"While doing maintenance to this page (removing some undesirable content), some of the threads from "Logging Impact on Salmon Survival" were corrupted, so I have posted the complete thread below. I apologize for the inconvenience...webmaster, Sport Fishing BC
Loggings Impact on Salmon Survival: Fiends of the Earth Category: General Date: 2/20/01 Time: 3:09:57 PM Remote Name: 204.244.96.200
Comments
The introduction of new logging technology in the late 1970’s and early 1980’s may have helped salmon production more than we realize. The newfound ability to access timber through road building technology and the ability to harvest timber in a quick and efficient manner (grapple yarder) led to the rapid deforestation of many watersheds in the 1980’s. The removal of the riparian vegetation allowed for greater sunlight penetration into our stream courses. Increased sunlight generates more algae growth, increases water temperatures, and increases the overall production of the stream ecosystem. We saw an increased survival of coho and steelhead when combined with the increase of production with a relatively stable population of nitrogen and carbon from salmon carcasses and an increased input from pioneer plant species (alder, willow, salmonberry, etc). Steelhead and coho are highly dependant on nutrient input in the streams because their life cycle dictates that they have to overwinter (1-4 years) in their natal streams prior to smoltification. Juvenile survival is directly proportional to size. Once a juvenile hits a certain size its survival increases exponentially. Increased stream production allows juveniles to attain larger sizes faster through increased growth.The timber harvesting in the early 1980’s triggered an increase in production, which resulted in some great returns over the late 1980’s and early 1990’s. We start to see a decline in production once the harvested areas began to regenerate to a point where the sunlight was being blocked. This decline in stream production combined with poor ocean survival led to a further loss of nutrients (nitrogen and carbon) from salmon carcasses. New forest legislation asks for intact riparian areas to ensure stream shading, recruitment of large woody debris, and to protect the stream banks from potential harvesting impacts. The first species to show an impact were the coho and steelhead because of their dependence on stream production. Chum and pink were not impacted due to their use of the stream habitat strictly for incubation purposes.Perhaps it is time to head back into these second growth forests and begin to selectively log some of the riparian areas in order to get better light penetration to the stream in order to promote an increase in production.
Unfortunately.... Category: General Date: 2/21/01 Time: 12:27:48 AM Remote Name: 209.52.198.26
Comments
The greatest cause for fish decline, other than commercial and native over fishing, is strip logging the steep watersheds, which in turn causes a flood - drought syndrome. Floods wash away any of the possible "extra nutrients" that added sunlight might bring. Then droughts from there not being enough trees to hold the water in the soil leave little water for resident fish. It has been determined that a river or stream's fish population is directly proportional to the number of year-round holding lies. That means the log jambs and large woody debris that Fed Fisheries kept pulling out of rivers were where the fish were all holding. Any river angler knew this, but when I tried to explain this to the biologists at the time (1960's) I was told I was too young to understand.
Re: Unfortunately.... Category: General Date: 2/21/01 Time: 1:30:42 AM Remote Name: 206.87.35.118
Comments In my childhood, my dad and I travelled on logging roads out of Port Alberni many times with the dogs....we saw some fish at remote rivers....they liked to stay behind fallen trees and some little tree jams that don't block on their paths to the ocean. I saw some little fish staying under shade behind fallen trees. Long time ago, I fished for cuttroat...i casted few times to the small log jams or fallen trees....caught some nice small cuttroats and released them during very hot summer evening near Great Central Lake. Cuttroats are very beautiful fish.
From: Fiends of the Earth Category: General Date: 2/21/01 Time: 9:04:55 AM Remote Name: 204.244.96.206
Comments I believe you have something there Ian. Strip mining the upper elevation forests has a huge impact on the downstream reaches of the watershed. Perhaps we could get a happy medium where the upper drainages were rehabilitated to a point where they can buffer stream flows smoothing out the highs and lows. Provide a certain amount of cooling to the water so the temperature does not creep up towards detrimental temperatures but is still warm enough to keep production high. We could then work to keep enough openings to allow sunlight penetration and promote portions of deciduous growthin the middle to lower reaches. Perhaps retain enough second growth for future LWD recruitment. This way we could have a diverse and productive stream ecosystem. Not to mention a forest harvesting industry that can return a greater profit for taxpayers and does not have to work on steep unstable slopes.
