Organized Religion ?s [Archive]

Dullhook

03-13-2006, 05:24 PM

EastCreek:

These are excellent questions that make plenty of sense for anyone to ask! :applause:

I don't believe in placing judgement on any other faiths and wouldn't even attempt to speak about their beliefs. There are many different viewpoints even within the Christian denominations on heaven and hell. For example the Catholic faith believes in Purgatory as a place to cleanse the soul from venial sin, where as the conservative Protestant faith that I belong to does not. For that reason I'll only try to answer your first question according to my own interpretations and beliefs. The other questions are better left for someone else. :flowered:

Christianity - does the faith or the scripture say that if you don't accept Jesus as your savior, that you are hellbound?

I'm going to answer this question entirely based upon scripture from the Bible which is the word of God. My personal views are the same.

John 3:31..." Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."

John.3:16,18...."For God so loved the world that he gave His only Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life...He who believes in Him is not condemned; he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God."

Acts: 4-12....."Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."

We believe in the Holy Bible as inerrant, EastCreek, and the true word of God.........D.H.

newfly

03-13-2006, 05:30 PM

man, some great questions. i think, and this is just my opinion, that the questions deserve people's opinions and thoughts, not scripture. that is kind of like justifying the rules of american baseball by reading the american baseball rule book isn't it?

BJS

03-13-2006, 06:58 PM

:yeahthat:

:applause: :applause:

100% agree. :smash: Great point. And discuss the subject don't argue with the people. Its all opinion anyway but ya should respect any cat asking questions not dancin' around them with bible quotes. :cheers:

FireCat

03-13-2006, 07:46 PM

Eastcreek...Just to put this stright my friend when you say "Organized Religion" that makes me very uncomfortable. not toward you my friend, but just so you know there will be many who are from "organized religion" who will be saying LORD LORD didnt we speek in your name, cast out demons, do many good works. And the Lord said "depart from me for I never knew you". Anyone who lays a guilt trip on you by saying your going to hell out of a very arrogant way is doing more harm than good. First of all let me ask you "something, why wouldnt you want to become follower of our Lord?. Remember His ways is so very easy, He has nothing but love for you. He came to this earth to die a very brutal death, and if you were the only person alive on earth , he would of done it for you!.
You see Eastcreek Jesus is the only way of salvation because he is the one who can pay our sin penalty. No other religion teaches the depth or seriousness of sin and its consequences. No other religion offers the infinite payment of sin that only Jesus Christ can provide. No other "religious founder" was God who became man, the only way a infinite debt could be paid. because you see Jesus had to be God so that he could pay our debt. And inturn Jesus had to be man so he could die. Think of it a while...a perfect God, a God that cannot alow one little white lie in his sight...who sent his perfect son who was with out the slightest sin, meanning he never even told a little white lie, God allowed his Son to die a very brutal death so you can have a way for everlasting life and live in eterenity for ever, this my friend is called "Salvation" and is only avvilable only through faith in Jesus Christ. Because "Salvation" is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved!. Now withsaying this you must understand that there is a Satan he is the God of this world, he has blinded the minds of those who dont believe, so they are unable to see the wonderful light of the good news that is shinning upon them, they dont understand the message about the Glory of Christ, who is the exact likeness of God. Satan plants lies in false teachers and leaders heads, And he always disguises himself as good. That is why there is only one road to the kingdom of God, Satan has many broad roads, that all lead to distruction. So lets not talk about hell or final judgement or church, lets talk about YOU! and that is YOU are on Gods mind as of this moment, think about it, the one who made this wonderfull universe, the one that spoke in exsistance this earth we live on, who formed every tree, made every lake and stream, He right now it thinking about YOU. So lets not think about Hell, death or final Judgment, lets think about life, happyness, freedom, no more guilt.
For this is what Our Lord wants you to have, and the neatest thing is you cant buy it, you cant earn it and you dont have to follow a set of rules, go to a holyplace every year, shave your head ware a cartian set of clothes to obtain it, its is free to you Eastcreek . Now why wouldnt anyone want that. The holyspirit brought you into this chaple tonight that is why I know our God is thinking about you. Hell is not what is on our Lords mind Eastcreek, your life from here on out is what is very much important to him. To put it plainly "Organized Religion" sucks! my friend You can be saved by Grace with no "Buts" attached, the name above the church door is meaningless.
And I might add NEWFLY was saying something about American baseball and justifying it by the American baseball rule book, Nice analiogy but we as Christians do have a set of rules, ten of them to be exact and you know what all of us has broke most of them, Even if we didnt break them by the act we break them by just the thought. so you see this is a game that cant be won, by the rules. Because we have struck out before we get up to the plate.
That is why ALL WE HAVE TO DO IS ADMIT WE HAVE BROKEN THE RULES, and we are not worthy to participate, then believe that Our Lord followed all the rules to prefection and stood in our place as one who struck out, so that we might win!....Come and be on a winning team Eastcreek!....Lord bless

Bartman

03-13-2006, 08:22 PM

Eastcreek, according to my faith there is no "one true religion".in my opinion the monotheistic view point of either you do it our way, or your going to eternal punishment is more about control of the masses than developing a relationship with the devine. radical islam and the far right christian movements are prime examples of how negative and destructive the idea of "one true religion" can be.
Bartman

EastCreek

03-14-2006, 10:00 AM

Thanks for the thoughtful respones to the questions. All are appreciated. Apologies if "Organized Religion" wasn't the best heading for the post. I wasn't sure how to phrase it, and my questions weren't solely directed at Christianity.

