Lets have some imput here...

[LIMIT LANDER]

During the last year I was in Multnomah Bible College, we had a very interesting discussion in one of our evening classes. One of my class mates sister (who professed to be a Christian) was living with the guy she was going to marry, they were going to get married in approx 6 mounths. He ask the question "is my sister living in sin?". we had 3-4 people at thet time that were promenant local Pastors taking the night course called "The falts with Liberal Theology" the discussion went on for approx two nights. It was a amazeing to see how we finnally came to one agreement. Pastors who had canceled men and women who were living together and planning on getting Married. And how sincere the people were but they were sincerly wrong!.what are your thought on this subject! :wink:

[Cool Texan]

I lived with my now wife for almost a year before we were married (lived together for 3-4 months before getting engaged). Here are my thoughts....

No matter what I do, I am a sinner. God knows this, and thankfully, Jesus assured me of my forgiveness.

God also knows my true heart, as well as the true heart of my wife. He knew that we were on the right track, that neither had any doubts that we would be married, and that our love was pure.

I believe that living together prior to marriage is important. It helps you verify that you can relate to that person day in day out. In our case, it helped us move towards the point in our relationship where we wanted to actively seek out a church, and begin learning more about our Christian lives together.

I hope and trust that God understands why we chose to live together.

I'm actually hoping Grantspastor will chime in on this one.

[Thumper]

I have encouraged my three sons and one granddaughter to live together with their intended partners and be intimate before even considering marriage. Marriage is forever. Best learn about your partner ahead of that commitment.

And that comes from a formerly good Catholic. If the Pope ever decides to agree, I'm back!!!

[CATCH AND EAT]

I am sure there are a lot of opinions out there regarding this issue. Mine is that many test drives in marriage end with divorce. WE have had this happen in our family line more than a few times. Very sad.

Living together as I see it is a mutual use arrangement that lacks TOTAL commitment of the heart, mind, body and soul to each other. It's kind of like living in an appartment rent free, not strings attached, where you can just walk away if something better comes along.

Marriage is like your Christian life. It is faith, hope for the future and love that will carry you through it. Society today has made it so easy to just dump your mate that the words "til death do you part" mean nothing. Pretty sad commentary on todays society.

Living together with the intent of marriage sounds wonderful. Is it sin? I believe it is. It is a moral issue of a commitment between a man and a woman. Yes, we all grow up being taught different morals. Look at society today and compare it to society of the 50's. Man...divorce or to be divorced was very taboo and frowned upon. Now, if you are not divorce 2 or three times you are not with the program.

So is it a sin? my answer is yes. Can you be forgiven? Most absolutly positively yes! The God of grace forgives these transgressions. I therefore do not condone living together before marraige. I do not judge people that chose this way of life. Many are happy with this kind of commitment. I think the commitment of marriage seals the love between man and woman.

Now that I have stated my opinion which you asked for I will say this. It was not my intent to offend by responding. Just offering my honest opinion on the matter at hand. It's a can of worms ya opened here CT. I am glad that you and your wife made the commitment to each other in marriage and that you are continuing to grow in Christ and in the church. That is so cool. Thus, Cool Texan. :wink:

That's my .02 cents. :smile:

[Cool Texan]

No offense taken. :grin:

Its a tough one to answer...is it, or isnt it?!? Only one person knows the answer. I'll ask Him when I see Him, but I'm hoping that isn't any time soon!! :shocked: :grin:

[happybrew]

Besides what C&E said, cohabitation prior to marriage increases the likelihood of divorce by 45%, and harms the relationship precisely because it is a "test drive". Successful marriages are built on mutual self-giving love. Cohabitation as a "test-drive" takes the emphasis off of the self-giving, making marriage into a contract of mutual taking, where taking satisfaction rather than giving satisfaction becomes the goal. Also, if children result, but the marriage does not take place, the child is deprived of the benefit of two committed, married parents.

happybrew

[Hoosier Daddy]

I don't have a real strong opinion on this topic, but my personal statistics are: 1 marriage with pre-shacking-up = ended in divorce; 1 marriage, no shacking-up = still going and perfectly happy.

Of course there is more to the story, but.....

