Do Hatchery Fish Spawn in the Wild?

[Amerman]

I would like know everyone's opinions. Do hatchery fish successfully spawn in the wild? When talking about wild VS hatchery, people talk about In-breeding, between wild and hatchery fish, and people assume that their off-spring live. There are also a lot of people talking about hatchery fish spawning in the wild. Is there any proof to say whether this has ever happened? Also, a lot of people have talked about genetic testing of fish. It is my understanding that this cannot or has not been done yet. Does anyone know if it can be done?

I know there is lots of proof that some hatchery fish don't spawn in the wild. Like when you look at the coast rivers that have had summer Steelhead dumped in them for over 30 years, and we have watched these fish attempt to spawn in the wild. Yet when the state went to clipping all the released summer steelhead, within a couple of years 99.9 percent of the fish that returned to these rivers came back with their adipose fin clipped (The human error factor of clipping fins should be higher than that). Meaning that after 30 plus years of spawning in the wild, there has been no surviving offspring from these fish.

I think that if you look at the winter steelhead on the coast (Tillamook Bay, Nestucca, and Siletz) you can see the same thing. If you look at historical gil net records from the mid 1900's (before hatchery fish were introduced) you will see that in the months of Oct. through April there were signifcant numbers of returning wild winter steelhead that came back in each of these months. But since then we have introduced a strain of hatchery fish into these streams that prdominently return Nov.-Feb. We now have a distinct separation between the two runs with the hatchery fish returning early (Nov.-Feb.) and the Wild fish returning late (Feb.-April). If the hatchery fish spawned successfully, you would think that there would be some returning fish in the months of Nov.-Jan. that would return with their adipose intact. Not only are there none, or next to none, the wild fish that used to return in those months no longer do either. So if they inbreed, did there offspring die too? If not, where are they? On both the Siletz and Wilson rivers the first wild fish (adipose intact) that is taken for broodstock usually shows up in late Jan. or Feb..

Scott Amerman

[HOGTIDE]

Amerman,

I understand your pattern of logical deduction and reasoning. I also think you have a strong micro-view example of proof. But don't you think anadromous fish simply 'must' have an inate desire and capability to spawn,naturally? It just seems that logic would dictate that their genetic design for propogation and adaptation would carry through, with a significant portion of the run's population. Even in a hatchery strain, I believe there are almost infinite possibilities within the DNA codes that would provide for a propensity to spawn in the wild. I'm not a fish-husbandry guy, but this is my common sense opinion. However, my wife does tell me that 'common sense' is not my strong suit!

[Jim]

Scott,
Was in a meeting last year with WDFW and they had a biologist that claimed that hatchery salmon (don't know about steelhead) were successful at spawning at the rate of 40-60%...sure got me thinking.

Jim

[Salmonator]

Just read Scotts other post about the Santiam being all hatchery fish which I believe is correct. That section immediately below foster dam will be a good "viewing window" as to how many hatchery fish are spawning. Right now with all the adipose fins intact there's no way to tell, but the next few years will be interesting. Joe

[First Bite]

Scott
Great topic for discussion. I've talked with the Tillamook area biologists on this exact subject and found out some interesting facts. To the best of my memory, the biologists believe the returning hatchery Summer Steelhead cannot successfully spawn and they're not sure why. Ninety-nine percent of the summers are of hatchery origin. It's the 1% of the returning fish that are Native is the reason they have the fin-clipped only retention.

I fish the Wilson quite often during the fall and I can say that in the past five years I've probably caught 3 or 4, what I would call, "Native" Steelhead. These are fish that are caught from early September through October. On these fish, which are quite often 10-12 pounds, every fin is straight out. They all were extremely hard fighters too.

One other thing that I have noticed is the different fin clips on the returning hatchery fish. The Summer Steelhead that I catch from June-August are predominately RVAD clipped fish. Starting in September I'll see a mix of AD only clipped fish.

One week in November I landed a total of six Steelhead. Three were RVAD, two were AD only and one was non-finclipped. When I mentioned this to the biologists, they thought that the AD only fish that returned early (Sept) were miss clipped fish. Meaning that they were Summers and not early winter fish.

