question?

[FireCat]

Why does the church say God did not create evil, when he himself claims that
he did in Isaiah 45:7, Lamentations 3:38, and Amos 3:6?15

What say ye bros and sista,s

[eddie haskel]

Could you please post the context (in total) of those passages?
Thanks!

[Dullhook]

Great question FireCat. :flowered:

I guess the first question in reply would be...What church has said this?

If a Christian church is "Biblically based" there is no contradiction here. There are countless instances cited throughout the Bible where our Creator has intervened on behalf of His beloved children to stamp out transgressions of His laws. Often it took disasters and rebounding force to extinguish the evil that one man has set upon another.

In each of the scriptures you have cited, God through His love and protection has punished those who blatantly disregarded His word and warnings and in fact blasphemed His holiness and deity. Lets take Amos 3:6 for an example.

"When a trumpet sounds in a city do not the people tremble? When a disaster comes to a city, has not the Lord caused it."

Yeah, they sure enough better and yes He did! If we go a little farther in Amos 3:14 we find out the reason.

" On the day I punish Israel 'for her sins', I will destroy the altars of Bethel; the horns of the altar will be cut off and fall to the ground. I will tear down the winter house along with the summer house; the houses adorned with ivory will be destroyed and the mansions will be demolished."Why? ....Israel had turned her back on God. :depressed:

God being all powerful and all loving does what is necessary to discipline His children for their own good. If this is manifested in disasters or counter-evil...so be it. "I am the Lord thy God, thou shalt not place false gods before Me."

Much of the worlds suffering is caused by rulership of tyrants that defy God's will. At times He has removed wicked men from power (Daniel 2:21) when He humbled and removed Nebuchadnezzar, the "mighty" king of Babylon. He had put himself (much like Satan who influenced him) above God and payed the price.

We know that God is love, but being our Father can and will pitch back our own evil against us if this is the only way to get our attention. :angel:

[FireCat]

I am asking this for one reason only, and that is because, myself being a midweek fellowship leader you get ask all kinds of questions pertaining to God, Jesus and the Bible and you are walking on shakey ground if you have a answer for everything.

Now Dullhook you gave avery good point when you said "READ A LITTLE FUTHER" this is where most bad Bible interpetation gets started, is reading out of context. We must always read a little futher or match thought for thought not just singelize out one meaning and make it "thus say,s the Lord"

Now we had a good 3 week study on this "Did God Create evil" And what a great 3 weeks it was the consences was that:
Many times someone will say, "Did God make everything that exist ?"

the trap comes when we say "Yes He did!"

then many will say , "If God made everything, then He must of made evil."

so if we dont have a answer the Christian faith could be shown shown to be a myth.

But what we should say is "is there such thing as cold?"

"Of course there is, They will have to agree "Haven't we ever been cold"

But in all "Actually, cold doesn't exist." What we would call to be cold, is really an absence of heat. Freezing or zero is when there is absolutely no heat, but cold does not really exist. We have only created that word or term to describe how we feel when heat is not there."

Now let me ask you this "is there such a thing as dark?"

The logical answer is"Of course there is."

But you know what? "darkness does not exist."
Darkness is really only when there is no "light". Darkness is only a term
that we have developed to describe to what happens when there is no light present."

Ok now then lets ask our topic question again "is there such thing as evil?"

Sure, many would say, "We have rapes, and murders and
violence everywhere in on this planet, those things are all evil."

But in what CONTEX of scripture talls us is "Actually, evil does not exist., only when there is no presence of God, Evil is very simply the absence of God. Evil is a term we sinners developed to describe the
absence of God. God DID NOT create evil. This term isn't like TRUTH, or LOVE, which exist as BLESSED virtues like heat or light. Evil is very simply the state where God is not present, like cold without heat or darkness without light."

I could go on with this but, I think you get my point.
I can tell in my heart when light is not there, and when it is...Lord Bless

[rimrock]

Oh yes, the issue regarding the Christian explanation of the presence of evil. Most human arguments bent on “protecting” God pretty much fall into one of three categories:

1. Free Will Theodicy: Suffering exists because of our free will.

2. Experience Theodicy: Suffering exists because we need to experience or have knowledge of it.

3. Absence Theodicy: Evil is simply the Absence of God/Good.

Only problem is none of these truly explain the issue regarding God and the presence of evil in the world.

[FireCat]

Rimrock...How ya doin long time no type, our consenses was we were not trying to explain God and the exsistance of evil, for to do that would be like trying to nail Jello on a tree,...we had a fella that was just out of prison and he was wanting truth, it led into quite a emotional
evening he was seeking truth and he said he felt like everything around him was "darkness" so we were showing him the true meaning of Gods light.

It wasnt the time for theoligical explanation of theodicy, He just wanted peace and Light, for the crime he commited cost him his family.
And we as a group was just trying to patch up the broken pieces.