Bartman's response was more of what of what I was getting at. I'm assuming that this is mostly or entirel an Christian based forum. If that's so, are there those of you that have a Christian faith, but don't necessarily...
man, it's hard to put it in words.

When I have gone to church, I have sought out an environment where I feel comfortable. I have enjoyed meaningful sermons and have enjoyed the atmosphere and positiveness. I have also felt pressure, and things that I struggle to agree with...all in the same place. I try not to get entirely driven away, and to take what I want / need from it.

I do not go to church, or have a spiritual component to my life for fear of going to hell or not being saved. However, over and over through my life I have given a shot at churches and church groups...and eventually find myself frustrated and disagreeing with what seems to be part of the belief system for the faith.

Are there those of you that had to find a balance in your faith? Taking what works for you, and keeping that simple?

As for the baseball analogy: Her's the curve-ball question that tries to relate to my previous questions...

"Would the Dalia Lama not be granted eternal life for his lack of accaptance of Jesus as his savior? "

- from some, I'm hearing yes.

(More)

"Would the Dalia Lama consider the local Christian pastor unfit for eternal life or Nirvana?"

- my understanding is no.

"Which religions tend to have a monotheistic view..with rigid boundaries?" or "Is it all dependant upon the individual believer and practicer of that faith (maybe the specific sect of a religion) to determine?"

-sort of the far right, far left, and inbetween...

EC

Wreckless

03-14-2006, 11:21 AM

No apology needed. These are questions people deal with every day. Thanks for having the guts to bring them up.

I do agree with a previous post that religious extremists of ANY religion drive more people away than they "recruit" or "convert" or "save" or what ever they are trying to do.
I'm a Christian, raised going to Sunday school/church, but I've felt the feelings of "pressure" (judgement) from many churches, so I don't attend much anymore. I went to a great church years ago, because of the Pastor. Pastor Bill is a great, honest, humble man that brought me closer to God. He was called to Alaska and the church was never the same. In my way of thinking God loves us all and there are many ways to get on his good side (or bad).

Sorry for the ramblings, There are FAR smarter more educated people on this board that will offer better insight than mine.

:lurk:

Bartman

03-14-2006, 04:15 PM

Eastcreek, I too was once a christian who struggled with parts of the " message". the fact of the matter is that when you get down to the blood and guts of the christian doctrine, the cold hard truth is that christians believe that their going to heaven and all who arent are going to hell, a small percentage of christians do believe that christianity is "a" way to heaven but the vast majority believe that christianity is "the" way to heaven.This is also true for judaism and the islamic faith, its kind of ironic that all three of these faiths have the same origin.
I know many, many kind christians, my brother is a minister,
and to tell you the truth it saddens me that I know in their heart of hearts,when they think of me, their thinking that I'm "going to hell", not because of the life I've led, but because I just didnt believe the "rules" of their club.
if your looking for a spiritual path and christianity isnt meeting your needs, I suggest that you "think outside the cross", there are several spiritual paths out there that will bring you comfort in this life and better prepared for the next.
Bartman

FireCat

03-14-2006, 10:04 PM

Eastcreek...with all do respect to all thoes that have post on this subject, I would like to say I to was at one time looking for some sort of mystic way to live my life, I looked in to Wicca, Mormonizum, Jehovahs witness and a few more, But I came to the realization that I still had a problem, None of these filled the void that I had and that I felt that one day I would stand before some kind of creator. All around me was a order to things, and if there was who or what put this lovely place and universe into exsistance, was it a idea from a man, or was it a being that had a heck of lot more knowledge than any man alive.
Ididnt want to worship the creation or some thought of a religious leaders emagination, I wanted to worship or find the Creator. Ans so through the faith that God gave me I can see why I fell so short being that I am a very sinfull creature, So it stood to reason if God is so perfect, and so loving then him sending his Son to die in my place. so now I can live forever with him. You see many people understand that God is a God of love , but it ends there.
They dont realize God never changes and his Characteristics can never change or be compermised. Now remember this that God is Love, but he is also just.
Gods word is clear, and that is THE WAGES OF SIN IS DEATH. This means that you are seperated from God in this life and also the next life after you die. No mater how much God loves you, he must sentence you to death because you are guilty of breaking his Commandments. Because God cannot use his love to violate his justness. He must always be just and loving. According to his justness you are guilty. This is a perfect Just God that lives where there is not the slightest hint of any sin or wrong doing. Now this is hard to fathom we feel like "I don thave a chance, I want to try another religion, one where it isnt so hard and God isnt so strict, I can feel like I am one with the universe and all that belong to it"...But this is what is so easy that people make so hard, and that is Jesus Christ Gods only son that shared the most perfect domain that can even be thought of in exsistance, Was sent out of Gods love, and came into this ugly sinful, death riddled world to die... for you and for me. Jesus not only alowed himself to be killed in a very ugly death, so you could be forgiven of your sins and also for Gods just requirement to be satisfied, you see before Christ, God always demanded that a unblemished animal sacrifice for the remission of sins. Now after Christ there is no longer any need for that because he became the perfect sacrifice for the sins of the whole world.
Now Eastcreek you are free to act anyway you wish, God could have made you and I a robot who did everything he wanted you to do, but forced love is actually no love at all. God has given you free will so when you accept him you do so on you own choosing. When given the opportunity to act freely people choose their own desires and not the ways of God.
Because you see the one who forgives another is always the one who bears the pain for the wrong which was commited against them. this is what God has done. And to show you how much love he has for you and I God has not only forgiven us but he was also willing to pay the price himself for that forgivness as presented by sending his son Jesus to die a horrible death on the cross.
Jesus said many will come in my name, but they will show you another way. Man can contrive many ways to make himself feel good he can create any kind of religion, or think up many ways to feel good. BUT it will all boil down to one thing and that is when we die where or who will we face, before our final journey. That is something we now can controll and only you can make that desession my friend
you will be in my prayers....Lord Bless