I'm not quite sure what to expect on the end of my line when the bobber goes down in the fall. If somebody does get a definitive answer let us all know. I for one would like to know if these truly are Native Steelhead that I'm catching.

Mark

[This message has been edited by stlhdr (edited 12-16-2000).]

[rob allen]

There has been and still is a study on the kalama river on the subject is. What they have found that althought the majority of smolts produced were form hatchery origin parents. these smolts went to the ocean unclipped but the vast majority of returning adults were native kalama fish not the offspring of the hatchery parents that spwaned in the wild.
in the fall of 1985 the washougal had a massive return of hatchery coho thousands of these fish spawned in the river and its tributaries. There was never an increase in outgoing smolts and no increase in returning adults. In fact i havent caught a coho in the washougal since 1985. I think that hatchery fish very rarely respoduce successfuly in the wild. The majority of the studies seem to indicate the same thing.
The Deschutes river is at this time in a state of reproductive failure. 70% of all the steelhead spawning in the Deschutes are out of basin hatchery strays!!
I think that all anglers should keep as many hatchery steelhead as possible in order to keep these fish from spawning with wild fish! Htchery fish do successfully spawn they do not however reproduce.

[Gone Fishin]

Hey Scott,

I know the Bio's tell us they're not capable of spawning in the wild, but yet when these fish come to the hatchery they take the eggs and mix it with milt from the same fish and produce more "inferior genetic clones" to make more. Yesterday, while on the Nestucca, we landed a small jack steelhead (I've had Bio's tell me there's no such thing as a jack steelhead too!) This fish was not clipped. Was it a native jack or a hatchery offspring wild fish? I guess what I'm trying to say is...Good Question! I wish I had an answer!

[Hoosier Daddy]

Yes I can tell you from experience that hatchery fish can and do spawn in the wild. As part of a supplementation program on the Umatilla River (relax, there were no wild salmon left there) the tribe planted Fall Upriver Brights from Priest Rapids in the upper river so they could spawn. There was virtually no other spawning going on, and the next year, bammo, smolts out the kazoo. Of course every place/fish is different, but it can happen.

[Amerman]

Thanks to all for the great feedback.

Hogtide, I agree that fish have the desire to spawn. What I question is do they do it successfully? What if (this is just that, a what if) fish are born with the natural desire to spawn but upon leaving the gravel, they learn how deep they should be burried, how much river flow there must be, and what kind of oxygen is in the water they were born in and who knows what else. The fish born in the hatcheries don't get this so maybe that is why they can't spawn successfully.

Jim, I would love to see their study and see how they came up with this number.

Joe, it will be great to see what happens to the Springers on the S. Santiam when all returning fish are clipped. Then we will know if there are any that return unclipped. I know a lot of fish spawn in that river and its tributaries. The hatchery there has also been dumping surplus spring Chinooks in all the tributaries above and below the dam for the last four years or so. I can't wait to see what happens. I hope it's not like what happened with the coast Summer Steelhead (they all came back clipped).

Mark, I have guided and fished both the Nestucca and Wilson lots since they have clipped all summer steelhead. I have not caught one that had an intact Ad, not one. I also don't fish for them much after August. I have heard other people talk about catching wild ones. But I have not seen one. I wonder if a stray factor can explain the various clippings and nonclippings you are seeing as I know all Tillamook area stream's summer steelhead are marked RVAD. Maybe the nonclipped fish are straying from the Siletz or some other river that has a wild run. Or maybe they do spawn successfully.

Rob, do you know how they knew the returning fish where from wild fish and not these hatchery smolts. I agree that we should kill all out of basin hatchery fish before they can spawn.

Marty, thanks. I don't think I know all the answers. I just feel I have lots of questions.

chnookie, I am glad to hear it is working on the Umatila river. I have heard lots about all the work they are doing there (building fish ladders, working with farmers to increase river flow while maintaining irrigation and just trying to get the fish to come back). I will try to find out more about what they are doing and see if anybody has written a study about what is being done. If you are aware of one, please inform me about how to get it.

