Where are we?

[RvW]

Ive often wondered about a few things Ive heard, but never asked anyone to explain them to me. So I figured I would start here, maybe someone else is interested in an answer too.

Ive been told that Jesus will not be coming back until all people of the earth believe in him. Is this true according to the bible? It seems impossible to me, being that there are so many religions first of all, and so many of them do not agree that Jesus is the son of god, and the only path to gods kingdom. And then theres so many people who dont believe in anything at all.

The bible says there will be an array of religions that are imposters so to speak, that some religions are even the works of the devil. Ive heard it in catholic groups, and baptist groups, and more recently in evangelical groups, and I wonder, which one is the right one!!??

Ive been exposed to some religions where the principles make no sense to me at all. The morman church for example is one I have a hard time understanding. I used to listen to the Art Bell radio show a lot, and at one point he had guests who found the original manuscripts for the book of mormon, claiming that it was written by people who took references from the new and old testaments, omitted what they didnt like, added things to suit them, and thus created the mormon church. Is there any truth to this? How can a religion be created by a group of people who cannot be considered witneses to Jesus' presence? How can churches such as the church of scientology set minimum income guidelines for potential members?


Another thing I often wonder is how much can god tollerate before our existance is through? What I am trying to say is, at what point does god look upon his creations and write them off as a total loss? With the war and violence in the world, the pain and anguish so many people live with. The incredibly distorted priorities of so many societies it seems impossible to believe that anyone on earth recognizes everything weve been given when compared to what they DONT have.

God gave us the earth and the animals, and the tress, the water, and the sun to keep us warm and grow food to eat, and the power to reproduce so we may share all these things, but it seems like they are all being destroyed to aquire things no human "needs". Why has it become virtually impossible to live on this planet and take only what you need and be happy? In a lot of ways I wish I had never seen a television, or a computer. I grew up not far from a shaker village, where any time anyone of my family or friends drove through, laughter ensued, a threat that I was going to be dropped off there if I wasnt a "good boy". I would LOVE to be able to live as these people do! What could be better than a community of people who depend on the whole of the group to contribute to the needs of the group. A person needs a barn, the community gets together and builds a barn together, in a day! In return, the man who has a new barn offers his skills to the next family in need, say as a blacksmith, or a teacher, or a doctor?

Sometimes I think society as a whole has abandoned gods intention for us. I think the misery that exsists in the world is a direct result of selfishness plain and simple. And I feel powerless to change it. I wouldnt know how to give up the things I live with now if I were to remove myself from the ways of the world as I know it, but I would like nothing more than to go into the woods somewhere, build a home with my own hands, and grow my food, and live a simple exsistance without temptations, or all the evils that exsist in our world.

I realize I am rambling, but Id like to know how much further society is going to remove itself from a simple life with simple pleasures and a more meaningful existance than having the best job, the nicest house, the biggest SUV, the most visually appealing spouse and a bottle of viagra in the medicine chest. Is this how simple the "american dream" has become?? Ive had all this, and more ( no need for the viagra at my age) but for some reason I dont miss it as much as I used to, because I think it is so far from what god intended us to have in order to be genuinely happy.

Maybe Im going through a midlife crisis I dont know, but I could sure use some input.

[Grantspastor]

That's a bunch of questions COTR. I don't have all the answers, but I can address some. The Bible says that the Gospel of the Kingdom will go into all the world ( all people groups) and then the end will come. It does NOT say that everyone will be reconciled to God through Jesus. It still boils down to personal choice and faith in Jesus. Ultimately the wrath of God will be poured out. Those who commit their lives to Him and put their faith in Jesus will not be a part of that.

I agree that this world has got things pretty mixed up. We are a generation of consumers, and many people view their relationship with God as a means to have their problems solved and blessings accrue. I believe that God would rather we were a people that is more task oriented (the Great Commission)...and less need oriented. We all have needs, and God is gracious to help us, but what greater need could any person have than getting to know Jesus. We as Christians have been given the job to be ambassadors of Christ's love.

Romans 3:23 says "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God". This is true for Christians and non-christians. We just don't get it very often, and miss the mind of Christ. In Exodus 33 Moses asked to see the glory of God, and God described His glory as Compassion, Grace, Slow to anger, Love, Forgiveness, Faithfulness, and Mercy. Ephesians 3 says "unto Him be glory in the Church". I see a connection between His self-revelation to Moses, and the idea that the Church should be full of those same qualities. I think if it were, it would be a lot safer and more attractive place for needy people to receive the help they need.

[happybrew]

COTR: I wish I had time to give your post the time it deserves, but I won't for several days, and after that I still may not have enough time. But I can tell you that you are on the right path. The world is the same as it has always been. It is only our realization of what it is that changes.