AnglersRental

03-14-2006, 10:55 PM

Ya know - I learned something a while ago.

Until I could think of God in terms that were meaningful to me, I was not truly able to turn my life over to Him. Because my own spiritual freedom encourages me to find a personal understanding of God, I think I have to allow others that same freedom. My concept of God evolves. It changes and grows as I continue to change and grow. And that is pretty darn wonderful because I now sense a God that is as alive as I am. Never did I imagine finding such a source of peace, courage, and wisdom in my life. Today I know that there is a unique purpose to my journey through life. Guess what? I am the only one who can live my life. For me, I need the help of the God that I understand to live it fully. Grounded in that faith, I can hold tight to His will for my life and meet the future He has planned for me with confidence.

When it comes to talking about salvation, I see it being all about a personal relationship with God. I would be surprised if my personal relationship with Him is the same as anyone else here or elsewhere. I see God created us as individuals, each with a different and unique purpose here on this earth. I do accept Christ as my personal Lord and Savior. But considering God created us all different it just does not seem reasonable to me that He would expect us to all believe exactly the same all the time. So I tend to try and focus much more on what He would have me do in my life than what He would have you do in yours. I am much more comfortable sharing my journey to and through faith than telling someone else what their journey should look like.

The organized part? Well I don’t get too involved with the differences in doctrine. But I do enjoy being part of a faith-based community. I found a church where I can feel the Holy Spirit (God) working in the lives of those in the church. I also see that being part of a faith-based community is a kind of team effort. When it comes to doing good thing a group can often accomplish things that an individual cannot. For example - hurricane relief. The members of our church (working as a team) sent a bunch of clothes, food, supplies, etc... to another church in the affected area that (working as a team) distributed them to the right people and places to make a difference. I could never have accomplished much alone.

Anyway, just some random thoughts.

Brad

newfly

03-15-2006, 06:52 AM

brad, some very nice random thoughts. i appreciate (if that is the right word) that you live your life from the inside out. there is a lot of wisdom and a lot of material in what you said for all of us to think about.

thanks for adding it to the discussion.

FireCat

03-15-2006, 09:38 PM

UGLYGREEN...When you say you try to stay focus on what GOD would want you to do...I just wish many Christians, including myself at times, Could be apart of your simple down to earth faith, Organized in the Church is a good thing but trouble is when men want to run things thier way and the simple plan, like you have, is lost in the idea of trying to be popular in the community. You continue on my friend you only have to please one person and that is Christ. And by they way you are walking in his footsteps you are going to hear him say to you on that day "well done thou faithfull servant, now inter in to the joy of the Lord"....Lord Bless you my friend

WyEm

03-20-2006, 04:54 PM

One way to address the question is to apply Pascal's wager.

Blaise Pascal (1623-62) was a French mathematician and philosopher. He developed an argument not so much for the existence of God but for the value of believing in God. He claimed that even if there was no satisfactory evidence for believing God existed it is still better for us to believe in God rather than not. Pascal’s argument is put in the form of a bet (wager). He claims that people have more to lose by not believing in God than believing. If we ‘bet’ on God existing, yet when we die there is no God, we have lost nothing (except maybe a few hours a week at church and prayer meetings). If we ‘bet’ on God not existing, yet when we die there is a God, we will have lost everything (i.e. go to hell). Thus according to Pascal: “Let us weigh the gain and the loss in wagering that God is. Let us estimate these two chances. If you gain, you gain all; if you lose, you lose nothing. Wager, then, without hesitation that He is.”

So, lets apply Pascal's wager to your question of whether there is only one way to God or many ways:

The wager involves two parts:

A. Two possibilities in a comparison between "many ways to God" and "only one way to God."

1. It is possible that there are many ways to God and the Christian is wrong.

2. It is possible that the Christian is right that there exists only one way, and those who believe otherwise are wrong.

B. Now that we have established that there are two choices, what are the implications of each possibility.

1. If the first possibility is correct, then there are many ways to God and the Christian is wrong. However, everyone, Christian and Non-Christian, achieves salvation and everlasting life.

2. This brings us to the second choice. If the Christian is right and the Non-Christian is wrong, it is the difference between heaven and hell.