[Clamman]

Scott Amerman,

Depending upon the system hatchery fish can and do viably spawn. Of course you will have systems that will always receive hatchery strays that never have viable spawns. As far as the rate of viability of spawning...that is subjective to the system in question and you probably couldn't put a number as a whole.

Genetic testing has been done on the Sandy River fall chinook, Willamette River Springers, Upper Columbia Springers, Snake River Springers along with a number of hatcheries throughout the Columbia River system. Genetic testing has been done on other species as well, including smelt, steelhead, bull trout, white and green sturgeons. Results from genetic testing brings a wealth of information including stock compositions in fisheries, hatchery/broodstock takes, aids in determining ESA ESU's to name a few. If you have other questions regarding this topic, email me or ask on the board.

ISG

[This message has been edited by Ifish Special Guest (edited 12-16-2000).]

[Shannon]

Yes they do mix breed. I have seen it. Go to Dog Creek off the Clackamas in late Feb. early Mar. and you will see. I have actually walked right up on them pairing up with natives in that small creek and dig and yes, spawning together.

Hatchery Clones forever!!!

[Amerman]

Ifish special guest.
Do you work for the ODFW? I missed it if you have been introduced to us all. Has there been any studies done on hatchery fish spawning successfully? Has any Group (ODFW or other) ever watched a stream and caught smolts to see if they have come from hatchery fish such as rivers that only have hatchery fish. Everyone talks about hatchery fish spawning sucessfully. Is there any proof to this or is it all theory? With all the research, money and time that has been spent studying Salmon and Steelhead, has anyone every studied this?
You say some rivers will have hatchery strays that never have a viable spawn. Do you consider dumping summer steelhead in a river such as the Wilson for 30 plus years hatchery straying. For many years everyone believed that the hatchery summer steelhead spawned successfully in the coast rivers until we found out differently. Am I wrong in the assumption that in these rivers the summer Steelhead and possibly the Winter steelhead don't spawn successfully. Maybe it is because the rivers that I am looking at are stocked with out-of-basin hatchery fish. Any help here would be great.

Shannon, I agree that there is mix breeding. I have seen them pair up my self. I am wondering if thier offspring live and return.

[Deleted User]

The obvious consensus is that they try to spawn, but with very limited success. I did a lot of jig fishing/experimenting with Mark this fall on upriver summer steelhead. On one big multifish day Mark landed two male steelhead with aidpose fins intact, as well as all other fins appearing in good shape (hats will most often have a ragged edged dorsal fin). To me these were obvious summer steelhead, not super early winter steelhead nates way up river, with the tyical fall coloration of summers. Then on another day a couple weeks later in another area of the upper Wilson we hooked 4 and landed 2, both the landed fish were adipose intact and similar colored males to those previous ones, miles apart. On that multifish day the fish were on such a hilacious bite that the 2 AD intact fish could have been the same one, caught about an hour apart. On the later trip the 2 AD intact fish were landed 10 minutes apart. They looked the same so it's possible it could have been the same fish also; a real eager dummy that just couldn't resist a tipped jig? So there were at least 2, and up to 4, possible naturally spawned fish up there that were spawned of hatchery parents; or could have been strays or hats that missed getting clipped. This is significant to me because if we caught some of them there's got to be a significant number of AD intact fish up there. I would love to know their actual history and staus, but they must be released and should be. Maybe Rick or Keith could run a crew up there and seine trap some and capture one AD intact fish to examine? Would be interesting. - RT

[Sand Shrimp]

I don't think hatchery steelhead spawn succesfully in the wild,well at least summer steelhead.The Salmon river(Sandy Trib)was heavily planted with hatchery summer steelhead for years when it was open for fishing and natives were very rare on that river.Those fish where strong and hard fighting fish and they couldn't reproduce. Alot of the hatchery winter steelhead I have hooked have not fought very well.How many of you have hooked crome hatchery winter steelhead and had them spitting their eggs on the bank even though the meat is bright orange?

