What would be your advice? [Archive]

rimrock

10-08-2006, 06:02 PM

Here’s a rather delicate situation. A member of the morning bible study I attend was asked to speak at the funeral of his long time neighbor who passed away this week. The family and the gentleman who passed away are non-Christian, but nevertheless they want my Christian friend to deliver the message at the funeral service with the provision he does not talk about his beliefs or say anything regarding the Gospel.

So here’s the obvious question my friend asked me to get back to him on. Does he tastefully speak about the message of the Gospel or go with what the family asked and leave all reference to Jesus out even though they absolutely know his beliefs? Now he is wise enough to know his audience as to be sensitive to how he would present the Gospel – that’s not the issue; he is very gifted in his messages it wouldn’t be a “turn or burn” kind of thing. The issue is does he present the Gospel or not?

eddie haskel

10-08-2006, 08:47 PM

NEVER....

EVER.....

Compromise your allegiance to Christ, for an earthly request.
This mindset, of not wanting to offend, or political correctness, is what is eroding the Christian faith.
He is well entitled, and should, beg off, if he is a true believer of God.

D-tangle

10-08-2006, 08:54 PM

How can you separate the Good News from your life as a recipient of Christ? I can't do it, so somehow the message must be shared in other than a 'turn or burn' way. I've held several funerals for the unsaved, and the message was shared at the end of Christ's love and sacrifice on the cross for our sins. The reaction of others is not your problem.

Bartman

10-08-2006, 09:03 PM

If he has been asked by the family to speak, but under certain conditions, then he should respect their wishes, or not speak. I know that I wouldnt want you at my loved ones funeral, talking about why their burning in hell!!
a funeral should be more about the celebration of life, not about someone turning it into a chance to preach their fire and brimstone. :twocents:

jokester

10-08-2006, 09:18 PM

PapaHog

10-08-2006, 11:17 PM

As stated earlier your friend can not speak unless he follows the families wishes.

That should not be hard to do.

Your friends life is already a witness to the family or they would not have asked him to speak with out reference to our Lord.

God has blessed his walk and will bless his witness because of his walk and not necessarily his words.

WyldHen

10-09-2006, 12:04 AM

I agree with Bartman, Jokester and Papa Hog. :flowered: :yeahthat:

This is about celebrating someones life first and foremost.

They (the departed) may not have felt as strongly as you about spreading the message. That is not a bad thing. That is just different than what you would like at your funeral. It's ok. :bearhug: I think it would be a shame to miss an oportunity to celebrate the goodness of the mans life. He clearly respected the potential speaker, the speaker should inturn show the same respect.

I say the speaker should go ahead and tell the family what he'd like to say and see what they think. :flowered: Keep in mind they want to hear about the person that passed away and their hearts are heavy with grief.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v467/WildHen/Signatures/godblesyou.gif

fishnwHim

10-09-2006, 06:45 AM

letsfish

10-09-2006, 09:16 AM

An interesting question, but since the family is familar with his beliefs(and the funeral is for the family), he can speak as they wish. He may even preface his statement with "I wish I could share with you my heart...". Some one later may ask him what he meant and in a very personal way could share with them the gospel and how it reflects his true feelings.

Bartman

10-09-2006, 04:24 PM

I would say that he speaks to the family about it once again, and tells them up front how he feels. If they're still not comfortable with the idea of him mentioning God or Christianity in the service, then he tells them that he's honored that they would want him to speak, but he has to respectfully decline the offer. Just my :twocents:

-jokester

:yeahthat:

why would he have to decline :shrug: just wondering why he cant just speak as a friend of the family,who obviously respect the man for who he is, not what he believes.
like already said, the funeral is a celebration of life,the deceased life, NOT an opportunity for someone to try and gain converts to their "flavor" of religion.
Bart

fishnwHim

10-09-2006, 04:50 PM

jokester

10-09-2006, 05:14 PM

:yeahthat: Exactly!

-jokester

Dullhook

10-09-2006, 06:20 PM

If the two gentlemen were close friends but did not share the gift of Jesus, presenting the Christian Gospel would probably (at this particular time) not fall upon "accepting ears." They were friends and neighbors but not brothers in Christ and nothing said at this funeral would affect the salvation of the deceased.

