Kill all Smallmouth in rivers supporting anadromous fisheries!!!!!!!!

[WildHawg]

I'll bet that got your attention. No, I'm not kidding. Despite the cash motivated rhetoric of the ODFW (their #1 concern is license sales), smallmouth do eat a hell of alot of smolt in pre-spawn, as well as on their reds, which happens to correspond to the migration patterns of smolt (April, May and early June).

As a guide on the Umpqua, I have witnessed first hand, Smallmouth pushing smolt out of the water like Chinook feeding on Herring balls on many occasions. I have even witnessed Smallmouths push smolts onto the shore on two occasions while anchored up fishing Shad.

While I am not a Fisheries Biologist, I am a student of the wilds and BY GOD it doesn't take a Brain Sturgeon to dissect a fat hen Smalley in the spring and ID what she has been eating. In April, May and early June, it's smolt! ODFW states that they have little evidence of this smolt predation, saying they have had little luck catching Smalleys in their trips that time of year (spring). Interestingly, Smalleys do not bite well in the Spring--unless you happen to be fishing with a Rainbow Rapala, which just happens to resemble a SteelHead, Chinook, or Silver smolt. When I offered to take them in May, not once, but several years in a row, they said they would get back to me. Seems they don't want to know the truth.

Several years ago, I was told that the majority of their diet was shad juvenilles, dace, chub, sculpin, and crawdads. Of course they do their tests of diet when the water is warm and the smolt have by and large moved into the estuary. How convenient. It is my theory Their is a vested interest to support these non native fisheries, it's called survival. For the many employees of the ODFW whose livelihhod depends on licence revenue, there is a great deal of pressure to encourage a fishery that is "people friendly", ie. it's warm, and anyone can catch fish=license revenues. As a native Oregonian, and a person who wouldn't trade a 9 lb. Smalley for a single Jack Salmon, I find this ODFW sellout of our anadromous fisheries to the benefit of illegally planted Smalleys to be an abomination. Although they acknowledge that they were illegally introduced, they establish limits on their retention by anglers!! Whats wrong with this picture people? Every year, another selfish warmwater fisherman decides in his ultimate wisdom to illegally play God and introduce Bass or some other non native predator into our rivers and lakes (see Walleye/Smalleys in the Columbia, or Bass in most of the finest trout lakes in Eastern Oregon)and compromise the futures of our heritage as Oregonians. Listen up people...as fun as these species are to catch, they are slowly descimating our anadromous native and hatchery runs. It's time to take a stand. Ya'all want to be the Texas of the Northwest, or the proud inhabitants of what was once (and I pray has the opportunity again be) the home of the greatest anadromous fishery in the world. If you don't believe me--read your history books! It's the truth. It's not just the dams, loss of habitat, or seals that are slowly killing our runs, it's selfish S.O.B.'s who care about nothing but themselves, their revenue sources, and their individual choices concerning what should be the dominant gamefish in Oregon that will kill anadromous fisheries in Oregon. Kill 'em all (non native fish, of course), and let God sort em out.

[This message has been edited by WildHawg (edited 12-15-2000).]

[rob allen]

Its funny that the two major river systems that have smallmouth the Umpqua and the John day are two of the healthiest steelhead streams in the state.
I'm not saying smallmouth dont eat smolts but the evidence that they eat lots of smolts or that they are a major cause of decline or a hinderence to recovery doesn't exsist. In fact its been demonstrated that sqawfish are a large part of the diet especially in the umpqua. And we all know that sqawfish are much mor voratious than smallies. So one could easily make the statement that smallies actually contribute to salmonid survival.

As for the notion that ODFW is somehoe conspiring to keep smallmouth populations high, well thats just in my opinion outrageous.

[WildHawg]

Rob--Silver Salmon and Sea run Cutthroat are the last fish to outmigrate in the spring/early summer, and I believe are the most vulnerable. I realize that these fish are down in most rivers, but as I stated in my post I am not willing to trade ANY anadromous fish for some predatory transplant.

Now, if you don't believe ODFW has a vested interest in supporting these fish, tell me--why is there a limt on these illegally introduced finned locusts?? To use your words: "Well thats just in my opinion outrageous." It's called $$$$$ Rob. Many people who aren't willing to spend days trying to catch a Steely or a Salmon are willing to fork over the $$$ to buy a license to catch a pile of bass. I have made a small fortune fishing clients for these fish and am crapping in my own nest by saying this--but I have two eyes to see, and a conscience that tells me it isn't right.

