Drinking Alcohol as a Christian.

[BuckisMunz]

***please know that these views are mine, I'm not trying to push my views on you, or trying to knock your views down, I'm simply trying to raise question***

So I bring up a very very touchy subject for alot of people. I'll first let you know where I stand, but I'd love to see other people's take on this issue.

My view is that if anything you do causes a brother to stumble, then you shouldn't do it. I choose not to drink. Mostly becuase I never want to become a stumbling block for my fellow Christian or Non-Christian. I've got friends that drink frequently, and I've got friends that hardly ever drink, and don't talk about it at all really. Shoot my parents, Brothers and Sisters drink. But I gotta be honest. Don't you think that this excercise of our freedom is more damaging in this time period than it was back in the days of Jesus? When a high-school kid see's a person drinking, they don't associate it with sitting back drinking one beer, they will most likely associate it with Coor's Commecials and SPRING BREAK!!! So this takes me to "Drinking in the privacy of your own home." Ahh yes, you can't cause anyone to stumble there, or around other people that drink, so here's my next question. Let's say I listen to Heavy Metal, Straight up Satanic Music, But this doesn't faze me, or cuase me to stumble in my walk with God. But I've got 1 kid that looks up to me, and he is very impressionable. but I've always been careful not to listen to my music around him. UNTIL one day, I left a bad CD in there, and the next week I learned that he went and bought all of the CD's that artist came out with. BAM!!! I just caused someone to stumbe, so I'll get to my question. Do you think that if I would of just listened to myself, and stopped entirely listening to heavy metal in my private time, that I would of EVER been at fault. It's like the whole saying WWJD, as cheesy as it is, It's a reality. I can thank my wife for this view. Her question to me about listening to bad music by myself, but not around others, is: "So if you feel bad about listening to it around BOB (make believe name for high school kid) then why listen to it at all?" So my intial response is "Well the music doesn't affect me like it affects Bob" then she responds "Wouldn't it be awesome if you were found faultless". So that really Got me. I've been sober, non-drinking for about 7 years. This is my choice, but to think about how many times I've been an example, or how many times I HAVEN't been a stumbling block, blows me out of the water.

WHERE DO WE DRAW THE LINE?

[LIMIT LANDER]

Buck I dont think anyone on here will or can dissagree with you.... I know I wont. And never will, unless someone says " your going to hell for drinking" that is where I draw the line. But to keep your brother from falling onto sin is one of the best way to show love one can do. We must remember that we now live Under one law according, to new testament study, and that is the law of "love". It dosent show if your week or strong it shows that you love your brother. And also your are obeying the Holy Spirit and Gods word. Only advice I can give you is becarefull of being judemental. It is another very deadly sin. And dont let anyone tell you your stance shows weekness, when in fact it shows great streingth!. And you will be greatly rewarded for your stance.

[Tanner]

We have been called to bring the lost to Christ.
When I am expressing to someone the changes that God has made in my life and then that same person sees me drinking or drugging or whatever. I just lost all credibility with that person.

A couple of years ago I went to a graduation party and there was a guy there that was literally witnessing to others with a scotch in his hand. He spent the whole time he was at the party proclaiming how Jesus had transformed his life for the better and with each drink became more obnoxious about it. My wife and I being the only other Christians at this party were completely blown away by what this guy was doing. You could pretty much see all the people laughing at him.

Looking back on this experience, I wish I would have called him on it.

[BuckisMunz]

See, that's just it, It's controverial. A gray area!! When it Should be Black and White. Why doesn't God paint it directly for us. Do we drink, do we not drink. I'm pretty sure that back in the day's of Jesus, Drinking wasn't as nearly as popular as it is today. Or nearly as COOL, as it is today. They didn't have to think really back then. They just drank wine. Not beer, no Hard liquor. WINE. And I've heard the whole, "Well, Jesus turned water into wine." Well God did alot of stuff, including giving us free will, should we ride on that just cause God gave it to us?

Limit Lander => Judgemental and speaking out are 2 different things. I hope you don't find me being judgemental. Once again, these are my views. I'm not telling people what to do, rather questioning it.

I guess it's just sad. I went to YWAM (Youth with a mission) about 1 1/2 years ago, and while we were on our missions trip a couple of guys in our group couldn't stop rambling on about how they can't wait to get back and drink a few beers. While at the same time preaching the word to hundreds. This really upset me. Then I get home from this trip and start seeing it everywhere. Friends that are christians drinking like it's not big deal. Getting excited cuz they learned how to mix Guiness and henry's.