His non-Christian family probably would love to hear some kind and uplifting words from a friend to help quench their grief and bring back some good memories of their passed loved one. The Gospel of Christ might better be presented to them at a more appropriate time when their acceptance might be greater. :hearton: :angel:

As others have pointed out...if this bothers your friend he should respectively decline to speak...explaining to the family the reason why. However this very well may be the wrong track to take since it could nail the door shut to any future communication with this family. Future sharing of the "Good News" of Jesus Christ at a later time might be fruitless. :depressed:

happybrew

10-09-2006, 07:34 PM

He could speak of love and hope, without mentioning any theological concepts. In speaking of love, one speaks of God, for God is love. In speaking of hope, one speaks of faith, without mentioning it.

Bartman

10-09-2006, 07:39 PM

I believe he can do what ever he wants , he needs to honor the families wishes regardless of his choice. If he truly believes that he must share the gospel if he chooses to speak, he needs to respectfully decline. I think this is what Jokester was saying.

sorry if I took the post wrong, thought it sounded like the advise was that if he couldnt talk about his beliefs, then he shouldnt speak :flowered:
from my personal experiance a couple weeks ago, we had a friend of the family, who is very active in his church, knew my father personally for many years, and came by the house often as a home teacher from the church. this gentleman new that my father was not a xtian, and did a beautiful job of sharing his personal relationship with my father,and honoring my father, without sharing his beliefs, after all, it wasnt about him or his beliefs. if this gentleman would have went on about his beliefs,it just wouldnt have been appropiate. it would be like a muslim, talking at a xtians funeral, and preaching about his beliefs,IMO it would be disrespectful. :twocents:
Bart

Bartman

10-09-2006, 07:40 PM

He could speak of love and hope, without mentioning any theological concepts. In speaking of love, one speaks of God, for God is love. In speaking of hope, one speaks of faith, without mentioning it.

well said happybrew :applause: :applause:

Pete

10-09-2006, 09:31 PM

It sounds to me like the family is recognizing spirituality and hopefullness in asking your friend to speak. The lessons of the Gospel are also solid life-lessons. Happybrew's advice is good ... remembering a neighbor's life is an honor.

rimrock

10-09-2006, 11:10 PM

I thought some may desire to know my response to my friend. I appreciate the wisdom shared here and it was of help in seeking guidance; some of which I incorporated. thank you :angel:

“Devote yourselves to prayer, keeping alert in it with an attitude of thanksgiving; praying at the same time for us as well, that God will open up to us a door for the word, so that we may speak forth the mystery of Christ, for which I have also been imprisoned; that I may make it clear in the way I ought to speak. Conduct yourselves with wisdom toward outsiders, making the most of the opportunity. Let your speech always be with grace, as though seasoned with salt, so that you will know how you should respond to each person.” (Col)

This passage came to my mind reflecting on the decision at hand. The opportunity afforded to you is not of man but as with all things it’s something of God. So speak the truth in love Ron. You know your audience and know that through prayer the Lord will season your words. Be simple; use the story of the deceased. Beforehand ask family members to write out characteristics of the person’s life and humorous events from his life. Focusing on the person’s life captures the audience’s attention recalls fond cherished memories, and you can easily transition into the Gospel. It’s not necessary to mention whether the person was unsaved for that’s only a matter for God. Go right from the person’s biography to a wonderful story of the life of Jesus.

Again be simple. Re-read the story of John 11. Transition your message by simply saying something like, “Jesus went to a funeral once.” Tell them through this event in the life of Jesus how God loves them, how even God is weeping with them, how God comes close to those who mourn. He is not somewhere distant or aloof. Most unchurched don’t or haven’t ever seen Jesus portrayed this way – a God of emotion, of meeting people in their grief. “Jesus said…He who believes in me will live, even though he dies…” Those are words of comfort; they are not words of commendation. Isn’t this in truth the Gospel message afterall? No need for anything more than Jesus does weep as well and God will comfort those who mourn as they look to Him. Don’t be afraid to say the name Jesus. It is the name above all names and the only One given for our salvation. It’s far from turn or burn; it’s speech with grace, as though seasoned with salt.

And remember God will be there with you as well.

