Twin outboard control question

[SilverFly]

As I already posted on the SaltyDogs, I hope to finally finish my 17.5' epoxy/plywood V-hull this summer.

New Dog in the works (http://www.ifish.net/forum/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=1156890&an=0&page=3#1156 890)

My dilemma is that when I originally designed the boat (over 10 years ago) I intended to power it with twin 25-30hp outboards using a center console, or cuddy cabin setup. I have since decided that I want to go with a simple tiller control setup using a main 50-60hp and kicker arrangement. The problem is I am doubtful the transom will accomodate this setup, since I went with an unusual "double-width" outboard well.

If I place the main motor centered on the keel, I don't think there will be enough room for the kicker on either side of the main. Also, since the stern transom panels are angled and set 3' back from the well transom, an external kicker bracket really isn't an option either.

So, if I can't get away with using a main/kicker combo, I'm left with the original plan of using a matched set of twins (an idea I still like). Unfortunately, I have never heard of twin motors being used under tiller only control.

So here are my questions:

1) Can the main motor be offset from the centerline of a boat safely, and if so how much before significant control problems arise?

2) Is it possible to link twin motors for tiller only steering and throttle control?

If either of these are not viable options, then I will probably go with a center console arrangement (not that that's a bad thing :wink:).

Thanks in advance.

[EZLoader]

I liked your cad drawings of your boat. What software do you use?

Here's a Tolman Skiff with an offset main motor so a dive door could be placed off the transom. It apparently doesn't have too many problems except a little cavitation on hard Starboard turns.
http://www.fishyfish.com/bobbruce/img/bb_rear_dock.jpg

[SilverFly]

EZLoader,

THANKS! That pretty much answers that question!

I realize every boat is different but my main worry was that it might make the boat a bit "squirrley". If this were an issue I would also think it would be exacerbated by a boat with a flat bottom at the transom (as the Tolman Skiff appears to have).

Thanks for the comments on my "CAD" drawings. Actually I just took some key dimensions off my original pencil drawings and used Paintbrush to model the basic lines. I have Photoshop but actually prefer PB sometimes for it's simplicity.

Beautiful boat BTW, is it yours?

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[EZLoader]

Silverfly, the Jumbo Tolman skiff in the photo isn't mine. It was built by a couple of brothers in California. There is a whole community of Tolman Skiff builder/owners up all over the U.S.. There are 3 basic sized models (Standard, Wide body and Jumbo). I am considering building one of these. I will pm you with some links to some good Tolman sites.

The Jumbo in the photo has a 12 degree deadrise at the transom and 18 degrees at midship. It's bottom isn't flat at all. That's what make this boat so good in the rough water.

[SilverFly]

EZLoader,

Thanks for the Tolman links. Great looking boats. Actually, I was suprised at the similarities to my boat. The main differences are Tolman's have more freeboard and don't bring the chines up to the shearline as in mine. Otherwise, the chine beam at the transom is the same at 5' (std), the side flare and deadrise at the transom also are very close. They also have similar shearlines, although the Tolman's are even more pronounced than mine.

Getting back to my motor dilemma, here's a pic of what the transom will look like (right side up) with the cover panel installed on the well:

http://www.ifish.net/gallery/data/500/FullTransom.jpg

[ondarvr]

If you were going to use a 50HP 4 stroke tiller, you could just troll with it, it should go slow enough for most types of fishing.

[StickFish]

Or add a troll plate to it if you need to go slower.

As far as controlling dual outboards from one tiller - I asked on the eye boat site and there is a military one and one manufactured in South America, but he said neither are commercially available

[SilverFly]

Ondarvr,

Going with a single four-stroke, is tempting. My main concern isn't trolling speed, it's having a backup motor to get home. I can't bring myself to trust a single motor, - even a "brand-spanky" new one.

Stickfish,

Thanks for checking. I didn't think twin-tiller was a realistic option, but had to ask.

There's a good chance I can get away with an offset main and kicker in the well, but it just doesn't sound right. So I'm starting to lean towards the original plan for twins. While center consoles have their drawbacks, I like the simplicity of the arrangement and the load balancing.

So here's a layout I would appreciate getting critiqued by you center console guys:

http://www.ifish.net/gallery/data/500/CenterConsole.JPG

[StickFish]

The hull are on the side of the motor wells where you wanted to put fuel once. Can you build shelving into it so that it is accessable from the cockpit (for lack of a proper boat term) for sliding tackel storage. Like for tackel trays and the likes??

Its funny you mention to dual on a tiller - I swear in 83 that our guide at Campbell River had dual 25 mercs on his Whaler and they were tiller controled - I have no pictures and many brain cells have died since then. That was why I had to look - looks like a fun project.

Since this is a salt boat are you considering an arch for radar and antenna mounting and rocket launchers? For VHF on the Ocean you want those antennas up as high as you can get them, but also keep them away from crew and passengers so you don't radiate them with RF energy.

[SilverFly]

Stickfish,

The hull bulkheads on either side of the outboard well are a bit narrow and angular for gas tanks. I suppose I could have custom tanks built, but that would go against the purpose of having bouyancy back there to counteract the weight of the motors.

