Abandoned faith

[RvW]

Ive got Christian friends and non Christian friends here and outside of Ifish.
I have agnostic friends, atheist friends, Jewish friends, and friends who subscribe to spirituality but not any specific religion, and certainly not a bible.
I really have little desire to share this with any of them one on one. The agnostic people are not interested, the christian friends are discouraged... It is quite personal, but I'd like some random input: obviously from Christians, or more-so people who might find themselves in a similar position.
First, Ill set the record straight, I am not here to challenge anyones beliefs other than maybe those who believe in nothing at all, its very difficult to comprehend how they feel, but I think Ive come to the conclusion that its equally difficult to comprehend, or accept the bible and its stories.

I have put the bible down. Honestly, I have lost all interest in the new testament, or any other version of the bible and I have to say that though I feel my decision to do so is a practical one, it is frightening.
I feel spiritually empty and lost. And quite confused.

For the last year I have spent a significant amount of time reading and studying. I came across a website called the Skeptics Annotated Bible and have read every word.
I have read printed material, books, blogs, and entire websites and I have participated (in a very objective and unbiased position) with online discussion. Most have been geared to debunking Christianity, or simply refuting the stories of the bible. The sites are very respectful, very well structured and allow for pragmatic, interesting debate.
Probably not the best environment for someone who called themselves a Christian at one time, but my effort to learn more was inspired by a growing Christian resistance and my own inner questions. I simply wanted to know what all the fuss was about among the so-called "free thinkers" and what they knew that I didnt.

What my experience has led to is a little difficult to explain. In a nut-shell, it is best said that I have abandoned my Christian based faith, and have shed a label I feel I may have unjustly attached to myself.
I dont think I ever committed anything more to my claim that I was a Christian than to simply state it. I did not go to church, I didnt read the bible consistantly and never ever solicited others to join me (or "sold" christianity), I simply didnt live in a Christian way.
I reached a point where I asked myself "how am I a Christian by Simply claiming to be a Christian?"
The answer:
Im not.

I think hope and faith are two very different things. I am, and was without faith. But I never lacked hope, and still do not lack hope that there is a creator, a heaven and eternal life. Unfortunately no part of the bible has encouraged any faith within me. None of my Christian friends have either when I separate their inspiring dedication and faith, from my doubts and criticisms based on identical information.
Ive racked up hundreds of hours on the phone having this discusion with a friend who has repeatedly emphasized the fact that I need to continue studying the bible. My argument has always been the same. I have read as much as he has read, and studied at least as much to come to my (in)conclusions. I think the reasons my decision to abandon the bible should be at least as credible as his decisions to continue reading it considering the vast amount of inconsistencies, and contradictions Ive found in the book

At this point I can honestly say that I feel lost. I cant say I didnt have these same feelings as a so-called Christian because beyond the label, I dont think I ever was...I just wanted to be. I wanted to mingle with those who take such comfort in the concepts of Christianity.
I think I should ad that although Ive set the bible down, and have very strong feelings that allow me to reject it (or rationalize rejecting it) I still feel as though there IS a creator, an answer for mens most complex questions, and relief for mans most challenging inner struggles.
I continue to speak to "God" though Ive dismissed all the things Ive come to learn about who and what God is. "God has not revealed himself to me in any way through a book that was written by men, re-written by men, and translated more by interpretation than word for word.

Ive posted this here because there are some very intelligent and kind people in Ifish, and there is an atmosphere of trust that I cannot find anywhere else.
On a side note, I didnt post in the "thank the mods" thread, but I do thank them for the time they have spent making this place one that we can ask for input and opinions and support on the subject and many others: which is the purpose of this post. I am especially interested in hearing from people who are, or have been in my position (if anyone can actually conclude what that position is). I dont think I will ever read another passage from the bible, here or anywhere... but I dont think anyone or anything will ever convince me that there is no god, and we will all someday be confronted by god. I guess I am starting from scratch here with a spiritual core that is in its most undeveloped and raw form, but somewhat jaded to say the least.
:help:

[joemomma]

Wow! I love your honesty with yourself, that is a good thing! I too have struggled with the book. "Being a rowdy redneck and all":laugh:, christian friends do not fall in my lap! What opened my eye's up was a good church! Now I know that not all churches are fun and some have some serious issues with the spoken word! But the bible can be complicated, and easily misunderstood, find a good church and a "great sunday school class or bible study and it will unfold before you like you can't believe"! After going for awhile,I couldn't believe how much I was getting out of the word! I to look for the neon sighn in the sky from god giving me direction every now and then, but it's not there. Faith is something, How do I say, for me strange sometimes. What brings me back is knowing that Jesus died on the cross for me, and nobody, and I mean nobody, for sure, 100% would ever do that! He didn't even think about it! He knew he was going to do it for me and You! That there dmands my faith! Struggling as a christian is very normal, we are surrounded by the world and it does effect us! That is the biggest struggle I have, I deal with it every single day! I hope this helps, I just know that when I think of jesus on that cross on my and your behalf, I can break down and cry like you can't believe, done it a many of a time while fishing! I will pray for you during your time of searching! One more thing, If you have a little "hope" you got some "faith" Take that to the bank!!


Your friend in Jesus!

Joe

[happybrew]

I am especially interested in hearing from people who are, or have been in my position (if anyone can actually conclude what that position is).

Actually, I've come from quite the opposite position. I have a degree in philosophy with an emphasis on symbolic logic and analytic philosophy, with a minor in organic and biochemistry. My education was largely anti-Christian. Christianity was largely mocked, ridiculed, and you never saw an argument that did not include an anti-Christian bias. I found the arguments against Christianity ultimately illogical, based on false premises and incomplete facts, and finally, unpersuasive. Many of them were simply bad arguments. A lot of them were intellectually dishonest.

I consider the many years I spent studying secular philosophy to be largely wasted, and I do not find any philosophers past the 1600's who have improved in any way upon Aristotle.

In large measure, things like the Skeptics Bible are written with an agenda in mind. I'm not going to preach at you and try to convince you of anything because I don't think I can, and even if I could I don't think it would be of any use to you. Ultimately, this is a journey that you have to undertake for yourself, but I would urge you to read anti-Christian literature critically and research the claims, not just superficially, but in depth, and apply the same level of scepticism to their claims as they do to those of Christianity.

Ultimately faith is a decision. It is not something that just happens to us. It is a decision we need to make for ourselves. We choose which evidence we will accept, and which evidence we will reject, and which evidence even makes it onto the scale. The professional anti-christian sceptics make a lot of deliberate decisions about which evidence makes it into the pile, and pooh-pooh a lot of evidence without explanation.

happybrew

[happybrew]

I just took a quick look at the Annotated Skeptics Bible. Nothing in real detail. One thing sprung out at me regarding the date of Jesus' birth. If you look at Luke, you end up with a later date than with the other Gospels. Luke says Mary was pregnant after Cyrenus started his first census. This would put his birth at a later date than when Herod was governor. They call this a contradiction, and presumably say it is proof that Jesus either didn't exist or that the Gospels are wrong. They don't specify.