[rimrock]

Then brother, I would say you made a wonderful decision in ministering to your new friend. He being new to the faith the issue of God and the presence of evil would have most likely been a confusing block to him. Showing him the peace given by God only found by faith in Christ truly is of greatest importance. Pastoring is all about patience and feeding the spiritual food that can be understood at that time; it’s a marathon. Even a human child doesn’t grow-up physically overnight. Well done!!!

[dukespoint]

Trying to define evil is like trying to imagine what hell is like - the total absence of God. Imagine every sensation that He created for us and then not being able to experience that. No wonder there is "nashing of teeth".

[happybrew]

6 so that from the rising of the sun
to the place of its setting
men may know there is none besides me.
I am the LORD, and there is no other.

7 I form the light and create darkness,
I bring prosperity and create disaster;
I, the LORD, do all these things.

8 "You heavens above, rain down righteousness;
let the clouds shower it down.
Let the earth open wide,
let salvation spring up,
let righteousness grow with it;
I, the LORD, have created it.

Isaiah 45





The context does not say that God creates evil, but that God has created consequences for evil so that that we know He is God.


33 For he does not willingly bring affliction
or grief to the children of men.

34 To crush underfoot
all prisoners in the land,

35 to deny a man his rights
before the Most High,

36 to deprive a man of justice—
would not the Lord see such things?

37 Who can speak and have it happen
if the Lord has not decreed it?

38 Is it not from the mouth of the Most High
that both calamities and good things come?

39 Why should any living man complain
when punished for his sins?





Same thing. God has created a world with consequences for sin. God did not create sin. God created free will which allows for sin and evil.


5 Does a bird fall into a trap on the ground
where no snare has been set?
Does a trap spring up from the earth
when there is nothing to catch?

6 When a trumpet sounds in a city,
do not the people tremble?
When disaster comes to a city,
has not the LORD caused it?

7 Surely the Sovereign LORD does nothing
without revealing his plan
to his servants the prophets.





Again, this suggests that God has created a world with consequences for sin. God created the consequences. God did not create the sin.

But this is to miss the main point. God did not create free will to create sin. God created free will to create Love, for there can be no Love without free will. God allows evil to exist so that a greater good may come out of it. Through free will, we have the ability to love, which is the fulfillment of the law, as well as to sin, which is the violation of the law. See Paul's epistles and the Sermon on the Mount.

Even more importantly, without our capacity to love and to sin, God would not have had to send His Son to die for our sins. God foresaw that we would sin. God knew from the beginning that the Word would need to be made flesh and dwell among us. God knew that unless we eat His flesh and drink His blood, we have no life within us. He invites us to do so. He does not force us. Thus, many leave Him. (see John 6:66) Many stay. But God, who is Love, could only make the one choice offered by free will, which is to love. So God offered himself. But God, who is Love, cannot do other than love, so God did not create evil, but separates it from Love through calamity and death, so that Love may be pure and unpolluted. God does not accept a tainted sacrifice, but a pure one. (see the first chapter of Malachi) This is because Love must be pure to be Love. If you bring a tainted love to your spouse, your spouse will rightly reject your love and you. You cannot say to your spouse "I love you, but I also love those three over there." Thus, God compares Israel to an unfaithful spouse in Jeremiah and other places in the Old Testament. But because our love is rarely pure, we can hang on to the Love of Christ and offer that to God as a sacrifice for our sins, and that will be the pure offering that we cannot ourselves make.

happybrew

[rimrock]

I think you’re heading down a good road from what I see in Scripture as well. God certainly did not create evil; that brings in a whole host of problems and conflicts with many different parts of Scripture. BUT God certainly did create the potential for evil.

God set the stage in the garden as it were. God created the potential for evil by creating a situation where Adam had a choice. If he ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, than the powers of sin and death would invade the world. This was God’s doing, God’s arrangement; not the creation of evil but by creating the situation/potential where if humanity disobeyed evil would be known and manifested in the whole of creation.

If God never created this potential for evil we would have never known evil as Adam wouldn’t have had a choice where he could have disobeyed, but apparently allowing the choice is a greater good than not having one to begin with. I cannot truly grasp that truth, nor fully comprehend it; I’ll just trust God’s wisdom will be shown to be again perfect in the matter of creating the potential for evil.

[in 'em]

I haven't read this all yet, but wanted to throw out this thought before I have to go...I see God as not the creator of evil, but the giver of free will. Without free will, there would be no evil, without evil/free will, there would be no way show true love to our creator because their would be no choice to make....between good and evil, God and evil, etc. God may have seen it, allowed it, created the freedom to do it, but did not himself choose evil or like to see evil. Just wanted to throw that out...I'll read more later.

[in 'em]

rimrock-
excellent words of wisdom once again!