What's the big deal with drinking if it doesn't have a hold on you then? Why even drink if it doesn't bother you at all? is it cuz it tastes good? or is it the tiny buzz you get off one beer? Why even drink if your not going to get a buzz? How would you feel if you knew you put an Alcoholic over the edge because you were having "Just one Beer"? How can you say your not a stumbling block to others cuz you drink in private? and if it's alright to drink, then why do you have to worry who you drink around? Why have something in your life that could possibly RUIN someone elses?

I'm in no way saying that I'm perfect... but this drinking thing REALLY gets under my skin.

[BuckisMunz]

King, you just made my DAY!!!

[SKP]

I was hit by a drunk driver at age 8, on August 25, 1972. I almost died. I still have physical problems from this, and this was 31 years ago. This was before I accepted the Lord. Drinking has never been right with me, even before I met the Lord.

Drinking makes me very angry because of the accident.

You'll grow more as a Christian if you don't drink. You might drink at home with no one watching. But God is watching.

Why not take the time you would drink, and use it to pray or read your Bible, or witness to someone.

Sure, I take Nyquil when I am sick. This is what the Bible refers to for the "stomach's" sake. There is a difference. The Bible says that wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging, and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise. It's not an exact quote, but close. However, I think I hate intoxicating substances more from the accident then from scripture from my personal experiences.

Pray about it, read the Bible, and get God's view on it, not man's view.

SKP

[fishonksm]

The problem with drinking is the drunk part. For it’s not a sin to drink, rather it is a sin to be drunk. Or if your drinking outwardly affects another you shouldn't drink in front of them. Pastors, elders or deacons of any church are prohibited scripturally form drinking for it may give the wrong impression to those who are not saved. Jesus said that our bodies are living temples and that he inhabits them so why put anything in them that would hurt them. I think it all comes down to walking the talk, studing the word, surround yourself with those who do and pray for direction. You’ll never get lost .

[happybrew]

Genesis 14:18
Then Melchizedek king of Salem [ 14:18 That is, Jerusalem ] brought out bread and wine. He was priest of God Most High,

Genesis 27:28
May God give you of heaven's dew and of earth's richness- an abundance of grain and new wine.

Exodus 29:40
With the first lamb offer a tenth of an ephah of fine flour mixed with a quarter of a hin of oil from pressed olives, and a quarter of a hin of wine as a drink offering.

Psalm 104
14 He makes grass grow for the cattle,
and plants for man to cultivate-
bringing forth food from the earth:
15 wine that gladdens the heart of man,
oil to make his face shine,
and bread that sustains his heart.
16 The trees of the LORD are well watered,
the cedars of Lebanon that he planted.

Wine is portrayed in many places in the Bible as a blessing to people, one of the fruits of the earth. It is also shown to be fit as an offering to God. If it were bad in itself, it could not be an offering to God. It is, rather, the inappropriate use of wine that is wrong. This means either distracting oneself from one's duty, as in here: Proverbs 31
3 do not spend your strength on women,
your vigor on those who ruin kings.

4 "It is not for kings, O Lemuel-
not for kings to drink wine,
not for rulers to crave beer,
5 lest they drink and forget what the law decrees,
and deprive all the oppressed of their rights.


And of course, there are the numerous condemnations of drunkenness. If one has responsibilities that need taking care of, alcohol should be avoided. Alcohol drunk in excess should be avoided no matter what. If one wishes to give up something good for the sake of the Lord, that is certainly commendable. However, this does not make it wrong to have a drink. It merely means that it's better not to have it, if one is giving it up for the Lord.

happybrew (feeling slightly embarrassed at my monicker, sig, and avatar)

[ 08-19-2003, 03:37 PM: Message edited by: happybrew ]

[SKP]

New wine in the Bible is grape juice - not fermented fruit of the vine that has developed alchohol. Go to the actual language it was translated from, and also read the context in the actual scripture using an accurate concordance and Bible dictionary. You have to let scripture interpret scripture, not man interpret scripture.

Obviously, you can cook out the alcohol, so there's nothing wrong with consuming beer battered fish and the like. But, I just will not go purchase beer or have beer enter my house for then I will have the appearance of evil, and you will support the industry. I know I'm in the minority here, but if this accident happened to you, you would stand against alcohol also.

Am I the only one that stands this way or are there more?

SKP

[happybrew]

Joel 1:5
Wake up, you drunkards, and weep! Wail, all you drinkers of wine; wail because of the new wine, for it has been snatched from your lips.


Numbers 6:3
he must abstain from wine and other fermented drink and must not drink vinegar made from wine or from other fermented drink. He must not drink grape juice or eat grapes or raisins.

Hosea 4
10 "They will eat but not have enough;
they will engage in prostitution but not increase,
because they have deserted the LORD
to give themselves 11 to prostitution,
to old wine and new,
which take away the understanding 12 of my people.

Luke 5:39
And no one after drinking old wine wants the new, for he says, 'The old is better.' "

[BuckisMunz]

I think that this thread is getting off course. The subject/debate is...

