seal killin'

[Deleted User]

I am down with takin out those seals that are taking out my salmon that I should be catching because they eat the ones that are supposed to be eating my bait.They will be punished indefinetly I will get my vengence on the seals. THEIR DAYS ARE NUMBERED!!!

[DF]

hmmmm. Being how seals were here first and there supossed to eat the salmon you know the whole food chain thing I dont think thats a good idea..

[SAUKit2em]

Me no like seals.....seals bad.

[NW_rvrbank_Babe]

But they are so cute! NOT!!!!!
Down with them!

[scooby]

Yeah, they are real cute...until you find them in the upper tidewater reaches of a small coastal stream during the fall salmon run munchin away on some fresh eggs, or until you go out in the bay and see how many are there...

scooby

[Deleted User]

The proliferation of sea lions are a result of the Marine Mammals Protection Act (I think that's what it is called) that and the reduction in numbers of predators that feed on seals has caused this over population. Someone told me the Coast Guard actually chases Orcas out of Tillamook Bay and if you've spent any time on T-Bay you know there is a bunch of seals in there. There needs to be some kind of controlled harvest of Pacific coast sea lions or it's just one more hurdle the native and hatchery runs of fish face! With offshore netting,poor logging practices, gillnets and loss of habitat the seals just presents another obstacle for wild runs to overcome in order to spawn. How many of you have caught salmon or steelhead with seal marks on them? Many seals make their way up to Willamette Falls in Oregon City following the spring chinook and even as far as Bonneville dam.

[This message has been edited by bigstew (edited 02-22-2001).]

[Deleted User]

Dustin,

While I'm sure you are an intelligent and nice guy, you've used a pet peave phrase of "they were here first". So I am going to ask you some questions. Are you sure the seal's ancestor's evolved on Earth before human's ancestors did? And even if they did, what the heck does that have to do with anything now?!? Nothing, in my opinion. In fact I bet most guys that catch steelhead were born before most seals that catch steelhead were born; thus here first. The same principle applies to humans too. Some human's ancestors walked pieces of land before other human's ancestors walked a piece of land. This has always applied all over Earth since the beginnings of the human species. We all evolved from the same original sources. I wish the hollow "they were here first" thing would go away. Being there first sometimes counts for birds after a worm, fishermen in a hole, and at the express lane at the grocery store. It has nothing to do with the artificially caused overpopulation of sea-lions and seals. This has caused another out of balance eco-system. I'm not as concerned about their eating hatchery fish (although I don't like that either) as I am about their eating dwindling stocks of native fish. Like some non-Indian and Indian fishers, the seals don't much care whether a fish is a brat or a nate. It's money or food to them. If there were a market for seal meat the side products, the Indians could likely by-pass the protection act 'Stew mentioned above. That would take care of the improper seal imbalance pretty quickly. Regardless, I think it is high time to open up hunts on over-populations of sea-lions and seals. By all accounts they take a large toll on salmon and steelhead populations; way out of historical or healthy proportion for quite some time now! The challenge will be getting by the cute seal face pictures that PETA types put up when the F&G Dept.s &/or legislature or ballots deal with this issue again. And the old pics of baby seals being clubbed to death up in the northern artic (which wouldn't be done this time - it would be with quick bullets as with bear hunts). What the 'challenged' thinkers don't understand is that there is not a cute caring puppy behind a cute seal face; there is a wild killing predator behind that cute face. ....

And Dustin, those darn seals should be taught that "the fish were here first", so they shouldn't be killing them. And plankton were here before the fish, so the smolts shouldn't be eating it? http://www.ifish.net/forum/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif .

RT



[This message has been edited by RT (edited 02-22-2001).]

[Penn]

RT, you are the man. Nice job

[willierower]

Yea, what RT said.

[Osprey]

Every year seals follow fish up the Nisqually and every year these same seals end up doing the "back stroke" back down the river http://www.ifish.net/forum/images/graemlins/wink.gifsomeones got the right idea.....I say blast em http://www.ifish.net/forum/images/graemlins/shocked.gif
they are semi intelligent mammals after a few of their relatives were seen as floating bloated carcusses....you'd hope they'd get the idea http://www.ifish.net/forum/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif.....my.02...Os

[PeterMac]

They have stolen enough of my crab bait, I say we use them for crab bait!!!

[DK]

dustin you may be right about them being here first,but you did mention the food chain and they are not at the top, blast em

[SpinnerMan]

I agree with Bigstew:

Interesting that there has been no government study about how this act has impacted the salmon runs!

Just studies on other things that certain groups have on their agenda.

Wonder what the results would be?

SM

[Gooey - Bob]

RT you finley have bumped your head one to many times Gooey-Bob

[Jellyhead]

Here's a link for all you seal haters.
http://www.newgrounds.com/seals

It's all about how to club seals! If you like those furry things, don't go to that page!

