Sandy Hatchery Fish Decision

[ssteelheadsteve]

In a surprise move the ODF&W Comm. has decided to take pubilic testimony at the Feb.19 Meeting.Written comments will be taken until Feb.19.Let them know your not happy with the staff proposal.OUR fish need to be planted in Troutdale where they will have even less impact on the Wild fish.The acclimation pond at Marmot was ill fated from the begining as it is too high in the Basin.It should no longer be used because PGE has convinced others that a large contingent of wild fish use the area we know as the slaughter hole for spawning.There is NO Science to prove that any wild fish use this area for spawning.Huge numbers of hatchery WS have always held/spawned in this area.

FYI

What they are not telling you is that there is no way they can obtain anywhere near the number of eggs needed for the 2001 broodstock program to produce the 160,000 WS smolt production promised.Can't Happen unless the wild return this year is huge.They can only take a certain % of the wild fish at Marmot.The rest must spawn naturally.You didn't want to hear that did you ? Then don't read the REEL TRUTH.

[This message has been edited by ssteelheadsteve (edited 01-20-2001).]

[wiser]

I'm certainly no biologist but I was under the assumption a female steelhead in the Sandy should produce 4,000 eggs each. At that rate 40 hens would produce 160,000 eggs. I don't know what egg to smolt survival rate is either but I would guess at least 75%. That would translate to a need for 50 females for 160,000 smolt. Double that for males needed and you get 100. It would seem that 100 wild fish would be available for this purpose. Oh wise ones please educate us. There must be someone reading who knows the biology.
I sure hadn't heard the PGE piece you talk of sssteve. I didn't hear of them saying anything like that at the public meetings or during the steering committee meetings. Also, has the Commission also changed the next Commission meeting date? I thought it was the 16th of Feb.? They normally meet on Friday?



[This message has been edited by Young Salt (edited 01-20-2001).]

[ssteelheadsteve]

DO YOU REALLY THINK PGE WOULD TELL THE TRUTH ABOUT ANYTHING IF IT WAS NOT IN THEIR BEST INTEREST ?

The question is how many "wild", and I use that term very loosely when refering to Sandy WS will the whachos let ODF&W take out of the river before a lawsuit is brought by individuals,organizations or NMFS ?
Many( guess who) believe that no fish should be taken from the stream for any purpose.Certainly not for "hatchery " production.
The meetings you mentioned.Do you really think the people who are running those meetings are in the business of revealing information ? How much "data" have you ever seen at those meetings ? It takes a FOIA request to get the REEL TRUTH.Even then some of the data is "Protected".What comes form the lips of the meeting organizers is often different than what the data would indicate.
As for the fucundity of Sandy WS I would tend to believe that the number you refer to is somewhat outdated. Keep in mind that the NWPPC data indicates that fecundity region wide has decreased by 36% over the last 30 years.Keep in mind that egg production is somewhat limited by fish size.Have you seen a large number of 12-18 lb Sandy WS lately.Keep in mind that 20 years ago a 18-19 lb Sandy WS was not a big deal.They were everywhere in March-May.Very common.Seen any lately ?

The letter I received Friday from ODF&W I&E said the Meeting will be on Feb. 19.Perhaps they were in error. It should be on the 16th. I am sure YOU will check it out.

Inconclusion friend please note that there is a great deal of information that no one is talking about.Partly because only a handfull of people have followed this issue for the last 30 years and that knowledge was hard to come by.
Does the return on 160,000 WS plant really constitute a viable fishery in one of the top 3 most fished streams in the state ?

If the genitics were correct those fish would return Nov.-May.How many fish per month does that make available to the Anglers ?

Got to go check my smoker.Tough going here in Troutdale with the E Wind.L Jensen needs to put hotter elements in their smokers.


[This message has been edited by ssteelheadsteve (edited 01-20-2001).]

[ssteelheadsteve]

Did you ever hear any mention of the Marmot Pool with respect to it's importance to Wild Coho production ? Rearing and overwintering ?

I'll Bet $------- not
Just 1 of many issues not mentioned.
If it was mentioned then I am sure it was not acted upon.PGE will get what they want.

Do you think I should turn my smoker off so some body in CA can run their pool pump ?