Really quick:

1. Return of Christ: It doesn't matter when. All we need to do is to be ready all the time. There is no point in trying to figure out when.

2. Different religions: I don't want to spark controversy here. If we are baptized, we are brothers and sisters in Christ. If people are not baptized, they may still be brothers and sisters in Christ. Only God can judge others circumstances and decisions. Follow the promptings, not of yourself and your wants, but of the Holy Spirit, being careful to discern what's telling you what. Ask God for guidance. Keep asking, and don't quit. God is the God of truth. Evidence and logic are therefore important.

3. Society has abandoned God's principles for us: I would submit that "society" never really adopted them. Two great examples: ancient Israel, which God got fed up with and punished (see the later books of the Old Testament) and medieval Europe, which, despite becoming the first wholly Christian society in history, ended up with extremes of both sanctity and corruption, sparking the Protestant movement, and internal Catholic reform, like with St. Francis of Assisi. "Society" will never adopt God's principles. It is up to individuals to adopt them. "Societies" are not saved. Individual people are. Read the First Book of Macabees (you'll need a Catholic Bible, not a Protestant one, as it won't be in there) to see some of the extremes of man's inhumanity to man. Then dust off the old history books and read about burning witches, etc. Mankind has always done horrible things, and always will. That's part of free will. At the same time, mankind is also capable of enormous acts of charity, mercy, and kindness. Those just don't make very good reading.

Read your Bible, especially the Gospels. If I may, I'd also suggest books like the Summa Theologica, by Thomas Aquinas, available free online at newadvent.org. He has many wonderful insights into the human condition. It is, however, very difficult and dense reading, and it's not for everyone. In fact, it's not for very many people at all, but it's very good if you understand difficult philosophical literature. Don't try to tackle it all at once. Just pick parts that interest you. Look up the scriptural references as well. Even if you don't agree with all of his conclusions, it is very though provoking.

happybrew

[RvW]

Wow, no need at all to rush further reply happybrew, its going to take me quite some time to absorb what both you and grantspastor (what an awesome moniker!) have said already.

I just have a comment, I must commend the both of you for your efforts, I read through my post after your replies and realize some of it doesnt make sense, and some needed a bit more detail to finish my points, however, I will leave it the way it is.. Also, I am very happy that nobody here pushes a certain or specific denomination onto the other users. I think this is why many people shy away from religion as a whole, confusion about which is the right one, and which is the wrong one. I guess I answered my own question with regard to that.

Thanks again GP and HB look forward to more of your posts (in all subjects)

[happybrew]

Originally posted by cirrhosis-of-the-river:

Ive been told that Jesus will not be coming back until all people of the earth believe in him. Is this true according to the bible? It seems impossible to me, being that there are so many religions first of all, and so many of them do not agree that Jesus is the son of god, and the only path to gods kingdom. And then theres so many people who dont believe in anything at all.
<font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">Let's take a look at Matthew 24. I'm not going to quote, but paraphrase, so you may want to have it in front of you to refer to. My views on this are my own, and shared by many others, and they are certainly open for debate. I would also suggest that you look in an encyclopedia, like Brittanica or the Catholic Encyclopedia available online at Newadvent.org.

This is a difficult passage to interpret, as it was certainly a difficult thing for the Apostles to hear. Jesus is talking about an apocalyptic event. What apocalyptic event is He talking about? Is it the end of the world?

First, Jesus mentions that not one stone of the temple will be left standing. His disciples ask him when this will happen, and what will be the sign of His coming and of the end of the age.

Jesus answers these questions, but His answer doesn't give much detail to follow. He mentions that many will come saying that they are Him, and that there will be wars and rumors of war. There will be famines, earthquakes, etc. but they are not to be alarmed. Then they will be handed over to be persecuted and killed. Jesus is speaking directly to His disciples. He is telling THEM that they will suffer and be killed. Many will turn away, false prophets will appear, etc. We know that they were persecuted, and only John died a natural death, although not for want of trying on the part of the Romans, who tried to kill him and were unsuccessful. He was banished to the island of Patmos, because God miraculously preserved him when they tried to kill him. We know from Paul's letters that people did turn away, that people were led astray, that divisions in the Church developed. We know from Revelation that the love of some Churches grew cold, for which John admonishes them, just as Jesus predicted in Matthew 24. These came true during the time of the apostles.

Then Jesus said "And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. " The Apostles were scattered by the persecutions, reaching India, Ethiopia, France, Romania, possibly Britain. They went to the entire known world at that time. This is possibly a fulfillment of that prophesy, as when "world" is used in prophetic literature in the Bible, it usually means that part which was important to Israel.