Have fun,

Aaron

[Bait O' Eggs]

I am a firm believer we need to do a study on the seals. I say we fin clip them and put a tooth pick in them to keep track of them. We clip off all the fins, and point them towards Orcas island. When they can only swim in a straight line the Killer whales should have a nice snack. Kind of like an Horsdoeuvre. http://www.ifish.net/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[meyersbilly]

Here’s a highly ethical… legal… well lets just say a down right enjoyable way of fixing a few seals and sea lions. On the Coast we lose countless numbers of fish to seals and sea lions so a few of us have started a catch and release seal/sea lion fishery. The clients love it and it’s a good way to teach Mr Wiskers who the boss is. Here’s the technique:

Rig up a good stout pole with an unlimited supply of 40-pound test. Troll around for a few minutes/hours catching salmon, eating, drinking, being merry and when you feel Mr. Wiskers take hold of your salmon start enjoying yourself. Tighten up on him good and tight… spark up the big motor and wherever he goes stay right on top of him. It’s a lot of hard lefts followed by some hard rights and a few deep runs followed by a lot of bobbing and weaving. Try to keep that boat right on top of that bad boy and don’t let him get to the surface. Don’t forget to keep lots of pressure on him… yahooo.

Panicked and exhausted, Mr. Whiskers has only one option and that’s to stay close to the surface. Sore aching muscles and lactic acid build up will lay Mr. Whiskers right beside the boat for a quick and easy release. Make sure he doesn’t take a breath before you release him.

I almost forgot… If you’re really lucky you may even get hooked up with a leaper. Leapers are the ones that usually take the hook deep. They are those special adrenaline rush, heart pounding experiences that keep people coming back for more time and time again. 250-1000 pounds of cart wheeling and tail walking blubber is a spectacle in itself. For those of you who watched Free Willie jump over the breakwater, that large killer whale had nothing on the leaping ability of our coastal seals and sea lions.

Now if I could only figure out the proper angles for that ever so slow cut-plug role.

[CZ]

If fishing, not catching, is truly what we all enjoy, than why this overwhelming need to go and kill seals that are after the same fish we are. Seems self-centered and greedy to me. If killing 20 seals this year insures you catch one extra fish next year, is that really worth it?

True, they may not have been here first, but they have been predators of salmon and steelhead a helluva lot longer than man. And I would be willing to guess they have never been solely responsible for the extinction of a run of salmon or steelhead - we can't say the same.

I love fishing, but when I have to go and kill other natural predators just so that I can catch one or two more, something's wrong.

My two cents.

[Fuzzybutt & Angel]

Very Interesting topic,the California sea-lion was the very creature that completely wiped out a whole gene pool of native steelhead here in W.A. the state DID study the problem, they studied, and studied, and they studied those wild steelhead right into extinction! they just couldnt figure out what was happening to those fish HA! you all have probably heard of Herchel, well he and his buddies were the demise of a complete native run,they even shipped the "problem animal"(when it was over a dozen) back to California, and he was back at the ballard locks munching away in a few days. there are no more steelhead in the samammish river. wiped out, kaput.
seals and sea-lions arent dumb, if we had just shot them on sight, they wouldnt have kept frequenting that area. even now when there is a large run of salmon going through the locks, a high percentage have visable seal bites on them. RT was right, the whole ecosystem has been thrown out of whack by overpopulation of pinapeds, and something HAS to be done!

[Bounty Hunter]

Hello everyone, I've previously been a lurker, but I had to comment on this one. Too bad my first post is going to go against the stance of RT (nothing personal)...

OK. So the sea-lions wiped out one run of steelhead. I think we've done a lot worse.

CZ is right. We have no right to try and kill or harass a species just because their subsistance happens to be something we also want. Very selfish.

I'm not originally from here (like most Oregonians), and I've seen this mindset before. I've seen people justify shooting hawks just because "they're eating my quail." Or shooting eagles just because "they don't give the young antelope a chance."

Humans have a far superior intelect, and hundreds of ways to find a meal. Some of these animals don't. We can find ways to catch the remaining fish, and should enjoy the opportunities we get to see nature up close in the freshwater systems. I know I do.

Killing seals that come into the river aren't going to get you anymore fish. If you can't catch your seasonal limit of salmon and steelhead with the hunderds of thousands that come through, a few hundred more aren't going to help you any.

You can try and rationalize it anyway you want, but they were here first.

[Deleted User]

I am also going against the RT grain here.
Have any of you ever considered the possibility that the whole ecosystem has been thrown out of whack by the overpopulation of humans? Please provide documentation regarding the "artificially caused overpopulation of sea-lions and seals". Is it possible that humans have strip-mined the oceans for so many years that the seals and sea lions are doing what comes natural...re-locating to the food source in an attempt to survive?