[Lefty]

Tough one......I could go both ways and see both sides.....but shacking up before marriage 0 for 2 for me........never got married in either case but sure thought I was going too..

[Cool Texan]

Prior to my wife and I living together, she wanted some sort of assurance that we were "on the right track" for something serious. If I had only wanted to shack up for the shagging up and the food preparation, it would not have happened. Once I assured her that yes, I was on the track she wanted me to be on in order for us to live together, she moved in. We knew we were going to get married, there was no doubt about it.

In our dating, we were having to make dates to NOT see each other....the other 5 days a week we were together. So the separate rents were just silly. She moved in around October I think, and in March we got engaged. She is now 7 weeks pregnant.

I think its all a matter of preference. I really dont think that it impacts the success of the marriage unless one party or the other is not living with the other with marriage in mind. I think the 45% thing probably includes a lot of people who live together, where one person is ultimately pressured or trapped into marriage. Just my $0.02.

[SCUTZ ZA]

"For all have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God." It is 100% a sin. Yes we are all sinners. I do not believe a "Test drive" is right. There is no such thing as a perfect marriage. Christ is who each partner needs to rely on and consult with, without him it becomes hard. My wife and I have spats, but we chose to glorify God and work things out, Divorce is not a option. Divorce is a selfish way out, some is justified, but not many are. "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me" Phil. 4:13

[ 08-06-2003, 07:07 AM: Message edited by: SCUTZ ZA ]

[Fishalot]

1 John 3:6
No one who lives in Him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen Him or knows him.

A person chosen by God/Christian has the power through the Holy Spirit to not sin. We all have the temptation to sin, however a Christian has the power to not give in to the temptation.

Romans 6:1
What shell we say then? Shell we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?


Dylan

[Grantspastor]

I'm with Fishalot

[Eric W.]

I wonder what would happen if God decided to "test drive" us for a while......See he doesn't work that way. Marriage was Gods idea, and held is word to use, to love us always, not forsaking us for others. Marriage says "richer, poorer, sickness and health". Test drive = when I get sick of ya, then i am out!!!! "while we were yet sinners, christ was crucified", even though we were not worthy of his love, he did "test drive" he went all the way. He gave his life. We are asked to do the same in our relationships. "men, love you wife as christ loved the church"

Doesn't sound like a "test drive"


commitment without commitment is no commitment!

[Cool Texan]

So am I destined to burn in the hell-fire for living with now wife prior to us being married?

Praise Jesus, I am not. :bowdown:

[Eric W.]

And thank God you are not going to burn in hell. We do serve a living, forgiving God. Jesus told the adultrous woman, "go and sin no more". She got right. We cannot even begin to measure Gods forgiveness. But it is not a liscense. You made it right. For every 10 people who live together I bet only 1 -2 actually get married.

I want you to know that I will be the first to say that me and my wife, were "involved romantically" prior to marriage. I understand Gods grace. And am not perfect in any shape or form.


What advice would Jesus give in this situation?
To live together before marriage or not?

[letsfish]

I can understand the rational. But I also understand the power of the flesh, I can justify almost anything if I crave it badly enough. But it doesn't make it right before God. And that is what we are taking about.
Some further thoughts: what is "married"? We know what it means in our society- a state of matrimony resulting from a ceromony recognized by civil and religous bodies. But what did God have to say about it? Did he say "Shack up, test each other out, if things seem okay then your hitched"?
God left all the cultural fluff(wedding license, tatoos, age,rings etc) to be determined by deferent peoples as they function together as a society.
But sex where does that fit in? Sex is what it is all about, when you strip away the cultural diferences. It seems to me, as I read and understand it,God views sex is the consummation(completion,conclusion, the outcome) of the joining together of a man and woman not the predecessor.
Our feelings are strong, but not always right. We definitely can be sincerely wrong.

[Cool Texan]

Eric, you might be right with that one.

For us, we had no doubts we would get married. She moved in only knowing that we were on the marriage track, and shortly thereafter, I proposed. During the time we were living together, she and I talked about religion a lot. She was not raised in a church going home, and was filled with a lot of doubts (agnostic). I on the other-hand was raised to go to church, and after a vacation from it during college, I started going again. She and I "shopped" for the right church together, found it, were married in it, and at her request, we took a Disciple class together (highly recommended). She is now a baptized Christian! :dance: So I guess our living together was not all bad.