I am an Oregonian first (bet you're not) and a fisherman second. Yeah, I have noticed a major decline in the #'s of Squawfish in the Umpqua. I have also noticed a HUGE drop in the number of Crawdads. Not being a biologist, it's hard to quantify the impact of this. But what I do know is Squawfish and Crawdads are native to our streams, and I would guess that in their own way an important part of the ecosystem. Correct me if I am wrong, but Squawfish and Salmon, Steelhead, and Trout, have coexisted for thousands of years until man screwed up their habitat. Now in our ultimate wisdom, we have introduced another predator to the list and are protecting it, while we pay two bucks a fish to people who bring squawfish to the checkstation. Sounds like good biology to me.

Yes we do have unnaturally high poulations of Squawfish that need to be caught and killed lurking below the dams waiting to ambush helpless nitrogen intoxicated smolts as they migrate their way down the Columbia. We also have rivers like the John Day and the Umpqua where predatory fish inhabit every mile of the lower rivers by the thousands, and are in fact protected by catch limits despite the fact they were illegally introduced. You're either for Salmon/Steelhead/Trout, or you're against them Rob. Their is no meeting in the middle ********. Pick a side and get ready to rumble, cause the axe is about to fall. I am sick and tired of the pissant Bassmasters planting their alien spawn in Oregons waters. We don't need Smalleys and Walleyes to dominate our once great fisheries.

[backlash]

AMEN BROTHER. Even a blind man can see the stand ODFW is taking on this fishery. I could not agree with you more, it's just sad that there is little that Joe fisherman can do about this. Where do we start?

[rob allen]

The science is clear that the major cause of decline of both Umpqua coho and cutthroat is poor timber harvest. Living in the Umpqua area i am sure you know some timber workers. If you are for salmon you muct be against logging practices that have impacts on fish. I am sure you also never use roe or sandshrimp cause as we know that hookimg mortality goe up with the use of both barbed hooks and bait. I am sure you make sure you dont catch any out migrating smolts which have a very high motality when hooked.
My point is that its impossible to get rid of these smallmouth. Thet are hear to stay like it or not. Sure killing some may help a tiny little bit.
Do i wish that they were not there? of course. What i am saying is that there are greater concerns than smallmouth especially on a river where the harvest of wild steelhead is allowed and where timber harvest continues to threaten the rivers fish.

[WildHawg]

Rob, I think we agree in essence that Smalleys are not a healthy addition to our rivers. You seem to think that I am under the impression that Smalleys can be eradicated--nothing could be farther from the truth. Sadly, these fish are here to stay. My point is that the official policy of the ODFW should not be to "manage" these critters; rather they should label them for what they are: very efficient predators, and remove any restrictions on the method of taking them (short of nets or something that could harm salmonids and trout).


Hmmmm...lets see, we remove the limits on Brook Trout in lakes where they compete with native Cutthroat and 'bows, we pay two bucks a pop for Squawfish, and yet we have a limit of 10 Smallmouth (up from five a few years ago) on the Umpqua and John Day Smalleys??? Now that makes alot of sense. Don't suppose it's because ODFW realizes that there is a percentage of people out there who love 'em despite the damage they do? Hard to imagine they would support a fishery that is self sustaining (no hatcheries necessary)and brings people from all over the U.S. to fish in Oregon? I must just be naive to think they support and manage Smalleys despite the fact they compete with and kill thousands of smolt each year. Sheesh, how could I be so stupid!!!!

Now, as to your comments about loggers--it's not ALL their fault. For many years the ODFW forced loggers to remove every twig of debris from the streams whose banks they had logged. This cost many thousands of dollars and was not the choice of the loggers, rather a management mandate by ODFW. They reasoned that there should be no impediments to upstream migration. 15 years later, they are forcing them to place large logs and other debris BACK into those same streams which are now scoured down to bedrock thanks to the wisdon of ODFW, not the loggers. Cynical me. The ODFW knows exactly what it's doing and I should just roll over and take it up the backside while they **** away what little is left with their pseudoscience. The real answer is we don't have the answers--and to play God by by managing non native fish because they "don't eat that many smolt" is to play with fire.