[THE REEL HEY_YALL]

RT, ya know I love ya brah, but I'm going to **** a bunch of y'all off too here. I've caught salmon with the marks on them, and that just makes me respect the fish that much more...before I bonk him...muh ha ha ha j/k

Seriously though, last time I checked, I thought the sea lions and such were endangered? I'm sure the big jabba the hut sea lions eat fish, but since I've taken umpteen years of marine biology, they love to eat seals from my studies. I guess if no seals are around, then they'll eat fish.

I think all this hatred for these animals comes from the fact that we sportfishermen have to f*cking fight a ton of elements to catch a fish. So do these animals. If the gillnets didn't **** the rivers and oceans so badly, do you think you would see these seals so far upriver? They are just adapting for an easier food source which is matter of survival. Now I know the critters are mean, but I'm not going to take my frustrations out on one because I don't rely on fish for survival enough to get that ****** off at them. I do think we need some very up-to-date studies on the general populations and the impacts, plus studies on smaller packs of seals and sea lions that centralize in one area. Then I say blast 'em...muh ha ha ha After of course, the nets are out of the freaking water forever. Anybody want to join my effort in ******** at SportCo for selling gillnets? Why should they sell those things when they could fall into the wrong hands just like the gillnets that were under the 101 bridge during chum season this year. Totally illegal nets.

Oh yeah RT, I got another Senator in my pocket. Senator Shelby...muh ha ha ha That makes 2 now. At least I have their ears for listening, but acting is 2 different things in politics.
1) Sen. Voinovich
2) Sen. Richard Shelby

I'll try to keep em coming.

[Mike H]

Great thoughts nwwade & Truth Police! I usually hesitate to post my thoughts regarding such things as seal killing and native american issues. I'm afraid of getting ripped by the whole board. Glad to know someone out there thinks the way I do. Keep up the thoughtful posts http://www.ifish.net/forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif !

Mike H

[parker]

nwwade:

*Some* "Humans have a far superior intelect".

Not too sure about some of the folks on this board, though.

http://www.ifish.net/forum/images/graemlins/frown.gif

Parker

[THE REEL HEY_YALL]

Good post parker. "Intellect"

[Osprey]

Hey Redneck http://www.ifish.net/forum/images/graemlins/frown.gif what next .....you gonna hug a tree you little seal smoocher you http://www.ifish.net/forum/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Oh Hey Garyk if you want to see someone make a dent in the Coyote population stop by "Osprey Acres" .....it's always open season...muhaaaa
now if I could just get a seal to swim up my steam to the pond.....BONUS!!! Coyotes and Seals...fact is I just nailed a big oh woof woof on monday.
I'm sure they all have a place in the eco system....just not mine http://www.ifish.net/forum/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

There are three kinds of people: The ones that learn by reading, The few who learn by observation, and the rest of them who have to touch the fire to see for themselves if it's really hot..... http://www.ifish.net/forum/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif...Os

[SteelieSteve]

Let's open a market for some nice seal skin seat covers! http://www.ifish.net/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif Way to many predators today. In the past the "native americans" and natural enemies of those seals and sea lions would control the numbers; time to do away with the mammal protection act and do away with the too numerous seals and sea lions. just my .02

SS

[THE REEL HEY_YALL]

I learn by observation..ya know = the few..muh ha ha ha

I have this urge to go bond with a tree. Don't worry, I'll check for bees first http://www.ifish.net/forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Man, dang, now where did I put that hackey sack? Oh yeah, it's right here by my granola bars.

I'm not for or against the seals O's. I just think there are bigger things to "shoot" at besides an animal. I prefer the ones that like to beeyotch about rights and past wrongs and how their ancestors did things.

[Deleted User]

So what do all of you armchair wildlife biologists think should be done? Do we compound the problem by letting the over population of sea lions and seals continue to ravage the native fish runs? True enough that man's meddling ways caused the problem in the first place but obviously something needs to be done to balance things out. Some kind of control needs to be put on these predators. When aligators were protected a few years ago they got out of hand and people were finding them in their swimming pools and dining on family pets. The gators had to be thinned out. Same situation here....right?

[Snagly]

From 8,000 miles away, a few comments re seals:

1. There is no way that there will be any anti-seal laws passed which require a referendum. I'll go so far as to say that, even if no new laws are needed, any culling by Fish and Game sorts will spark a public outcry. The animal rights lobby is far, far stronger than the steelhead/ salmon (or even commercial fishing) lobby. Fish and Game doesn't need the bad PR.

2. If you take a vigilante attitude and start killing seals, not only will you be prosecuted if caught, you'll also do the cause of sportfishing serious harm. I'm sure PETA and other groups would love to find a photo of a fellow with an Ifish decal on his boat and a dying seal somewhere nearby. That would be a good pretext for closing rivers to even C & R fishing.