Why Drink if your going to be a stumbling block to your brother. Yes, there's many references to wine in the bible, and blah blah blah, but that's not the point. The point is:

1 Corinthians 8:9-13:
"But food will not commend us to God; we are neither the worse if we do not eat, nor the better if we do eat. 9. But take care lest this liberty of yours somehow become a stumbing block for the weak. 10. For if someone sees you, who have knowledge, dining in an idols temple, will not his conscience, if he is weak, get strengthened to eat things sacrificed to idols? 11. For through your knowledge he who is weak is ruined, the brother for whose sake CHRIST DIED. 12. And thus, by sinning against the brethren when it is weak, you sin against Christ. 13. Therefore, if food causes my brother to stumble, I will never eat meat again, that I might not cause my brother to stumble."

We already know that drinking has gotten way out of hand in today's society, and you NEVER know who your going to run into, or if they have a drinking problem. Obviously from this passage, They went to the extreme of eating meat. Basically saying that if you cause someone to stumble by your freedom, your sinning against God.

Wouldn't you rather drink a pop, or whatever and not have to sit there worrying that you might be sinning against God?

[LIMIT LANDER]

buckismuz...I didnt say you were judgmental..I said "Becarefull and dont fall in to that trap".....There is nothing wrong with about voicing your convictions. But some people dont feel convicted eather way....So what I am saying is I am on your side on this one and always will be. And you say it is a grey area...I will dissagree with you on that one. When one becomes a Christian he or she should become all that Christ wants him to be. And if that is your passion, as it should be to all of us, they will have a desire to be like Christ. and who in the Bible was the closest being like Christ? It was John the Baptist the word tells us that Jesus said there has been no man Greater than John the Baptist...and strong drink never touched his lips!. You see if we study our word the answer will always be there, Drinking alcohol is black its not grey.

[BuckisMunz]

DANG Limit Lander, You are awesome man!!! Thank you for pointing that out, that's HUGE!!! I'll have to look more into that one..

[RvW]

Until reading this thread, I hadnt really made the connection with my faith and my drinking.

Alcohol has left its marks on me. The last ten years I have not really consumed it to a degree that would be considered unhealthy or?..., but the fact remains... theres enough bad things that have happened where alcohol was present that I have completely accepted the idea its not for me, and maybe even people around me.

In some cases I can clearly list reasons why I wouldnt want to drink even socially. My father had a drinking problem, my grandfather too. And I did as well when I was a young adult. Im sure youve all heard the line "I can take it or leave it" ? Its not a completely innacurate statement when it comes to my consumption. I dont drink now, and have on only very few occasions (3) since January 1st. My reason for quitting? to save a little money plain and simple.

This thread has opened my eyes to a much more worthy reason. My faith. As Grantspastor points out, 99% of the references to alcohol consumption in the bible are negative.
It can be argued that the bibles words are validated by each indivuals "interpretation" but I dont think random interpretations are immune to critisism and clarity from those who know the bible from repeated exposure, and exhaustive efforts to understand the words within.

There are some very intelligent people here, and most of those expressing opinions from a christian standpoint do it with much more knowledge of the word than I do. reading this thread has given me a clearer goal to remain alcohol free not exlusively due to the words in the bible, but for the simple idea that if I drink, I will distance myself from some christian people with lives and views I would like to emulate in one way or another...if I dont drink? I dont think it would upset anyone, Chritian or otherwise.

Thanks.

[Grantspastor]

I'll jump in on this one. This subject will probably be controversial until Jesus comes back.

First you cannot make a case that drinking alcohol is wrong in every instance from the Bible...BUT, if you take all the Scriptures that speak of drinking in a NEGATIVE context and put them in a column...then compare them with the two Scriptures that suggest that it is o.k. in a certain context...it become obvious to me that drinking is a negative thing not a positive thing. Medical science bears this out.

My own sister died at age 50 largely because of alcohol. They key for christians is to "seek the good of the many" and not insist on excercising their "liberty" in Christ when it comes to such things.

People don't go to hell for drinking. People go to hell for rejecting Jesus. Nevertheless, for me drinking is out. I do not want to put myself in the position of stumbling someone who is struggling with alcoholism. If I were seen drinking as a Pastor...it would equate to spiritual permission for them to engage in the very activity that they are trying so hard to overcome.

I'm with Buckismunz on this issue.

[King Fisher]

We'll until I've been OK with a beer once in a while. I make sure that I don't drink in front of other brothers if they have any issues with alcohol. Obviously, that could make a brother or sister stumble. I am going to pray about this one. I don't want to start someone else, especially my kids, down the wrong path. We've already stopped watching most of the TV shows, stopped listening to secular music, and don't go to R or pg13 movies. What would it hurt to stop drinking, or even the once in a while cigar. Hmmmmmmmm... Good view Buckismunz!

