Let's suppose...

[feisty]

that a'Loving Gawd", created humanity as most Christian's beleive, and that the Creation story is true[I beleive it to be a myth]...if it is all true, and Gawd created it all, with the fore-knowledge that the ole devil would mess up the whole ball of wax, then He is guilty of setting us up for failure from the beginning. Think about it...if you have children, and you want them to succeed in life, as all parent's do, you would not give them a nature that is already set up for failure. If the creation story is true, then billion's of people are burning in hell cause Gawd sent them there, for being incapable of perfection...the only thing that make's sence to me is re-incarnation, perfecting our nature thru countless incarnation's, life lesson's of godliness being perfected in our nature thru experiance, karma work's. I am not being as coherant/clear as I would like to be, I am waiting for the next death...Gawd only know's who will be next...maybe me...I only hope I go out feeling good, no pain. I am not trolling, I do not expect understanding. :bricks: :bricks: :bricks:*******

[Snapset]

Well, I believe that God created a universe that would nurture us, challenge us, teach us to rely on faith in Him, and ultimately kill each and every one of us. In the end, I think God wants us to be more like him. He created us, His children with our own free will to approach the problems that arise with whatever approach we choose. Satan is one of His children and used his free will in direct opposition to God's Plan. Jesus Christ aligned his will with that of God the Father, providing us a means to conquer death and sin. I don't see the failure there. I accept the Creation story figuratively, because I don't believe the Bible tells the whole story about everything. As far as Re-incarnation goes, I don't believe in it, but I have seen no evidence to dis-prove it so I am not going to argue against it.
This I believe.

[feisty]

I understand your viewpoint, and respect it, I guess to me, the only thing that make's any sence is re-incarnation, and not nessesarily[sp] on this world, therre are many other's. Have a good week-end...that make's sence too:):):)

[jokester]

If the creation story is true, then billion's of people are burning in hell cause Gawd sent them there, for being incapable of perfection...



Well, to start off...no one is perfect, or will ever be perfect, except for God himself! The bible says we all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. Ever since Adam and Eve ate of the tree that God forbid them to, there has been sin in the world, and because of their disobedience, we are born into sin. That tells me right there that no one can be perfect. It's not about anyone being perfect, it's striving to become more like him, trying to do his will, and follow him. Will we stumble and mess up...of course...we're not perfect. But fortunately, we have a merciful God that loves us and will forgive us when we fail him.

God did not set us up to fail. He did not send those people to hell. He gives us a choice everyday to do the right thing, or the wrong thing. It's totally up to us. God has provided us a way to be with him forever in Heaven one day by giving the ultimate sacrifice...sending his son to die on the cross for our sins. It's our choice to choose him, or to choose the way of the world.

You talked about setting your children up for failure. Of course you wouldn't do that...and neither has God. You raise your children and teach them the way you want them to go. Eventually, they will have to make decisions on their own regarding drugs, alcohol, etc. Just as we teach our children the way we want them to go, God also has taught us his ways. Eventually, as a child of God, you're going to have to make decisions for yourself...to follow Christ, or to go your own way.

Hope this helps a little :angel:

-jokester

[feisty]

I was raised in what I think of as Churchianity, I know only one authentic Christian, he goes by Natetester here, but I sure know all the Christian theology, I do not buy it, especially after this summer. Have a good night, week-end, all. Tite Line's, be safe, move if you hear a ship blow that whistle, no fish is worth getting hurt over.

[jokester]

I do not buy it, especially after this summer.



Care to elaborate? :shrug:

-jokester

[rimrock]

It’s a fair question…the truth is I don’t know. I don’t know why God in His wisdom created a world with the potential for evil that man actualized. We didn’t need this choice in Eden for humanity to love God, since in the new creation restored there will be no potential for evil and we will love God perfectly. So why create this potential to begin with? We can truly love without the presence of evil and in truth the commonly acclaimed “choice” idea just doesn’t hold up. Choice isn’t a prerequisite for love. God is perfect love He never makes a different choice and further is even incapable of making any other choice but love, so choice isn’t the issue. So why did God created the potential for evil? WHY???!!!!

Evil is real it causes all kinds of sadness and brokenness. It wasn’t from God but God did create a world where evil could be realized. It simply is beyond me to understand, and even if God tried to explain it to me it would be like explaining the principles of String Theory to a 1-year old child. It would be pointless and further God doesn’t owe me an answer.

You know of all the questions that are answered in the Bible; only one is consistently never answered and that is, Why? God never answers the why question. That’s just the truth plain and simple. Job asked God why and God did agree to answer Job’s question, BUT Job first needed to answer God’s “basic” questions first to demonstrate Job would be able to grasp Divinity 101. Questions like, “Where were you when I set the earth on its foundations?” Well that’s a tuffy.