2 questions for you: 1)Now that the squawfish on the main Umpqua are nearly extinct, what do the Smalleys eat? 2)Is it legal to retain wild Steelhead on the Umpqua River?

[rob allen]

You raise some valid points. i have a couple questions. Has the harvest of smallmouth increased since the limit was doubled? Has the smallmouth population decreased? My guess would be no. In that case what point would there be in changing the regs again?

3 years ago i spent 9 months working in the rosegurg area and at that time it was legal to keep wild steelhead. I attended a meeting of the wdfw where there was public imput on proposed regulations. The local bait fishermen very strongly opposed any curtailment of their wild fish harvest. As far as i know the wild kill regs are still in effect. has that changed?

[onstep]

They changed the regs in 1998. I've been witness to smallies spitting smolt into the net we had caught them in multiple times. I agree with WildHawg on this one we need to provide no limit on these introduced fish. The Umpqua hasn't fished the same since the mid eighties.

[Hoosier Daddy]

FYI guys. ODFW screws up just like everyone, but there are some facts here I think you all missed.
ODFW biologists tried to remove and/or increase limits on smallmouth in the Columbia a few years back just because of this issue. Their plan was shot down by Bass clubs. In addition, ODFW is only responsible for making recommendations on regulations. The actual authority to make them comes from the Fish and Wildlife Commission, not ODFW biologists. In addition, how many people do you know that only buy licenses to fish for smallmouth, and how big a chunk do you really think that would take from revenues? Not many, and not much. Besides, if it helped recover salmon and steelhead, the state would gain a bunch that they have been lacking in recent years since so many people quit fishing for salmon.

Keep in mind most of the folks at ODFW are fisherman/hunters too. They are under political pressure just like every other state agency. In this case, most of it comes from groups (like bass clubs), and the legislature (who do what they think will get them votes from people like WildHawg that apparently strongly dislike ODFW) in other words you've got a self-fulfilling prophecy. You dislike ODFW, so the legislature does too, and then they put ODFW in a position where they have no power to do what they should be able to do. In this case, whack smallmouth. I like to fish for em, but they shouldn't have a limit on them. Kill em all.

I think the best thing for sportsmen to do is support your fisheries agencies and biologists (they are incredibly dedicated people), and let them know what you think, ie. "we don't want limits on smallmouth", but realize that it's not always under their control, and they do the best they can with what they have. Instead of jumping their ass when they do something you don't like, why not help them do their job better.

[This message has been edited by chnookie (edited 12-16-2000).]

[This message has been edited by chnookie (edited 01-10-2001).]

[WildHawg]

Lets go for two birds with one stone. Rob, sadly I am in the minority when it comes to a catch and kill mentality. Almost all the guides make the vast majority of their income fishing for Smalleys on the "loop", a 17 mile section of river above Elkton which has enough nasty rapids that the public seldom ventures through there. Access is controlled by the Big K guest Ranch and the Kesterson family, very nice people but only able to see the $ signs when it comes to insisting that ALL smallmouth be released on their property. They don't have the guts to kill the bass that lays the golden egg. I for one feel it is my responsibility to tell it like it is. As for the average sportfisherman, yes, I think they do keep 10 where they used to only keep 5. Has the population decreased? Hard to say, but I'll guaranty you if you pulled the limit on them, myself and many of my friends would put a real hurt on 'em quick. Heck, nothing fertilzes a vegetable garden like juvenille smalleys!!

As for you brown nosed Chinookboy, you call up the ODFW in Roseburg and ask them how many people come to a river that previously had NO summer fishery exclusively to catch smalleys. You'll be surprised. Ask 'em about predation on smolts and they'll give you the standard line of "it's only a small percentage of their overall diet". What they fail to tell you is that it is a very LARGE percentage in late april, may, and early june. They will not tell you they would like to see the smallmouth eliminated because their mandate is to provide opportunities for recreation for all the special interest groups like the Basstard Masters who only care about themselves and are constantly organizing (or at least encouraging) the spread of these finned locusts. Bass are not native to Oregon--and they are destructive (you can argue with yourself as to how damaging they really are) to Salmon and Steelhead smolts. This is a fact, and as I stated before, I wouldn't trade 1 jack for a nine pound smalley. Everything that can be done must be done to eliminate as many of these vermin as is possible. The ODFW encourages the continuation of this fishery and manages them as a game species when in fact they are a predator. As for your comments about me moving to Waco since I am so far to the right, here's a little ditty for you: Bass, Bass, Bass can kiss my ASS!!! And so can you boy.