[Eric W.]

touchy subject! I will not give you my opinion but simply some food for thought.

America has a social problem with alchohol. Here it is commom for us to frown upon drinking as christians. However - travel to Europe and parts of Africa, and go out to lunch with some Pastors, and you will have beer with your lunch. Now I know the word of God is our compass, but remember that our cultural beliefs affect our views concerning the word of God.

"And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand: Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man"


Now, Does God call people to a higher calling. A nazarite vow is a prime example. No wine, grapes or even raisins. John the baptist - high calling. Are we priest.......yes, does god have high calling for us....... has god called us to be separate? yes.

Now the other side, do you eat your ham sandwich in front of your vegetatian friend? Or jewish friend? Causing them to stumble?

But Paul said " I have become all thing to all people, that I may win the more"

[ 08-20-2003, 06:12 AM: Message edited by: Eric W. ]

[happybrew]

I recently got a CD set with all of the National Geographics on it from the start through 2000. I was looking for some articles on Vikings for my kids homeschooling history projects. In one of them there was a Viking leader who took his boats down the Dnieper River into the Black Sea, and decided he'd had enough of paganism, and was shopping around for a new religion. He rejected Islam because of its prohibition on alcohol, and embraced Christianity because it did not prohibit alcohol. In this case, a prohibition on alcohol was the stumbling block. Just imagine: a huge swath of Eastern and Northern Europe could have been Islamic had this not been a stumbling block, or could have remained pagan much longer had Christianity prohibited alcohol. There is no biblical prohibition on alcohol properly used. If it is a stumbling block for your brother, then don't drink with him. If it's a stumbling block to place restrictions that are clearly not in the Bible, then don't place restrictions that are not in the Bible. Jesus was accused of being a drunkard, as were his disciples. The Apostles at Pentecost had to fend off accusations of drunkneness on Pentecost saying it was only nine in the morning, the implication being that it was too early for alcohol, but they might imbibe later. Obviously the reputation, wrongly deserved, of being drunk was not a stumbling block for their contemporaries, as Christianity spread like wildfire. Note the charge was not that they drank, but that they were drunk. There are monasteries in Europe that produce beer, and in Italy and the Middle East that produce wine, and it's been this way for centuries, if not over a thousand years. Are there people who provide a stumbling block by the overconsumption of alcohol? Absolutely. I've seen them. Are there also people who provide a stumbling block by pointing fingers and placing non-biblical restrictions? Yes, I've seen those too. Are there non-Christians who won't enter the Church because it doesn't prohibit alcohol? I doubt it, although drunkenness will drive people away. Are there people who will leave a church or not enter it because it does? Yes. All things in moderation. When moderation is abandoned in either direction, that is when stumbling blocks are raised.

happybrew (still keeping my sig and monicker, thinking about a different avatar, though.)

[LIMIT LANDER]

Happybrew....I hope this viking leader came to christianity because of what Christ did for him and not because he could not just drink alocohol. When you say that Jesus was accused of being a drunkard it wasnt because he drank it was because of "guilty by association" remember the Jews were trying to trap Jesus in to anything so they could do away with his priest hood. And Christ with his high athority in the Jewish community , if Christ with his, rabiatical standing, came to someones house they wouldnt even think of asking him if he wanted a drink. But he went to someones house to bring him the good news. So when he came to visit them they were astonished, because the other Jewish leaders wouldnt think of going to a sinners home, expecially a home of a drunkard. so when he did this they naturally accused him of being a drunkard. Because he came to save the lost. Im sure if today if Christ got a call from someone at the down town bar and they said , "Jesus Rabbi I am lost and cant take it any more please come down and help me" The normal Jewish Rabbi would even think of going to a place like that for he was more involved with what other people would think of him , than the man that needed spiritual help. But Christ would have walked right in to the bar giving the guy good news and forgiving him of his sin, when the left they probably left together. And if some one from the local Jewish Synagogue saw this boy! let me tell you Jesus was seen leaving a bar with a known drunk, so Jesus must be a drunkard!. You see Jesus came to take people out of there sin, not to join them in there sin.

[lost_sailor]

Originally posted by Grantspastor:

People don't go to hell for drinking. People go to hell for rejecting Jesus. <font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">Does this mean that Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, etc., as in 2/3 of the people on earth are "going to hell" ??

Jesus and his gang were into the wine, as I recall.