3. I don't like seals much at river mouths. I hate seeing them up rivers far from the ocean. But even if there were some new regs passed that allowed Fish and Game to humanely trap and relocate seals, is that how we want officers to spend their limited hours? I'd rather have them catching poachers, checking licenses and generally doing something rather than chase flippered critters around.

4. Billy's approach (trolling salmon rigged with size 15/0 trebles fore and aft) of catching them in the salt is feasible but unless you organize an "Ifish Let's Drown Some Seals" day on the salt I don't think isolated efforts will make a big overall difference.

Sorry to be so negative, but legalizing the killing of surplus seals just isn't on the cards. We're going to have to live with them.

PS I'm not certain having orcas in Tillamook Bay is going to help either, even if the odd seal or three gets munched. I suspect an orca pod would do a serious number on returning salmon/ steelhead numbers.

[CZ]

It's true - we are all armchair wildlife biologists at times.

I'm not so sure the number of seals and sea lions is out of "balance" right now. Sure, they are there at the river mouth catching fish, or following the fish up the river and chomping salmon right in front of our boats. This is nothing new, although it does tend to **** fishermen off, especially when the bite is slow that day.

We can always try "balancing" out nature, but our success rate has been horrible in the past. Our idea of balance always leans towards humans needs - not the needs of the of the fish and animals we are supposedly helping out.

I'm not a scientist, but nature seems to take it's course much better than man:

Too many predators - they will starve.
Too much prey - predator numbers increase.

[Deleted User]

Mr. Truth Police, remember that 'Internal Affairs' division is always on the lookout for bad cops! I do agree with you that much of the problems with the human race is overpopulation. How to you propose to 'thin out' the herd? I've got my ideas, but I don't think they'd play well publicly; especially with the 'bottom scum' in the barrell! .....

You mentioned you want credible documentation that there is an overpopulation of sea-lions and seals; yet you didn't provide any credible documentation with your claim that seals don't have enough food in the ocean. Hmmm. Hypocracy is a big red flag for a bad cop! You've read what guys are seeing out there - you don't need written documentation that there is an ocean or sky do you? As for your take on why seals are relocating up rivers to eat wild salmon and steelhead - you claim w/o documentation that it's because they can't find enough food in their more natural habitat in the ocean - well, you better start looking over your shoulder for Internal Affairs cracking down on bad cops. The logical reasons I've read elsewhere (including the 'Newswire Fish Advisory' newsletter) is that the overpopulation of seals is why many are relocating up rivers to find food because there are too many to compete with in their more common feeding areas out in the ocean. It's the same way with the rebounded overpopulation of cougars the hunting ban has caused; for example. Those big cats are so numerous now that some have to relocate near neighborhoods to eat people's pets. And in increasing documented cases (Western Outdoors magazine "Dateline West") have started to chew on smaller human beings, killing a few. Particularly in B.C. and California. That's all because of PETA types showing a dog treed cougar get shot on TV umpteen times during the anti-hunting election issue campaign. Look up at the sky, cop. It's there. Then take off your blinders like a good cop would do and see the artificially caused overpopulation of seals. Nature's way of taking care of animal overpopulation is the seemingly unkind harsh reality of mass starvation. It would happen so much more often if the deer and elk herds weren't control thinned by quick kill hunter's bullets; which prevent mass slow suffering starvation when natrue thins the herds. It's going to be the same for the seals if they remain improperly uncontrolled. After they kill off a sustainable portion of the fish that escape the foibles of mankind, nature will very harshly and slowly suffer starve off seal overpopulations. Wouldn't it be much more humane to instanly put them out of their inevitable starvation thin out with hunter's bullets? And by doing so SOON, along with others measures, we will help to save the native fish from extinction. Remember, people release the nates; seals kill them. There's your truth. ....

When you want to do something lame on here like call yourself the "Truth Police" you better be careful what you say.

RT

[AuntyM]

If it's OK to harvest game in order to keep a balance, why can't the same be done with seals?

PETA (people eating tasty animals) at
http://www.fegan.net/peta.htm

[CZ]

The only "balance" some people are seeking is to have more fish to catch for themselves. This is not a balance, it is managing a fishery for maximum take by fisherman...

I realize seals kill fish without regard to their native or hatchery backgrounds. My guess (only a guess) is that humans have a much more drastic effect on native runs than any seals do. And if we start to kill seals because they are eating "our" fish what animal is next on the Most Wanted list? Should we start to harass killer whales then too - or do we look at what man-caused problems we can solve?