[Steve]

For my .02 worth, I have worked at a local Estacada hatchery several years ago...if you think that these fish are "hatchery clones" you just are arm chair coaches...the hens are de-egged into a common bucket 5 to 10 hens and about as many bucks...I am talking coho.. anyway the chance of any one fish having the same (cloned genes) is about 0 to 1% there is no high grading of larger fish...little bucks have the same chance as the biggest strongest bucks. What galls me is that the hatcheries only are required to produce X number of viable eggs..the rest are made into fish food or given away...according to the news as a high protien food source for the needy...personally I wouldn't eat a spawner/soreback..I would rather see some of the streams that have extinct runs stocked with eggs and special regs allowing the taking of untagged fish..maybe flyfishing only sections and all tackle areas...?

[Clamman]

Scott,

I was never introduced to this board nor being associated with any group. Do I currently work for a fisheries management agency? No, not at this time, though I have in the past.

As far as studies on viable hatchery stock spawns, yes there is current research being conducted by ODFW and most other state agencies where a large infux of hatchery raised fish return. The Columbia River, which used to have huge runs of "wild" salmonids, now is reduced to a great portion of returning salmon being artificially reproduced. With this transition of self sustaining populations to supplementation, preexisting spawing ground index counts and juvenile observations have seen an arithmatic shift in spawn timing.

Once fish were observed spawning throughout the timeframe. Now there is a definite break in the bell-shaped curve corelating to run timing. Due to unforseen hatchery selectivity practices, early stock fish were artificially selected as the primary stock. This due to the fact that hatcheries had egg take quotas which they filled as quick as they could and thus disregarded the rest of the run (no need to cry over spilt milk this began a long time ago). From this practice, the Columbia River (specifically Coho the canary in the mineshaft species) saw hatchery stocks returning as the early portion of the run and wild stocks returning as the later portion of the run.

Salmon spawning counts have seen fish in hatchery fed streams and non-hatchery fed streams relatively consistant. Juvenile electro-shocking for presence and abundance has shown that smolts are present in relative abundance through what would be considered viable spawning timeframes for both early (hatchery) and late (wild) runs.

A few more examples of such viable spawning from hatchery and wild stock crossbreeding include; Chum in the lower Nehalem tribs. There used to be a chum hatchery on the Foley system. It has been out of operation for many years yet chum come back in large numbers annually. Fall chinook below Bonneville Dam, the Dalles Dam, and the John Day Dam, both wild and hatchery, have recolonized spawning sites and are viably spawning to reproduce returning progeny (tagging validates this).

As far as the Wilson, out of basin fish, destruction of spawning habitat, and general urban sprawl can reduce or delete viable spawns. One must have returning adult fish, suitable spawning habitat, suitable rearing habitat in the stream, suitable estuarine habitat and compatible ocean conditions for stable populations. If you do not have these, don't expect miracles. Fish spawn because they are the vessel for their genetic contents. Their inate desire to spawn whether it is viable or not may confuse people into believing fish are producing naturally. Without verifiable recording (tagging, genetic testing, and spawing indices) nothing can be realistically billed as fact. I hope this helps


ISG

[Hoosier Daddy]

A lot of folks in BC have worked on creating artificial side channels for spawning. That's about as close as I have heard of.

[SSPey]

I think that also in some eastern rivers with former runs of Atlantic Salmon that there have been efforts to introduce spawning gravel in rivers heavily silted from poor land management. I'm not sure if it worked, since there were so many complicating factors that could have caused the demise of the Atlantic Salmon. And the case of the Atlantic Salmon should be a lesson to us here in the Pacific Northwest. Really hammered 'em good.

[Hammer Bob]

On the Sacramento River they have been placing tons of gravel in the upriver stretches (near Redding) to allow gravel recruitment blocked by Shasta Dam. This appears to be working as the majority of the fish I catch appear to be wild spawned fish. I have not heard of any CF&G reports on its success as an "official" word just personal observations. Side channels were also tried many years ago on the Sacramento and did not fair that well. Side channels on the Trinity river did help produce quite a few fish from what I have heard.

