What is faith ?

[RODACTION]

This is my question, what is faith ? I am looking for the definition, answer, explination, or what you have to say..... :shrug: I could elaborate as to why I ask this question, and maybe I will later on if I can "grasp" a answer to the question that will really sink into me, and ring my bell that I need to have rung. So please if you could tell me your answer, it could help me out. Thank you very much, Ken

[AnglersRental]

What is faith? For me faith is much more about action than belief. I personally have doubts about my own spirituality from time to time, and I often fall short of the example set by Christ that I want to follow in my own life. Because of this, I used to wonder why, if my imperfect adherence to the law or my imperfect works in my life seperated me from God, how then would my imperfect faith lead me to God and / or salvation???

Finally it occured to me that real faith does not mean never having a doubt or a question, but rather being willing to search out and follow Gods will to the best of my understanding in spite of having doubts and questions. Being willing to ask God what he wants done, and being willing to base my choices, decisions, and most of all my actions on my often limited knowledge of His will - and then leaveing the results completely in God’s hands is what faith means to me.

Does doubt and questions indicate a lack of faith? Not to me. I would suggest that the man who is willing to trust in his understanding of God and place his fate in the hands of his God despite his having those doubts and unanswered questions has commited a far greater act of trust and faith than those who might never have doubts or questions to begin with.

I do not believe God has asked me to blindly follow... for in my life and the lives of those around me, I have been able to observe the results of placing trust in God. Some time ago I started trusting in God on small things that (in hindsight) were kind of trivial and probably didn' matter much in the long run. But as I observed the results of trusting God, I saw how well those things turned out. Which in turn lead to greater faith and trust on larger issues. Once again, I was able to observe the results. Eventually, after many rounds of action and observation. I came to the conclusion that God can and does manage many things far better than I can myself.

He seems OK with that, and today so am I. :flowered:

Brad

[RODACTION]

Thanks for the reply UG. Ken

[newfly]

in its litteral form, it means:

************************************************** **********

Pronunciation: 'fAth
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural faiths /'fAths, sometimes 'fA[th]z/
Etymology: Middle English feith, from Old French feid, foi, from Latin fides; akin to Latin fidere to trust -- more at BIDE
1 a : allegiance to duty or a person : LOYALTY b (1) : fidelity to one's promises (2) : sincerity of intentions
2 a (1) : belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2) : belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion b (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2) : complete trust
3 : something that is believed especially with strong conviction; especially : a system of religious beliefs

************************************************** ****

now i suspect that you want more than its literal form, you are looking for a definition that is more personal? the problem in going beyond the literal definition is that we then have no "sameness" to use as a foundation for the discussion. if person one is allowed tho have their definition and person two a whole different one, any discussion of faith becomes quite nebulous. the whole idea of a perceptual reality or a perceptual truth (in this case definition) in semantics does not serve us well. we have established a universal meaning for this word.

[Dullhook]

I came to the conclusion that God can manage many things far better than I can myself.




Amen to that U.G; That makes two of us!

RODACTION:

Uglygreen sums it up well. We look as faith as a channel of living trust that stretches from man to God. We know in our hearts and through the Bible that God always fulfills His promises.

Anyone that has been reborn through Christ has noted a definite change in their nature and actions. Some of us were complete failures in controlling our lives and the harder we tried the worse things seemed to get. We found out that having faith in ourselves just didn't work, but having faith in Jesus took the heat off. Faith is the assurance that the right decision will always be made in the future because God's faithfulness has always proved true in the past. It's knowing that our trust will always be rewarded.

Does this mean that our lives will be problem free and perfect. Far from it. All of us tend to interfere with God's direction at times. But we know from past experience that if we follow His direction and keep ourselves out of the way that all will be right.

[wishin]

Uglygreen,
Your moniker may be "ugly", but your heart is obviously not. This post, and your post on the organized religion thread, are so simple, yet so deep. God is working through you today, and I will thank Him for your words. You are a kind person.
wishin

[FireCat]

I would love to add to this...but I cant because you guys have done such a great job explaining...you cant add to prefection..good job....Lord Bless

[Riverbankslayer]

Here is a true meaning of Faith!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRlOWm1K9Aw&search=two-legged%20dog

[rimrock]

Faith is a difficult word. It’s not that I disagree in the least with what has been shared but as newfly touched on the word faith is so generalized it’s meaning alone is :shrug:. To best answer your question would you be willing to elaborate so we could work at grasping an answer together. It is a very good question.