In other words, if "many ways to God" is true and Christianity is wrong, the Christian doesn't have much to lose. Simply being a good person with good morals and a good heart appears to "do the job" enough to make it to heaven and we will all be there.

However, if Christianity is true and the "many ways to God" is wrong, then the non-Christian has everything to lose. Therefore, wager without hesitation that Christianity is true. What do you possibly have to lose by believing that Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that no person can enter God's presence except through Him. (John 14:6).

Note: I'm NOT advocating that anyone should become a Christian based upon a wager. However, the question and conclusion suggested by Pascal's wager should be thought-provoking. Find out the answers for yourself. If you seek, you will find them.

SKP

03-20-2006, 04:58 PM

WyEm, :applause: :applause: :applause:

SKP :yeahthat:

newfly

03-20-2006, 05:07 PM

it seems to me that the wager begins with a christian bias. for instance, one could say:

****begin example

So, lets apply Pascal's wager to your question of whether there is only one way to God or many ways:

The wager involves two parts:

A. Two possibilities in a comparison between "many ways to God" and "only one way to God."

1. It is possible that there are many ways to God and the Muslim is wrong.

2. It is possible that the Muslim is right that there exists only one way, and those who believe otherwise are wrong.

B. Now that we have established that there are two choices, what are the implications of each possibility.

1. If the first possibility is correct, then there are many ways to God and the Muslim is wrong. However, everyone, Muslim and Non-Muslims, achieves salvation and everlasting life.

2. This brings us to the second choice. If the Muslim is right and the Non-Muslim is wrong, it is the difference between heaven and hell.

In other words, if "many ways to God" is true and the Muslim is wrong, the Muslim doesn't have much to lose. Simply being a good person with good morals and a good heart appears to "do the job" enough to make it to heaven and we will all be there.

******end example

I inserted Muslim only as an example, not as a preferred religion.

the point is clear however. begin with a bias and you end with a biased answer.

the other thing about your post that bothers me is that again, you only talk about personal salvation........about making sure that the christian acts good SO that the christian can go to heaven. this just seems so self oriented. it isn't related to doing what is right because it is right and good, but rather doing what is defined to you as "christian" so that you get a reward in the end. there has to be more to it than that.

garyk

03-20-2006, 05:33 PM

Furthermore, Pascal's wager is based on having a choice.
It's easy to think of many, many situations where the person has no choice.

What about the hundreds of millions that lived prior to Christ? Hundreds of millions made, according to the Bible in God's image, all doomed to eternal damnation?

"Pascal's wager" seems useful for demonstrating betting odds, but pretty flimsy to base spiritual beliefs on.

Bartman

03-20-2006, 06:07 PM

newfly, you beat me to it.you could insert the name of any of the 3 big monotheistic religions into the "equation" and get the same result,muslims say their "right", jews say their "right",christians say their "right" and they all got their scriptures and holy people and faith to back it up.
lets just say " for arguments sake" that the muslims got it right and everybody else is going to hell (FYI, hell is taken from norse mythology,spelled hel,which is the realm where ALL go after this life on their journey to the next life,it was demonized by the church to help destroy the native religions of nothern europe) so that means "heaven" is going to be full of nothing but muslims,now for all the rest of the people who have ever lived this probably wouldnt be much of a "heaven".
Bart

Dullhook

03-20-2006, 07:33 PM

What about the hundreds of millions that lived prior to Christ? Hundreds of millions made, according to the Bible in God's image, all doomed to eternal damnation?

The Bible through the O.T makes numerous references (Rev 6:8; Mt 16:18; and many more) to "Sheol". This is the Hebrew word for Realm of the dead or Netherland. Many interpret that the souls of the good will remain there until judgement day when they will be resurrected and judged by Christ. Those that accept Him will join the second kingdom, the others will live without God (Hades).

It's written in the O.T. in Deuteronomy 32:22...." The Lord will judge His people and have compassion on His servants
When he sees their strength is gone and no one is left, slave or free."

WyEm

03-21-2006, 08:57 AM

The point of Pascal's wager is to make a choice. Not making a choice is choosing that God does not exist and by doing so you risk everything. Research Muslim, Christian, Jewish, etc faiths and decide for yourself which is true. But make an honest search and don't begin with the bias that Christianity is false or you will only "end with a biased answer."

Garyk's question is a good one and I don't know the answer. I doubt any of us can fully answer that question. But, if we let questions stop us from making a choice, then we are choosing not to believe in anything which is the same as choosing to believe that there is no God. Are you prepared to take that risk?

Christianity has never been about "acting good" or "doing good" to get to heaven. Those attempts will always fail. Jesus (upon whom Christianity is based) repeatedly condemned such attempts, calling them "hypocrits." True Christianity is concerned with "why" we are doing things, rather than "what" we are doing. The "why" is personal because only you know your motivations. Someone smarter than me once said that the Christian church "is not a country club for saints, but a hospital for sinners."

SKP

03-21-2006, 09:24 AM

What about the hundreds of millions that lived prior to Christ? Hundreds of millions made, according to the Bible in God's image, all doomed to eternal damnation?