[steelhead22]

I'm confused, I see what you are saying here, and I commend you for it, but I don't think I look at it the same way. I don't want to be a stumbling block for anyone either, but how many things does this apply to. Couldn't anything be a stumbling block, not just alcohol. It seems like it's different if you KNOW that you're placing a stumbling block in their path. I wouldn't drink if I knew that my brother had a problem with alcohol, but your saying not to drink because their is a possibility that someone around you may have a problem with it that you are unaware of? It just seems to me that with that mentality you couldn't do ANYTHING because it could potentially be a stumbling block for someone. Am I getting this right, or am I way off?

What if his stumbling block is, let's say, women. Say you take him to a baseball game, he meets a woman, he goes home with her and there you go, he's stumbled. That's your fault? Maybe it's the woman's fault? I don't think so. How about this, a doctor prescribes pain medicine for someone and they abuse them. He doesn't know that they will, but he knows the possibility exists and he's given them the means to stumble, is it his fault? He was just trying to help, right?

You've made the choice not to drink, if that was your stumbling block then I understand that and good for you. If your not doing something you want to because of the possibiliey that it's someone else's stumbling block, then you better not do anything again. I guess I just look at it like, if I stumble, then that's my deal and I'm not going to blame anyone else for that. As a thinking human being I must try to avoid stumbling blocks and avoid intentionally placing them in front of others. You probably have stumbling blocks, and you do your best to avoid these I'm sure, and if someone was deliberately placing one in your path I know you would avoid them, can't everyone else think for themselves to? If I had a problem with alcohol I would appreciate that you didn't drink around me, but I wouldn't think that you should stop drinking just because I might stop by unannounced. Am I getting this right?

It's interesting to see other's views on this, and I must say, your view does make sense even if it's different than mine. Very good post, thanks.

[happybrew]

Originally posted by lost_sailor:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="verdana,arial,helv">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">Originally posted by Grantspastor:

People don't go to hell for drinking. People go to hell for rejecting Jesus. <font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">Does this mean that Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, etc., as in 2/3 of the people on earth are "going to hell" ??

Jesus and his gang were into the wine, as I recall. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">If one has never had the chance to know Jesus in a way that would lead to their either accepting or rejecting Him, then no, they don't reject Jesus, and they're not necessarily going to Hell. As long as people are cooperating with the grace of God, as they have it, they're not going to Hell. Drinking a beer does not constitute a rejection of Jesus. Drunkeness, which the Bible clearly prohibits, does constitute a rejection of Jesus if someone knows it's wrong and does it anyway. At the very least it would be a barrier to their relationship with Him.

happybrew

[steelhead22]

BuckisMunz and SKP- You both make great points and I thank you for clearing up some of my confusion. It makes sense to me. I feel like I need to defend myself though, Buck. "And I guess the next question would be, If drinking for you is no big deal, then why cant you quit drinking?" Hold on there a second, it isn't that I can't quit drinking, I'm just questioning whether it is necessary or not. You make a good point that it is necessary for Christians to not drink, well done. But I still think that a glass of wine with my salmon dinner or some pizza and beer are great and I really don't want to give that up if I'm not hurting anyone. It's not that I can't, I just really don't want to. Does that make me a bad person? Hmmmmm.....lots to think about.

Again great post, it really makes you think about things.

[BuckisMunz]

Yeah, that was a question that didn't have much thought before I posted. The general purpose of that question was basically, "Would you give it up if you had too, or would you give it up if you knew that someday you might offend, cause someone to stumble or whatever."

Say you drink beer in the privacy of your own home, You keep the beer in your fridge. Then your son who is 8years old has a friend over, Your Son and his buddy find the beer in your fridge, crack it open and take turns drinking beer because they know its bad, but they can get away with it. This is a story of myself when I was 8 years old, My first beer...
Or lets say your not even drinking beer, but having a conversation with a friend about "how you enjoyed your beer with your pizza last night" and word gets around that you drink alcohol.
The list could go on and on about scenarios where word get's out about so in so drinking.

Now if Drinking beer in today's society wasn't about getting drunk, or seeing how smashed you can get at Spring Break. thank you MTV. NOT!!! Then it'd probably be an entire different story. But in today's society we have AA meetings, Kids, youth, college aged people dying from Acohol Poisoning. Girls getting date "sexually assaulted", Drunk drivers killing innocent people, homes being wrecked because of addiction, and just overall destruction. But yet, we still sit back, and flirt with one of the most destructive habits and say "It's alright, I'm just drinking one beer."

Don't get me wrong either. Moderation is AWESOME!!, but the society/entertainment/TV/Radio we live in has RUINED the idea of moderation. There is no moderation being preached. it's all "LETS GET TRASHED". So in the end, we sit back and basically support this kind of behavior. I know that sounds really harsh, and I might even be slammed by saying that, but in actuallity it's the same as listening to Heavy Metal. I have supported Outwardly Satanic Musical Artist by just buying they're CD's.

I will leave you with that.