On the genetic testing as far as I know most of the studies use mitochondreal DNA which only comes from the female genome. This does give evidence for which run the maternal side came from but provides no information on the paternal side of the genetic equation. It is still quite suprising how many of the studies indicate a high degree of run fidelity and timing across the NW. I know on the Sacramento the spring, fall, and late-fall runs are typically considered to be one large spawning biomass with a lot of hybridization ocurring. However, there appears to be sufficient expression and isolation of the genome to keep these individual runs timed for their historic returns (springs may through july and fall august through october followed by late-falls returning november through december). It does amaze me that these runs have been able to survive and maintain their individual characteristics despite the impact of a severly modified hydrograph and forced main stream spawning!

just my $.02
HB

[Clamman]

HB,

Mitochondria are organelles seperate from the cell's nucleus and its DNA. Mitochondria are found in nearly all cells regardless of sex. They by no means have any isolated association with a single genome.


ISG

[Hammer Bob]

That is not quite correct. Mitochondrea are found in all cells of the body but they are derived from the parenting female. The original mitochondrea in an organism are found in the females egg and from there they multiply and divide along with the rest of the cells using their own DNA. Mitochondreal DNA is a proven way to track the maternal lineage of a species and there has been many many studies using this. Mitochondrea are really unique in that they have their own DNA (circular like bacteria) which they use to replicate themselves but they come only from the female parent.

As a reference: The Molecular Biology of the Cell. Bruce Alberts et al

Quote "In higher animals, by contrast, the egg cell always contributes much more cytoplasm to the zygote than does the sperm. One would expect mitochondreal inheritance in higher animals, therfore, to be nearly uniparental (or more precisely maternal)."

This is indeed the case and has been demonstrated in all higher animals...exceptions in yeasts and plants.

[This message has been edited by Hammer Bob (edited 12-19-2000).]

[Clamman]

HB,

I stand corrected on that point. It has been a while since I was a student in basic genetics. The use of mtDNA is the most commonly used for genetic analysis in salmonid populations. The fact that the tiny mitochondrial genome, unlike the much larger nuclear genome, is directly transmitted through the maternal line, makes it an ideal piece DNA with which to trace family lineage's. From F1 through Fn, tracing the maternal line doesn't deviate the overall results. One can still determine from a baseline data record what one individuals lineage is (re:stock).


ISG

PS. I know UC Davis a bit.

[Dances]

I was just wounderin if anyone has ever watched a Steelie spawned. They dont just have one mate.
They have several mates they spawn with one for a while then ditch him and go get another male. I have seen a hatchery steelie spawn with both hatchery and native fish. now weather or not the fish survived is unknown but, I know of a river where a group of people have been trying to bring back a run of winter run steelies and it has been success full for the most part.
They started out with only 1 redd in the first year of the devlopment.
Over the past years they have inter grated wild and hat fish and now have 10 redds in only a few years.
Now this may not sound like alot but if you look at the entire picture they started with one redd from native fish and now have ten useing a mix of fish. So maybe hat fish do survive.


------------------
Work is for people who dont know how to fish

[Hammer Bob]

Yes ISG, mtDNA is a very powerful tool for fisheries managers but it still does not give any indication of the degree of hydridization (if any)with other strains or runs of fish. Paternity tests are pretty difficult to conduct in fish!

It remains very difficult if not impossible to determine the "purity" of any strain of fish in a given river/stream system.....but it's the best we got at the present and some of the overall results from recent studies are encouraging in the ability of runs to maintain their apparent genetic purity (hats vs nates issue)!!

[Simon Peter]

ISG,
Thanks everybody for the thought provoking posts!

On a similar topic does anybody know of any study or observations of "adding" additional spawning gravel to rivers.

I was on a small coastal river this fall observing some spawning chinook. This river has been really ***** of it's spawning gravel from years of logging and other watershed activity. I was wondering if you added loads of river gravel to areas that are condusive to spawning (heads of holes, tailouts etc)that since there would be more spots to spawn, thus more fish are able to spawn and promote more native runs?

Does this logic sound possible? I think it would be something that would require a pilot test somewhere but I am curious if it has even been suggested. Anybody know anything?

Thanks!