Someday the whys will be answered for those who in spite of why trust God to be faithful and I know it will be shown to be the perfect plan. On this side of heaven there isn’t an answer provided for why. But if you can look beyond why, ya never know what you might “see”.

[eddie haskel]

How ya doing feisty my friend????

Love eh.....is that the question?

Man has a hard, very hard time, really understanding true love. Most are willing to give it (theorectically anyway) but with "expectations". That is why it fails us, and then confuses us. It has to be free. I think the hippies were on to something, but it soon turned sexual, and muddled in a drugged mindset, and any hope in understanding it was lost.

You talk of a nature in children and equate it with those that fail. So, I guess you are saying we should enable our children by giving or providing all their needs for them, then how will they ever learn the nature of self-worth?
The real key to unlocking all their is to understand about themself?

God did not give us a failing nature, but a "free will". We are the only creation on Earth that has that capacity. To choose. We might not like our choices, but nevertheless, we always have a choice.

Life is all about attitude. A successful life is one that lives in the moment, for that is all we have. Choose to be happy, or choose to be bitter, angry, fearful. It really is no more complicated than that. Which ever one you choose, you'll find....

Hope your getting to find some fish feisty! :wave:

[Witchway]

HUMAN'S ARE PROGRAMED TO SUCCEED,FROME BIRTH! oUR DOWNFALL is what is programed into us.

[feisty]

Hi, Jokester...I know many other's here have some REALLY hard time's they are going thru, Jennie come's to mind[Lord love you, Nice Lady:):):)], My father died reallyun-expectedly on July8, then my family began to fall apart[bros, sister], then I got the word three week's later that my younger bro had died in Detox down in Medford, my last vacation I spent in Coos Bat, spreading his ashes...he was a practicing alchoholic all his life, never had much of anything.I DO NOT question the existance of God, He is real, He is Wonderful, he does speak today, I simply cannot accfe3pt that Christianity has it all right, but the rest of the world is totally wrong. Ya"ll have a fine day, you know why I am up early, after getting three hr's of sleep....here. fishy fishy fishy.:):):) Hi, Eddie, Rimrock, hope all is well with ya"ll.

[Dullhook]

Intelligent human beings have questions about everything and want answers that make sense. This is a gift that God gave us over lower animals.

Just a suggestion feisty:

Buzz down to the local library and check out a copy of "The Purpose Driven Life" by Rick Warren. Ever wonder; Why am I here, who is God, and why did He create me? This book does a pretty good job of explaining these questions in a straight-forward, logical manner. :twocents:

Peace Dh. :flowered:

[Grantspastor]

For the one who asked about Feisty's summer...suffice it to say he's been through it. Fiesty, I'm still praying for you if that's o.k.? I don't want to launch into a defense of Christianity, cause I know you've heard it before. Obviously my view is different than yours, but I appreciate your candor and choosing not to be argumentative with others who in the past have gotten a little defensive. If you ever get down this way I'd like to take you fly fishing for Steelhead in my old Drift boat. If you want to talk about this stuff, we could do it and have a little fun too.

[FireCat]

I will say this Feisty..here is why we as Christian live by faith and not by sight why? Because it has been said that Many supposed... Bible experts, are folks who know a great deal about very,very little and will go along learning more and more about less and less until they know practically everything about nothing. :help:
clear as mud huh?....Lord Bless

[jokester]

If you ever get down this way I'd like to take you fly fishing for Steelhead in my old Drift boat. If you want to talk about this stuff, we could do it and have a little fun too.



:applause: :applause: That offer stands for me too, Feisty! I'd be glad to have you accompany me in my DB for some winter steelhead coming up!


Obviously my view is different than yours, but I appreciate your candor and choosing not to be argumentative with others who in the past have gotten a little defensive.



I do remember your incidents of this past summer now :depressed: I am still praying for you also! Just like GP said, my view may be different than yours, but I too appreciate your attitude towards this question. I'll be the first to admit...I was one of those who got defensive with you from your questions in the past. To that, i'm truely sorry :flowered: I guess it's just human nature to jump on the defense when someone differs from your opinion. But please, forgive me for doing so.

The truth of it is, we're all here on this earth for a purpose. What that purpose is...we have to find out ourselves. We'll never know it all till we get to Heaven.