[wiser]

I heard ODFW took about 100 non-finclipped fish and spawned them last year. I didn't hear of any "whatchos" filing law suits over that.
I only participate on this board to try and learn and sometimes relate an experience. I really don't appreciate being yelled at. (That is the way you are projecting yourself to me with the capital letters.) That is also one reason I don't post my e-mail. It seems some people want to take this to a personal level. Anything I want to express, I feel the BB can be used to pass on. When I referred to "wise ones" I was only asking of others who might have better information.

[ZaQ]

Hot topic no doubt!
Where are you getting this information?

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Fish this!
ZaQ (http://zaq.4mg.com)

[wiser]

ZaQ,
There are many sources of information. Some are better than others. Most seem to be somewhat biased one way or the other. When I write about something I don't know for sure, I state that I heard it. That way I hope it will provoke a response if someone thinks it's incorrect. I know I can hear things that aren't true or relate them incorrectly.
I get ask questions and get information from a variety of sources. To list a few.

---ODFW Staff Jim Muck is the District Biologist for the Sandy and Clackamas River systems, Jason Flory was the planner who put together the 1997 Ammendmant Plan.
--USFS Dan Shively is one of their chief biologists working on the Sandy.
---City of Portland Water Bureau, Steve Kucas has a lot of information.
---PGE, Doug Cramer has worked around the Sandy and Clackamas projects for years and is an avid fisherman.John Eischler, who is both involved in the Marmot project and sits on the ODFW Commission is also a good source of information.
---Fishermen, they also know a lot about what's going on. Of course, like everyone you need to consider the source.
---Guides, Mark Bachman from the Fly fishing Shop in Welches, Jack Glass, Mike Dooley, Barry Buckland, and Trevor Storlie are a few of the Sandy River regulars who depend on the salmon resources of the Sandy for part of their income, generally devote a lot of time on the issues and are eager to talk about them.
---Northwest Steelheaders Members, sandy steel is a regular contributor to this board. Norm Ritchie has been heavily involved.
--- Conservation groups, Native Fish Society(Bill Bakkee), Oregon Trout(Jason Minor & Jim Myron), American Rivers(Brett Swift) and Trout Unlimited (Tom Wolf) are a few of the individuals and their organizations, that have been involved and know the issues.
--- Watershed Councils, Sandy River Watershed Council(Russ Plaeger coordinator) has been gathering information and staying involved.
--- Other Government groups, Metro(Charlie Ciecko parks Director) City of Portland( Eric Sten councilor)
-- Mailing lists for info on studies, activities ect. (Patrick Hulett Washington Fisheries Dept)(COPE Hatfield Marine Science Center)(NWPPC "Update")("Riverkeeper" Oregon Trout newsletter)("Sprouts" USFS newsletter)

This is just a short list of who has information that I have talked to. Most of these people are surprisingly accessable. No one has all the information, none of these people are completely right or wrong but to get a better idea of the condition of the resource one should try to look at all the positions then determine what their own needs are. Recover wild fish at all costs, provide angling opportunity or a balance of these and possibly other needs.
Then the most important thing is to let the decision makers know what you want.
That's what I think about the issues, who I try to gather information from and what I do.
Good Luck to the resource. Some of that will be needed too.

The most current management plan for the Sandy is available at the Clackamas office of ODFW. I,m sure it's available for viewing and may be available for sale or loan from their library. It is titled the 1997 Sandy River Basin Management Plan. 503-657-2000. Good background information and current action plan. This is the document that is being ammended in anticipation of Marmot and Little Sandy Dam removal and in response to ESA listings.

[This message has been edited by Young Salt (edited 01-21-2001).]

[BillH]

I have a lot of concerns about this Sandy River Issue. I fished the upper Sandy heavily from the late '50's through the early '70's before moving to the coast. I feel it is a valuable fishery to be available to metro area anglers. I was horrified today to call the PGE fishline (503-=464-7474) where they report that only 7 wild steelies have been passed upstream this winter. Is that all that have entered the traps or have they removed some or many for the hatchery???? I truly feel that utilization of Sandy River broodstock for hatchery production is the best solution for the future in spite of the opinion of the "wild fish *****". As I recall, only the largest of hens would produce 4000 eggs. I think you will find the average of egg production at between 2500-3000 per hen. In the "old days" we caught what seemed to be primarily hatchery fish from Thanksgiving through January or early February when the composition of the run seemed to change drastically. By mid March it seemed to be almost all wild fish but for a few lingering hatchery bucks in rather grubby shape. Back then, very little fin clipping was done but when you looked at the Sandy fish you could get a pretty good idea of what you were catching if you also fished Big Creek a lot -- where those hatchery fish came from. Does anyone have any of the past few years stats on fish passage at Marmot that consider fin clipped vs. non ????? I just can't help thinking that more than 7 "wild" steelies have entered the trap!!!