In order to draw that conclusion, you already have to assume that conclusion. It is circular reasoning. The conclusion is contained in the premises. The most that can be proven from the difference is that one date is wrong. That is all that can be proven. Historical dates are disputed all the time by scholars. When that happens, the dispute is noted, with reasons for and against. That is what neutral research does. No one then concludes that Napoleon or Julius Caesar didn't exist, or that everything written about Napoleon or Julius Caesar is wrong. But they do when it comes to Christ. Rather than following normal rules regarding academic neutrality, they use the facts in dispute to push an agenda. They are not neutral. To say that a difference in dates between two sources shows that all sources are wrong is just as much of a mistake as to say that both dates must be right because the Bible is infallible in every way and in all things. Both views are absurd, and both ignore the obvious simple conclusion that one date is wrong, which is the conclusion that would be drawn if it were Napoleon or Caesar being studied.

happybrew

[Dullhook]

I would only add these points to the excellent ones already made.

Gathering from your post that although you do believe in a higher power (God) that the main problem with the Christian faith would be with the inerrancy of the Bible.

You are not alone my friend, since whole segments of society have been and still are biased against it. The majority of these folks do believe in "a god" or creator although they've never established a personal relationship with Him. It seems like many approach the Bible with a built in skepticism causing doubt of its veracity. People want clear cut answers to their questions about life in this confusing world and are left often with no clear guidance.

The Bible does answer these questions if we approach it with an open mind (its all reasonable and logical with study) and look at the prophesies in their total context.

Since the Bible is the true Word of God it answers the the most important question that all of us need to know. That is: it reveals the purpose of why we were created and the gift of salvation through Jesus Christ! The Bible teaches us truths that we could never discover on our own or from any other source. Its the gift from the one who created us!

God loves us and since we were created in His image and blessed with high degree of intelligence and curiosity, His word gives us His Fatherly Wisdom. The divine revelations of the Bible have never been disproved and are accurate in moral laws, science, history, archeology, as well as divine prophesy.

Please continue to read the Bible considering the speaker, situation, and subject of all verses. Compare the fulfilled prophesies of the Messiah with those of the Old Testament. How perfectly they coincide. One part of the Bible will explain another in all instances. It is the true Word of God written just for you!

Blessings, Dh.:angel:

[DAB]

R vs W
I will pray for you in that you will find the real truth in your quest for the truth.
DAB

[Bartman]

Row vs Wade,
My wife and I too struggled with Christianity. for me, more and more,I felt as if I was living a lie,I couldnt believe that people couldnt see the "taint" of man, and honestly believe that every word in the bible is the infalible word of God, even though there is tons and tons of evidence of things being added and taken from it. I also new with all my being, that there is divinity, but with growing up in the USA, we tend think of religous options, in terms of, baptist,lutheran,methodist,JW,LDS,etc,etc, so I felt that I had to find the "best" one, and bite my tongue when the man made dogma was more tham obvious. after a few years, not only was this not spiritually rewarding,but it was harmfull, so we walked away.
The Gods took us right where we needed to be, come to find out, there are thousand and thousands of people finding their way back to the
pre-xtian religions, that their Ancestors practiced and lived for thousands of years, but were supressed through forced conversions, and religious laws that mandated what religion a person HAD to be. now that in most of western cultures, those oppressive laws have been removed, people who so choose, can shake off centuries of an alien creed, that for many, many people doesnt work, and can start to find the faith that speaks to their soul, and in my belief, get away from a spiritual path that can actually be harmfull to many people.
If you have any questions that I can answer through PM, feel free to ask, I can also send some very informative info.
Bart

[eddie haskel]

It seems to me you're trying to intellectualize a belief. I can't fathom a way for you to succeed, for they appear to be to be at odds.

Now, doubt, is another animal altogether. It's based on lack of knowledge or understanding. If you don't know what it is you seek, that complicates your dilemma further.

I've no doubt the promise made by God, will deliver me to what I seek.
The trouble is not in the message, but my ability to carry it out.

It seems to me you really never surrendered your will to His. If you had, then you'd need not access other possible avenues to what eludes you.

You might try reading James (again) ?

I wish you the best....

[RvW]

Not trying to intellectualize anything. At one time I tried to validate a belief by any means possible and it seems far easier to dismiss Christianity based on the Christian bible itself that it does to validate it via the same means.

I dont want to sound resistant. I welcome anything that might take this emptiness away.
Ive always believed that if you are going to heaven, you will feel god in your heart. Ive opened my heart, many many many times and god has not consumed it in a way I read he has consumed all of yours.
Every Christian I have ever met claims they are going to heaven simply because they believe Jesus has provided the key for them to get there.
Ive read the bible looking for ways to support this, but end up with confusing, conflicting, and even unbelievable tales that confuse me even more and bring me no closer to feeling as though I have a place in any kingdom of any god.
If I dont feel it, I can only assume that when it all boils down to a crossroads when I die...heaven or hell, theres a place in hell for me.

Heaven is reserved for those who believe Jesus has provided the key to get there, regardless of all of our horrific sins?
I just dont get it. What would encourage men to live without sin if all are forgiven? My sins qualify me for a place in hell. How can I dismiss my sins and seek a place in heaven? Ive sinned, and I ask no-one, not even Jesus to remove accountabilty for those sins.

Anyway, this isnt really a follow-up to my initial post. I am what I am, and I dont expect that to change it with a post here.
I appreciate the replies, and the effort that goes into them.
Im learning or trying to, you folks are teaching, and probably not just me.

Thanks

[D-tangle]

Heaven is reserved for those who believe Jesus has provided the key to get there, regardless of all of our horrific sins?
I just dont get it. What would encourage men to live without sin if all are forgiven?
RVW, If Christ is in us that have recieved him, then it is he who lives in us, not we that live for ourselves. "The life we live in our body we live for him who loved us and gave himself for us" I think it is thankfulness partly and the new life living through us now that makes it worth living for him and not continuing to live in sin as we once did. For me it is his life I live now, though not very successfully. That's how i understand my commitment to him: new life created in his image and thankfulness.

My sins qualify me for a place in hell. How can I dismiss my sins and seek a place in heaven? Ive sinned, and I ask no-one, not even Jesus to remove accountabilty for those sins.

RVW, he doesn't ask you to dismiss your sins. No one can because they are what proves you are condemned as a sinner. You are well qualified for Hell, as am I. You are condemned and you will never be forgiven in Adam (your natural life). But in Christ, you are forgiven. You are not required to lift yourself up out of sin or dismiss any sins, because it is impossible for the condemned to cleanse themselves. This is an evil thought and futile in our flesh. The only question is 'who are you in?' Christ has died with our sins and rose cleansed from them, because you couldn't do it. His grace has done what you couldn't, or He died for nothing. He shares his victory with whoever will come to him and recieve through faith what he did. "Has he raised from the dead or not?" is my only question to you. If he has, you can trust him alone. I know he is God's son.

Anyway, this isnt really a follow-up to my initial post. I am what I am, and I dont expect that to change it with a post here.
I appreciate the replies, and the effort that goes into them.
Im learning or trying to, you folks are teaching, and probably not just me.