[LIMIT LANDER]

SKP...if you think muslims and buddaist will be in heaven...you better rethink what heaven you are going to. you need a good background knowledge of what buddaist and muslims believe in and mayby you will change your mind a little bit. Dont just "shoot scripture from the hip" you are stating alot of liberal theoligy that is from the pit of hell today. Drinking a beer or having a drink will not send anyone to hell I agree with you on that point. but thinking about your self in over indulging and hurting the consience of a weeker brother is a sin. and a continuing on of that sin may mean there is no Holy Spirit speaking to you and if there is no Holy Spirit speaking to you with a consience, then I wonder if a person is saved at all, or there consience as been seared with a hot iron, because the Holy Spirit is our guide to eternal life.

[happybrew]

John 10:16
I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

Do you know all of the sheep Jesus calls?

[LIMIT LANDER]

Happybrew..if you are refering to me...it is obvious Christ isnt talking about the occult he is talking about Jews and gentials anyone with a little Biblical sence would know that. contex, contex, contex...dont just use a scripture with out its contex. satan tried to do that to Jesus in the desert and failed miserably .

[happybrew]

Were the gentiles not pagans?

[LIMIT LANDER]

Yes but they were converted to Christians...they didnt stay muslim or buddaist...or hindu or any other cultic religion...we may missunderstand each other here...if so we are human.

[happybrew]

"Paul, standing in the middle of the Are-opagus, said: "Men of Athens, I perceive that in every way you are very religious. 23 For as I passed along, and observed the objects of your worship, I found also an altar with this inscription, 'To an unknown god.' What therefore you worship as unknown, this I proclaim to you. 24* The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in shrines made by man, 25 nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all men life and breath and everything. 26 And he made from one every nation of men to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their habitation, 27 that they should seek God, in the hope that they might feel after him and find him. Yet he is not far from each one of us, 28* for 'In him we live and move and have our being'; as even some of your poets have said, 'For we are indeed his offspring.'" Acts 17:22-28

Here, Paul is quoting a Greek Stoic philosopher, Arastus, in a poem called Phaenomenae. In it, Arastus begins with

Let us begin with Zeus, whom we mortals never leave unspoken.
For every street, every market-place is full of Zeus.
Even the sea and the harbour are full of this deity.
Everywhere everyone is indebted to Zeus.
For we are indeed his offspring...

So Paul quotes a Greek philosopher who begins by invoking Zeus. Furthermore, he also quotes Epimenides, another Greek philosopher who professed to be a prophet of Apollo, who said ?in him we live and move and have our being.? Paul recognized the search for God that all men are compelled toward. This search for God is the most important search in our lives. Yet there are people deprived of the Gospel, and there are others who live in circumstances where they cannot realistically be expected to accept the Gospel. God did not create people just to put them in circumstances beyond their control that would destroy them. God is a God of mercy and love. Paul did not condemn their search for God. Paul utilized what they had accomplished in their search for God to bring them into the fullness of truth. If Paul can find the value in pagan writings, and use them to bring the people of Athens to Christ, so too can we. Experience among missionaries has shown that the most successful way to bring

[happybrew]

[ 08-20-2003, 09:24 PM: Message edited by: happybrew ]

[happybrew]

[ 08-20-2003, 09:25 PM: Message edited by: happybrew ]

[BuckisMunz]

graemlins/idea.gif Maybe you guys need to start another Topic. And Battle it out in there... graemlins/icon_argue.gif I just don't want this thread getting too off course of the subject.

[LIMIT LANDER]

Buck thats ok....im finished, I have learned a long time ago that you cannot argue against liberal theoligy they take scripture out of context, so much that the light they cannot see. we just have to pray that the lord will open their eyes. In the last days our lord tells us that "many amoung you" meanning Christians "will depart the faith giving heed to doctrine of devils", drawing men away for the sake of private gain'. And liberal theoligy does just that. So I am finished, arguing is not in the spirit of love. you made a good point about drinking Buck...you will highly be rewarded for it. Lord bless

[SCUTZ ZA]

Buckismunz,
Yo this is Braatz from central oregon. I like the thread, and I like your views. At times Im asked to go have a cold one after work with my co-workers. I always decline and they never ask why, but I always wonder what they think. You my brother have shown me a few things here that I will try to do. What is it about the brew that makes people sacrifice so much, lives, family, loved ones, God. My personal defenition of addiction is "Short term benefit equals long term destruction". I work with kids and this is what I preach. I guess it is time for myself to look out for my brothers and sisters. Thanks for the thread Buck.

[BuckisMunz]

Ahh, yes, I Have even more scripture to add to this thread. Steelhead, of course my early passage 1 Cor 8: constitutes more than just drinking or eating. This offers an entire higher level of thought now.