So, what is a wild winter steelie in the Sandy anyway? Does anyone seriously believe that any but the very latest segment of the run is any sort of genetically pure Sandy River fish? Mixing of wild and hatchery steelies has been going on in the Sandy for 50-80 years. The naturally spawned survivors of this mixing are just that -- healthy survivors! Does anyone have a complaint about them? They are good fish and should be utilized by the hatchery system to increase the natural spawning success of their decendants!!! That's my "2 bits worth" on this subject!!!!

[HOGTIDE]

My Gosh, Young Salt,you have certainly done your research and made many contacts. As you have appeared to have synthesized mounds of diverse information...in a nutshell...what would be 'your' plan for the river. I'm not being a smarta** here (hard to tell on the BB), I am truly interested in your view.

[wiser]

BillH,
The most current information I have seen readily available can be viewed at http://www.flyfishusa.com .This will bring you to the fly fishing shop newsletter where you can look back at the archived newsletters. I believe it is th Dec.18,2000 newsletter that will allow you to click on year 2000 records of all fish passage at Marmot. If you can't find it let me know and I'll get you the exact internet address. Bob Hooten at ODFW is the contact for information regarding Marmot passage.
Thanks HT, I sometimes wonder if posting is worth it. More bashing than listening.
First of all, I know opinions are like ---holes and of course I've got one too.
I certainly can't say I've synthesized all the information I've heard and read but I have tried to listen to all the sides. There are certainly more than two to this story. Of course, after I've listened I add my own needs and desires when I can. I'm guessing I could write pages about how I developed my thoughts but I won't do that here.
By and large I think ODFW staff has done a good job developing a recommendation for management of the Sandy. It was certainly a difficult and uncomfortable challenge.
If the question were purely what would be the best for wild stock recovery, I would say shut down the hatcheries, stop supplementing with hatchery fish, turn the river into a dam free, free flowing river, stop all angling and see what happens. However, that's not the question as far as I'm concerned. We need to give wild fish the best chance of survival possible and decrease the risk of losing wild fish while continueing to provide angling opportunity.
First of all I think bifurcation of the system is a bad idea. Manage the system as a whole. Bifurcation changes the way the system functions.
Secondly, I think the developement of native broodstock programs has promise but there are still questions that need answers.
The marking of all hatchery fish will make release of all wild fish easier and hopefully mandatory.
Currently the summer steelhead program uses out of basin(Skamania) stock. The program doesn't provide a huge amount of angling opportunity since the lower Sandy is generally quite turbid while those fish are in the system. The information I've aware of, from USFS, shows there is a tremendous chance of impact to other indigenous species because of the propensity for summer steelhead smolt to residualize and compete on a year round basis. This hatchery program should be eliminated.
Sandy River coho have been managed primarily as a production line for commercial interests and to supplement the lower Columbia sport fishery. The release of 700,000 coho smolt from the Sandy hatchery
most certainly had an impact on other fish rearing in the system. The sport catch in the Sandy was never huge and mostly occurred in a confined area, (Cedar Creek mouth area), that didn't provide great angling experiences. I think the release of 200,000 coho into the Sandy is plenty. The transfer, acclimation and release of the additional Sandy hatchery smolt in a selective fishery like Youngs Bay, makes sense to me.
Winter steelhead and spring chinook are the best known and most highly sought after fish in the Sandy. Broodstock programs are important for both these fisheries.
In my estimation, the spring chinook fishery has surpassed the winter steelhead fishery with regard to being the most desireable and also the most sought after. Guide pressure on this resource has increased dramatically the last couple years. I too enjoy catching these fish. I believe conversion to a native broodstock is a move in the right direction. Studies by the City of Portland have proven a native stock of spring chinook exist in the basin. The steps being taken to allow a maximum 10% stray rate into the upper watershed are necessary to protect the wild stock.
For winter steelhead, the 10% stray rate into the upper watershed and 30% aggregate stray rate worries me a little. I think there is, at times, significant winter steelhead spawning in the lower Sandy River. Hopefully, acclimation and release strategies can be designed to keep more hatchery fish in the lower river available for harvest.
Well HT, I've probably ****** some people off,had others pass because of length or just bored people to death(wasted bandwidth), but you asked. Just remember these are my thoughts with my bias added in.