[This message has been edited by WildHawg (edited 12-16-2000).]

[MikeT]

WildHawg,
You made some interesting points about the potential impact smallmouth bass have on the salmon/steelhead/cutthroat smolts, although it's pretty clear there's virtually no solid, quantified data available to support either position. From what I've seen and heard, your stance on the issue is not entirely shared by the locals, the fish biologists or the Fish and Wildlife Commission, which means compromise and accommodation of the various constituents, stake-holders and users.
I agree that it's unfortunate that bass have been introduced to the NW. We don't need them and they're bound to have some negative effect on other fish species. Given the large populations of smallies on the John Day and Umpqua, it's also pretty clear that there's no easy solution. Catching, killing and wasting the fish won't solve the problem, nor will it make an appreciable dent in the bass population.
It's clear you feel strongly on the subject but you haven't offered much in the way of convincing evidence or viable solutions. Attacking the ODFW and the individuals responding to your posts didn't make your (weak) arguement any more convincing, but did demonstrate for the hundreds of regular readers what a self-centered, crass, and offensive indivual you are.
Welcome to IFISH.

best regards.....MikeT

[WildHawg]

Well Mike T., since when does defending yourself make you a crass, self centered, offensive individual". I never called anyone on this board anything till I was called some kind of fanatic. I am an Oregonian first, and a fisherman second. It is an oxymoron to say it is a waste to kill predatory, non native fish in an effort to protect Salmon/Steelhead--no matter what you do with them. Speaking of self centered, what does the thoughts of anyone else, ODFW, F&W Commission, or the illustrious posters of ifish, pro or con smallmouth have to do with the issue of killing and eating/fertilizing with smalleys? I could give a rip whether or not you like me, because I know that what I have witnessed with my own two eyes is all the evidence I need to back up my "weak" argument. Where does "solid quantifiable evidence" come into the picture when everyone agrees that they are not good for Salmon/Steelhead. You sound like a typical liberal to me--"lets see how everybody feels about this, then do a million dollar study to tell us that we need to do to be sensitive to peoples feelings, not Salmon/Steelheads needs." They are a damaging component of some of our rivers, and opinion does not change the fact that they do not belong. When you have spent 10% of the time I have on the water, come back and share something intelligent with me. Yeah, I am fervent in my dislike for Bass, and I'm not afraid to stand up for what is right. What is right is a kill upon catch policy on all Smalleys and other non native fish that damage our precious anadromous resources. I certainly hope I haven't offended you punk. Feel pretty big behind that computer? Open your eyes. This is Oregon, not Texas. KILL ALL NON NATIVE PREDATORS--Smalleys first, we'll work on the rest later.

[WildHawg]

Hey Mike T. & Chnooky, tired of facing the real issue? It's not about whether or not they are good sport to catch, the economic benefit they bring to small communities, or peoples likes and dislikes--it's about biology, and our Salmon and Steelhead don't need any more predators. We don't need to consider any other issues. ODFW needs to accept responsibility for the health of these rivers, and quit riding the fence on this issue. Which side of the fence have you fallen off of?

[Hoosier Daddy]