Thanks

What a journey and openness. Thank you and God bless your search for Him. I am praying God will open your heart to himself. Blessings.

[Dullhook]

How can I dismiss my sins and seek a place in heaven? Ive sinned, and I ask no-one, not even Jesus to remove accountabilty for those sins.


The good news is that we don't have to ask Him, RVW, because He's already done it. Please accept His gift!

"All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." Romans 3:22

This is the whole basis of Christianity. We have all sinned and have earned eternal death. Our fate was sealed unless someone could come along and pay the price...because God can not compromise His holy and righteous law. Sinless Jesus, the Lamb of God, did this out of love for us. His shed blood and subsequent resurrection from the dead, proves victory over sin and the world, and reconciles us with the Father.

"And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world. Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God." 1 John 4:14-15

Your desire to keep searching will eventually lead you to the truth.:flowered:

[letsfish]

Thank you for sharing so well your position! I want to say first that you have made some fabulous discoveries such as going to church, study and being good don't make you a Christian. Great things and very formiable, but not as satisfying and deep as faith. You want faith and can't find it. The bible doesn't make sense, so it must not be found in there, you think.
I remember when was forming my views that the bible was full of stuff I could not explain, yet I (finally)focused on the basics. I knew there was a God and I knew Jesus lived and died even for me. I accepted that and from that seemingly small amount of faith things started to make sense.
You have a belief in a god. Then pray to Him to give you faith. Tell Him you want the gift of faith!
You have been extremely honest with us, people who don't know you, so just be honest with Him who does know you.

In answer to one of your questions:
I just dont get it. What would encourage men to live without sin if all are forgiven?
Love and respect for a God that would allow His Son to die for us. Oh sure there is some of the "fear of the Almighty" possibley motivating some at sometimes, but livinging in love is so much easier.

[dlgobeavs]

This won't be the most popular response , considering that I am responding in the "anglers chapel", but I would like to congratulate you. You have successfully freed yourself from what you have been "taught" since you were a child. Escaping that bias and being able to look at your world with a critical eye is the first step in becoming a "free thinker". Free Thinker is not a desparaging term. Truly being able to look at the world/religion without those predjudices you had implanted in you from your youth is a tough journey indeed. If in the end you conclude that you do believe in a "god" of some sort, at least you are doing it without the restraint of believing because it was imprinted on your brain before you were old enough/intelligent enough to make that decision on your own.

That being said, and because I am sure I will get some interesting responses, I want to be honest and say that I made the same journey and concluded long ago that I didn't need religion to lead a good just life. I lead a life that my family/friends and anyone who knows me would look at with the highest regard.

Congratulations on taking that first step. If you come to the conclusion that religion is a bunch of nice fairytales, you can arrive knowing that your "free thinking" allowed you to make that conclusion.

Deciding whether or not to be involved in religion is a personal choice. One direction or the other isn't the recipe for deciding how good of a person you become. That is true for both judging yourself as well as others.

Dave

[RvW]

Dave, thanks for your response.
I think it might be relevant to say that I was never exposed to religion as a child beyond Christmas and Easter services in a traditional catholic church. Beyond that, Jesus, god and heaven were hearsay.
I made the choice to research Christianity and chose it as my "faith" because of its popular following. And, like many others...as a last resort when my life had little value.
I think the only difference between now and when I claimed to be a Christian is, Ive stopped lying to myself and others claiming to be one.
I guess the best analogy I can make would be playing the lottery.
I bought a Christian ticket and it didnt pay off.
Congratulating me for the void it has left isnt exactly comforting.
At one point I looked to be inspired by Christians who seem so incredibly moved by their relationship with god, hoping to fill the void within me.
Didnt happen.
They pointed at the bible.
Didnt happen.
So, I guess youre right in a sense.
I am "free"
The post is an elaboration of how I got there, and how frightening and lonely it seems to be.

[eddie haskel]

The thing that use to baffle me, was what in the heck is being filled with the Holy Spirit.
I could not discern, what I didn't know, or feel. I too went through the motions of trying to fit in to what I perceived as the Christian way. I prayed, yet I never felt them answered. Was I asking in prayer, for purely selfish motivation?

Yes!

I had no clue as to what the "need" in my life was, so how could I ask God for it?

I believe you need to get "down and dirty" with yourself. Go where you've not really dared to look before. Find the cause, or reason, you search all those avenues of "enlightenment". What do you feel that is missing in your life (that is for you to ask yourself, not me asking it of you).

I do know this is a fact in my life. There is plenty I don't know about life, or the Bible. Should I key in, or focus, on things that disrupt, or confuse me?
Should I not take of what causes me happiness and joy, and disregard those forces that only jeapordize that serenity?

What has worked extemely well for me is this....

I am a being of the physical world, as such, my mind more readily accepts things I can fathom. That is my quagmire and Achilles heal. It is hard for me to argue "facts" versus beliefs. So, the only thing I can use to determine the truth, or bellwether, is to determine the affects of those forces upon my attitude, and how it addresses my needs.

I do know a real force, much stronger than me, exists. I am no match for him. Therefore, I acknowledge Satan, and respect the power he has over me. He knows my weaknesses better than I do. I talk to him like I do Jesus. I tell him I know what he wants to do with me. I don't try and beat him, I can't, for I am weak.

But...that is when I turn toward the One who wants good for me. He is the strongest force I know. It will never fail me as long as I yield to His will.....even IF I've no clue as to exactly what it is.

Obedience and perseverance....to His teaching, is the only sustainable life choice for me, I've found.

You'll be in my prayers tonight my friend....

eddie

[Bartman]

RvsW
Hell isnt a place reserved for the worlds majority, who havent said a few words, or been dunked in water ( that depends on who you ask )
Hell isnt even a Christian word, according to northern european, pre-Christiantian beliefs, HEL is the after life, but to demonize as much of other peopls beliefs that they could, the early church started putting out propaganda, claiming that the Hel that people believed in, was actually an evil place.
Even though many of us arent "raised in the church" by our parenrts,tian doctrine is dumped on us from the time we're old enough to understand.
essentially, we're tought to fear the "boogie man" (hell and satan), and that the only way to avoid this eternal suffering is to join the Jesus club, not that its a good spirtual path that CAN lead to a good life, but that it is the ONLY path, never mind your grandpa who wasnt a Christian, he's suffering in hell, never mind your 17 yr old daughter who died in a car wreck, she's suffering in hell, etc, etc.
(quote from a recent article)
"After death
Heathenry is focused on right living in the here and now and does not place as great an emphasis on the afterlife as do some other religions. Whereas Valhalla - Odhin's hall - is popularly seen as the Norse equivalent of heaven, this in the Eddas, Valhalla is only for warriors who die in battle. Moreover, half of these battle-slain warriors go to Freyja's hall and half to Odhin's hall. According to the mythology as recorded People who die of natural causes go to the hall of the Goddess Hel. Most of today's Heathens see Hel as a neutral place where they will be reunited with their ancestors."