If God is mad at me about shacking up when I meet him, I'll remind him that I recruited one for his team. :grin:

[CATCH AND EAT]

CT, the important thing is how you are living now in Christ. The past is behind you. WE can say the same thing for ourselves about all of our pasts and past mistakes, ie sin. WE learn from it and we correct the behavior. This is an ongoing process in every single christians life. Temptation looms around each and every corner, nook and cranny of our lives. Sure is a good thing we have a forgiving God aye? I would be in serious trouble if he was'nt. I have to seek his forgivness everyday for both big and small transgressions.

CT you are on the right track now. Wonderful that you added another lamb to the shepards fold. Kudo's for that.

It is extremely distressing to see the lack of commitment our society shows toward marriage. A very sad commentary on the decline of our morals and mutual respect for each other as persons of self worth.

Thanks for the scriptures Fishalot. Ya got it right.

[happybrew]

I think an important thing to remember is that Christ calls us to repentence, as well as to forgiveness. The two are linked. Had the prodigal son never come home, he would never have been received into his father's loving embrace.
An important element of sin is the rejection of God's plan for us. So we can rely upon God's mercy, but to deliberately sin with that reliance on God's mercy in mind is to presume upon that mercy, and is yet another sin on top of the deliberate sin that also needs to be repented of, because it constitutes a rejection of God's plan, despite the desire for the outcome of that plan. God's mercy is enormous, but that is because our capacity to sin is enormous. Yet, despite this, our capacity to repent, thanks to the grace of the Holy Spirit, matches our capacity to sin. We access God's mercy through our repentence. We can only repent if we rely upon the action of the Holy Spirit in our lives, rather than our own wants and desires. Looking back at Exodus as a foreshadowing of Christ, the Israelites, by the mark of the blood of the lamb were passed over by God's judgement of those in Egypt. Yet, they still had to leave Egypt. So too, we must leave behind our slavery to sin, or else the Blood of the Lamb which is Jesus Christ does not benefit us.

happybrew

[ 08-06-2003, 11:54 AM: Message edited by: happybrew ]

[CATCH AND EAT]

What happybrew said. :cheers: graemlins/applause.gif

[ 08-06-2003, 12:26 PM: Message edited by: CATCH AND EAT ]

[happybrew]

Originally posted by big fishy:
Married to my shack-up now for almost 30yrs, one great daughter and a new grand-daughter. Stats also show that everybody that has eaten a pickle has died. None of you know me so please do not judge me, have a nice day. <font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">Who said anything about judging someone? I think we all have committed lots of sins, myself included. The topic was not whether anyone has done it, or whether marriages can be successful afterwards, because we all know lots of people have done it, and it doesn't mean a divorce will result later. However, lots of people, and I know lots of them, who have done it and had heartbreak result. It can go either way. Objectively speaking, it's a sin. So are a lot of things that people do. The reasons people do it are many and diverse, and that affects culpability. I lived with my wife for two weeks before we got married because both our roommates bailed on us, and we had no place else to stay until we got married unless we got an apartment together. Objectively speaking, it was not a good idea. And I'll continue to say that what I did was not a good idea till the day I die. Was I culpable? Is anyone else? That's for God to decide.

happybrew

[big fishy]

Married to my shack-up now for almost 30yrs, one great daughter and a new grand-daughter. Stats also show that everybody that has eaten a pickle has died. None of you know me so please do not judge me, have a nice day.

[Fisherfield]

What an interesting topic. I thought about it for about a minute...when I was 17..thinking, that I shouldn't live with my then girlfriend of a year. We needed a place to live, both of us wanted to be on our own...now graduated from high-school...thinking the world was our oyster. We lived together for 5 years...with the intention of someday getting married. To my admitted faults, we did not get married. Instead, I drank all the time and hated my life... I moved in with a friend...and continued to drink and be careless with my life. Then I met my Wife...then girlfriend. She owned a home and needed a roomate. We were only "dating" for 4 months when I decided to move in with her. 2 years later we got married and have been happy for the 5 years of our relationship. I don't do the things I once did when I was with the girlfriend..at a young age and have found that life is really worth living...1 child, amazing wife, and life. I know that life is a long Journey...and that there will be several bumps in the road. Marriage is intended to be forever...and that's, with gods help, what will be for myself and my best friend and wife. This came up at our meetings with the pastor of our church before we got married...and he didn't have anything to say about it...just that we should read the bible and see what God had to say about it. I have repented and pray for forgiveness.