See you tomorrow,

Bartman

10-10-2006, 06:31 AM

so the advise is to go against the families wishes??
I guess I'm just "thick" or something, how is that being a good xtian?? :bricks:

rimrock

10-10-2006, 09:55 AM

Certainly are respecting the family’s wishes and respecting God’s wishes as well.

I felt the advice on declining to speak was good especially if he didn’t know this family at all something akin to a family calling a church to use their facilities then asking the message to not include Jesus, that just wouldn’t add up. But this isn’t the case here he knows them well and they know him well. So a gentle message, not fire and brimstone, is afforded and appropriate. We all want to hear about comfort in the midst of mourning. And is one of the reasons funerals typically are a wonderful opportunity to share they are loved by Jesus and how He “is not far from each of us” if we just reach out He is always found. That’s good news.

PapaHog

10-10-2006, 03:58 PM

this isn’t the case here he knows them well

So that makes it ok to not follow the families wishes???

Bartman

10-10-2006, 04:20 PM

Certainly are respecting the family’s wishes and respecting God’s wishes as well.

sorry rimrock, I must of missed something, I thought you specifically said that he was asked not to talk about xtianity or the gospel,IMO if that is the case, then he is not only not respecting their wishes, but he is disrespecting them and the one who has passed. :twocents:
Bart

DAB

10-10-2006, 09:12 PM

RR
you have a PM
DAB

eddie haskel

10-11-2006, 07:01 AM

I musta misread, or "interpreted" the original post (question). I thought the family specifically forbade any religious referencing. Chalk this one up to the pitfalls of cybersation :passout:

rimrock

10-11-2006, 07:40 AM

Nope you didn't misinterpret the original post.

PapaHog

10-13-2006, 06:05 PM

Nope you didn't misinterpret the original post.

:shrug:

FireCat

10-13-2006, 07:48 PM

If a Christian is true to the Word of God, one cannot change or deduce the Bible's warning that unbelief damns. "Whoever does not believe will be condemned" (Mark 16:16; see also Mathew 25:41,46). To say otherwise is to deny the Scriptures. also, to officiate, or speek at a funeral of a non-Christian might confuse the insaved and allow them to think that somehow someone can still gain heaven apart from Jesus. This is impossible, for Jesus says, "No one comes to the Father except through me" (John 14:6).

This does not mean that the Christian will ignore the spiritual needs of the UNSAVED and the family. He CAN still bring the Gospel to them privately and TRY TO stear them to Jesus who will uphold them in this trying time. But regarding the funeral service itself, by not officiating at a service of an unbeliever the person is simply saying "I have no evidence that this person died believing in Jesus."

Certainly, some could view this actions as loveless. But is it love to give false hope? Is it loving to perhaps leave the impression that there are another ways to life apart from Jesus? Love for souls means we need a clear confession. Christians are to clearly proclaim that "Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved" (Acts 4:12).

Lets put it this way: And I quote Rimrock my good friend
And change the wording so you can get my drift:

"The family and the gentleman who passed away are non-Christian, but nevertheless they want JESUS to deliver the message at the funeral service with the provision he does not talk about his FATHER or say anything regarding the Gospel"

"Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet you do not not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and why do you SAY THEN then, Show us the Father?"
Christ lived and breathed his father and the kingdon and salvation has come!....he could not keep quiet, in my opinion, our Lord would politely would turn the invatation down.....Lord Bless

Bartman

10-13-2006, 10:34 PM

Certainly, some could view this actions as loveless. But is it love to give false hope? Is it loving to perhaps leave the impression that there are another ways to life apart from Jesus? Love for souls means we need a clear confession. Christians are to clearly proclaim that "Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved" (Acts 4:12).

:lurk: :lurk: :lurk: :lurk: :lurk: :lurk: :lurk: :noway:

FireCat

10-13-2006, 10:58 PM

Bartman I do not criticize anyones post, I try to be respectful to all and not attach goofy characters at the page to show disagreement, all I did was give a opinion, wether it is right or wrong, it is a opinion out of my belief and interpation of scripture.

And the opinion was directed toward Rimrock, not you, with all do respect, Let thoes that have opinions, let them give them. With the way you show disagreement, it WILL make a few not want to give any opinions at all.

RvW

10-15-2006, 08:33 PM

He should respect their wishes, or decline to speak.
The mans soul is not in the ears of those not listening.
A private prayer for the deceased will reach God, who is always listening.