First off. Don't make it sound like I don't have the balls to respond to your notes WildPig. I just don't sit in front of the computer and ***** all day. Second, I am far from liberal, although I think you didn't direct that at me. Third, and I will repeat this in CAPS FOR YOU......WHETHER OR NOT SMALLEYS EAT SMOLTS (and I know they do because I have caught -then killed - them on smolt-like lures) WHETHER OR NOT THEY EAT SMOLTS DOESN'T MATTER IN THIS DISCUSSION BECAUSE ODFW TRIED TO REMOVE LIMITS ON THE DAMNED THINGS AND THE BASSTARD MASTERS (I like this) FOUGHT AND WON WITH THE SUPPORT OF THE REST OF YOU WHINERS. Fourthly, how much money do you make on smallmouth over the course of a year. You already mentioned this, but is it possibly a higher percentage of your income than it is for ODFW?? And last but not least, because I would love to sit here behind my computer and feel big for the rest of the night, I don't think anyone here was arguing about whether smalleys should be here or not. I would like to smack the folks that brought them and every other spiny-finned piece of crap out here. Fact is they are here, now what? Sure we should remove limits. ODFW has tried. Fight the Bass Masterbaiters, not the people who are trying to help. If warmwater fish are such a huge point of emphasis for ODFW, why do they only have two (2), yeah, count em' 2, people on staff to manage warmwater fish (bass, crappie, catfish, bluegill, etc.) for the whole freaking state. I think if they wanted to make money on it, they might hire a few more people to manage the fishery for maximum gain. Fact is they don't. You can check this out if you want, call Roseburg or anywhere else you want. There are two for the whole state.

I would also like to sit here and speculate on why you hate ODFW so much. But since it would involve making some suggestions about your personality that I don't think would be too nice, I won't. Suffice to say its a little suspicious.

[This message has been edited by chnookie (edited 12-17-2000).]

[Hoosier Daddy]

Oh yeah, almost forgot. About the brown-noser thing. I'm pretty sure a brown-noser is someone who kisses ass for personal benefit. Exactly what benefit would I have for supporting ODFW on an issue???? Beats me. If I thought they were to blame on this, I'd say so. They screw up too. And oh yeah, I am an Oregonian, by the way. Maybe the actual definition of brown-noser should refer to someone with their head up their own ass.

[WildHawg]

Dear Chnooky,
gotta give ya credit for spunk. I don't hate the ODFW, much less the Biologists who by and large do their best to protect the interests of native Oregon fisheries. I have heard the rhetoric though from more than just the 2 warmwater gamefish guys. Dave Lishia (sp?) and I have had some interesting talks about Smalleys. He's a fisheries bio from Roseburg who doesn't feel that smallmouth are a significant predator of salmonids. So I wonder...just how many smolt IS significant? I have personally witnessed one 2-3 lb smalley hen spit up six smolt when I pulled her into the boat. I don't know the exact # of bass per square mile on the Umpqua, but it is in the thousands. Extrapolate that and the quantity of smolt eaten (especially those last to head to the ocean: Wild Silvers and Sea Run Cutthroats) IS significant. At what point would ODFW (and the Commission)decide to ignore its constituency in favor of protecting native stocks? What possible point could the Basstard Masters make other than it is great recreation for a group of people and brings an economic benefit to the state and communities that would not exist if they did not support them by limiting the catch? I tend to lump the F&W Comiision and ODFW together. Maybe that is wrong of me, however the end result is protection for non native predators in at least 3 of the States finest Salmon/Steelhead fisheries. Whether or not it's fair, the buck stops with ODFW. I think you took alot of what I had to say to Mike T. and thought I was talking to you. You made sense to me till you made the smartass comment about Waco. As tempted as I am to respond to your last post, I will refrain. Perhaps you are not a brown nose, rather someone who doesn't understand the issue from my perspective. THE BUCK STOPS AT THE ODFW.

[rob allen]

Just a thought here.. Not trying to be arguementative anymore but i am wondering if the bass fisheries in oregon state disapeared how many more hatcherys would have to close due to the loss in revenue from lisence sales??

[Hoosier Daddy]