Interestingly enough from the Christian perspective it’s the only word to my knowledge which is defined for us in the Bible:

“Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.” (Hebrews 11:1).

So what does that mean? :smile:

[Jennie@ifish]

Faith is waking up knowing things as simple as "the sky will be above my head, today."

Faith is the simple and absolute belief that God is there for us, each day, in every way.

Do you believe that, with all of your heart? As much as the fact that the stars are in the sky? Humans don't. We doubt.

If anyone can honestly tell me that they know God is there as much as they know that the stars are in the sky, I will hesitate to believe you and I will be very, very envious!

I think most people have periods of doubt. Sad, but true.

Jen

[JustCallMeDave]

If anyone can honestly tell me that they know God is there as much as they know that the stars are in the sky, I will hesitate to believe you and I will be very, very envious!



Are the stars in the sky not proof enough that God is there?

I think it is, but that's faith for ya.

[newfly]

my reason for giving a websters answer was to see what reaction i got. what i have seen is that most people do not want to have definition in lasting words. otherwise you would grab at the establsihed one, which is very similar to the quote from rimrock.

if you don't want a definition that is universal, you must want a definition that fits each person. it seems that you want to leave the definition open for each person to decide for themself. some of you have said that.

i am ok with that. but doesn't that mean that you need to be able to leave peoples spititual beliefs up to them too? you can't have it both ways. you can't say that faith is a personal definition for you to decide and you can ignore the written definition, but your definition of God has to be "our" way and you must follow the rules. i hope that you can see how this is troubling.

the question is a very good one. i see faith as an action. i respect it very much because it tells me that it is behavor based. it is action oriented. i like that, i just prefer to use it to guide my actions in a manner that i can control............not to guide the actions of others.

[rimrock]

0

[newfly]

so....faith is faith. period. you can not get yourself in better grace with God by trying to have more faith or by doing more good deeds? you either have it or you don't?

i can embrace that. but still, what is faith? as some say, is it an unquestioning belief in the "traditional" doctrines of a religion, in this case in christianity? because some of the "traditional" doctrines, as litterally espoused from some as coming from the bible i can not find in my heart a place to accept. or is it enough for it to be an unquestioning belief in what i perceive to be Gods doctrines? can i be said to have faith, if my belief, loyalty and trust to God is based on what i believe He stands for, if that is different than what the "traditional" church stands for?

[Snapset]

I love this question. Another question for a different thread would be "Why is faith such an important part of our Savior's plan for us?".

Rimrock, I can't tell you how much I respect you sir. You have demonstrated graciousness and wisdom time and again. With that said, I have an unclear idea about what you said about " it’s not something we can work up within ourselves" and "Without faith it is impossible to please God". This might leave those who are considering the first step of their walk with God futile.

You see the way I have been taught and come to believe is that faith requires a small step from us first. We have to try. That is how we begin to develop a greater faith that leads us to a greater love for our savior. Clearly we won't succeed by ourselves, but the Savior's intercession will make up the difference.

While I believe it is Jesus Christ who perfects our faith, it is our initial leap of faith that invites Him into our lives. I am thinking of the promise in James 1: 5&6. "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally,and upbraideth not,and it shall be given unto him. But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed."

Thanks for the response, Rimrock. If we have different definitions, I am fine with that, but I might learn something here so I had to ask.

My incomplete answer to the question "What is Faith?


Religion

It fits the dictionary tertiary definition, but it also tells us some of why we go to church on Sunday, or why we worship in the manner we choose. It is an incomplete definition of course, but it is an aspect of faith.

[fishnwHim]

This is a very thought provoking thread, it actually hurts my brain a bit :laugh: I think that faith requires something more than merely knowing or believing that the stars are in the sky or that the sky will be above us tomorrow. We have seen those things and simply assume or take for granted that they will be there tomorrow and the next day. Faith is believing in something that is unseen and unproven. If we are talking about God, a Creator or a higher power, then it takes Faith, which is a DECISION to believe in something we have not physically seen. An example from my belief system would be from the Bible , when Thomas said he had to see to believe and Jesus showed him the holes in His hands and Thomas believed , then Jesus said " you have believed because you have seen , but blessed are those that have not seen, yet believe" That is Faith for me. :wave: :wave: :wave:

[newfly]

but i still have a question about this. so faith is not performance based (and again, performance is the act of doing what is right--not in competition with others for best faith award, but rather doing what is right because it is right). you have faith or you don't. i understand the need for it to be that way. otherwise the promise of what is called "salvation" is only available to those that have walked the religion for a long time. those people who have not followed the doctrines would have no reason to convert if it wasn't that way. people on their "death bed" so to speak, would have no reason to repent and accept the Lord if there was no possiblity of them finding "salvation". so the idea of making it available to anyone that will simply "open thier heart" and accept God certainly is understandable on a logical level.

however, does performance not have a place in christianity? otherwise, what value do you place on living a life that respects other life? that respects the teacings of God and of Christ? there seems to be no value then for a person to follow a path, to live on this earth and to help other people live on it. not in a competive way as many seem to interpret my comments, but in a manner that simply shows respect for the life that you were each given. how many people go to church on sunday, but live their lives all week in a very "non christian" way, just sort of stayin in touch on sunday so that when the time comes they can accept God and be forgiven.......and be given this thing called "salvation"?

still seems pretty self centered i guess. the biggest priority is given to taking care of yourself for the final eternity. where is the value for trying to find a life that lets you walk the spirit of the religion every day? then, however, i guess you would have to figure out what the spirit of the religion really was........that seems to get pretty distorted too.

[SalmonJeff]

Hebrews 11:1

faith is the substance of things hoped for the evedience of things not seen.

[rimrock]

It’s been an encouragement to read what everyone is sharing. As a diamond has many facets each one beautiful in of itself the more facets we learn and see, the more beautiful the diamond. In many ways this is the value in questions like what is faith, what is salvation…we see more of the diamond as we each share on the many different facets.

Does performance have a place in Christianity or is there a first step as newfly and Snapset addressed? In a way yes, BUT performance/action isn’t faith at all it’s the product of faith; that is a very important distinction. The action of faith is the natural result of a relationship with God – cause and affect as is were. When we breathe is producing CO2 breathing or is it the by-product of breathing? Similarly with faith, we confuse the act with the by-product. The act of faith is solely the work of God in a Christian’s life; it’s a gift from Him. We cannot try to have faith anymore than I’m conscious of my breathing. The difficulty with faith is we focus on the wrong thing – we focus on our actions (by-product) in other words we focus on ourselves. The better focus is on the Giver of faith.

Let’s look at it this way. Now if a Christian is not producing action (by-product) that is a very dangerous sign – the performance part in Christianity. But if I stopped producing CO2 the problem isn’t the lack of me producing CO2, it’s the fact I’m not breathing anymore – I’d be dead. This is what James is driving at “faith without works is dead” (James 2). The issue isn’t the lack of action at all; that’s the wrong focus. The issue is without action it shows you’re not alive, you stopped breathing or maybe you never even started. Focusing on producing more action, more CO2, doesn’t do anything if you’re not alive to begin with; you need to start breathing and only God can do that - "it’s not something we can work up within ourselves" – it truly is a gift from God.

Faith is only as good as the object in which it is placed! True faith is absolute trust, which takes closeness with God for distance creates our doubts – closeness with God takes time. And we need not get frustrated or feel guilty over doubt, but see it as a sign to draw closer. As I earlier touched on in Hebrews 11:1 the writer first explains the nature of true faith, giving not so much a definition as a description. Faith is trust in the unseen. It is not trust in the unknown, for we may know with absolute certainly what we cannot see with the eye. Faith is the ultimate assurance and the ultimate evidence that things not seen are realities. I have not seen Jesus anymore than I have seen my own heart, but both are absolute realities. There is enough evidence to absolutely trust; without doubt God is always there even in the darkest times. The Christian walk to truly a walk of faith, not a blind walk, but a walk that can only be seen in the light of Jesus Christ “the author and perfector of our faith” (Hebrews).

[newfly]

but again, i have to ask you the same question. if performance is the by product of faith, and in the framework of our discussion of christian faith............then is faith more valued by the religion? i mean if the action part of this, which to me seems very important, is only a by product, then what about all of the people that i see of different religions and some with no religion, but whose daily "performance" or the "outcome" of their lives on a daily basis, is one that follows the practices that you see as a by product of faith? since those actions are not actually preceded by this faith that you define, then what are they a by product of? can those actions not exist independant of faith? and can they only be a by product of christian faith? i think that this is an important distinction and that perhaps your perspective in viewing performance as a by product of faith is somewhat colored by your own faith. the same outcome of action, what we refer to as performance, can be present but without this idea of faith, is not of value in that case? seeing it from your perspective, which i do understand and respect very much......and do not critisize in itself for it can serve the world well, i have to ask again where is the value? on the faith or the performance? because if it is the outcome performance), then we can all celebrate together, whatever religion or spiritual belief system that you have because we can all share in a common goal. if it is the faith, as defined, then the outcome is secondary and we are left to argue over whoes faith or "traditional doctrines" are more correct.