Storage is a possibitity though. I can cut access hatches into the transom for storage compartments. That would be a great spot for tackle, tools, sea-anchors etc...

I'm not planning on installing radar, but VHF and GPS will be for sure. I like the idea of rocket launchers, but not sure how I can make them work for my fly rods (I'll have conventional rigs too).

Man, I would love to see a pic of that whaler!

Thanks.

[StickFish]

I think you are right about the boyancy and putting fuel back there - better to have the fuel somewhere else - storage lockers there would be cool. I'm thinking of doing something like that to a live well on my Lund that I don't use except for tackle boxes.

I sure wish I could remember how he did that - I wonder if he just used a tie bar and manually synked the engines. I like the center console idea better than tiller control IMO, plus then you'll be able to use standard controls for the dual motors.

Remember to think about where those cables will run before you enclose the sides and floor.

Can't wait to see it done which ever way you go

[ondarvr]

Silverfly

I have a 19' CC with 200HP Evinrude and 8HP kicker on it (fiberglass bay boat). My boat is great for casting (fly or bait), but not great for most other things. It's hard to get out of the weather (wind, rain, sun) even with a bimini top, there's not much storage or room to get around and the console is always in the way. Trolling can be a pain with no real good place to sit and not much room behind the console. I paid very little for this boat new, and it is a very good boat, but CC's don't seem to be that well suited to NW style fishing.

I know I'll get slammed by all the CC lovers now.

I also have a shorter tiller sled with much more usable space than my CC, but I only use it in fresh water. An open tiller boat can be nasty in bad weather too, but at least you have lots of deck space. Your plans show only about 14' of floor space in the boat, so with a CC there's very little room.
I've owned or used about every style of boat from 6' to 26' and lived on the water most of my life, it just seems the CC has the fewest advantages in most conditions. Now if you are building it as a project, like the looks of a CC and are not that concered about fishing, then there's no problem, it will look great.

I had one boat that I just stowed a small 3hp kicker under a seat as a back up motor. It fit in next to the main motor when needed, even though there wasn't much room.

[Starfish]

I'm not sure that you would have to rule out the idea of mounting a kicker on a trolling motor mount on the very stern of the boat. There are plenty of mounts out there that could accommodate the angle of the outermost transom. The drawback would be that you would need a remote controller (EZ-steer or TR-1) to effectively steer the kicker (or mount a seat up on the back corner in front of the kicker), but it would technically fit there if you decided to go with a single tiller main motor.

[tomictime]

WoW..lot's of interest and HELP for your project / dream..almost reality...

I have seen offset setups, practical, probably run OK..but I gotta say I shake my head when I walk by..and w as nice a boat as you are building..well, kinda like a hood ornament on a Porsche... ???? So go w the two smaller twins. I would suggest that you split the fuel supply and run two seperate hi quality water sep filters. While I have a single and kicker, the T-8 gets it's own Racor and I carry spare/seperate fuel for the kicker. One advantage of the smaller twins would be rope or pull start capability so you can cut a battery, w a big single I would want dual batts. I know the smaller suzy O/B had pull starters even on the elec start models..kinda cool. You got great advice on cable runs. I had a 17' Whaler (Newport hull) w side and fwd decks w the Montauk ctr console. Nice combo as you could sit on sides while trolling - stable boat tho, not sure you should try this. The console, transom and floor rigging tunnel dimensions and rigging required premium red jacket Morse cable, they are capable of tighter bend radii. Like the fixed fwd/aft seating, I had a flip seat on the Whaler. Utilize your space, using those big transom extensions for storage is great idea. Consider a T-Top with launchers on the fwd edge if you plan to fly cast from rear deck to side. IF casting fwd, maybe a few extra flush mount rod holders aft in the aft sponsons to get rods far aft for temp storage. Jim

[SilverFly]

Thanks for the comments TT. Yep, too bad Ifish wasn't around for advice when I started drawing this boat up in the early 90's. While I probably wouldn't mess with the hull shape, she's got enough beam to justify an extra foot or two of length, and I would have done a transom more like an Arima.

I know CC's can be a pain and aren't the best suited for NW fishing, but my main concern is safety in rough water, and I think packing the passengers and load near the center of the boat is the safest option. Also, I haven't totally ruled out an external kicker bracket. The thing is, I just don't like the idea of the kicker hanging off a corner of the stern like that.

Based on the lastest input, I modified the CC layout by moving the whole console/passenger unit forward a bit so the console is mounted to the raised deck. This gives a few more square feet in back where it's needed:

http://www.ifish.net/gallery/data/500/CenterConsoleRev2.JPG

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[Starfish]

I like the new design with the helm a little farther forward. Much better room at the stern. Of course now you could even consider going all the way to a walk-through windshield design...

[ondarvr]

Check out bluewave boats.com, they make a bunch of CCs, I have the 19' classic. The 17' tunnel is about the same space and layout you as your plans, but in fiberglass.

[SilverFly]

Thanks ondarvr, I checked them out which was helpful.

I posted a couple of new CC's versions on the Salty Dog thread I have going.

I would appreciate further input/critiques;

Future Dog in the works. (http://www.ifish.net/forum/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=1176090&page=0&vc=1&PHPS ESSID=#Post1176090)

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