WildHawg. Sorry about all that, kind of lost my head. I didn't really mean anything personal by it, cause I understand where you are coming from, I think. I don't know if any studies have been done to look at smallmouth diets during the times you are talking about, and if they have, they were probably on the Columbia. I also know for a fact that they hammer smolts, having fished on the Umatilla and knocked the crap out of smalleys. But, you had to get them during a hatchery smolt release and use salmon-eque lures. If you did that, wham. I don't doubt that a lot of ODFW guys will continue to tell you that smallmouth are insignificant. One thing that is fairly common is that a lot of biologists will discount some things fisherman, etc. will tell them. I think because they start to lose their ability to distinguish a reasonable person from a dumbass after awhile, since they see plenty of both. However, this is too egotistical for a public servant. They need to listen to everybody. So, in this sense, I guess I agree with you that ODFW and the Commission should do something here. My point was in regards to why it hasn't been done yet. Again, I apologize for picking at you and if I got personal, that's unecessary, I just get a little wound up sometimes. I can't say when a decision would be made to eliminate limits on smallmouth, but it would probably take quite a stink, so I think you are on the right track there! Let me say again that I totally agree on this point, they need to be whacked!! Just eliminating the limits would put a real hurt on the smallmouth population, not necessarily get rid of them, but reduce the population and the sizes of individuals so they are not big enough to prey on smolts. This is already being done with squawfish, er pikeminnow, and it has been working. So, I guess if I could rephrase some of what I said earlier. You should definitely make a case for this whenever you can and as often as possible, but I think you would be more successful with a slightly less accusatory approach. You probably already would speak to biologists, etc. this way, so it's probably a moot point. But if you did ***** at them, expect them to shut down pretty quick. Anyway, public hearings, etc. are a good way to express this stuff. One good idea would be to suggest that if the Bass anglers want to continue to have populations of bass, they need to try to drum up funds to finance or partially finance a study, preferably in your area. This isn't as major as it sounds, there's lots of university folks and grad students who would jump at it for fairly cheap. Anyway, if they want the fish, they should be willing to put some money into proving they don't prey much on smolts (which I'm sure they do).
Rob - there may be something there, but like I said earlier, I don't think the proportion of income the state gets from bass fishing is high enough to make that big a dent. Besides, people would still be able to fish them, they just wouldn't be as numerous or as large. The bigger impact I think would be on the local economies. If less people came in to fish bass, some impact might be felt there. Likewise, if lowering smalley populations helped the salmonids, some of that might be replaced, or might get back to the way it was back whenever (70's? Hawg). But its not like the state separates bass money from salmon money either.

Back to the Bass Masturds. They may have the upper hand here because they are a little more organized, I don't know. Also, when I mentioned the state had tried to remove limits on smalleys, that may have only been on the Columbia, I don't know. Either way Hawgs right about this....

KILL ALL SPINY-RAYS!

[Hoosier Daddy]

Guess we're all done with this one?

[Phish_on]

I'm convinced ! I'm a bass-killer now !

Crawdad bait they are, Matey! Arrrrrr...

Whoever introduced them into Crane Prairie should be crawdad bait too -

[This message has been edited by Phish_on (edited 12-18-2000).]

[WildHawg]

Howdy Chnookie,
apology accepted, and one back at ya. I too get a bit wound up when I truly believe in something, and this is just such a cause. It took me alot of soul searching and a hard financial reality check to get the balls to "come out of the closet" on this issue. It would also cost me alot of friends whom I dearly care for were I to make a case in public. Sadly, I think it is time to burn some bridges. I am now at the point where I feel it's necessary to lower the guns--to hell with what people who are blinded by dollar signs think. As I have redundantly stated before--it's not about personal opinion, it's about what's right. You made some very constructive suggestions in your last post, especially the one about Bass clubs funding research to justify the preservation of their imported fishery. Again I apologize for being a reactionary. I sense we think alike on this subject after re reading our posts. Now go get a Steelhead for dinner. Peace, WildHawg

[steelie67]

I have a question for you guys . How about walleye ?? Diehard walleye fisherman say they don`t eat that many smolt , BS !! I have caught walleye with smolt jamed down their throats . They say the smolts travel in the upper water colume and walleye only hunt on the bottom . What do you guys think ? Any diehard walleye fishers on this BB.

[Hoosier Daddy]

Don't know much about walleye feeding habits. My stock answer would be if they got pointy fins, thump 'em in the head!! But that's a little oversimplified. Talk about a money maker too, the walleye fishery in the Columbia is a huge economic part of the gorge. I would also qualify this by saying that fish are fish, and any fish that can get a smolt in its craw, is going to do it whenever it can. Law of the wilds, whatever, it's true. I've seen dead trout and other fish that had sculpins stuck in their throat, the sculpins flair their gill cover and get stuck. Point is, if a fish can eat it, it will.

WildHawg, no apology is needed. That's what this is here for!! Go kill some smalleys. Can I buy some garden fertilizer next spring?

[This message has been edited by chnookie (edited 12-19-2000).]