[lost_sailor]

The notion of "marriage" came from the minds of humans, just like God and heaven and hell.

To each, his own.

[CATCH AND EAT]

Originally posted by lost_sailor:
The notion of "marriage" came from the minds of humans, just like God and heaven and hell.

To each, his own. <font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">What? :whazzup: So what the woman at the well did was okay? She had had 5 husbands and the man she currently living with was not her husband. Talking with Jesus and confessing her sin. He said go and sin NO MORE! A human idea? Sounds to me that God thought marriage was a good idea too. Nice try at stirring the pot from the humanistic point of view. :rolleyes:

[ 08-08-2003, 10:07 AM: Message edited by: CATCH AND EAT ]

[happybrew]

Originally posted by lost_sailor:
The notion of "marriage" came from the minds of humans, just like God and heaven and hell.

To each, his own. <font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">A couple of questions.

1. If the notion of marriage came from the minds of humans, how do you account for the widespread existence of marriage (and divorce) across widely varying cultures and time periods? It's prevalent across the world, and has been for thousands of years.

2. As far as the notion of God being a human creation, how do you account for:
a. The existence of everything.
b. The fact that DNA and protein chains are thermodynamically highly improbable to occur simply on their own?
c. That ancient philosophers living in polytheistic cultures came upon the idea of only a single God, and their arguments remain good to this day?
d. Miracles? I can point you to reliable testimony from the parents of a Down's Syndrome baby being healed of it, as a way of getting the father, a committed atheist, to return to God. There's tons of evidence of miracles, big and small. Most of them small. I've seen a couple, and known others who've seen miracles, which I don't care to discuss in this forum. I only talk about those face to face, and rarely.

3. If heaven and hell are human creations, you have absolutely no evidence to make a positive statement to that effect, because there can be no observational evidence for or against until after we die. You can certainly doubt it, but if it's a human idea, and not a reality, I don't know how you could prove a positive statement to that effect. I could present you with testimony to their existence, but unfortunately it can legitimately be viewed as legend, rather than fact.

happybrew

[Grantspastor]

And what if you're wrong? Lost Sailor

[lost_sailor]

Hmm? I'm willing to accept the possibility that there might be another life after this one. None of us have any solid evidence either way, for now I have to live this life as best I can.

But about the marriage question, I think it just depends on your own beliefs. You can't judge my life by your beliefs. We have to do whatever we think is right, that's what I meant by "to each, his own."

Of course, I just couldn't resist throwing out something contrary to Christian dogma, for a change of pace. I hope this "chapel" is open for everyone!

[Grantspastor]

As far as I'm concerned it is. From a Pastoral viewpoint my interest is to elevate and magnify Jesus as much as I can. I also choose not to take an adversarial position with people who disagree with me. There is no profit in that tactic...ever! This is simply such a serious question that we're dealing with that I feel compelled to bring some of these issues up.
I believe there are absolutes. They are outlined and explained in the Bible. The Bible says that any sexual activity (heterosexual or homosexual) outside the bonds of marriage is sin. The good news is there is a remedy for sin. What's more...there are none without sin. We all need the remedy. His Name is Jesus. I know what my life was like without Him, and I know what it is like with Him. No comparison!