Log it, burn it, pave it, paint it green, SuperNatural BC!: jsf61 Category: General Date: 2/21/01 Time: 9:43:15 AM Remote Name: 208.181.7.67
Comments
Ian, you forgot to add in the siltation caused by the flooding, (affecting egg survival and spawning energy), -woody debris scouring of the bottom, (an old log pushed by the current is as effective as a bulldozer blade), -increased stream temp and rapid swings of stream temp, due to the loss of cover, stressing smolts,.... - landslides from lousy road building and road maintenece, - loss of stream flow modulation due to the loss uf "upholding" effect from mature cover, (trees suck up water and release it slowly, a mature forest stream's water level raises and lowers more gradullaly than a cut forests). - leaching into the streams of pesticides, herbicides and waste from the subsequent "mono culture" tree farm. Shall I go on? Further to this, is if the once cut forest of the 50's, 60's and 70's were worth economically logging, companies would be in there cutting today. If you want to see a beautifully cut forest, take the Chehalis Forest Service road and just past the turn off for the Correction's Camp, (past the power lines), park, get out and walk around. This forest was cut by Johnson Brothers in the late 90's, using "skyhooking". They marked the best trees in the cut,..... swung a "chain" around the best tree's, giving them a growing radius to better nurture the best trees,..... use an overhead cable system to cut and lift out all of the less than best trees,.... then used chippers to mulch up the remaining woody debris. Other than for the small diameter of the trees, when I walk around inside the cut block, it reminds me of the Ancient Forests, (Carhmana, Cayoose) that whole intact ground cover/cathederal effect. Unfortunately, the timber yeild was marginal for Johnson Brothers,.... but in a decade or so,.... wow!.
From: Eli Lampson Category: General Date: 2/21/01 Time: 1:50:01 PM Remote Name: 137.82.201.84
Comments Most of you may not know of the area, but the west side of Takla Lake, in an Area called Baptise and Sakeniche logging has been going on for decades. This is where the Sockeye that head up as part of the Stuart Run end up, in Takla Lake and these tributaries. Last fall these creeks where packed with sockey and fishing on the middle River was excellent for resident trout (I hit a 9 lber on the egg fly). A lengthy and well-funded study was done and I saw it presented in a hydrology forum at UBC, about the effects of clearcutting parts of watersheds in these areas (No area can be clearcut all at once, there are green-up, adjacency and watershed aspects of the Forest Practices Code that prevent this, so there will only ever be a portion of a watershed cut at one time). The results showed that increased temperatures did increase survivial of the sockey eggs and fry, as well as some chinooks (Rugged, well- travelled beasts). Flashiness of watersheds comes mostly from two things, road construction and removal of vegetation. The vegetation issue stops in a few years, but old logging roads short-circuit drainages, the best thing is mandatory deactivation and rehabilitation of logging roads after harvest. The clearcut itself is a fairly benign activity, it is extensive road building and skidder trails that really effect hydrology. (The effects of skidders on wet ground is obvious, yet on dry or frozen ground it is almost like they where never there, common sense is the solution here) The Chehalis was mentioned, that watershed has had extensive clearcutting, partial cutting and burning for a long time (My guess would be close to a century). There is still plenty of logging that goes on there, yet nothing has the appearance of being "stripped". Kudos to Canfor and the company that the other fellow mentioned for their forestry practices that appear to be compatible with a great salmon river. The Chehalis has continued to support a very healthy run of wild summer and winter steelhead. The point is that it is false to say that logging practices kill salmon directly, just as it is false to say that careless and irresponsible forestry and road building doesn't have an impact, of course it does. Each river system and watershed must be looked at individually. In my experience, a little care with logging really goes a long way. I support forest buffers around streams and retention of LWD in riparian areas, and most companies that log do this, but you still get the odd dinosaur that doesn't abide by reccomendations made in the code. As recreational anglers, why don't we access some of that large purse of FRBC money as Salmonid and recreational fishing oppurtunity enhancement money, talk to your local company forester, I bet they would be delighted, to see that money not get lost in government super ferry-fiascos, and put to good use, what it was intended for and that is making foresty practices in BC more popular with the public and have less of an impact.