[otter]

The following story is true, (really). The names have been changed beacuse I can't remember them.
Shortly after the Exxon oil spil in Alaska a group of green earth type folk, rescued two seal pups that had been covered in crude. Left on their own these pups surely would have died. However, much to their credit, the green folk nursed these two pups back to health. The total cost was somewhere around $20,000 per seal, a small price to pay if you ask me. Then the time came to let the seals go back into the wild. The whole town came out to watch, school children came by the bus full, the media was there and the band played. With a thunderous round of applause the seals were released and swam off into the open water where, within sight of everyone on shore, they were eaten by a pod of passing killer whales.
The end!

Save a seal
Feed a whale
KRM

[Raptorwill]

woohoooo id be up for a 2 month season on seals or even better just an open hunt----remember the jackrabbit explosian in the early 80's---burnt out 2 marlin 22's on em and after them came the cyotees---went through a marlin 30-30 and a rem 222------
i think the 222 would be a ******* seal gun-- flat shooten and got some reach--now that Bush is in heck we might have a chance on gettin a season opened http://www.ifish.net/forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

[DanS]

If you think the seal and sea lion population in Puget Sound hasn't increased dramatically since the MMPA was enacted, you don't spend much time on the saltwater.

If you think sea lions didn't wipe out an entire run of fish, you are mistaken.

If you think humans didn't make it possible for the sea lions to wipe out this run with their poor fish-ladder bulding techniques and lack of bottom debris, you are mistaken.

If you think this run was wiped out because we humans with our "superior intellect" couldn't make a decision, you are correct. In Scotland, they use dummy Orcas to frighten seals away from their net pens. It works. KISW radio tried for months just to get permission to TRY this at the Ballard Locks. After dealings with the Coast Guard, the Port of Seattle, the NMFS, the WDFW, the USACE, and countless other agencies, it became apparent that not ONE S.O.B. in the whole bunch had the ability to OK this move. This "superior intellect" exists in theory only, in the real world humans are incompetent beyond description.

Will shooting a seal here and there make any difference? I doubt it. But that doesn't mean that we should give the pinnipeds a big sloppy kiss and let them eat their way through an entire run of fish. In Ballard, Herschel should have been removed with lethal force. Same with the next big, fat, lazy sea lion who was given an easy smorgasboard by the "superior intellect" of the builders of the locks. It wouldn't take too many removed in this way to convince the others that there was a meal ticket elsewhere that would cost them their lives.

I don't see our impact on the environment and the fish runs being any justification for sitting by idly while sea lions we gave an unfair advantage to wipe out an entire run. It runs along the same lines as the ol' "if I let this wild fish go, the indians will just net more" argument. Neither one has any logical basis. Our impact gives us MORE reasoning to do something about seal predation on fish. It's not about increasing MY chances at a fish, it's about increasing the FISH'S chances of making it past an obstacle that we created in the first place, with the MMPA and changes to the natural features of river mouths. Or we can lament our impact on the environment, and use that as a justification to do nothing.

[Deleted User]

Good post Dan! Too often the public gets the "warm fuzzys" for these seals maybe because of their big puppy dog eyes or whatever but the fact remains these protected predators are making a significant impact on the wild fish runs. They are opportunistic predators and the salmon and steelhead make easy targets. It's not like there is a shortage of available food all one has to look at is the population explosion that has occured since the enactment of the MMPA. So quit feeling sorry for sea lions and seals, they are thriving!!!
Some responsible management of these animals is an important step to revival of the wild fish runs.

[DF]

Well, Im a little young to fish the coast in my boat so I havent seen this in action. But its almost a no win situation. If you start killing seals then mabey the Orca population will drop because of lack of food. And yes there could be a seal season. If it was farley short. Like Deer Or Elk that wouldnt be so bad. But some of the attitudes " just kill em all " thats not right http://www.ifish.net/forum/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif

[meyersbilly]

Here’s a little info for the non believers.

Biologists estimate the West Coast sea lion population at 100,000. Number has been rounded down and doesn’t include the 5% population increase from the 1994 survey.

Sea lions consume approximately 10% of their 250-pound body weight (average) in food each day. 100,000 sea lions X 250 pounds X 10 percent = 2,500,000 pounds of food consumed daily. Now lets say that 10 percent of their diet is salmonids (higher or lower depending on local/range, but once again averaged). 2,500,000 pounds X 10 percent salmonids = 250,000 pounds in salmonids. Now lets say the average West Coast salmonid weighs 10 pounds. 250,000 pounds in salmonids / 10 pounds (average salmonid weight) = 25,000 salmonids eaten daily by West Coast sea lions.

[Pirate]

Mmmmmmm....Campbells Condensed Cream of Sealion Soup.....mmmmmmmmm http://www.ifish.net/forum/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

------------------
B

[Penn]

OK, for all you people on this issue that just couldn't stand to see your cute little fish stealing, overly protected, over populated critters get their deserve, here's a compromise. If they come in to fresh water they should be open game. If they are as smart as you guys think, they should get the hit real fast. And yes, if it means one more fish for me, so be it. It will make up for the ones I have lost in the middle of the columbia clear up here at sundial!