Next, Jesus says " 15"So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,'[2] spoken of through the prophet Daniel--let the reader understand-- 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. "

What was the 'abomination that causes desolation'? Daniel predicted the capture of Jerusalem by Antiochus Epiphanes. It is eerie how accurate Daniel's prophesies were. It was fulfilled to the day. I won't go into the explanation of Daniel, as it is long, but suffice it to say that the abomination of desolation was the sacrifice to Zeus on the altar of the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem. If you wish to see it, I can give it to you with a little time, but it's eerie how all of the details line up. Jesus is saying that everyone should flee at this point. It will be a sacrifice on the altar in the Temple, and it will be the start of a horrible time. This was fulfilled. The Roman army destroyed Jerusalem around 70 AD, put to death over a million people, and sacrificed to Jupiter (Roman version of Zeus) on the altar in the temple. Miraculously, the Christian population escaped, led out of the city by Simon, the bishop of Jerusalem at that time. The temple was destroyed. They heeded Jesus' words, and lived.

So in Matthew 24 was not speaking about the end of the world, as many people suppose, but about the end of the age, which is what the disciples asked him about. "If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened". This shows that Jesus intended for the Christians to survive. Jesus also says that the disciples were not to believe at this point that Jesus had returned. He says that "For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man." After this, I get a bit lost. He talks about appearing in the sky, which clearly hasn't happened yet. One thing is clear, though, and that is that He makes no mention of the end of the world at this point. He talks about being ready for His coming, as no one knows the day or the hour. I don't know whether this is symbolic of each person's individual death, or if it's something that actually does pertain to the end of the world, but it doesn't appear to me to be so. Perhaps Grants Pastor can help us with this. But the first part of Matthew 24 certainly seems to be a prediction of the destruction of Jerusalem, which has been fulfilled. A lot of people take it to be the destruction of the world, but it doesn't say that it is. Because they don't have Maccabees in their Bibles, they sometimes have a faulty interpretation of Daniel, thinking that it is in Daniel's distant future, and not knowing to investigate Antiochus Epiphanes as the fulfillment. I've seen people try to apply Daniel to the Pope, but it doesn't hold water either biblically or historically. The best thing I can find in Matthew 24 is that we don't know the day or the hour, and we must always be ready. When the second half of it is being fulfilled, we'll certainly be informed of that fact! Until then, it doesn't make sense to be anxious about it. We just need to be ready all the time. If we do that, we're good to go. I hope this helps, but bear in mind that it is only my own reading of the chapter, and there is certainly room for valid disagreements with it.

happybrew

[Grantspastor]

Eschatology is very interesting to most people...but it is also a scource of honest disagreement among Bible believing people because of differences in interpetation of Bible prophecy. Matthew 24 is a very interesting chapter. Three questions are posed by the disciples, and what follows I believe are the answers to those questions. Part of Mt 24 has been fulfilled...part is being fulfilled....and part is yet future. I have looked as carefully as I know how at Bible prophecy concerning the order of events at the end of the age, and I believe that the key to sorting it all out is how you interpet Daniels 70 week prophecy. I group prophetic Scriptures into three categories;

1. Things I'm pretty sure about
2. Things I think probably I understand
3. Things that I can only speculate about

Usually when someone has sytematized an end-time view, it means taking some of those "could be" ideas and making them "for sure". I have taught these topics in Bible School, and usually qualify my teachings with the statement that it's likely we'll all have our end-time doctrine adjusted a little bit by the return of Christ. Nevertheless...it is not beyond understanding. I feel a careful study with an open mind will lead to some solid conclusions about the end-times. I also supsect that the Lord has deliberately left some things a little vague. I have always felt that it is far more important to live your life for the Lord, than to be expert on end-time doctrine. There are going to be a lot of happy people in Heaven that didn't understand end-time doctrine too well, but love Jesus with all their hearts.

Happybrew...since you have an interest in Mt 24...include the three parables in Mt 25 as part of the same discussion. They're pretty interesting in context of Jesus' answers to His disciples questions about the Temple, the end of the age, and His 2d coming.

I appreciate all you guys, and your obvious love for the Lord

[PittsburghD]

Also, I am very happy that nobody here pushes a certain or specific denomination onto the other users. I think this is why many people shy away from religion as a whole, confusion about which is the right one, and which is the wrong one. <font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">Denominations only separate our church. We are the body of Christ, period. Many folks are now starting to realize this with the rise in the non-denominational churches. It's not the snappy worship music; it is multitudes of people from different denominations coming together to follow Christ without "Man-set" guidelines to do it.