I suggest that you try your best to keep your mind open, and look for YOUR path, not some path that a Roman emporer decided was for EVERYONE, almost 2000 years ago.
I will be praying that the Gods and your Ancestors lead you to where YOU need to be!!

Hail the Seeker!!
Hail the Gods!!

[Clearly Abnormal]

Row vs. Wade,
I visited the forum tonight thinking that I might find a post such as "What I'm thankful for this Thanksgiving". Every day is Thanksgiving Day to me because I've come to understand that God has gone to the extreme limits of His abilities and power to do everything He possibly could to make this life like heaven on earth for me. After reading your post, I began to think that the greatest thing God and Jesus did for me was to allow me the privilege of demanding proof of their presence. It was a bold and friightening thing to do as a teenager, but it's the best thing I ever did. Their response to my demand removed any possibility of doubt and any argument that anyone might give me that Jesus is not real and alive is crushed before the words even reach my ears. I'm not writing to suggest that anyone do that. But I did vow to tell it if I didn't get a response and I vowed to tell it if they did respond to me and that's all I 'm doing.

Regarding inaccuracies and inconsistencies in the Bible: anything that man has had a hand in putting together is bound to have some flaws. Big deal. Who cares? I sure don't. God and Jesus gave me proof of their living existence in a personal encounter. The flaws of the Bible, if there are any, don't even register on my radar. I think that God is big enough to cover any mistakes and I demand that He back up the written copy of His words that I have in hand regardless of any man-made mistakes in it.

I don't know how to help anyone get to the point where I am: knowing beyond a shadow of a doubt that God and Jesus are both alive and well tonight and dwelling within me. As GWB would say, "I'm no rocket surgeon" so if I can get to this point of knowing and well being, God can get anyone else here too.

[Zephyr]

Interesting Thread, I believe I was there one time myself. Where did I come from, God, apes or what? There are no good men on earth, they are all sinners, so should I believe what they say? I can't believe that we came from nothing or every thing else came from nothing. I can't believe in the begining that I came from a single cell in some soup. We are and everything around us is too intricate and complex. I think the single cell would have died. Why haven't the dug up transitions from ape to man or any of the other animals. The Smithonian has a row of skulls starting from ape all the way up to man. Why are the skulls in the middle of the row fake, why did they have to creat them. I know, they haven't found them yet! I think it's hard for man to believe because we where created in time and because of our own sinful nature. Before time was created there was no time. There was just God and he always was or is. He has no biginning and he has no end. The people of the bible were inspired by God to write his words so we would understand, it's a roadmap to follow of life, everlasting life.......I was once of the walking dead, but now I am alive, forever and ever.....................Zephyr

[steelslapshot]

Exactly what are we fishing for today?

[RvW]

What exactly are YOU fishing for.....today?

[PapaHog]

By RvW

I just don't get it. What would encourage men to live without sin if all are forgiven? My sins qualify me for a place in hell. How can I dismiss my sins and seek a place in heaven? Ive sinned, and I ask no-one, not even Jesus to remove accountability for those sins.

I believe that not even Jesus can remove accountability for the sins of an individual. I believe that Jesus is God come to earth to pay the price for our sins. He lived without sin, suffered and died on the cross for our sins. By accepting Christ as Lord and Saviour you are covered by the blood and God can no longer see sin in our lives.

You ask, "How can I dismiss my sins and seek a place in heaven" You cant as it is not of works that man can do. However by believing in the Lord Jesus Christ and accepting him as Saviour you accept the work done on the cross in your place. Jesus died that we who believe would have eternal life. The price for all our sins has been paid and to guarantee our place in heaven we have to accept by faith that payment.

I believe your a brave man to open your heart and soul here. I also believe your search for filling that void in your life can be achieved through prayer for guidance from God.

I am praying for you, praying for God the Holy Spirit will continue convicting your heart to seek the truth.

[SKP]

http://www.lancasterbaptist.org/whatwebelieve.asp

The above link has a video at the bottom of the website page that explains much of this ifish discussion. This is my friend, Paul Chappell speaking. Paul and I went to the same school and college as kids.

Here's another good resource: http://www.lancasterbaptist.org/featured.done.asp

I hope this helps.

SKP

[Mad Mikey]

RVW,

My perspective is that historical backing of the Bible and prophesies PROVES the Bible is the one and only source of information you need. Revelations has a short verse about adding or taking away from it.

Many "alternate" religions and even some of the more recognized faiths practice things I can't find in my Bible.

That said, you don't need church to be saved(although it is recommended), living a good life is nice but it won't stand up at the final judgement.

I don't have it handy but there is a verse from the NT warning that "Many will come in my name, and many will be decieved."

Check out Chuck Misslers site: http://www.khouse.org/

I have viewed the first 2 parts of "The Roots of War", part three is on the way. They are not sermons, rather a fascinating illustration of fullfilled prophesy. Much of the prophesies came from the OLD Testament and nailed exact times and dates of Christ's birth, his entrance to Jerusalem and the crucifiction.

Proof positive that the Bible is right on.

So, if you realize the Bible is 100% accurate with respect to history and prophesy the rest of it has to be spot on.

The good book is your only resource, nothing more nothing less.

I have been a back-slider, on and off and will readily admit it. I ain't perfect but am rock solid in my belief that everything in the OT/NT is true.

I'd die before denying it.

Sorry you are having your doubts, Satan likes to plant those seeds.

Good luck and God bless.

PS, I'll gladly mail you the DVD's if you like.

[Grantspastor]

Over the past few years I have read and appreciated your reflective and thoughtful posts R v W. This is another one. You said you felt "lost" and to be perfectly blunt you are. You can be "found" in a big hurry tho. You say you tried Christianity, but I don't think you really have. Bottom line is Jesus is the answer you are looking for. The Bible is a road map to Jesus. The people here that say their lives have been changed by Jesus are not whistling Dixie. He can change yours too. There are are Bible "scholars" who miss the whole point of the Bible. Why don't you just pray to Jesus and ask for help. He won't let you down, and I know you won't do it unless you really mean business. If I can help answer questions out of the public forum PM me. O.K. if I pray for you?

Pastor Dave

[fergy61]

If you really & truly want to know the truth, pray & ask God to give you the answers & he will provide them.:pray:

[Uglygreen]

Don't look for faith in the Bible, lots of good stuff there, but I never found a formula for faith itself. Instead you might try looking for faith in the world around you. In your life expierience and that of others. I don't see that God expects blind faith from you, me, or anyone else in this world. Think back over your life, think of the best things that have happened in your life, can you see the hand of God working at those times? I can in my life. Now think back to the low points in your life, were those the times you were trying to go it alone and didn't include God? They sure were for me.

My faith is based on what I have personally seen in the world around me, not what I have read in the Bible. Most of the time my faith is strong, yet sometimes it weakens. When it weakens I can sit back, reflect, and remind myself about the past times in my life when I have seen the hand of God working in the world around me. I can make it a point to slow down and look at my immediate world and notice how God is working in it today. Just little things sometimes... And sure there is a lot in the Bible that I can't explain, and frankly some things that make no sense at all to me. But I also have seen miracles happen in the world around me that I can't explain, things that make no sense at all to me. Things that have no rational explaination other than God. Thats the key to my faith.