It's the simple belief in the same Messiah that will give you eternal life. The Old Testament people believed in a forth coming Messiah. The New Testament people and forward believe the Messiah that came, died, and rose again as was told in Prophecy, such as Isaiah 53. According to the Bible, those that believe will have eternal life. It is irrelevant if you were in the Old Testament times, New Testament times, or today. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. The Messiah is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

How did Moses get saved? He believed in the coming Messiah.
How did the theif on the cross get saved? He believed in the hanging Messiah.
How did Saul get saved? He believed in the risen Messiah.
How did I get saved? I believed in the risen Messiah.

You see, it is simple faith in God. It doesn't matter if you believe before or after Christ rose. The theif on the cross believed before Christ arose, and it is proven by God's own words he is with God in paradise, as He said.

In the beginning God.........

SKP

Ethical hunter

03-21-2006, 02:25 PM

My Grandmother is a devote Catholic and believes that all of her grandchildren - none of which are catholics - are all going straight to hell. She tells us on a regular basis. We tend to just laugh at her. Her response is generally to get up and leave the room.

We all love grandma and most of us practice some form of christian faith or another. But, grandma is fairly hard core when it comes to being Catholic. One of my Uncles is a Pastor at a non denominational christian church. Grandma refused to go to his wedding because it was not Catholic.

EH :cheers:

Bartman

03-21-2006, 04:06 PM

It's the simple belief in the same Messiah that will give you eternal life. The Old Testament people believed in a forth coming Messiah. The New Testament people and forward believe the Messiah that came, died, and rose again as was told in Prophecy, such as Isaiah 53. According to the Bible, those that believe will have eternal life. It is irrelevant if you were in the Old Testament times, New Testament times, or today. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. The Messiah is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

The vast majority of the worlds people in old testament times had never even heard of the messiah and even if they had, what significance would it have had? none, the messiah was someone who was coming to help the jews,so if they were anybody but a jew why would it have even mattered??
a lot of christians are in store for a BIG surprise in the next life,when they get there and realize,"UH OH,it isnt just christians here". IMHO,christians who take on the narrow view of " we're the only ones going too heaven",actually do harm to their souls and that it will be painfully clear in the next life.
Bart

garyk

03-21-2006, 11:07 PM

Thanks EH for posting that.

From the above posts, a variety of Christian viewpoints about who's going to heaven:

“Example: Christianity - does the faith or the scripture say that if you don't accept Jesus as your savior, that you are hellbound? YES”

“No mater how much God loves you, he must sentence you to death because you are guilty of breaking his Commandments. Because God cannot use his love to violate his justness.”

“However, if Christianity is true and the "many ways to God" is wrong, then the non-Christian has everything to lose. Therefore, wager without hesitation that Christianity is true. What do you possibly have to lose by believing that Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that no person can enter God's presence except through Him. (John 14:6). “

The Bible through the O.T makes numerous references (Rev 6:8; Mt 16:18; and many more) to "Sheol". This is the Hebrew word for Realm of the dead or Netherland. Many interpret that the souls of the good will remain there until judgement day when they will be resurrected and judged by Christ.

“You see, it is simple faith in God. It doesn't matter if you believe before or after Christ rose.”

My Grandmother is a devote Catholic and believes that all of her grandchildren - none of which are catholics - are all going straight to hell. ...most of us practice some form of christian faith or another. But, grandma is fairly hard core when it comes to being Catholic

This is what I always find interesting...

To a basic question, various versions of the Christian faith give their answer. The Gospel is parsed and interpreted according to many viewpoints, some in conflict with each other.

Yet, each insists they - and only they - are correct! (And I've not even added my answer from my Christian faith's viewpoint)

WyEm

03-23-2006, 10:00 AM

I agree with Bartman in one respect, we are going to be very surprised who we see in heaven. Missing will be many people whom we were sure would make it and present will be many people whom we had no idea.

The reason there are different denominations within Christianity is because the Bible allows us to have differences of opinions in the NON-ESSENTIAL aspects of Christianity. For example, what day of the week should be worship on, Saturday or Sunday? Should we baptized by sprinkling or baptized by immersion? It is in these issues, and others like them, that denominations are formed. It does not mean that one denomination contradicts another. It means that though they agree in the ESSENTIAL doctrines of Christianity, they differ in some nonessentials.

Unfortunately, the other reason for different denomations is the failure of Christians to live according to the will of God. The truth is that we are all sinners and we do not see things eye to eye. Denominational differences are also due to our shortsightedness and lack of love. But, the good thing is that God loves us so much that He puts up with our failures. Neither salvation nor damnation is dependent upon our differences. Our salvation is based on our relationship with Jesus Christ.

That relationship with Jesus is the critical issue. There are many different religions in the world. And, they do not all teach the same thing. In fact, many of them contradict each other. So, they can't all be true and it cannot be said that each is a different path to God.

If Jesus is who He said He was, God in flesh, then whatever He says is authoritative and true. He said that He was the way the truth in the life and that nobody comes to the Father except through Him (John 14:6). Right there, we see that any other way, according to Jesus, is not true.