A prayer for the unfaithful is often the only thing we can do before we hand the challenge back to God

This mindset, of not wanting to offend, or political correctness, is what is eroding the Christian faith.

I think another part of what is "eroding the Christian faith" is speaking to people of our beliefs who dont want to hear them which further pushes them away from Christ.

eddie haskel

10-16-2006, 07:30 AM

I agree, speaking to those not receptive to the message shows ill will, not very conducive to gaining souls for the Kingdom. That is why he needed to refrain from speaking, anything less would be a lose-lose, proposition.

rimrock

10-16-2006, 08:26 AM

Don’t speak unless your audience is going to be receptive??? A Christian would have a very hard time demonstrating that from Scripture…but you can easily demonstrate it from our cultural perspective. Don’t be mistaken I’ll even say most believers today take our cues from society and not Jesus – we should be honest with that. I struggle to make the separation myself on a daily basis. Firecat yet again spoke so well to the matter. I particularly liked the principle of “not giving false hope”, now that you can get directly from the Bible.

As an aside we always consider the audience in a message, but we don’t let that audience govern that message either. Ron did such a beautiful funeral service; he truly did speak the truth in love. Not just truth as that can be crushing, and not just love as that can be saccharin – God calls for both in the context of the audience’s ability to hear. And that too is what Firecat was rightly sharing.

Just so people know the message was shared so well that even the widow, who originally asked him not to share Jesus, hugged Ron and deeply thanked him. Why??? It wasn’t become of Ron but because God was brought into the equation. People so don’t even know of their need for Jesus; He is the only source of peace. I would encourage people to look from more ways to share the name Jesus, in a right truthful loving balanced manner, rather than the many, many, many reasons why we shouldn’t. From shouldn’t is the reason of the culture.

Grace and peace to you all.

RvW

10-16-2006, 02:42 PM

Rim, your response seems hostile or bitter.
If I was asked to speak a word about a deceased neighbor or friend, but not of my faith, I would respect that request coming from the widow. Or, I wouldnt speak.

Fortunately, the "speaker" chose to do so anyway and it was recieved well. A result that is obviously the exeption and not the rule.

You asked for an opinion. "What would I do?"
I would avoid conflict, and avoid all the theological "what would be the Christian thing to do" questions bubbling up in my gut and either speak on the terms given, or not at all.

I am very glad god influenced this situation, and his word was spoken and recieved well. No better outcome I can think of. But it was done with risk. Risk that some agree is not appropriate.
I hate to think my decision, or others decisions to handle it differently would be "wrong" or less than Christian-like behavior. We are all students of God. In this lesson, Im not sure there was a "right" answer.

Chromaflage

10-16-2006, 02:48 PM

Don’t speak unless your audience is going to be receptive???

You mean like Moses did? :laugh: Glad everything seemed to turn out well.

CrF

RvW

10-16-2006, 03:15 PM

I dont think EH meant to say it quite that way leading to rims response. "Dont speak unless your audience is going to be receptive"

If people ASK christians not to speak of their faith, and they disregard that request...In my opinion, it would further distance the unfaithful people from god, and create hostility.
Someone asks you not to speak of your faith in their presence, dont, would be my advice.

joemomma

10-16-2006, 04:40 PM

eddie haskel

10-16-2006, 04:55 PM

Golly gee Wally, it seems things are kinda goofy......

I'm at a lost, at trying to understand the meaning, of what appears to me, to be some sort of passive-aggressive rebuke.

I'll try once more to explain, then I'll just let you believe whatever it is you so choose.

Jesus instructed the disciples to leave a city, when those inhabitants were not receptive to the "word", and find another to preach. This was in question to His direction of spreading the gospel. I don't have the exact passage in front of me, sorry.

Bartman

10-16-2006, 05:28 PM

the widow gave him a hug, honestly thankfull or just being respectful??
but how many friends and family of the deceased, sat there thinking that it WAS inappropriate, or had nothing to do with the deceaseds life??

spreading the word of God?? or just xtian entitlement??

happybrew

10-16-2006, 09:30 PM

This is silly. None of you know the whole picture. You are giving in to the urge to second guess a second hand report. Rimrock didn't deliver the address, his friend did. Rimrock asked for advice. His friend did what he did. Do you honestly expect Rimrock to not stick up for his friend? Do you really think his report is inaccurate? If so, on what do you base that opinion? Is it fact? Did you witness it?