[RODACTION]

Thanks you guys and gals, I have faith and follow God. My wife way more so than me, I have had some doughts here and there because of what happened to me. What happened to me is really hard for me to put behind, and just forget, I relive the pain everyday, don't feel as good as I used to, get a shot once aweek for the rest of my life, and I just ask why, and my wife does not unrderstand and kinda thinks I'm challanging Gods will...........of faith, it is hard for me to put it into words.

My general question about the whole thing that happened to me is WHY !!! You see, Ken (me) almost bit the big one in Dec of 2003 and into 2004, it was may of 2004 before I could even begin to walk with a cane, August 2005 before I was not in therapy. My question to my wife is why did this all happen to me ? Does God love me ? If so why did this happen ? I have also talked to others about this, including proffesionals, and basicaly, it is not about me getting hurt or sick, it is that God helped me get well and heal, thus, there is the "message" and we all had "faith". But, we had faith before I got hurt, and sick ??? So why did this happen, well there are many things that are better now in my life, so is that message of faith ?, I get to be well because of my faith ? With this whole thing happening, because we/I had faith there is the message of better things..........I don't get that part of having to suffer. (pitty party :smirk:) What brought my first question of me asking what is "FAITH" is because my wife and I were talking on Friday night over dinner, and I asked her what good would have come if I had died ? What is the message there ? Yes, I get to go home to the lord....but at such a bad time for me, I have a wife, kids, friends, family, fishing to do, camping and hunting, laughing, joking, I asked what is the good message to everyone else involved, not me, but them, how do they come out on this deal,.....have faith ?

I hope you can read and understand what I'm talking about, It may read to you as a challange of the the faith !! It is not meant to be a challange at all, I just want to understand BETTER. Yes, I have it far better that millions of people, so I feel very lucky with what I have, I have all of the people that are friends, and I hope you can see why I asked the question, even though it maybe hard to read my reasoning. Thanks to all, Ken

[wishin]

You know sometimes I think that we attribute too much earthly activity to God. Almost paint Him as a grand manipulator at times. How about this thought. The day to day, good and bad, trials and tribulations, suffering and joy - are just life! It is our response to life that God is looking for.

Hard to imagine that God creates suffering for a purpose, and I don't believe that God does. But, what is our response to that suffering? Does our faith sustain us during our own suffering? Does our faith bring about a response to others suffering? It is similar to rimrock's thought that works, or the way we live, is conditioned by our faith. (did I paraphrase that correctly rimrock?).

wishin

[rimrock]

Yes, I think you paraphrased it just fine wishin.

Ken as for “why” these very difficult, very personal challenging things happened to you I know with absolute certainty I can answer your question…I don’t know :depressed:. And I don’t mean that to be trite or downplay the suffering you and your family went through and are still going through in anyway. For all the questions God answers in Scripture He never answers one, and that’s the why? Even if God tried I’m sure we couldn’t even understand, it would be like one trying to teach the theory of relativity to a 2-year old child – it’s beyond their ability to reason.

That is why the Bible links faith so closely to hope and not understanding. The hope, the absolute certainty God will redeem those who look to Him from the injustice that is in the world. Suffering happens it’s the brokenness of day-to-day life and to put it mildly it stinks for suffering wasn’t even God’s original plan – I realize that doesn’t make what you are experiencing any easier. Continue to wrestle with God about it, He is fine with that. He would rather you do that then turn away from Him…that response in faith to God is many times in the course of our suffering is all we can do.

[rimrock]

what about all of the people that i see of different religions and some with no religion, but whose daily "performance" or the "outcome" of their lives on a daily basis, is one that follows the practices that you see as a by product of faith? since those actions are not actually preceded by this faith that you define, then what are they a by product of? can those actions not exist independant of faith? and can they only be a by product of christian faith?