Christianity bases its truth and its doctrine on the word of God, the Bible. In the word of God, Jesus claims to be the only way. Since He performed many miracles, raised people from the dead, commanded a storm to be still and it obeyed, healed diseases, and rose from the dead Himself, then we are forced to face the reality of His words. Is what He said true or not? Either Jesus is a liar, a lunatic, or He is Lord. No one else in history, except Jesus, has fulfilled detailed prophecies, performed many miracles before eyewitnesses, and risen from the dead. Jesus is unique.

For those of us who are Christians, we have trusted what Christ has said. We believe in what He said and did. Like it or not, Jesus is the one who said He was the only way. It is not the Christians who are being "narrow-minded." It is Jesus. Therefore, to say that other religions can be true means that Jesus is false. To say that there are other ways to God, also means that Jesus is false.

This is what it comes down to. Either Jesus is who He said He was and what He said is true, or He is false. This is a choice you must make: To trust what He said or reject His words.

garyk

03-23-2006, 12:07 PM

SKP

03-23-2006, 12:47 PM

Quote by garyk:
(And I've not even added my answer from my Christian faith's viewpoint)

garyk, we would like to hear your viewpoint.

Thank you,
SKP

SKP

03-23-2006, 01:28 PM

Bartman, so true:

a lot of christians are in store for a BIG surprise in the next life,when they get there and realize,"UH OH,it isnt just christians here". IMHO,christians who take on the narrow view of " we're the only ones going too heaven",actually do harm to their souls and that it will be painfully clear in the next life.

Reminds me of the song, Jesus Loves the Little Children we all sang in Sunday School as a kid.

Jesus loves the little children,
All the children of the world.
Red and yellow, black and white,
They are precious in His sight.
Jesus loves the little children of the world.

Read Psalm 145:13-21 in God's Word:

[13] Thy kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and thy dominion endureth throughout all generations.
[14] The LORD upholdeth all that fall, and raiseth up all those that be bowed down.
[15] The eyes of all wait upon thee; and thou givest them their meat in due season.
[16] Thou openest thine hand, and satisfiest the desire of every living thing.
[17] The LORD is righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works.
[18] The LORD is nigh unto all them that call upon him, to all that call upon him in truth.
[19] He will fulfil the desire of them that fear him: he also will hear their cry, and will save them.
[20] The LORD preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy.
[21] My mouth shall speak the praise of the LORD: and let all flesh bless his holy name for ever and ever.

God's Word says in Romans 10:9-13:

[9] That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
[10] For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
[11] For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
[12] For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
[13] For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

It does not matter if we are a Jew, Christian, Muslim, Presbyterian, Athiest, wear red clothing, wear brown clothing, have blue eyes, have brown eyes, have black hair, have blond hair, have no hair, fat, skinny, work at McDonald's, work in Iraq - all can go to heaven, so true Bartman.

It's so simple to have faith in Jesus. We don't have to give $10,000.00 to the Baptists, Buddhists, Bill Gates, or Nike. We don't have to do anything. It was done on the cross when He said it was finished. Just simply trust Jesus according to the Bible. It has nothing to do with any organized religion. It has all to do with God. We can only go to God's heaven God's way.

It's so simple. Some organized religions want to make it so complex. But God's own words made it so simple even a small child can do this.

SKP

WyEm

03-23-2006, 04:09 PM

There are many different religions in the world. And, they do not all teach the same thing. In fact, many of them contradict each other. So, they can't all be true and it cannot be said that each is a different path to God.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but that statement can be made about the various Christian sects. Just replace 'religions' with 'denominations'. It would therefore seem that quite a few erstwhile Christians are on the wrong path - not to mention everyone else in the world.

Is that scenario reasonable, I don't think so.

Does that follow with Jesus's teachings? Not at all.

Garyk, you are correct about some "Christian sects" and "erstwhile Christians." However, the "reasonableness" of the narrow path is not for us to judge and Jesus did speak on this very subject in what is for me some of the most terrifying passages of the Bible:

Matthew 7:13-14. "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."

Matthew 7:21-23. "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'"

Bartman

03-23-2006, 04:46 PM

That relationship with Jesus is the critical issue. There are many different religions in the world. And, they do not all teach the same thing. In fact, many of them contradict each other. So, they can't all be true and it cannot be said that each is a different path to God.

If Jesus is who He said He was, God in flesh, then whatever He says is authoritative and true. He said that He was the way the truth in the life and that nobody comes to the Father except through Him (John 14:6). Right there, we see that any other way, according to Jesus, is not true.

Christianity bases its truth and its doctrine on the word of God, the Bible. In the word of God, Jesus claims to be the only way. Since He performed many miracles, raised people from the dead, commanded a storm to be still and it obeyed, healed diseases, and rose from the dead Himself, then we are forced to face the reality of His words. Is what He said true or not? Either Jesus is a liar, a lunatic, or He is Lord. No one else in history, except Jesus, has fulfilled detailed prophecies, performed many miracles before eyewitnesses, and risen from the dead. Jesus is unique.

For those of us who are Christians, we have trusted what Christ has said. We believe in what He said and did. Like it or not, Jesus is the one who said He was the only way. It is not the Christians who are being "narrow-minded." It is Jesus. Therefore, to say that other religions can be true means that Jesus is false. To say that there are other ways to God, also means that Jesus is false.

This is what it comes down to. Either Jesus is who He said He was and what He said is true, or He is false. This is a choice you must make: To trust what He said or reject His words.