And seeing that God is working in my life today... trying to come up with rational explanations for events from thousands of years ago so they somehow make sense becomes a whole lot less important. I can just enjoy the story and look for the message it contains instead of trying to figure out how it happened.

I always liked the story about the ship out of fresh water.

As I recall the story, in the 1800’s a Portuguese sailing vessel was heading to Brazil. The schooner got caught in the doldrums of the Atlantic Ocean—a dreaded fate of no wind for weeks that could be fatal to ship and crew. The trip had taken longer than expected and they were precariously close to running out of water. All onboard were getting severely dehydrated—and they were still hundreds of miles from port. Just as the commander began to realize they weren’t going to survive another day with the water left on board, the aft lookout spotted another clipper. But since neither had the wind to sail closer to the other, the two sloops had to resort to their naval flag system to communicate.

The captain of the troubled vessel commanded the flagman to hoist the message, “We’re out of water. Do you have water?” Immediately, the second ship signaled back, “Drop your bucket right where you are!”

Wow! How incomprehensible, unfathomable, and seemingly pitiless that reply must have seemed to the men dying of thirst. Eventually, both perplexed and out of options and perhaps even sanity, the captain of the distressed vessel declared to his one of his men "What the hell, just do what they say!" So, in the course of a now historical discovery, the Portuguese sailor found that when he drew his bucket back up from the placid sea, the bucket was filled with fresh drinkable water!

You see, today we know the volume of flow of the Amazon River flowing into the Atlantic is so great that the river current carries fresh water hundreds of miles out into the ocean, saving this crew—and hundreds more over the years to come—from certain death from the doldrums and dehydration.

Sometimes the very goals we seek are close at hand, only we get blinded by our ideas about what form the achievement of these goals will take. That seems to happen a lot in my spiritual life actually. Probably more so than in regular life. I guess now days I kinda just look forward to being susprised. Oh, and I can't prove that any of the story above is historically accurate or even ever happened, but I still like it. Somehow that seems very appropriate to this thread and your question.

- Brad

[Bartman]

Don't look for faith in the Bible you won't find the formula there. Instead you might try looking for faith in the world around you. In your life expierience and that of others. I don't see that God expects blind faith from you, me, or anyone else in this world. Think back over your life, think of the best things that have happened in your life, can you see the hand of God working at those times? I can in my life. Now think back to the low points in your life, were those the times you were trying to go it alone and didn't include God? They sure were for me.

My faith is based on what I have personally seen in the world around me, not what I have read in the Bible. Most of the time it is strong, sometimes it weakens. When it weakens I can sit back, reflect, and remind myself about the past times in my life when I have seen the hand of God working in the world around me. I can make it a point to slow down and look at my immediate world and notice how God is working in it today. Just little things sometimes... And sure there is a lot in the Bible that I can't explain, and frankly some things that make no sense at all to me. But I also have seen miracles happen in the world around me that I can't explain, things that make no sense at all to me. Things that have no rational explaination other than God. Thats the key to my faith.


Very insightful and very well said. The divine is all around us, its usually us who arent "in tune" enough to hear and see.

[Get Bit]

Row vs. Wade,

Have you read the books by Lee Strobel?Once an atheist/journalist, now a Christian/journalist. Set out to disprove the Bible and ended up a believer. Has some really great stuff. Here's the link.... http://www.leestrobel.com/

[fishnwHim]

RVW, The first thing I would like to say is Thank You, you have no idea what your post has done for my Faith. I spent the first day after you posted it contemplating what I could say that would have meaning or value. I thought of many things and I spent a lot of time asking myself about my own Christianity. My conclusions were along the lines of what Brad had to say. My relationship with Jesus isn't about the Bible, Church, or what anyone might say I ought to do , it is a personal relationship and only depends on my spending time with Jesus ! I listen to that small still voice that I choose to believe is God dwelling within me, I walk with Him and I stand beside streams and marvel at His creation , and I tell Him how much I appreciate it. He is always with me and will never let me down. He is my friend and Savior and no matter what I do , or how bad I act, He still loves and accepts me. It is a simple relationship, as I have said here in AC many times , I am not a religious man, I am a simple man , that simply loves Jesus ! I have read many of your posts over the last few years and I have seen evidence of God in your life. I recall a story about a child you helped catch a fish that touched me, as I am sure it touched others. You can lay down the bible if you want but I believe that God is still in your life, He won't force you to spend time with Him, but I am confident that He is waiting for you. Thanks again for causing me to examine my own Faith. I truly wish you well on your search.
sincerely, Dave

[RvW]

Just wanted to ring in and acknowledge all of the posts here. I have read each of the replies several times. It is quite a lot to absorb.
Ive settled on the idea that I am "taking a break" from this inner struggle.
Brad. I was moved.

[Tinman]

I think God is big enough to adore an earnest seeker like you, regardless of what labels you use for the current state of your faith.

I am a committed Christian, but I certainly do not take the bible literally. The bible was written during a time when all writing was assumed to be full of metaphor, symbolisim and myth. The hundreds of people who wrote the bible over a 1000 year span never intended it to be taken literally.

That being said, the bible is full of truth. Again and again, the new testament tells us to love our neighbor as ourselves. This is a great truth. Another great truth is to not judge each other.

You might read "Meeting Jesus Again for the Very First Time", by Marcus Borg.

[Dullhook]

I am a committed Christian, but I certainly do not take the bible literally. The bible was written during a time when all writing was assumed to be full of metaphor, symbolisim and myth. The hundreds of people who wrote the bible over a 1000 year span never intended it to be taken literally.


This is a very interesting statement Tinman. Just curious on how you arrived at this conclusion or what it is based upon?

This is not asked out of contention, but rather as a point of edification. :flowered:

[joemomma]

Beware of the world!

[samiam]