Now instead of taking your buddy to a baseball game, you took him to lets say, a strip club, well then obviously you are going to cause him to stumble. Like the passage says, "So this weak brother, for whom christ died, is distroyed by your knowledge" Obviously it should be a way of life for us to just worry about ourselves. But it's not, when we are raised into the spotlight "My view is, your raised into the spotlight once you become a christian". Then you have a Moral obligation to live according to the scriptures. I have never once said that Drinking Beer is a Sin. Atleast I hope I haven't. Rather what I'm saying is, Why even drink if there's even more chance with drinking to mess up someone's view on christianity, or life up?

Romans 14:16-21
"Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil, for the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who servers Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men.
19. Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall."

This yet is another straight forward passage.

We should be accountable to ourselves, and we shouldn't have to worry about how people view us. But that's not the case. But what I'm talking about is drinking. These verses that I quote out of the bible are there to support my views on drinking and nothing else. I personnally think that everyone should quit drinking because of how damaging it can be to someone. And I guess the next question would be, If drinking for you is no big deal, then why cant you quit drinking?

I'm very strongly opinionated about this. I'm also trying to break down my walls of my dogmatic views, so that I can understand where you all are coming from on all this. But obviously more research is required...

[SKP]

You have to go with what the Bible says. People are throwing there own thoughts in here. You can't do that. It's God's Word and God's rules only that we have to live by.

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead so that they are without excuse. KJV (KJV = King James Version). Almost an exact quote from the Bible, but I cant remember the reference.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life. KJV (punctuation probably quoted wrong).

If you believe in Him, you will not perish. Anyone has the choice to go to heaven. No one is excluded.

He that hath the Son hath life, and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life, but the wrath of God abideth on him. KJV (Sorry, I left my Bible at home today, so I can only go from memory).

I believe you will see Muslims, Baptists, Pentecostals, Buddhists, and the rest in both heaven and hell. What matters is not the religion, but whether you chose the gift of God.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. KJV

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. KJV

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, that shalt be saved. KJV

Whether you drink alcohol or not has no bearing on your eternity.

Even after you get saved, we still sin. I wish is wasn't true, but we do. We have a sinful nature, not a perfect nature. We still have lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes, and the pride of life - those are the human sins in a nutshell.

There are only two groups in the world, those that are saved and those that are not. Everyone is either saved or not. Of course there are those that have not accepted Jesus that will go to heaven. Babies that die are just one example. They were never given the chance to choose. But God will hold accountable those that had the chance to accept him and didn't take it. This includes those that have the chance, but are putting it off for whatever reason. Don't put it off until it is too late.

As it is appointed unto man once to die, but after this the judgement. KJV (from memory again, and can't remember the reference). Once we die, if you have not yet "got saved" it will be too late.

Are you 100% sure you have your eternity sealed in heaven? When you die and stand before God, and he asks why He should let you into His heaven, how are you going to respond? Good works? Good deeds? You believed in Him? God's word only gives one right answer for this.

You can be 100% sure. I John 5:13 Things things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the son of God, that ye may KNOW that you have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. KJV (I wish I had my Bible here to quote all these verses perfectly, oh well)

Unfortunately, my lunch is over, so I've got to cut this short now. I wish I could put more.

Drinking beer and the like are not going to prevent you from going to heaven. I don't see that in the Bible. Drinking beer in your own privacy might not cause others to stumble, except perhaps yourself.

SKP

[happybrew]

I'm hardly a liberal.

[ 08-21-2003, 07:32 AM: Message edited by: happybrew ]

[lost_sailor]

The whole "my God is better than your God" is exactly what repels me from ... certain religions. Referring to other beliefs as "pagan" is just rude.

God made yeast, yeast makes beer. Case closed


:cheers:

[happybrew]

Wait a minute, LS! Didn't you say "I've been calling myself a "free-form Pagan Buddhist" and am pretty comfortable with that at this point."? Is there a different name you would prefer? I certainly wouldn't want to be rude. I disagree with those who want to condemn everyone else to hell. Heck, I've just been told I'm following the doctrine of the devil by someone who doesn't even know what doctrine I do follow. Chin up LS. We can lounge together at the Lake of Fire Resort with a beer in one hand, and a fishing pole in the other. I wonder if they have boat rentals?

happybrew

[BuckisMunz]

God made earth, earth makes Marijuana, Case Closed...

God Made Man, Man makes Cocaine, Case Closed

RIIIGHT!!! Lost Sailor, I'm sorry man, but I'm going to have to shoot that idea down.