--D :tongue:

[happybrew]

Originally posted by Grantspastor:
Eschatology is very interesting to most people...but it is also a scource of honest disagreement among Bible believing people because of differences in interpetation of Bible prophecy. Matthew 24 is a very interesting chapter. Three questions are posed by the disciples, and what follows I believe are the answers to those questions. Part of Mt 24 has been fulfilled...part is being fulfilled....and part is yet future. I have looked as carefully as I know how at Bible prophecy concerning the order of events at the end of the age, and I believe that the key to sorting it all out is how you interpet Daniels 70 week prophecy. I group prophetic Scriptures into three categories;

1. Things I'm pretty sure about
2. Things I think probably I understand
3. Things that I can only speculate about

Usually when someone has sytematized an end-time view, it means taking some of those "could be" ideas and making them "for sure". I have taught these topics in Bible School, and usually qualify my teachings with the statement that it's likely we'll all have our end-time doctrine adjusted a little bit by the return of Christ. Nevertheless...it is not beyond understanding. I feel a careful study with an open mind will lead to some solid conclusions about the end-times. I also supsect that the Lord has deliberately left some things a little vague. I have always felt that it is far more important to live your life for the Lord, than to be expert on end-time doctrine. There are going to be a lot of happy people in Heaven that didn't understand end-time doctrine too well, but love Jesus with all their hearts.

Happybrew...since you have an interest in Mt 24...include the three parables in Mt 25 as part of the same discussion. They're pretty interesting in context of Jesus' answers to His disciples questions about the Temple, the end of the age, and His 2d coming.

I appreciate all you guys, and your obvious love for the Lord <font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">My view is certainly a minority view, as the vast majority of people interpret Matthew 24 as talking about the end of the world, however it is a view that was shared by a couple of the early Church Fathers, including St. John Chrysostom.

Matthew 25 is certainly informative in pointing out that we need to always be ready, especially the second parable, about the servants left with talents when their master was away. I didn't include it, however, because it doesn't refer to any signs, which seemed to be what COTR was getting at.

Escatology is a very broad subject, and includes such things as what will happen when we die, as well as what will happen at the end of the world. I haven't gone over Daniel's seventy week prophesy like I did some of his others, as it would have required me to go through Jeremiah as well, and it wasn't relevant to the discussion I was involved in when I did the research. It seemed to me from a quick look that it was making the same predictions as other sections, with the addition of prophesying the first coming of Jesus. What are your thoughts on it?

happybrew

[Kruechief]

graemlins/lurk.gif :cool: graemlins/lurk.gif :whazzup:

Loren

[Grantspastor]

Daniel's "Seventy-Week" Prophecy (Daniel 9) predicts 70 "weeks" (weeks of years) to accomplish the following:
1. Finish Transgression
2. Put an end to sin
3. Atone for wickedness
4. Bring in everlasting righteousness
5. To seal up vision and prophecy
6. To anoint the most holy

Most scholars agree this prophecy takes us from Daniel to the return of Christ...but it is interpeted in various ways. The prophecy seems to lend itself to being divided into blocks of time ... "from the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalm, (after Nebuchadnezzar's destruction) unto Messiah there will seven "sevens" and 62 "sevens". This is easily verified historically...however there are some issues to sort out. First of all there were four different "decrees" to rebuild Jerusalme...which one is the Bible referring to? These place the "coming of Messiah" variously to His birth...or to his death and resurrection...a variable of 33 1/2 years. The 70th "week is the tricky one. Most people agree that the 490 year period of time is split...that it didn't just continue to run for seven more years after Christ came. This is because of the clauses that need to yet be fulfilled..."bringing in everlasting righteousness", etc.

This is where divergent eschatological views take shape. Those who embrace a pre-tribulation rapture put the 70th week at the end of the age. Others do different things with it. My personal conviction is that 1/2 week (3 1/2 years) were fulfilled during the ministry of Christ...and the last 1/2 week will be the last 3 1/2 years before His second coming. To tell you how I arrive at that conviction is a lengthy process. The parables in Mt 25 that we have been talking about become very significant with this interpetation.

The key to eschatology is not Mt 24...I, II Thessalonians, or the Book of the Revleation. The KEY is Daniel chapter 9 and how you interpret the fulfillment of the various clauses, and the timeline given.

As a Pastor I feel STRONGLY that it is more important to love Jesus, than to be overly worried about all of this. I find it to be very interesting, but I wish it were less divisive. The church could get a lot done if we all just embraced Ephesians 4 and made "every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace"

One of the best books I've ever read on Daniel Chapter nine is by a man named Kevin Conner. I'm not sure how you could get a copy, but possibly could through Portland City Bible Church. The Pastor there is married to Kevin's daughter.