Bottom line up front - I recommend you keep opening the Bible and that you involve yourself in acts of service, i.e. homeless shelter work, volunteer for activities that will challenge you to give (your precious time, or make you deal with people less fortunate than yourself). Go to churches and be around people. Go to churches on their specialty group nights, i.e. men's night. I was raised in a religious family, and I specifically say religious instead of christian. I thought I was a christian from kindergarten until about a year ago. I'm 35. God brought me to face the crisis I'd created in my life. For the past year I've tried to formulate my plan to witness to people I know, but I find it difficult since my own testimony is one of God bringing me to my knees in order for me to make the change. I was the unwilling sinner. For months following my decision to follow Christ I thought I was invincible, but now I've settled into a daily battle with the world and all its influences. To my suprise I've found that this is where I prefer to be. I feel that God gracefully lifted the influences of the world off of me for a short time while I solidified my heart for God. Now I feel "armed" to meet the world daily and survive, and possibly even be a tool for God to use. I screw up more times daily than I prefer to recall. Bad attitudes, laziness, judgemental thoughts, and sometimes actions I regret. However, I know Christ died once to pay for all my sins, past, present and future. I don't need to keep guilting myself into despair over every little mistake I make - it's paid for. Guilt can be an efficient tool for Satan if left unresolved. Amazing when my head hits the pillow and I don't have to worry about eternity. I think my pastor told me that salvation is free, but following Christ costs lots. The "cost" is all the worldy things/actions that I should forego in order to live a Godly life. Most of the time it's easy, but there's always a "crunch time" just around the next corner of my day to challenge me. He reminds me how dependent I should be on Him for strength, and not myself. I'm weak and I'll never succeed on my own. I'll never gain entrance to Heaven by anything I could ever do, other than believe that Christ paid the entrance fee. One of the most important decisions I made was to spend more time around groups of Christians. Sometimes I feel like being around Christians is pure joy, other times I feel like I'm taking myself to the ER for some emergency care (for my soul, or theirs). Fellowship at church, mens' retreats, and simply guarding my free time to be spent with other christian men one-on-one. While I do spend lots of time with non-christians, I know that it causes me temptation. I know God doesn't want to work through me to save someone else, while losing me. Never before have I been so sensitive to all the garbage in the world. Never before have I noticed that Christ is everywhere in the world. It's incredibly refreshing to spend time with other christians, and lock the "world" out for a while. PM me if you ever feel like talking more about it. I've prayed for you.

[Tinman]

Dullhook:
There are several reasons I say the Bible is full of metaphor and symbolism, and its writers did not intend it to be taken literally.

First, note that Jesus himself taught in parable and metaphor. The word of God is like seed, some is eaten by birds, some sprouts in rocky places and quickly dies,etc. This is clearly metaphor. He says his Father's house has many rooms, and He goes to prepare one for us. Surely this does not mean that heaven is merely a giant house that God lives in, and we each have our own room. Jesus says we are the sheep, and he is the shepard. Again, not literally true, but a rich metaphor for us to ponder.

Throughout the Bible we find metaphor. Are we really just a puff of wind like the Psalmist says? Metaphor again. Are we really just grass, here today, and burned up and gone tomorrow? Such words are rich in meaning for us, but the meaning is a bit deeper than the literal. Is the story of Jonah a simple tale of a man swallowed by a fish and later spat up unharmed? Or is the meaning deeper; perhaps it is yet another version of the lesson of death and ressurection. It is another way God reveals that we must die to our old selves, and be reborn. These deeper truths do not come from a literal reading.

Second, consider Christian tradition. For the last 1400 years, Christian monasteries around the world taught a method of reading scripture called Lectio Divina, with the goal of seeking the deeper (nonliteral) meaning of scripture. For example, //www.valyermo.com/ld-art.html. By contrast, the American fundamentalist movement, which teaches literal interpretation of the Bible, is only about 100 years old. Non-literal Bible reading, as evidenced by Lectio Divina, has existed around the Christian world for 14 centuries.

And finally, it is impossible to describe an infinite God using language of any sort. That is why people use art, music, poetry, metaphor and parable to describe God. That is why Jesus himself spoke in parable. It is the only way to describe God in words and of course it falls far short of the truth. The writers of the Bible understood this.

To glean the true meaning of the Bible, we must look much deeper than the literal meaning. It is truly a life's work.

[Uglygreen]

Wow, well said! :agree:

- Brad

[Dullhook]

Tinman: Firstly, thank you for your reply! :wave:

Bible is full of metaphor and symbolism, and its writers did not intend it to be taken literally.


I'd first like to say that I'm not a Bible expert but just another sinner that gets his hands greasy at work every day. I don't comprehend everything that's written with total understanding but do have very strong feelings on this subject. :)

I wonder as Christians if we're not treading on dangerous ground if "we" attempt on our own to decipher what is fact or what is metaphor in the scriptures? The Bible is central to the Christian faith as it is the true word and life of God. It has already been carefully translated out of three different languages and scrutinized and studied over and over again to present the exact meaning of each word before being presented to us.

Therefore all written has to be believed, received, and obeyed as fact and as all things pertaining to life and Godliness. We can't interpret the Bible's prophesy, history or science symbolically when a literal interpretation is stated.

For example when it was stated that God created the heavens and earth and all that creep upon it in six days...that's exactly what it means... six 24 hour days. This is translated from the Hebrew word "yom". Many attempt to put their own spin on this with old earth vs new earth creationism but the Bible clearly states six days and through faith I except this.

The Bible writers were inspired by God to write His truth through the Holy Spirit. The word inspired means "God-Breathed". The Greek word is theopneautis, from two Greek words Theos meaning "God" and pneo meaning to breathe. The writers themselves are irrelevant since it was God speaking through them. Myth does not translate into God's truth.

Jesus bears witness to the Bible's inerrancy where He emphasizes that the actual words of scripture can be trusted, not just the ideas they contain! Remember when He used the power of the Word to defeat Satan when he tempted Him? Matthew 4:1-11

Was the great flood and Noah's ark merely "symbolism"?
Was the crucifixion of Jesus a "metaphor"?
Was His resurrection by the Father a "myth"?

What criteria do you use to determine fact from fiction? Truth from myth?
Are we qualified to make these decisions or is it best to accept God's Word exactly as it's written?

This is something we must all decide and it's a very critical decision.

Peace, Dh.

[RvW]

Oh boy!
Dullhook, I think youve defined and elaborated on my confusion better than I have myself.

Im the kind of guy that needs direction and instruction spelled out to me in black and white most of the time. Metaphor takes me an incredible amount of time to absorb and understand.

I guess the point of that was, if I know something is designed to work, I can make it work.

Whether the bible works or not: I have no idea how it might work....which is the foundation of my discouragement. It is so much easier to question than it is to accept.

[Uglygreen]

"He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the hearts of men; yet they cannot fathom what God has done from beginning to end." - Ecclesiastes 3:11

As men, we are not supposed to understand it. That's good enough for me. :)

For example: I wonder what is a day, an hour, a minute... to a eternal being? Can the term 'day' or even time itself time itself even have meaning to a God that is timeless? God created it, and created it all, and created us in his image. That is all that is important to me. I guess I am just not going to worry about weather a 'day' in the existance of God is 24 hours or a Billion years. For me it seems kind of pointless and self defeating to try to define God inside the box of human expierience.

- Brad

[Uglygreen]

Are we qualified to make these decisions or is it best to accept God's Word exactly as it's written?

I DO think each person is qualified to make those decisions for their own lives. To me, that is one of the very core principals of Jesus teachings. I see some spiritual truths as being subjective; meaning that they are valid for some, but not for others. I believe that it is Gods sovereign right to define the nature of His relationship with people other than myself. I choose not to trespass on sovereign rights that belong to God. I cannot define the nature of the personal relationship between a man and God, nor do I believe can any other human being. Its very essence is the personal nature of it. I can't pretend that divine action is confined within the limited boundaries of my understanding.

- Brad

[Dullhook]

I'm the kind of guy that needs direction and instruction spelled out to me in black and white most of the time. Metaphor takes me an incredible amount of to absorb and understand.