Are we being brotherly and uplifting in our treatment of Rimrock? Are we considering the truth in this matter, given that we weren't there? Why all this strife and division? I say leave the man alone. We follow our consciences. Rimrock's friend followed his, and now everyone berates Rimrock for it. :sick: Rimrock merely offered his friend advice on the matter, just as we did. His friend ultimately did what he felt was right.

happybrew

FireCat

10-16-2006, 11:35 PM

Hpybrew with all do respect to you my friend this is what I thought Rimrock ask.."The issue is does he present the Gospel or not?"
http://www.ifish.net/board/images/statusicon/user_offline.gif

And so i gave my opion I was not trying to rip Rimrock in anything...I gave a opinon...His friend did what he thought was right...so be it opinions even in the Christian realm are just that...opinions.
The Question was presented the way I understood it, and I gave a opinnion accordingly. It was not to rip Rimrock nor anyone else that tries to ask a question on subject maters, On faith, cars, killing Blacktails, or wether the Bears should of won tonite.

Bartman

10-17-2006, 06:37 AM

Pm sent happybrew. :flowered:

in 'em

10-18-2006, 04:03 PM

Every person holds to their own worldview...where did I come from, why am I here, where do I go when I die?

So many have doubts and are not sure if what they believe is true or not...it is those with doubts who would not bring their faith into this situation.

If you know with 100% certainty that you hold the one true Truth in your heart, you need not be afraid to share it in any circumstance. In many people's darkest hour, God will show His power, love, and might and it may be that through this time, many will ask questions and find Truth in the Gospel message and through Christ Jesus.

I respect you and your friend for standing firm in the faith when today's society cringes at the thought of publicly declaring Christ.

RvW

10-18-2006, 11:42 PM

Inspiring words "in 'em. But I must ask. If someone asked you not to speak of your faith in their presence, would you do it anyway?

I think its a pretty straight forward question. Though it simplifies the advice saught here in the thread. It basicly boils down to that one simple question.
Would you disregard the request and speak of your faith dispite very clearly being asked not to? I dont think its a matter of ones lack of commitment to Christ to honor the request, I define it as respecting someone elses wishes plain and simple.

You and others make it sound as though it would be a measure of someones faith, (or Quote: "Cringing at the thought of publicly declaring Christ) if they complied with a simple family request not to add spiritual refrences to a funeral speach.

I have no reservations publicly declaring Christ our lord and savior, but a funeral is a private affair and the man was asked by the widow not to.
Really seems like a no-brainer to me.

AnglersRental

10-19-2006, 12:39 AM

What would Jesus do were he in this situation?

- Brad

in 'em

10-19-2006, 01:18 PM

Row,
I'm not saying I would have done what he did or that there is a right or wrong here, but I do respect what he stood for in the situation as I'm sure you do as well.

Uglygreen brings up a great point...what would Jesus have done? I think he, being obviously gifted in public speaking, would have spoke and likely declared the truth he knows with certainty. He surely wouldn't have declined the offer...but perhaps he would have given a parable or story as to "water" the gospel message down a bit.

I don't think this is a measure of faith, but rather a step of faith. Our spiritual gifts are different. If your gift is speaking, you need to use it to glorify God, not to agree with or obey your friends.

D-tangle

10-31-2006, 07:33 PM

why would he have to decline :shrug: just wondering why he cant just speak as a friend of the family,who obviously respect the man for who he is, not what he believes.
like already said, the funeral is a celebration of life,the deceased life, NOT an opportunity for someone to try and gain converts to their "flavor" of religion.
Bart

Bartman, life is Christ. He gives it to all and it is in him. You can't separate life from Christ, especially since he gave himself to save all who recieve his gift of redemption. Knowing this through the Bible, God's Word, how could i ever talk about a person's life in a public ceremony without the ultimate Giver of Life? That's like soda without bubbles. It's not soda, just syrup. You, of course, if asked, could easily ignore Christ and perform this ceremony, so go ahead. I could not, so I decline to play for the piper. My life belongs to Him who gave himself for me.

PS-I re-read this today. Can you tell I was frustrated with something else and taking it out on someone else? Sorry, Bartman.