[happybrew]

I also feel that it is more important to love Jesus than get all wrapped up in the whens and wheres. All we really need to do is be ready by loving God. It is an interesting exercise, though, to look it all up. Furthermore, things get complicated if one looks at Antiochus Epiphanes as a 'type' of the anti-Christ who is yet to come. Then it all fits, but there may be something else that fits as well.

Antiochus Epiphanes would fit into seventy-weeks of years if one places the beginning at the first destruction of the Temple, with the three and a half year desecration of the Temple under Antiochus. It doesn't fit as precisely, though, as with Antiochus fulfilling the other prophesies in Daniel, and there are a few problems with that view, but if you view the 70 weeks of years as an approximation, it works very well. However, many things in the Old Testament were 'types' of things yet to come, so it is possible that it could be fulfilled all over again in a different way. All prophesy should, however, point toward Jesus, and Daniel certainly makes clear the struggle that Satan makes to wipe out the saints, echoed again in Revelation.

There were so many differences of opinion, even in the early centuries of the Church regarding the interpretation of prophesies, that I don't think I'll ever sort it out, nor do I think it's necessary that anyone does sort it out. Just doing all of the reading to try to sort it out gives one an enormous sense of the obstacles that people faced trying to follow God. If it wasn't outside persecution, it was one's own neighbors collaborating with it, abandoning God, and taking others with them. I think that it's a timeless story, that repeats itself over and over again at all times and in all places. In the end, each of us faces a struggle with the outside world that is hostile to faith, and each of us faces an internal struggle. All of the persecutions involved an external and an internal factor, in both the Old and New Testaments. While the problems are greater or lesser, depending upon when and where one is, they end up being of the same type, and I think that this is the value in taking the time to study it and struggle with its meaning.

May God Bless You!

happybrew

[Critr Gitr]

All good posts but what I've boiled it down to is a simple issue. It is one of relationship .... seek out a daily personal relationship with Jesus Christ ... and all your questions become secondary.

[happybrew]

Absolutely!

happybrew

[Kruechief]

Aw come on guys, nothing is that easy...

You mean ask and you shall be forgiven?

Seek and you will find.

Hmmm...

Just turn it over to God and let him handle it...

:wink: :smile:

Loren

[happybrew]

Originally posted by Kruechief:
Aw come on guys, nothing is that easy...

You mean ask and you shall be forgiven.


:wink: :smile:

Loren <font size="2" face="verdana,arial,helv">Well, okay, it's not that easy. You have to be sorry, too. :wink:

happybrew

[Grantspastor]

Yep...that's it!

[Neptune]

I Belive in faith, plan and simple as that!
Faith is what i've been told by my family
and Faith is what I see in them.

God, Bless

[PittsburghD]

I love this verse. Matthew 7:7-11. Jesus is trying to get through our thick skulls one small point, but it takes at least six times for him to feel like maybe we are getting the point.

"Ask and it will be given to you;
Seek and you will find;
Knock and the door will be opened to you.
For everyone who asks receives;
he who seeks finds;
and to him who knocks,the door will be
opened."

He even said the knock thing again just a little differently thinking we might get it then.

It can be summed up in a verb..........


PRAY.


------D

[Full Freezer]

The very fact that God's gift of salvation is freely given to anyone and easy to understand make it a stumbling block for many who think it must be harder or something else must be involved. I still have friends i pray for who still beleive they can't be forgiven by god for what they have done. Satan is such a stinkin' liar & deciever I hate him.

Full Freezer

[RvW]

Im still reading and interested in the replies to my uhh, not stupid, but silly and confusing questions.

I guess faith is still confusing for me to completely understand. I wish I felt jesus was as close to me as I am to him, but to ask for "proof" defies faith doesnt it?

It seems theres so many concepts and interpretations that are easily confusing, or all lead back to the simple, somewhat evasive answer..."you just gotta believe"

If the bible is our book of lifes instructions, why is it so impossible to stay within the guidelines?

I admit, I want to believe more than I do believe. Theres so many questions with so few answers, Id like to be able to find a few answers without even asking. I want to be successful at my attempts at faith, to be a model of what it is to "believe", is there glory in anything less? Im so far from it ..its frightening.

Maybe what I was trying to ask, or say in my initial post is..."wait for me jesus, I'll catch up, I'm just on the wrong road and have too many maps!"

Its tough when theres no "big red X" on any of them.

[ 07-25-2003, 06:36 AM: Message edited by: cirrhosis-of-the-river ]