[Fishaholic]

Killing seals is natural, our intellect allows us to look out for endangered species, to balance the resources some selective killing is required. Before the marine mammal act seals were not a problem in local rivers and estuaries, because they were shot, seals need to do their hunting in the ocean. The marine mammal act needs to be revised.

[garyk]

Sure, go ahead and waste your energy fretting about seals (which happened to co-evolve with salmon with resulting healthy populations of both). Meanwhile, BPA is thumbing it's nose at the salmon and fisherman (and perhaps even the law) by spilling water from upstream reservoirs now -- which will leave the Columbia bathtub warm this summer and reduce velocity to carry the smolts to sea.

Shooting coyotes, pitchforking Dolly Varden, or killing seals -- it's all the same, sad mentality. And no apologies from me for not going along with it.

These seal-killing diatribes, which resurface regularly here, really demonstrate why fisherman are so ineffective at protecting the resource.

[THE REEL HEY_YALL]

Newbee - Whether or not your post was 'really' true or not, it was still damn funny. Kinda like something I would see on The Simpsons. http://www.ifish.net/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif

BigStew, I know all about the alligator problem down in Florida with the critters ending up in swimming pools, but you also haven't realized is that Florida is one of the fastest-growing states in the nation, and urbanization is reaching into the depths of their habitat. I know this because I have lived there.

In Alabama, the things are protected and I've seen a bloom of the things in my ponds on my farms, but the primary food source of an alligator is snakes. Who the hell likes snakes anyways? They also eat turtles, few fish, and a tasty beaver or rabbit, and other small vermin. I welcome them, but when they get up to 8-10' long, let's just say I "relocate" them http://www.ifish.net/forum/images/graemlins/wink.gif That's when the things get scary and can take bigger things down like cattle, dogs, and people. For the most part, they are harmless if you respect them. Now for part 2 of the seal thing. Just had to clear things up on the gator issue, and plus they didn't kill the things. What you saw on tv; they just relocated them to another location, unless a death is caused. I know this maaaaan.

Animals, just like humans (O's), are lazy in nature. They will seek the easiest, and especially the most abundant food source. Fish in the locks, ladders, and gill nets would be the easiest way to feed. Beats an open ocean. Still say there's not an abundance of food for them in the oceans.

People are right by saying we need some kind of balance. Especially relocating or teaching the domesticated ones a lesson. I think the Orca idea would be great, along with fireworks, or a bean bag high-velocity projectile. If the animal still is a nuisance, then by all means, I say harvest it or ship it's ass to a zoo. The only reason these animals have become lazy is because we've made it too easy for them. Like I said I am not for or against the population of seals, but I am just as discouraged as the next guy.

[willierower]

I only needed to read half of the first page to figure out what I needed to say here.
First of all Its the Stellar sea lion thats endangered. Not the California sea lion. Harbor seals arnt to big of a problem. The Californa Sea Lion is what we should be concerned about. I read somewhere that thier population has increased over 300% since the marine mammal protection act was implemented. Sea lions up 300%, wild salmon and steelhead stocks down, Who knows what precentage. That just doesnt quite add up.
We control big game predators like coyotes. It seems reasonable to control marine predators also. Oh I forgot about the cuddle factor of fish wasnt so great. Who wants to hug a cold slimy fish? They would much rather hug a cute helpless fawn. Then kill the mean coyote thatwas trying to eat it. Its just the oppisite with sea lions, hug the cute seal and feed it a stinky slimy steelhead that may onl be one of 100 hundred left in that run.
I feel controlled reductions in the population would have imediate and positive effects.
I noticed the people who said it would be wrong to control the population through killing are either from the Portland-Metro area or stated they were from out of the state. Please tell me how you came form your opinion. Did you form it because it is the socially corrct thing to say, Or did you form it from personal observation of the actual problem? Im just kinda curious.

[Deleted User]

If the runs are down, then you limit the #1 predator. And that would be humans, plain and simple. Unfortunately we don't have the ability to off the extra ones like some do with coyotes, so we have to do something else.

Don't blame the sea lions for the Ballard Locks fiasco. We created the buffet, they found it and took advantage of it. They go where their food source is. And their food source is very limited, unlike ours.

These things survived in harmony for thousands of years until the Stupid White Man came along and effed things up. It's all about our needs, screw the rest of the planet.

So we can have more toys that glow in the dark we dam the rivers, forgetting that the river is supposed to flow uninterrupted. So that we can have salmon for our $50-a-plate restaurants we run nets in the path of the fish, forgetting that they were on the way to repopulate their species. So that we can build more $250,000 homes instead of high-density housing we should use we strip the land clear of native plants and animals, forgetting that the predators would wipe out their now-unprotected prey and then come after our housepets and garbage cans.