That makes two of us RvW. I feel same way!

God tells us this in the book of Jeremiah. Sorry I can't remember the chapter and verse.........."The way of man is not in himself. It is not in man who walks to direct his own steps."

I can tell you that at one time in my life I was near death both spiritually and physically. I had lived my life the way I thought was best only trying to satisfy my own carnal desires. Failed "lust affairs" (not love affairs), drug use, and trying to figure things out on my own just didn't work. I found myself in extreme depression and didn't care whether I lived or died. There was no self-esteem or purpose to life whatsoever. Advice from others including family members only caused more confusion and made things worse.

One night in bed I finally called out to Jesus for help and said my own choppy rendition of the sinners prayer. At that point there was nothing else to lose. I remember finally falling asleep in tears.

Waking up the next day I felt a little better although this was no "flash of bright light" instant conversion into righteousness. In the next few days it seemed like I could hear and see God's message appearing around me. The sky looked a little bluer and the flowers had a sweet smell about them. Turning on the tv...there would be Adrian Rodgers or David Jeremiah preaching about God's love and the Kingdom of God. All of these things were there before but my eyes couldn't seem them or ears hear them.

Wow! This stuff is really starting to make sense! I gradually had an intense desire to pick up and read the Bible. At one time this book made about as much sense (to myself) as a Tokyo telephone book. I started out with the "Living Bible" which was easy to read and understand to my not too bright mind. :)

Our walk with Jesus takes time and is not an easy road, especially at first. There many temptations presented in this world and Satan would like nothing better than to have us revert back to our old ways. The more we are able to resist and submit to God's ways ..the easier it becomes. I still have a long way to go on this journey but I have an unwavering friend to take my hand and lead me. There is now peace in my life for the first time thanks only to my beloved Lord and Savior.

Well RvW, I have to get ready for work now. In closing I would like to tell you that everything in the Bible is truth as defined by God. When the Bible tells us the God parted the Red Sea to make way for His people...that's what happened. When He tells us that Mary was a virgin visited by an angel and impregnated by His Holy Spirit with His Son the Messiah...that's the way it was! When He tells us that His way is the way to the Father and Kingdom of God...He speaks the truth. God didn't write the Bible to confuse or deceive us, that's Satan's desire. He wrote it to reveal Himself and give us absolute laws and guidance to live our lives by.

I believe this with all of my heart and soul. Blessings to you....Dennis. :angel:

[Bartman]

Searching for the Divine truths in our religious writings, has been a great part of my spiritual journey, it has had a couple of very fullfilling effects, the most important being that it has greatly improved my relationship with the divine, once I got past being told what that relationship should be, and started searching for myself, my relationship grew 100 fold. another "side effect" has been my increase in knowledge, spending time meditating, pondering, etc. has not only made my spiritual walk MUCH more personal, but has helped me to truly learn more obout the Divine truths in our world.

[Tinman]

Dullhook, you say the Bible gives us absolute laws to live our lives by. How do you handle Exodus and Leviticus?


Ex. 31:15 Whosoever that doeth any work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death

Ex 21:17 He that curseth his father or mother, he shall surely be put to death

Lev 20:10 And the man who committeth adultery with another man's wife, the adulterer and adulteress shall surely be put to death

[Uglygreen]

Perhaps the "Is the Bible inerrant or should the Bible be taken literally in every circumstance" part of this discussion should move to its own thread?

- Brad

[PapaHog]

Dullhook, you say the Bible gives us absolute laws to live our lives by. How do you handle Exodus and Leviticus?

Tinman look at the last verse of the book of Leviticus.

[Dullhook]

Dullhook, you say the Bible gives us absolute laws to live our lives by. How do you handle Exodus and Leviticus?


These laws were before the New Covenant of Grace, Tinman.

Matthew 5:17-18...." Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am come not to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no way pass from the law, till all is fulfilled."

Jesus fulfilled the Torah's law through His life, death, and resurrection.

[joemomma]

DullHook, Wow, Your a tool! Good Job! :)

[eddie haskel]

What is "it" we search for.....?

By its very nature, subjective at best, when viewed through the eyes of man.
In Proverbs it states..."A good man shall be satisfied from himself"

The soul's great quest is for satisfaction. It ranges the heavens and earth in search of that which will secure rest.

Considering only the earnest soul that is not content with things earthly, there is demanded...Truth, that is comprehensive and therefore capable of regulating thought and life, and that is inexhaustible and therefore secures progress and a conscience that is purified and enlightening.

Sometimes the mistake is made of thinking that these satisfying elements may be generated within man. The teaching of Holy Scriptures is that the power for the acquisition of all that finally satisfies comes from God.

To be satisfied one must "drink for his own cistern," not another's. The cistern is filled by the rains of Heaven. But the cistern is one's own. It is my faith, my devotion, my trust which will give the deep satisfaction that stabilizes and comforts my soul...

[rimrock]

I’m very saddened to read of your abandonment of Jesus. From your post I’ve taken some time to read and study a good measure of the “Skeptics Bible” website. It’s sad to see how unfairly and how inappropriate they have rendered the alleged inconsistencies. They have little to no understanding of the language but claim to be authoritative. Really quite sad how they are confusing those who are seeking God.

On one hand you must understand the Bible is a very difficult book, no one could ever exhaust the theology contained within it for God is inexhaustible so that surely makes sense. And on the other it is as simple as “Jesus loves me this I know, for the Bible tells me so.” A great truth, possibly the greatest! That the God of all creation does in fact love those He created and desires to know and be known by them. Truly amazing!

Can faith be discouraging? Yes, so don’t think you are alone. I’m reminded of Martin Luther, one of the great reformers of the church. During one of his classes a student spoke up on how simple the truths of Scripture are upon which Luther was teaching; the foundation of faith is so easy to understand he claimed because after all it is a gift from God. Luther turned to him and said, “So you think faith is easy?”

I’m here to tell you it’s not going to be easy. The Bible doesn’t speak to all things, all issues, and all areas of life that’s not its purpose. It’s the story of the redemption of mankind. It’s about who God is and what God has done and is still doing for you. A simple sentence to write but a great challenge to work out, but God never expected you to work it out on your own. It’s fine to be discouraged and it’s quite normal, but the only and I mean the only place you will ever find hope and peace is in Jesus Christ. And that is my prayer for you.

[dlgobeavs]

It’s fine to be discouraged and it’s quite normal, but the only and I mean the only place you will ever find hope and peace is in Jesus Christ. And that is my prayer for you.

I am trying hard not to offend those of you who believe differently than I do, so please know that I truly believe each and every person has the right to believe what they feel is right for them.

That said, making a statement that the only path to "hope and peace is in Jesus Christ" is just not accurate. I find hope and peace in my daily life and it has nothing to do with any belief in a "god".

There are other ways to live a good decent life without pledging a belief in that which is not even remotely varifiable. I understand that for you Rimrock... religion is what works. But, for me and I can only speak for myself, I imagine that I feel the same comfort in not being involved in religion as you do being ensconced in it.