-jokester

[Bartman]

...the only thing that make's sence to me is re-incarnation, perfecting our nature thru countless incarnation's, life lesson's of godliness being perfected in our nature thru experiance



feisty,
for me, your pretty much right on the money,many in my faith have a belief that not only are we reincarnated, but that many are reincarnated back into their family line.
there are MANY spirtual walks out there, if a spiritual walk is important too you, keep praying, keep looking, and the Gods will take you where YOU need to be, not where some MAN tells you where you Have to be.
May the Gods bless you my friend!!
Bart

[Bartman]

PM sent feisty

[fishonksm]

Yes feisty let's do suppose that creation happened as you say. God creates man, salvation and sin. he then puts out two plates to choose from, 1 of salvation and eternal life, the other 1 of sin and eternal damnation, but in his creation he gives a "free will" to willing choose form any plate he wants, to live the life he wants and to take the consequences of that choice.
In making the choice of the plates it’s the man who chooses life or death, heaven or hell, not God. He left the choice of the plates up to his creation.
You see Christ came, died, and was resurrected ONCE For ALL nothing else needs to be done.
As you see it reincarnation lets you relive your life over and over again till you get it right, kind of like the movie ground hog day.

[Bartman]

You see Christ came, died, and was resurrected ONCE For ALL nothing else needs to be done.
As you see it reincarnation lets you relive your life over and over again till you get it right, kind of like the movie ground hog day.


biting my tongue!! biting my tongue!!
Didnt work!!
OK!!! someone has shared their belief, which is contrary to yours!!
better tell him he's going to suffer FOREVER!!!
and what the heck!!! might as well make a little fun of his belief while your at it!! :sick:
Bart

[in 'em]

Now Now...let's be nice...

feisty...God did not set us up for failure, he simply desired to receive true love from his creation, therefore giving us the freedom to choose Him or not. People often forget how real Satan is and tend to blame everything on "Gawd" instead of man's sinful choices caused from Satan's influence in this world.

You used the children illustration...We all have kids for different reasons, but under the right circumstances, we love our children, want the best for them and desire nothing but their true love and respect in return... however, we all know that our kids are going to bonk their head, get hurt, get stung by a bee, break a bone, bite their toungue, live and eventually grow old and die...does this mean then that we shall not have kids because we know they are going to go through some pain and suffering and someday die? If your children touch the hot stove or trip and fall was it your fault? Would they learn and grow if you they were your "puppets on a string" and you controlled their every thought and motion? Could they show you true love, what every parent desires from their child, if they had no choice?

Perhaps God brought us into this sinful world in hopes of us choosing to live for Him that we may be with him for eternity...the same way in which we can bring our own children into this world, raising them to love the Lord and choosing Him so that we may be with our children forever in eternity as well...

We all seek the Truth, do we turn to the lies of this world, humans, Satan, or do we seek God and His innerrant Word supporting a biblical worldview? I'm not saying God's children won't fall or sin, but do we make up rules and beliefs to cater to our desires and needs, or look to God and His Son to forgive us?

I heard an interesting view of creation and the introduction of evil into this world the other day...I'll post it here tomorrow...I want to make sure I remember it correctly...

[in 'em]

How many of you have heard of "The Truth Project"? It is an unbelievable new study that will change lives...if it sounds interesting, pleeeaasse go to thetruthproject.org and check it out.

There are so many beliefs, views, religions, denominations, etc. battling for our attention and devotion...however, the "Truth" is what we all seek.

The single most important question every human asks is, "What is Truth?" How did we get here, why are we here, and where do we go when we die?

Do you really believe that what you believe is really real? This is a bit of a toungue twister, but an incredibly deep and honest question.

[Bartman]

You used the children illustration...We all have kids for different reasons, but under the right circumstances, we love our children, want the best for them and desire nothing but their true love and respect in return... however, we all know that our kids are going to bonk their head, get hurt, get stung by a bee, break a bone, bite their toungue, live and eventually grow old and die...does this mean then that we shall not have kids because we know they are going to go through some pain and suffering and someday die? If your children touch the hot stove or trip and fall was it your fault? Would they learn and grow if you they were your "puppets on a string" and you controlled their every thought and motion? Could they show you true love, what every parent desires from their child, if they had no choice?





in'em
do we have children for the sole purpose of worshiping us?? and if we did, and they didnt do it right then would you condemn them to eternal punishment?? I think not.
why is it so hard for so many people, to realize that there are other "true" paths out there. even in your own bible, which so many of you consider the infaluable word of God, there is scripture testifying to that fact.

"you will have no Gods before me"
the jewish god, telling his tribe, that they were not suppose to put any god before him. not that there arent other gods, just that he's a jealous god, and if your one of his then you better keep it that way.
"King Solomon"
king solomon got in trouble with his god, for sacrificing to the god of one of his wifes,sacrificing to ANOTHER GOD.
"Plural use"
multiple places in the bible, have jehova using we and us, when talking about the divine, other gods?? or just multiple personalities??
:twocents:
Bart