Damnit people, get a clue. Read the teachings of the tenants of the land before Europeans swept in and nearly wiped them out. They knew how to harvest from the land without destroying it.

[Joe Schwab]

Ahh the old seal question comes up again! To kill or not to kill begs the question. Those nasty predators need to be eliminated so the greatest predator can do his thing unobstructed. We live to fish and fish to live, RIGHT!! Dont get me wrong I'm not totally against control of any predators especally seals and sea lions but they have taken a lot of flak for conditions created by stupid decisions, total protection being one of them. One lonely seal at OC in the spring would generate more calls to Fish and Wildlife than all the combined illegal actiites of those bottom dwelling, pond scum, deadline poachers who conveniently lost their punchcards when they became full so they could buy a duplicate and start all over. Somehow catching more fish than the average person could consume was honorable or at least acceptable enough that no one would think of ratting them off. Predators the enemy? They are us! I sincerely hope that anyone intentionally hooking a seal and fighting it to exhaustion so it drowns doesnt get nailed by the feds. Then again???
Big crime, big fine, loss of boat, fishing privileges. One big time poacher was found guilty and sentenced. Part of his sentence was loss of hunting and fishing privileges for life, anywhere on the planet! Think about it.

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[Starr]

I'm just curious, and don't mean to **** anyone off, but who is the biggest preditor? Indians and their sustanance fishing, sportsfishermen or seals? Maybe gillnetters?

[THE REEL HEY_YALL]

Starr, that answer would be gillnetters,allbeit commercial or Indian. People would say dams, and I can see their arguments as to what may have started the decline, but when you mix nets into the formula of an already dwindling species, it makes no sense. Oh it's my heritage and religion to sell wild steelies at a buck a pound.

Fobb made great points in his post. It's not the overpopulation of people I don't think that's had the biggest fault on nature, it's the modernization of our species that's done it.

As far the brah that said whomever wants to protect these things is from out of state, dude it's called a F*cking conscience. Just because I'm ****** because a seal stole my fish I want to wage war on it???? Nice rationale. I am not against controlled, selective harvest if the guidelines meet it like I said in my previous replies. But when you start messing with the seals and such, you start messing with the whales that feed on them, and so on. There needs to be a balance, and I would love to see an up-to-date study on the numbers of these predators to see if harvesting is a good attack. I would also like to see a projected impact study to the # of seals/sea lions to whales if we start selective harvesting of seals and such. I also agree that those damn critters have no business up in a river that especially could impact a native run.

Ya know this could span out to well the seals steal my fish so I'm gonna kill them. Well if you look at the figures, minorities are taking a large percentage of your check for welfare so ya gonna want to selectively harvest them to? Well I won't comment on that one...muh ha ha ha ha http://www.ifish.net/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Joe Schwab]

Ahhh the old seal argument again. Lets shoot, dynamite, poison these predators into oblivion. That way the ultimate predator can go about his business unobstructed. Dont get me wrong, I believe in controlling all predators. The seals and sea lions have taken more than their share of blame for taking advantage of conditions created by stupid decisions. By guess who? It always amazed me how one seal at OC could generate more irate calls to Fish and Wildlife than all the illegal activities by the bottom dwelling, pond scum deadline poachers who sat in their boats day after day filling their tags then losing them so they could get another one and start over. Somehow this was considered honorable or at least acceptable by many of the "sports" who frequented the area. But let the seals come in and all hell broke loose. I hope the "sports" who would deliberately hook a seal and then fight it to drowned exhaustion never get caught by the feds. Then again!!
Big crime, biig fine, loss of boat and fishing privileges. Hopefully that was just fantasy bragging.. Work through the laws people and write your reps.


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[otter]

hey_yall,
Yes it is a true story. I think that the total dollar ammount that I listed was low :eek
I am all for selective harvest of seals, if they are in fresh water shoot them and name them Bob.
KRM

[Fuzzybutt & Angel]