[ 08-21-2003, 09:23 AM: Message edited by: BuckisMunz ]

[SKP]

Limit Lander,

Please provide a chapter and verse from the Bible where Muslims and Buddhists cannot enter heaven. Only those that reject Him will not. All that accept the Lord will go to heaven - Buddhists, murders, sinners, beer drinkers etc... Jesus came to save sinners of which we all are. Buddhists do get saved, Baptists do get saved, Pagans do get saved, and so on. Also, other Buddhists do not get saved, other Baptists do not get saved, other pagans do not get saved, and so on if they have not accepted Him. Salvation has absolutely nothing to do with man's religion, but all to do with Jesus Christ.

If Buddhists, Muslims, Hindu's and the like can't go to heaven, why did Paul travel on his missionary journeys? Why do missionaries continue to go to other countries today? You walk out of the door of a church, and you are in the mission field.

John 3:16

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life.

And there are many more versus like that, read my previous post for more.

To all ifishers:

You know what is more fun than fishing for salmon? Fishing for men. There is nothing like seeing someone bow their head in belief and accept Jesus, which starts the change in their life. :grin: I'd recommend any ifisher to try it. I'd recommend going out on visitation with your church and pastor. I'll be fishing this Sunday afternoon at the Marion County Jail. We do three services a month there. Please pray for us. Fishing for men is just like fishing for fish. You have to try all kinds of things, and eventually you get bites. Once in a while, you draw in the net, and another soul is on his or her way to heaven! YAHOOOOOOOO!!!! :dance: Please pray for the Oregon State Fair, as our church is manning a "soul winning booth" and passing out tracts, and "fishing for men". Last year, over 50 souls accepted the Lord, people from all over the place attending the fair in Salem.

I can't wait.

SKP

[lost_sailor]

Originally posted by BuckisMunz:
God made earth, earth makes Marijuana, Case Closed...

God Made Man, Man makes Cocaine, Case Closed

RIIIGHT!!! Lost Sailor, I'm sorry man, but I'm going to have to shoot that idea down. <font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">(God made coca, Man made cocaine)

Genesis chapter 1
" 11 Then God said, "Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds." And it was so. 12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening, and there was morning-the third day.
...
29 Then God said, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. 30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the ground-everything that has the breath of life in it-I give every green plant for food." And it was so.
31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning-the sixth day. "

Happy, it's perfectly OK (though not very precise) to call me a pagan. I'm just not sure my Jewish or Muslim friends would appreciate it. They are devout believers, not godless heathen.

Any God worth believing in is not going to send good people to eternal torment. I'm not worried.

Guys, I have to apologize for straying from the original topic, which I don't feel qualified to comment on, and in hindsight should not have. You're free to ignore me, of course. Just trying to voice a different point of view.

:cool:

[SKP]

lost_sailor:

You are right, the Bible says: In II Peter 3:9, "The Lord is not slack concerning [His] promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance." KJV. God is not going to send anyone to eternal torment. He made the way out.

This is why He died on the cross. He made the way for all, it's up to us to receive God's FREE gift of salvation. It does not cost anything. When it's your birthday, you are given gifts. But if you refuse them, they are not yours. You have to reach out and receive them. Sinners have to reach out and receive God's free gift of salvation.

If you are on a boat salmon fishing, and the boat is sinking, and your fishing buddy threw you a life vest, and you refuse to take it, instead trying to save your self your own way, and perish, you are to blame, not the giver of the life vest. Jesus is the giver, and the life vest is salvation through Jesus death, burial, and resurrection. All you have to do is reach out and receive the free gift.

Ephesians 2:8-9 says, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." KJV

Romans 10:13 says, "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. KJV

God made is so simple. He could have said, you can't go to heaven unless you catch 20 salmon a year for 23 years straight, give $60/month to ifish, and then give two years of your life to feed the poor, or whatever. Nope, salvation is so simple, that I don't understand why anyone would refuse.

My afternoon break is up, got to go.

SKP

[Fishrite]

What a post!! You have got people thinking and this is good. I agree with most of you that Christians should not drink. I am a Christian and I do not drink at all. I have chosen not to drink because of my faith and because of what I know about alcohol. I was a health teacher for 30 years in Portland. I taught sophomores in high school. We looked at the affects of alcohol on the body. Alcohol simply is not good for you. There is not one positive thing that you can say that alcohol consumption does for you. It ruins families, and marriages. It cost the American taxpayers $50 billion is lost man hours every year. It costs lives (thousands die on our highways every year). Over 90% of all domestic violance is a result of alcohol. Most crimes are commented by people who drink. Most college rapes are committed by those that have consumed alcohol in the last 6 hours. I could go on forever..... it is not good for anyone to drink.....but most of all those who call themselves Christians. And remember that the word Christian means... a follower of Christ... I really think that it would be wise to ask ourselves the question. What would Jesus do? If He were here walking with us today....would He drink? Or better yet, would you drink if He was right there with you? For me, I know the answer...it would be NO! Thanks for the post....it has made us all think.....Fishrite