Like I said, most christians believe that either your a christian or you going to hell.
I'd like to tell a little story that this attitude reminds me of.
King Radbod of Frisia who died in 719 c.e., had converted to christianity and was preparing to be baptised. just before the ceremony of baptism was to be performed, King Radbod asked the clergy what had befallen those of his ancestors who had died in heathendom. the missionary replied that Radbods pagan foerfathers were no doubt roasting in hell, to which King Radbod replied, "then I would rather live there with my ancestors than go to heaven with a parcel of beggars." the baptism was cancelled, the churches were burned,the priests were killed, and frisia remained free.
though this is a very extreme reaction,it never fails to remind me of the feelings caused by many christians attitude.
I wish christians would use the bible as a spiritual guide,not as the infalible word of god that says "jesus said we're the only ones going to heaven".
jesus didnt say it men of the christian church,100's of years after he lived said it.
fact= there are NO original hebrew copies of the new testament.
fact= of the 5000ish greek manuscripts of the new testament, no two are identical.
fact= the story of the prostitute being brought to jesus that the people wanted to stone does not even appear in the older manuscripts,it appears in the newer manuscripts.
and you can go on and on and on.
it never fails to amaze me that christians on one hand can believe whole heartedly that man is "evil" from birth and that we all need saving by there god and only there god,and yet can not see the hand of "evil" man at work in this book that he's been re-writing for 2000 years.
IMHO many christians perpetuate the same principles and beliefs that jesus tried to teach the jews that were wrong.
example= we're the only ones giong to heaven (ironic isnt it).
Bart

WyEm

03-24-2006, 09:48 AM

Bart,

Clearly, you've made your choice. At least you not sitting on the fence. I respect that.

As for the accuracy of the Bible, if you really want to debate that perhaps we should start a new post. I would love the debate because your assumptions based upon your "facts" are flawed, if not your "facts" themselves. For example, the 5000ish greek New Testament manuscripts you mention are not complete versions of the NT. They contain fragments of various books of the NT. So papyrus that contains the portions book of Acts will not be identical to papyrus that contains the portions of Revelations. That is just the tip of ice berg.

Let me pose an analogy to think about. If the original US Constitution held in the Smithsonian were destroyed by fire, would that make every copy of the US Constitution, even ones printed after the destruction, untrustworthy? Would quotes from the Constitution found in books and case opinions now be suspect as well?

garyk

03-24-2006, 11:07 AM

The Vatican weighed in on the qeustion of literalism last fall with this suprising statement:

Catholic Church no longer swears by truth of the Bible

By Ruth Gledhill, Religion Correspondent

The hierarchy of the Roman Catholic Church has published a teaching document instructing the faithful that some parts of the Bible are not actually true.

The Catholic bishops of England, Wales and Scotland are warning their five million worshippers, as well as any others drawn to the study of scripture, that they should not expect “total accuracy” from the Bible.

“We should not expect to find in Scripture full scientific accuracy or complete historical precision,” they say in The Gift of Scripture.

The document is timely, coming as it does amid the rise of the religious Right, in particular in the US.

Some Christians want a literal interpretation of the story of creation, as told in Genesis, taught alongside Darwin’s theory of evolution in schools, believing “intelligent design” to be an equally plausible theory of how the world began.

But the first 11 chapters of Genesis, in which two different and at times conflicting stories of creation are told, are among those that this country’s Catholic bishops insist cannot be “historical”. At most, they say, they may contain “historical traces”.

The document shows how far the Catholic Church has come since the 17th century, when Galileo was condemned as a heretic for flouting a near-universal belief in the divine inspiration of the Bible by advocating the Copernican view of the solar system. Only a century ago, Pope Pius X condemned Modernist Catholic scholars who adapted historical-critical methods of analysing ancient literature to the Bible.

In the document, the bishops acknowledge their debt to biblical scholars. They say the Bible must be approached in the knowledge that it is “God’s word expressed in human language” and that proper acknowledgement should be given both to the word of God and its human dimensions.

They say the Church must offer the gospel in ways “appropriate to changing times, intelligible and attractive to our contemporaries”.

The Bible is true in passages relating to human salvation, they say, but continue: “We should not expect total accuracy from the Bible in other, secular matters.”

They go on to condemn fundamentalism for its “intransigent intolerance” and to warn of “significant dangers” involved in a fundamentalist approach.

“Such an approach is dangerous, for example, when people of one nation or group see in the Bible a mandate for their own superiority, and even consider themselves permitted by the Bible to use violence against others.”

Of the notorious anti-Jewish curse in Matthew 27:25, “His blood be on us and on our children”, a passage used to justify centuries of anti-Semitism, the bishops say these and other words must never be used again as a pretext to treat Jewish people with contempt. Describing this passage as an example of dramatic exaggeration, the bishops say they have had “tragic consequences” in encouraging hatred and persecution. “The attitudes and language of first-century quarrels between Jews and Jewish Christians should never again be emulated in relations between Jews and Christians.”

As examples of passages not to be taken literally, the bishops cite the early chapters of Genesis, comparing them with early creation legends from other cultures, especially from the ancient East. The bishops say it is clear that the primary purpose of these chapters was to provide religious teaching and that they could not be described as historical writing.