Lost Sailor. If you decide to take a look at these issue, avoid religiosity, and the trappings of religiosity. Go directly to Jesus. He's closer than you think. Good luck, and no offense intended at all

[LIMIT LANDER]

Lost sailor...you are as much welcome in here as anyone. It is good to see some one voicing their opion, wether some agree with you or not. The point about living together before marriage is one in many subjects the the "True" Church has to deal with today, and I say "True" Church because their is a liberal Theoligy out there today telling us that that nomater how we sin it wont hurt us unless we Just believe in Jesus Christ our sins are automaticly forgivin. nothing can be farther from the truth. God judges sin, and he corrects and punishes his children, if he dosent then he had better go back and appoligize to King David for taking his first born, in judgment for his sin of lust, adultry and murder. Pastors and counslers through out the body of Christ would not be worth their weight in salt if when confronted with the question "can we live together before marriage" if they would not let them know what God says about the subject, according to his word,and im sure many do it in a gentel and loving way, as they should. The word "Fornication" in the Bible is ment in the Greek to mean, any unlawful sexual intercourse including adultry or "Illicit" sexual intercourse. which would mean having sex with out being married, according to Gods word. And may i add this is not pertaining to the people that are not Christian, but it is carried out by Christians through out the body of Christ also. What constitutes unlawful sex? Whose laws do we live by?. Worldly standards or laws many times do not always line up with with the word of God. The founding fathers of our Country established many laws that were based on Christian standards and the laws of the Bible. However, through time the United States has drifted far from these standards and at the moment our moral standards have been drifting away from the word of God. immorality is not only found in the United States but it has become a worlds wide epidemic. That is why Fornication is not just tolerated in our Country, but is encouraged, as many couples Christian and non-Christian live together and have sex before marriage. Many say they live together before marriage to see if they are compatiable as they dont want Divorce. This may sound like a justifiable reason for commiting the sin of fornication, but in Gods eyes its still sin. Living together shows a total lack of trust in God and a failure to commit to him the choosing the right mate. Christians who do this are out of the will of God and need to repent and seek God as to whether this mate is right one for them. Living together also is shameful and selfish as the parties do not care what others think or how they might affect their families and others for they are living to please their own lust and selfish desires. This life style is also distructive for children, whose parents are living a bad example before them. No wonder children are confused about wright and wrong when parents trample the santity of marriage by living out of wedlock. Just because society has accepted this type of living dosent make it wright. The Bible must be our standard of what is wright or wrong. Rember Gods hates sin, but he loves the sinner. So it is not my intent to judge anybody for they have already have been judged, by our Lord. and ill end with this loving verse taken out of Psalms 145;17-21 "The Lord is righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works. The Lord is close to all them that call upon him, to all that call upon him in truth. He will fulfill the desire of them that fear him: he will also hear their cry, and will save them. The Lord comforts all them that love him: but all the wicked he will distroy. My mouth shall speak the praise of the ALord : and let all flesh bless his holy name.

[happybrew]

Lost Sailor:

Belief in God has always seemed like such an obvious thing to me that I'm always interested in why someone would not believe in God. One of my college buddies was an atheist, and the opposite was true for him. For him, the questions I raised just didn't come up. He didn't feel the need to explain the existence of the universe, or of life and its meaning. He found it just as odd that someone would believe in God as I found it odd that someone would not.

You're right that we can't judge you, and I don't think anyone wants to. I think we're all mature enough here to separate the topic of discussion from the person we are discussing it with. As an example, I am a Catholic, and I make no secret of that fact, and have mentioned it several times. I know with certainty that there are many here who have serious issues with Catholic theology. It is highly probable that there are people here who believe that the Pope is the beast in Revelation, or the little horn of Daniel, or the antichrist, that Catholics commit idolatry, and a bunch of other very unflattering things about Catholicism. Yet no one has ever attacked my Catholic faith here, or even questioned it, and for that I am grateful. You're views are certainly going to arouse curiosity, but personal condemnation probably isn't going to happen.

happybrew

[LIMIT LANDER]

Remember we as Christians cannot judge a mans heart...but we must judge his behavior(1 cor.5:12)

[happybrew]

12What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."[2] 1 Cor 5:12-13

We are only to judge those inside the church. We can, however, make moral statements about which actions we believe are right and wrong, just as those outside the church can do as well.

happybrew

[Drakeblake]

This is a very interesting topic for me Im 19 and have been with my girl friend for three and a half years and we have not had sex. But the idea of us moving in together sometime in college has come up. So Im asking if it is still wrong to live together even though we are not having sex? Which is worse pre-marital sex or living together and not haveing sex?