That is an important distinction newfly. Certainly the non-Christian can live a life in many ways and thru many actions let’s even say which easily surpasses the professing Christian be them acts of love, devotion, charity, giving…that is fair to say and happens all the time. What are they a product of since they certainly exist independent of faith in Jesus? The answer to that question isn’t as much about faith but more, I would submit, about where does morality/truth come from? If the non-Christian and the Christian each “know” what is right and what is wrong and live their lives out in that fashion it must go beyond faith in Christ. I would again submit morality is a slightly different direction than faith, since faith is tied much more closely to hope in that which is unseen but certainly which is knowable.

[more to follow addressing your other thoughtful questions…]

[newfly]

so then does God see a distinction? if both live their lives in the same manner, knowing and living what is right, does God only "reward" the person with faith with "salvation"?

i'm not trying to be rhetorical. your answers are very good and very insightful but cause me more questions. maybe i am taking this a step too far and i don't mean to do that.

[RODACTION]

Wow rimrock, thanks alot, that got me a little misty eyed :smirk: I feel with all of the replys to this I am getting a grasp of what I need to do, and rimrock, with your term of "wrestle" it really sinks into me about my questioning of the the word faith. I'm not challanging it....altough I feel I am sometimes, I really want to understand it, and know where I'm going. I have been emailing these responces to my wife, she can not belive the the help I have got from all of you. Thanks guys and gals.
rimrock...... :cheers:

[newfly]

Wow rimrock, thanks alot, that got me a little misty eyed :smirk: I feel with all of the replys to this I am getting a grasp of what I need to do, and rimrock, with your term of "wrestle" it really sinks into me about my questioning of the the word faith. I'm not challanging it....altough I feel I am sometimes, I really want to understand it, and know where I'm going. I have been emailing these responces to my wife, she can not belive the the help I have got from all of you. Thanks guys and gals.
rimrock...... :cheers:



what a graceful thing to say to rimrock for answering your questions. keeping in mind why you were asking this, i have to say that your thank you to rimrock says an awful lot about you. it is nice to have you around here.

[Snapset]

I knew I'd learn something. Thanks for the reply, Rimrock.

[rimrock]

Thank you again Ken for your very gracious words. Enjoy this Easter season! :angel:


so then does God see a distinction? if both live their lives in the same manner, knowing and living what is right, does God only "reward" the person with faith with "salvation"?



Yes, God sees a distinction. And in truth I’m grateful. Salvation is thru faith in God by His grace to us. I know that seems very confusing and even on one hand quite unjust if a non-Christian person lives a very good life and is denied salvation simply because they didn’t have faith or place their hope in Christ. I will try to clarify, just know any and all questions are welcome; they don’t bother me in the least they are wise and thoughtful. Let’s see if we can try to do this is a way we each may be able to agree upon that’s as separate as possible from any particular religious coloring.

First we need a common starting point. I’m going to make a baseline assumption which IMO independent of any belief system holds a universal truth that being – God is absolutely perfect, pure, without error or evil. Hopefully that’s fair to say. If you or anyone disagrees in this “universal truth” regarding God that’s completely fine but before going further I just want to see if we can establish some common baseline. Because the answer I will try to give is dependant on this understanding. If not than I’m not sure if I can help make the distinction clear, and I guess that’s O.K. too.

[newfly]

thanks again for the answer and the discussion rimrock. it is not confusing, i simply do not agree. i guess i will have to leave the final decision on this matter up to God, but i do not believe that He is ethnocentric as to church. you have to be ethnocentric to get to the place that sees that distinction. i can not accept that because it will ultimately manifest itself in a divisive and exclusive policy, no matter how hard we try to avoid that. that has been the center of many discussions here. it is the center of what has brought about some of the very angry comments that we have seen here, in this very small sample of the world. anyway, no personal critisism intended, we just can not find a center when that divides us. but again, we can all find peace in the fact that we can discuss it but in the end God will decide it.

[rimrock]

Thanks to you as well. Disagreeing is of course absolutely fine. I find it a blessing that we can enter into an exploration of what is our faith, how that is expressed, how it relates to God in this and any other thread. Disagreement can happen without division that’s in part the beauty of healthy discussion. I know this has helped me work thru some of the matter of faith and I have gleaned so much from others. It says a lot when we can do it without the slightest hint of division it’s a testimony of God’s Spirit working within everyone here…to me that’s exciting stuff :grin:. A walk with God in many ways is a journey and one of discovery; it takes more than one perception to help one another along the way. Blessing to you newfly and truly to all who gave of their time to one another here.

[newfly]

very nicely said my friend. i could not sum it up any better so i will not try.

i did want to add to your thanks to everyone here as well as in several other threads for being generous enough to participate and for being patient enough to listen.