I agree with DanS, if you dont think that seals are a rampant menace, you havent fished in the saltwater much, I caught a nice blackmouth today, but not by much, those sea-lions were all over the place in Elliot Bay! they just park their lazy butts on a Bouy until you hook-up, and then they slowly swim up on the salmon now slowed down by being hooked on the line, turn over on their backs like they were in an aquarium an take the fish from you. this has gotten so bad, that if you even pick your net up from the boat and hold it up, they know the signal and come over to see if you have their lunch ready. the over population of seals (harbor) and sea-lions has gotten way out of hand.
as for the sea-lions not being blamed for the Ballard Locks fiasco?? I call B.S!!
was it you down there eating them? ME? hell no, the state sat and watched for years as they ripped those fish to shreds, showed it on the news, you name it, but did they DO anything about it...no, they didnt, could they have?? you bet, you know what? my dad was on the commitee to elect the person, or persons to shoot the sea-lions..thats right, we had the green light, but you know what?nobody would do it, the Tribals got first crack, the Muckelshoots said uh-uh, not me I wont pull the trigger, Ive got gillnets and all the fish I want. you see the state didnt ask the right people, I know of a dozen without trying that would have jumped at the chance, including myself. but they wouldnt REALLY want to ask someone that would actualy do it. it was all a ploy, so...they studied them some more..and the rest is history, and those sea-lons, and seals, are doing it to other watersheds as well, unchecked, and WAAAY out of control. and if all you tree hugging, bleeding heart ethical treatment of animals NUTS cant see all the damage they are doing to fish stocks (not just salmon&steelhead) by the ecosystem being thrown totaly out of whack, because the are protected, and breeding like friggin' rats, well then, you just dont have one clue as to what is really happening out there! shoot em', string em' up, and hang the bleeding carcasses in the water as fair warning! better yet, let the tribals have NO limit on seals like they have on salmon!
feed the crabs, shoot a seal!

Fuzzy

[Bait O' Eggs]

So just how do you feel about this topic fuzzy?

[Fuzzybutt & Angel]

http://www.ifish.net/forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif@Bait o' Eggs, it shows huh?

[Predator Dawg]

Fuzz - try some caffiene prior to posting http://www.ifish.net/forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I say its wrong to shoot the seals, I think they'd be much more sporting with a bow. Plus, in the fog, no one can hear or see it. Now, if you were to attach some line to the end of the arrow and tie on a 4lb ball, kinda takes care of the evidence issue.

We control elk, deer, lions, bear, etc. Save the bleeding heart crap. Every animal needs to be kept in check.

[SLEDDER]

I have the bow and the desire, the bow thing is a good idea!!!!!!

[Fuzzybutt & Angel]

HEY! there you go! I am going out there again tommorow hhhhmmmm, maybe some 4 pound cannonballs and my compound would be a good idea, even got those barbed fish broadheads so the arrow wont come out. ya' think 50lb. tuff line to the arrow will drag them down? what are they going to do? dive for the evidence? as hey-yall would say Muh ha ha ha ha, you guys are great! see what creative ideas have come about...thanks guys! a hunting I will Go.

Fuzzy

[jet]

SteveJ

"Every animal needs to be kept in check" a good idea, but really the animal is man. It is all about checks and balances. It seems like it is time for a war. Kinda of rude but man could be kept in check also somehow, who knows we may do it to ourselves.

I sound like the guy on the Planet of the Apes when Tyler finds the Staue of Liberty listing, and falling apart in the ocean.The apes may take over yet...


Jet~~~

[This message has been edited by jet (edited 02-23-2001).]

[THE REEL HEY_YALL]

Hey I don't know about you, but I don't snip the plastic rings on a 6-pack http://www.ifish.net/forum/images/graemlins/cool.gif damn crows and sea gulls, they are the real egg thieves....muh ha ha ha ha

Nice Try with the evil laughter Fuzzy, but you have to say it with conviction next time.

50lb tuffline should work depending on surrounding rocks, then I'd bump it up to 100# cause those critters have nasty teeth.

[Predator Dawg]

Jet, I agree with you. As soon as there is a season on 'undesireables', we'll make some headway. Until then, we can only control the other animals.

[Bait O' Eggs]

I've said it before, just put a shad on a big old hook and about 10 or 15 pounds of weight tied to it. I dont know how long Mr. wiskers would be able to tread water with that hanging out of his mouth but pretty soon he wouldnt come back up. http://www.ifish.net/forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif http://www.ifish.net/forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif http://www.ifish.net/forum/images/graemlins/smile.gif

I bet we could even get a hook manufacturer to supply the hooks.

[jet]

"BINGO" Steve

Jet~~~

[fish_on]

So if we were allowed to kill seals how would we prepare them for eating? Battered and fried, steaked, grilled or baked. I have a craving for battered seal tenderloin uuuuuummmmmm.

[hookem]

Is it legal to wear a seal skin coat?
I think I would like to have one.

[winterkill]

If their is seal killin going on, I want to make sure I am the one doing it. http://www.ifish.net/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif I say drop anchor maybe 25-50 yards and start blasting. Then the smarter faster ones would get away...and stay away. All this talk about killing seals, makes me hungrey mmmmmm seal steaks. Didn't the Indians kill seals before white people came? That is controlling the population isn't it? The seal population is probably just as large now as it was 300 years ago.

[Fishhead]

There is a reason they are called SEA-lions its because they belong in the SEA. If you see them in the river or bay its time for getting momma a new fur coat !!!! ....Fishhead Vic