-blake

[happybrew]

I would say that even if you don't have sex, you are putting yourself in the way of temptation. The temptation will be there in all likelihood. Even if it's not, you're putting yourself in a situation where you could be tempted. I don't know what your church teaches on that matter, but mine (Catholic) teaches that we are to avoid situations where we may be tempted. In addition, it would certainly give the appearance that you are having sex, and someone else may take that as an example that it's okay to do, simply because of appearances, which would be leading someone else into sin. Pray about it, and consult your pastor, as well as your parents and hers. Your pastor can lead you in the way you should go. While it's certainly not the same as having pre-marital sex, in my personal opinion, it's not a wise idea.

happybrew

[LIMIT LANDER]

drakeblake...do you really love the one you want to live with and if you do do you want to put her up to false accusations. we should shy away from the appearance of sin. protect her, cover her as christ would cover his church, keep her safe. physically , mentally and spirtually. you wont do it living together out of wedlock.

[lost_sailor]

Thanks for your tolerance and other comments. I never said I was a non-believer - who could watch the insect hatches on the Deschutes and remain an atheist? :smile: Perhaps more what I meant was that the "trappings of religion" were created by Man, and if you believe something, that's as "real" as it needs to be, or can be.

My own belief is in something more like "The Force" than your Judeo-Christian Yahweh or your Muslim Allah. Buddhism seems to fit my mind better than most organized religion, though I've never explored any of the ritual or community. I've been calling myself a "free-form Pagan Buddhist" and am pretty comfortable with that at this point. It certainly allows me to keep an open mind, but evangelizing repels me.

Don't panic, I'm married to a Christian and the kids are being raised in the Methodist church, albeit with a freaky hippie Dad. I do like the Methodist approach of doing good works in the world, I think that's really close to what Christ was teaching.

I'll try not to cause disruption, but I might pop up with other viewpoints on occasion. Only about 1/3 of the world is Christian. :shocked:

[LIMIT LANDER]

lost-sailor you are welcome any time, you cannot cause anymore disruption that is caused amoung Christians in the Church today.

[Drakeblake]

Thank you all for your responses. I am a Catholic and my girlfriend is Luthern. And we know that both things are wrong in the eyes of our churches and God. Happy Brew and Limit Lander... You both mentioned we would be giving the assumption to others that we are having sex but isnt the only opinion that maters the opinion of God? Thanks

-Blake

[happybrew]

No, it's not the only opinion that matters. Again, your example affects the behavior of other people. People will assume that you are having sex, and this will be an example to other people. If you decide to get married, you will not just be marrying her, but marrying into a family. Their opinion of you will matter both for you and for her. Again, would you rather they have the opinion of you as a standup guy, or as the guy who was living with their daughter, and may or may not have been pressured to tie the knot? And do you seriously think that if you're living together that you won't have sex? Come on, you're only human. Why put yourself through that, even if you don't have sex? There's no good reason for it. I would like to suggest a couple of books for you. For her, I would suggest "The ABC's of Choosing a Good Husband" by Steve Wood, and "The ABC's of Choosing a Good Wife", also by Steve Wood. You can find them

here (http://www.familylifecenter.net/index.cfm?user=46205048)

Remember, you only want to do the finding a wife thing once, so you have to get it right the first time, and not make mistakes. Don't let your heart get ahead of your brain. Also, if you eventually want to get married in the Church, she will have to agree that she's open to kids, and that they will be raised Catholic. How does she feel about that? It's best to find out now rather than later. I've got nine brothers and sisters, and I've seen all but three of them make mistakes that have cost them a lot of pain. I'd hate to see you go through the same thing. God has a plan for us, and it's for our own good. When you don't follow that plan, you're going to be unhappy, or at least risk a lot of misery. When you do follow that plan, it can be difficult, but you will be rewarded. There's no guarrantees, but that's generally the way it works. There's no accounting for someone else not following God's plan and making you miserable as a result, so you really need to be careful.

happybrew

[ 08-11-2003, 10:47 PM: Message edited by: happybrew ]

[LIMIT LANDER]