From: unlawful biding mackeral Category: General Date: 2/21/01 Time: 2:32:10 PM Remote Name: 206.87.35.111
Comments
Yeah, one of the tree license farms that have sockeye spawning streams that have plenty of second growth trees around on the west side of island, this area once to be logged many years ago and one part of this land was burned down in forest fire thirty years ago. DFO and forestry workers have done their work around this steam to ensure that stream was not damaged, if damage was done, they fix it properly. After all, in many years, we have good returns of sockeyes in this stream behind second growth trees. Plus forestry workers and loggers love sockeye fishing on saltwater in their local areas. One thing, we are discouraged about aggressive commerical overfishing meaning that our local stream will be empty and will not recover for long time. I respect forestry workers who work real hard to keep our stream safe and focus on tree planting or logging so they can put food on tables. Any kind of good managements are important unless they have fundings first.
From: Bill Luscombe Category: General Date: 2/21/01 Time: 3:08:26 PM Remote Name: 142.22.16.53
Comments
Well, unless you are about 10 years old or less, the fact that you are even living under the conditions you now enjoy is dur to the forest industry and the employment and taxes it brought to the province. Back in the 50's - 80's the industry did what it thought was best. To throw stones now at decades old practices is unproductive. Everyone lives and learns... well, most of us anyway. Just as a point though... most of the companies' harvests are from the stands planted in the 40's and 50's now. Take a drive down the Cowichan Highway... when you are done I'll show you a photograph taken in 1945 of the fire that ripped through from Lake Cowichan to Duncan leaving nothing but ashes. Then you can tell me that planting doesn't happen and that forests don't grow back and animals don't return and we are all doomed, etc. I'm afraid you've been listening to teh likes of Greenpeace too much and not researching everything for yourself. Don't believe either the industry or the greenies... research and learn and then decide what happened and why and what is happening today and why and what it means to the forests, the fish, the economy and ultimately you and your livelihood and taxation levels in this province. For every action there are many reactions. Nothing is simple, especially when you discuss issues and shutdowns of the #1 industry in the province.
From: Dave Desjarlais(StaveDave) Category: General Date: 2/21/01 Time: 4:25:21 PM Remote Name: 207.102.215.39
Comments
When I was young, growing up in Coquitlam, there used to be many small streams which had water flows all year, even in the hot summer months. These creeks were in deep ravines which are scattered throughout Coquitlam,riparian areas(trees) created much needed shade from the sun as there were huge trees which created quite a canopy. As Coquitlam is basically a hill, these creeks ran down to the Fraser marshes, which used to lie parrellel to the river.They used to hold juvenile Cutthroat, Steelhead, Chum and Coho. As kids we would catch these fish thinking they were 'Brook Trout' we had no idea they were juvenile salmonoids.We used to observe the adluts spawning as well. There used to be hundreds of these fish hiding under logs, in log jams,in under cut banks, etc. The marshes connected these creeks to the Fraser, these marshes are now filled and strip malls are in their place now.This was perfect juvenile rearing habitat, no more though. Now, when I visit Coquitlam, most of these creeks are filled in, or the ones which remain are a just a trickle in dry spells or a torrent during rains. This isn't encouraginging, though I did inspect one of these streams recently and observed juvenile fish(either trout or salmon). I was amazed, right in a commercial area of Coquitlam, under a little bridge which provided cover for these 'survivors',they were making their stand. Maybe there is hope. Dave. "
www.sportfishingbc.com (http://www.sportfishingbc.com) ****Logging Impact on Salmon Survival****
------------------
Support BC Steelhead Recovery... check out http://www.bcfff.bc.ca/
My Photos... http://msnhomepages.talkcity.com/RallyRd/centerpin/