[THE REEL HEY_YALL]

WELL Well well, interesting subject here and I told myself to stay away from the board for a few days just to make y'all do without fun for awhile, but since I am a Bassterbaiter and a BASSturd Master..those are quotes RT & Jenny...same ones you get onto me and O for http://www.ifish.net/forum/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif Well the bassterbaiter was of my own creation. http://www.ifish.net/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif Well let me see how I could educate y'all in something you may not have realized or even began to have pondered. Let's say there were no smallmouth in the river to begin with or let's say we dam the river and drain the lower part to the point of absolute zero smallies. Will they be back? For damn sure. Why? Because of some inbred fishermen "playing God". Not likely. It will be God playing God...wanna know why or how? Well the beloved blue heron (or other heron for that matter and other marine birds) who you see sneaking quietly on the shorelines....will actually pick up fish eggs on their legs and can naturally transplant fish into other habitats. That's a fact Jack. I know because on my 3,000 acres in bama, we have Koi ponds, then while seining the ponds, we will pull out sunfish and bass. There are no streams going into these ponds. After speaking with Fishery biologists, he told me about the marine birds issue. As fast as bass and sunfish grow and multiply, it would be impossible to eradicate them from a watershed..river or lake. Unless you put up a huge net over every single pencil wide stream feeding into it and the body of the water to keep the birds and "fishermen playing God" from introducing the fish. The heron and other marine birds go where the food is. Bass are all the way into Canada = migratory waterfowl & heron due to God playing God..sure some folks may have tossed a bass or two into the system. The fact remains...as the birds move, so will the fish. Bass eggs are that of a snotty membrane that sticks like a slug, and so are other warmwater species' eggs. The eggs can actually survive a summer or dry spring season when the water is gone out of a lake due to the moisture in the mud. There is so much naturally going on that it's easy to blame a person for your bass. If they are such a problem, then why even have a freakin' limit on them in the first place? I say have no limit. If they weren't there to begin with, then take them out..regardless of the % of impact, they still have an impact. Still though, the fish would eventually show up into the system regardless of whom you think is to blame. The birds transplant more fish than any man could ever tote out of a lake and toss in a river or lake. Now there is a whopping .02 cents worth for you to think about, especially next time you see a duck flying and landing into your river, or a heron stalking minnows on a shoreline.

[Phish_on]

That's very interesting, really! I didn't know that, what an impressive strategy - - the old Bird Factor.

NO LIMITS! I smell POLITICAL ACTION! When are the regs up for review again? Is it the bass fisherman who favor limits? Salmon & steelhead anglers will kick their _______s! Can't be much biological rationale for promoting invasive species ...

I do like to catch bass ... good fun!

[Hoosier Daddy]

I think the one thing WildHawg and I agreed on the most was that there should be no limits on them in certain places. And I do realize that fish eggs get moved by birds, however, the birds didn't bring spiny rays here in the first place. We did. And there are a bunch of rednecks, who I call Bucket Biologists, who plant fish willy-nilly where they would like to have them. This is fact. They've been caught redhanded(necked). Talk to folks who like to fish Crane Prairie and other Central Oregon lakes for trout, etc., there's plenty of B-B's over there. Yeah, now that they are here, we're not getting rid of them. We are only good at getting rid of the species we need to keep around, not the ones that don't belong here. PS Sorry hey yall, didn't mean to get away with something you got popped for!!

[hawgcatcher]

I agree that in some streams the smallmouths have done their best to eat all the smolts. But why argue. If they take out all the hatcheries, we won't have any hatchery fish to take home and eat. We will be stuck with smallies so we better get used to fishing for them.

[Nanook]

Wildhawg for president!!

Bass are ONLY good sturgeon bait (they
love these hybrid carp) and please the
almighty FORBID the bass tour ever figures
out what real fish are. Made some friends
with this post, NOT, no doubt. http://www.ifish.net/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif

"Nice un' Al Linder, Hank, et all TNN,
would love to see you catch an oversize
Sturgeon or upriver bright, trips on me
in a REAL boat too, NOT."

Say SON!

****** http://www.ifish.net/forum/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[This message has been edited by ****** (edited 12-19-2000).]

[Hoosier Daddy]

Al's pawkin the caw in the yawd, but he'll be right in!