Drakeblake...my friend....there is a story in the scriptures when Jesus came down and rested with his disciples he ask them.."who do people say that I, the son of man am?"...and so some of them said "some say that you are John the Baptist, some sy Elijah, and maby you are Jeremiah, or one of the Prophets, and then he ask "who do you say that I am" Peter spoke up and said "you are the Christ son of the living God!". and so Drakeblake who do you say that he is?...Christ is not Baptist, he is not Cathlioc, he is not luthern nor is he Penecostal...he is God..It dosent mater what we think our how we feel, God sets the laws on how we live and tells us how we are live according to his word...dont be deceived into thinking that because it feels good or it seems wright it must be blessed by God...and if you say Christ is the Son living God...then you must put his lordship before your feelings and thoughts...and he says that Fornication is a sin...and if you say " We dont have sex". then we are suppose to stay away from even the appearance of evil or sin. so whether you live together hand have sex or not it is still wrong in Gods eyes. Who are you serving Drakeblake your desires or God?...dont deceive your self...remember our Lord makes a very strong statement when he teaches "in the last day those that do the will of my father will come into everlasting life" and some will say on that day...Lord, Lord have not we done miracles, and cast out demons and other good works before your name" Christ tells them " depart from me you who work evil,into everlasting punishment I never knew you"..you see drakeblake these people were deceived into thinking, that because the works they did were good, they thought it was wright, their fellings were ok. They even carried the name of Christ, but Christ was not their Lord. They only served themselves.

[lost_sailor]

I recommend against living together for entirely non-religious reasons! Living with anyone is challenging - trying to go to school and maintain a home will really stress your relationship. You're young, give it a few years.

As to sex ... if you know the risks and are able to deal with the results, by all means. If it's contrary to your beliefs (not someone else's beliefs) then of course NO.

You're 19, you've been together over 3 years and no sex - - that is some world class willpower! :bowdown:

[fishonksm]

Remember the saying you can’t clean a fish till you catch a fish. So if you’ve been caught by the saving grace of our lord Jesus Christ then you must begin to clean up your life. And that begins by doing away with sin in your life, even the appearance of sin. Living together for a Christian gives the appearance of sin, for a man shall leave his mother and a woman leave her home and they shall live as one. Trying things out before marriage just leads to bigger problems. For all things are lawful , because of gods grace, but not all things are profitable
I don’t want to get stuck in the “realityisum” of this world. Realityisum is the thinking that what’s ok with you is ok with me. Not so, the reality is, is there is a dividing line between heaven and hell, between right and wrong, between good and evil. We as Christians need to know where these boundaries are and try as best we can to keep from crossing them and adding sin to our lives.
Why would someone intentionally cross back and forth from sin? To me that only cheapens’ the grace afforded to you. For Christ suffered once, for all.
God gave us the Ten Commandments to live perfect lives, but because of mans evil, wicked heart Moses gave us the Levitical Law and we as human beings have been going down hill ever since.

[lost_sailor]

Doesn't God know the difference between sin and the "appearance of sin" ?

And can I get a Bible reference for the "appearance of sin" avoidance? I promise to read it.

[LIMIT LANDER]

Lost-sailor yes God does the difference between "appearance of evil or sin" and commiting the true thing. In 1 Thessalonians 5:22. Paul it telling them to "abstain from all appearance of evil" now the words he is using were pertaining to those Christians that came from very Legalistic background. And the Greek words Paul was using was to keep Christians from offending the weeker brother, because it is a sin to offend those that are having a hard time excepting the freedom that the Gentile Christians had. The law we live under now as Christians is the "Law of love" we dont live for ourselves but for others. Now if you and your wife are away someplace and you both want to have a white russian and can handle it, its up to you and your consience to go ahead. but if you know someone is going to come in that sees you and you know it can offend them. Paul says "dont". So when someone says they are going to live together, that in it self will offend someone, because many feel that living with someone is only done when two people are married. now there are many grey areas of our life that the Bible dosent exactly pin point. so what we go by is, will this hurt someone else if they see me do this, that is Love working at its best. So in 1 Thess. 5:22 Paul is realy saying, in the Greek, "no mater what form evil takes, stayaway from it". and if the form takes on offending your Christian brother, dont do it!. I hope this helps

[STGRule]

Everything else aside, it comes down to you getting to stand in judgement. That will be by God, not anybody else. God knows what you meant when you did things. I believe you will be judged by your intent, not your actions. The reason I believe this is I see a bunch of "Good Christians" that will likely fail the God-Test because while they went to church, said their prayers, and put up the good front, their lives are lies because God knows your intent. A man or woman telling you that you are a good christian is a nice thing, but there is only one opinion that counts, and he isn't mortal. Judge not, lest you be judged.