I guess the point I was trying to make more than anything, is that if his journey takes him to a place where he no longer feels the need to pledge a belief in "god", he can know that arriving at that place has for me been a very liberating experience, so there is a chance the same would be true for him.

There are other options which can lead to internal peace.

Respectfully

Dave

[wishin]

There are other options which can lead to internal peace.

Respectfully

Dave

The respect that you worked so hard to convey in your post definately came through. I appreciate how carefully you had to work on your post to do so.

I agree completely with the last line in your message, quoted above. Indeed, many options can lead to internal peace, but my belief is that only one will lead to eternal peace. I mean, that really is the core Christian belief. To express otherwise is to deny my faith. Judging from your post, this statement probably does not offend you because you say you don't have an oar in the water when it comes to God anyway. I don't respect you any less as a human being. My heart bleeds for your eternal life, but again that is my belief, and I respect your decision not to believe in an afterlife. I appreciate your good will and graciousness in this life. And, if you ever want to take another look at this Christian thing and eternal peace, give a shout out.

Oh, and R v W, you can't go too far wrong perking up your ears and listening to Rimrock. He is a good person to visit with about eternal life, even if he isn't Catholic! :)

Best regards,

Mike

[Tinman]

Row, I did not intend to start a debate about Bible interpretation...sorry for sidetracking the thread. I wish you the very best in your spiritual search. Peace be with you.

[pinkfly]

I have not read all of the posts on this thread and what I would like to say may have already been mentioned.

If you believe in God then you must believe that God is very powerful to have made the world and all that is in it. God can hear your prayers and will answer them in time. Pray for your answer and you will receive it. Just have an open heart and mind so that you may recognize this answer when it comes.

[Bartman]

If you believe in God then you must believe that God is very powerful to have made the world and all that is in it. God can hear your prayers and will answer them in time. Pray for your answer and you will receive it. Just have an open heart and mind so that you may recognize this answer when it comes.

:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: Very good advice!!

[in 'em]

RvW,

Perhaps the reason God is leading you through this time in your life is to touch the lives of many who can relate to you through this scenario. You have touched lives here on Ifish and likely in other circles as well through your honesty and reflection on life.

I too have doubts in my walk with Christ and through it all, I know Christ is shaping and forming me to be a light to those who can be reached by me through my life experiences.

I also have learned that humanity greatly reduces the reality of Satan and his work in everyday life. Doubt comes from Satan, the desire to not read the Bible comes from Satan, so many thougts and desires come from the evil one...we need to fight that! Nothing ticks Satan off more than what you're doing right now...opening up your heart for the Truth, seeking Christian wisdom (as we all need, not jsut when we're having troubles) and a desire to find meaning in this life and eternity with your Creator. As you said, we all sin and don't deserve heaven, but if you belive in what God did for us, our sole will live for eternity after our fleshly, sinful, human form dies in this world.

Don't give up, don't underestimate the power of Satan, know that you can reach many for Christ through the toughest times and from what you learn in those times.

Thank you for your post.

[samiam]

I second that remark. This thread has impacted me in a positive way.

[TroutGirl]

This is a really interesting topic.

First off, even if you cannot "accept" the bible as all fact, I don't think this means you must reject it. There is no need for you to make a vow to never read it again, because so far you have not found what you seek. I think there is some place where you can keep it under consideration, without placing such a burden on yourself. Seems to me that because you have not yet found a similar emotion to what others have experienced, you view your time with this book as a failure. Time in consideration of these things is never a failure.

Faith is a muscle that can be exercised. There are all kinds of faith. Faith in your community, faith that spring will bring seeds to sprout, faith in your family, faith that if you go fishing you will someday catch a fish.

When you begin to recognize that many many things in your life cannot be indipustably proven and yet you proceed on "faith," you'll begin to realize that faith is decision that you make. As you begin to look at your life and see the constant acts of faith that you have, you'll find faith is much more attainable than you realize. You have faith that the sun will rise tomorrow? Really, reasonably, you have no evidence of it, you are taking a leap to think that. Faith can be simple and small. Faith can be large. Find the faith that you do have and begin to realize the relief that it brings to you. The solace of not worrying so much. As you begin to realize how the small acts of faith lift weight from your shoulders, I think you'll find examples of bigger acts of faith that you have taken. And remember that faith does not mean you will not suffer. Suffering can happen even in the midst of faith. But just think how much deeper suffering can be if you didn't have any faith at all.

Awe. Awe is another emotion that we equate with the divine. I think what many people experience at moments of religious intensity is awe. Something so magnificent and big, you realize your mind can barely grasp a small bit of that power. If you're waiting for a book to cause awe, I think you'll wait for a long time. I imagine reading a book could do it for a few folks, but most folks experience that wonder in other places. The shepherds experienced awe watching their fields by night, not reading a book.

I've experienced awe so many times its uncountable. None of it actually came with a Bible or other religious text in my hands. But I know awe important to me. In fact its so important that I must go seek that feeling regularly. I've paid attention, I've learned, I find it in the mountains, in the rivers, in the sky and stars, and often in music. I know where I find it. Because I've paid attention and can find it and be restored by it, I've got faith. I have faith that in a moment, my heart and eyes can be opened. That in a moment things can shift, problems solved, burden lifted, and my heart lightened. That sense of power, of largeness, of gift, of infinity......it change my perspective. I've had to practice to find this. I've had to learn where and how my soul can become free enough to experience it. And faith has made me whole. Its not faith in the bible though. I have faith in God. And I find God in many things, in many places.

Love, is the other thing I think we often expect to experience. Often in religious pursuit, we expect to have faith, then awe, and then overwhelming love. Once again, I think that love is something you practice finding. And it is most hard to experience being loved when you cannot find for yourself, that you are perfectly you, as God intended. Experiencing loving something is profound. And realize that loving something doesn't mean that something is perfect. When you realize you can love an imperfect person, your child, your lover, your parents, your friend, then can you experience being loved yourself? Being Love, is a wholely different thing than the cry for someone to love you. If there is something to learn from Christ's life, I would say his constant pursuit of just being love-- The embodiement of love. Its a very different thing to do things as the embodiement of love, than to do things in order to be loved. Its a very hard thing, a pure thing, a miracle. And if you look, you can see moments in each person you know, where they have done it for a bit of time, for a moment. But to keep returning and strectching those moments into more and more time, I think that is what Christ did better than all of us. And he did not say that we were incapable of it. So, we are free to pursue it. Because you have failed, does not mean that you cannot continue to pursue and experience the message of love- being love in the world.

My own bible sits fairly dusty on the shelf. It still has the gold leaf scrawl of my name on it, that I did when I was eight. It has notes in it from when I was in college. And mostly it sits. I'm not worried about it. Its there if I need it. I don't feel commanded to read it daily, weekly, yearly.
It also sits with the Tao Te Ching, the Bhagvad Gita, The Prophet, and several buddhist writings. I will never throw it away. And likely I will continue to read philosophy and religious texts the rest of my life. I enjoy it. I've really enjoyed this discussion here. Everyone has been wonderfully respectful. This is a good place.

Good luck in your journey.