[4u2fish]

Well guys what I am about to post is hearsay. I have 0 proof of what I am about to type but I have met the individual who said it and the source I got it from is reliable.

The speaker is a fish biologist who does work on the sandy. He stated,"I recieved a 90 page outline of what is going to happen to the Sandy river over the next 5 years".

My understanding (hearsay) of what some of the information in that report is as follows:

The powers that be are trying to engineer how to remove marmot dam. They intend to remove ALL hatchery steelies from the system within the next 5 yrs.. (they have to figure out how and when to remove the fish ladders and blow the dam so as to minimise the damage to the native fish runs)..

After the dam is removed there will be NO!!! yes that was NO!!! fishing on the Sandy river --- I don't know how long a period of time but probably until the native fish grow in #'s.. It is speculated that it will become catch and release only (similar to the Deschutes is) after the runs come back..

On another note that may or may not be related is that the mortality rate of the hatchery fish is so high that they are wasting time and money and have decided that NO management is more effictive than maintaining an unmanageable system..

Apparently the hatchery is not able to produce the same amount of healthy smolt with 120 fish as occurs naturally with 4 maiting pairs (that's 8 fish).. Hence the conclusion is ::

Remove the hatchery fish to keep them from the geene pool and allow the natives to regain their foothold on the system..

As I stated above this is all hearsay but I will try to get more information and possibly get my hands on that 90 page report..

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AKC H2O-K9

[HOGTIDE]

Young Salt, Thanks for the details. This situation holds so many variables; Biological ones, projecting which scenario will be the the most effective in increasing 'desirable' fish numbers and diverse public opinion, some desiring pure native stocks, some for maxing hatchery returns and some believing a slowly enacted middle ground can be achieved.

Being a fisherman, not a biologist,my preference is 'return numbers focused'. I would back any scenario that would ultimately produce the largest amount of healthy, sustainable returning stocks. If 'wild'is the answer, I back it, and the same for hatchery or a mixed run. However, I am not hung up on the asthetics of 'needing' our Sandy fish to be 'wild'.

Simply the proximity of this river to the metro area and it's heavy angler usage, remove any notion I might have of a pristine watershed, inhabited by native species. That would be wonderful, but I believe in all practicality, impossible.

I have fished the Sandy since the mid 1970s and I have seen decline these past 10 years . And, I acknowledge there is a problem, and truly appreciate efforts and concerns being put forth by sportsmen and the ODFW. I hope the best minds, the best ideas will prevail.

[Fishhead]

BillH, I to have fished the Sandy for a long time and have seen the fish that you referred to.The first winter run that goes through is made up of hatchery fish. This starts around Thanksgiving and tapers off in early Febuary. After that the wild run comes through. Mixed in with those two runs are a scatering of stray summer fish on their way down. I dont fish the Sandy to much for the summer run ,but the way things are shaping up it looks as if we dont start fighting to save what hatchery summer runs that we have now, we will probably see the (wise ones) try to reduce the beloved winter run as well! At one time about ten years ago we had healthy winter runs of both hatchery fish and wild fish, but we were allowed to keep both. The inter-mix of those two stains of fish didnt cause the decline of the wild fish, it was the taking of those wild fish that reduced their numbers. Anyone who has spent any time on the Sandy knows this. They say numbers dont lie but it seems we cant trust any body any more. I could be wrong and it wouldnt be the first time, I'm just ticked off and cant do anything about it!!!! Whats the answer? I dont know. Well any way the Sandy used to be a great place to fish and take something home for dinner, back in the good ol'days!!! Just my 2 pennis worth.......Fishhead