[happybrew]

Originally posted by lost_sailor:
Doesn't God know the difference between sin and the "appearance of sin" ?

And can I get a Bible reference for the "appearance of sin" avoidance? I promise to read it. <font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">I don't think it's so much the appearance of sin as such that is the problem, as one can keep a confidence justifiably and it will look like they are lying. One can stop at the scene of a crime, and tend to a wounded person, and someone may think they did it. One can defend someone from attack, and it can look like they are trying to hurt someone else. I think the problem is more one of providing a bad example, which can lead others to sin.

Matthew 18
6But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.


1 Corinthians 8
10For if anyone with a weak conscience sees you who have this knowledge eating in an idol's temple, won't he be emboldened to eat what has been sacrificed to idols? 11So this weak brother, for whom Christ died, is destroyed by your knowledge. 12When you sin against your brothers in this way and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ. 13Therefore, if what I eat causes my brother to fall into sin, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause him to fall.

Luke 17
1Jesus said to his disciples: "Things that cause people to sin are bound to come, but woe to that person through whom they come.

happybrew

[happybrew]

Originally posted by STGRule:
I believe you will be judged by your intent, not your actions. The reason I believe this is I see a bunch of "Good Christians" that will likely fail the God-Test because while they went to church, said their prayers, and put up the good front, their lives are lies because God knows your intent<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">Jesus had some choice words to say to people like that.

happybrew

[CATCH AND EAT]

Excellent scripture references Happybrew. They go right to the heart of the matter.

Talk the walk and walk the talk. Whether we like it or not people do judge one another. We are basically called to live beyond reproach. Any less than that we better be on our knees asking for forgivness. Thankfully, God listens and forgives more times than we (I) ever desearve. :cool:

[fishonksm]

Doesn't God know the difference between sin and the "appearance of sin" ?

And can I get a Bible reference for the "appearance of sin" avoidance? I promise to read it <font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">Lost_sailor to best demonstrate the act of sinning and the appearance of sin is to look at the Ten Commandments. It says “Thou shall not commit adultery” a willing act of sin. Now Jesus took this commandment one step further. He said, and I’ll paraphrase here, “If you even entertain the thought of adultery” the appearance of sin, you have committed adultery.
Every Christian needs to know that other Christians even the world is watching every move that is made. In order to promote the Christ like commitment that each of us has chosen we need to let one true God be the light to our path and the lamp unto our path.
Its when we let the god of this and that into our lives that we end up getting hurt. graemlins/hearton.gif graemlins/hearton.gif

Sin, takes you futher than you want to go,
Sin, keeps you longer than you want to stay,
Sin, costs you more than your willing to pay.

[happybrew]

Originally posted by fishonksm:Now Jesus took this commandment one step further. He said, and I’ll paraphrase here, “If you even entertain the thought of adultery” the appearance of sin, you have committed adultery.
[/QB]<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">This is correct, as someone leering at women is certainly providing a bad example and leading others into sin by that example. I do believe it's more than that, however. Even if it doesn't result in any appearances to others, it is directly sinful in and of itself. Christ did not call us to legalism, but to a relationship with Him. It's not a matter of following the "rules", not just "living" according to a set of instructions, but a way of "being". All of our thoughts, as well as our actions, should belong to Him. When our thoughts do not belong to Him, when we do not surrender even our will to God, then we are not living that relationship with Him. That's the hardest thing. Anybody can follow rules, as anybody can subordinate their actions to a fear of punishment or desire for reward. However, God is our Father. This is a relationship, and it should thus be like a relationship with a father, one not just of obedience, but of love. A child who loves his father doesn't just follow "rules", but acts to please his father, and tries to be the person his father wants him to be. So too, we must try to be the person our Heavenly Father wants us to be, not just act as we are told to act.

happybrew