Similarly, they refute the apocalyptic prophecies of Revelation, the last book of the Christian Bible, in which the writer describes the work of the risen Jesus, the death of the Beast and the wedding feast of Christ the Lamb.

The bishops say: “Such symbolic language must be respected for what it is, and is not to be interpreted literally. We should not expect to discover in this book details about the end of the world, about how many will be saved and about when the end will come.”

rimrock

03-24-2006, 01:49 PM

As for the salvation position all one can truly say is apart from faith in Jesus Christ there is no reason to believe one would be saved according to Scripture. The key is “no reason to believe”. God can offer salvation to any however His sees fit; He is not bound or obligated to any particular fashion in the least. He is God alone! Christians must tread VERY carefully when talking about any particular person’s eternal destination for salvation is God’s ground. Only God is the author of the Book of Life; He and only He records the names. The Christian should never in their human perceptive state who is and who is not in heaven – this is not our call, this is not our place. It’s only God’s alone. Now yes God could offer salvation to any outside the Gospel that’s His purgative, BUT there is no particular reason to believe He will offer salvation to any about from faith in Jesus Christ. There is absolutely no warrant to believe differently and that’s a mighty big gamble with eternity hanging in the balance. :depressed:

BTW garyk there in nothing in your quote above which relates to any of the essentials of Christianity, the Genesis account and the symbolism contained in Revelation have long been secondary issues. For example in orthodox Christianity there have been those who hold to what’s call new earth creationism and old earth creationism. You can read about the differences if you like; but in the end the same essential fundamental point remains – God created it all. The various methods are debated (secondary) but each have the same conclusion God is the author of creation (the essential).

wishin

03-24-2006, 02:02 PM

A fine post rimrock! And, as with all of your posts - a LOT to ponder and pray about.

garyk - the article above is not a statement from "the Vatican". It is from a group of Bishops in the UK. Very, different kettle of fish (hey, it's Friday!). I hope that Happybrew will let us know if it is official Church teaching. He is a smart guy when it comes to Catholic teaching. And, as rimrock stated - "You can read about the differences if you like; but in the end the same essential fundamental point remains – God created it all.". Well put.

wishin

Musicman

03-24-2006, 04:41 PM

I've read this thread for many days and wanted to refute what some have said and agree withe others but didn't know how to put it into words...Rimrocks post put it into the context that speak the words I could not find....
"God can offer salvation to any however His sees fit; He is not bound or obligated to any particular fashion in the least. He is God alone! Christians must tread VERY carefully when talking about any particular person’s eternal destination for salvation is God’s ground. Only God is the author of the Book of Life; He and only He records the names. The Christian should never in their human perceptive state who is and who is not in heaven – this is not our call, this is not our place. It’s only God’s alone. "

Unquote......We as believers in Jesus Christ must not judge who, "Only God is the author of the Book of Life; He and only He records the names." We like to believe we know who is going to heaven but only Jesus knows for sure...many will be told, "depart from me".....as a christian, I can't imagine a more horrible sting to my soul.

This is most interested and thought provoking thread...it raises questions that I think are ones that need asking.Thanks, I look forward to more.

PS. "He is the author and finisher of our faith."

Bartman

03-24-2006, 05:54 PM

As for the accuracy of the Bible, if you really want to debate that perhaps we should start a new post. I would love the debate because your assumptions based upon your "facts" are flawed, if not your "facts" themselves. For example, the 5000ish greek New Testament manuscripts you mention are not complete versions of the NT. They contain fragments of various books of the NT. So papyrus that contains the portions book of Acts will not be identical to papyrus that contains the portions of Revelations. That is just the tip of ice berg.

Let me pose an analogy to think about. If the original US Constitution held in the Smithsonian were destroyed by fire, would that make every copy of the US Constitution, even ones printed after the destruction, untrustworthy? Would quotes from the Constitution found in books and case opinions now be suspect as well?

If the original constitution were to be destroyed, the copys remaining would all be the same.
The point I was making about no original hebrew manuscripts is that we have no way of knowing just how much the bible has been changed over the years. It has been proven that scribes have added too and taken away from the texts that they were scribing.
of course manuscripts containing "acts" and manuscripts containing "revelations" are not going to be the same, but when the manuscripts are of the same "book" , no two are identical.
The point that I'm making is already realized by the christians who take the bible for what it is, a book with divine truths,not a magical document where every thee,thow and ridiculously outdated "rule" is the "undeniable word of god"
how people can believe that a "law" such as- " if I **** my neihbors daughter,I have too buy her to make everything alright",could have ever been the word of god is beyond me.
Jesus's message was about LOVE and a way to live a good life.I feel sorry for the ones who cant see through all the twisted junk thats been put in as his message since then.
Bart

newfly

03-24-2006, 05:57 PM

well, i am in agreement that this is a wonderful conversation. it is kind of like..point, counter point.

the one thing that occurs to me as i read through this all one more time is this. if you believe, i mean really believe, then that belief itself creates a certain blindness. if you do not beleive, or like me are not sure what you beleive, that also creates a certain blindness. (i do not mean blindness in a critical way, simply a literal observation). those areas that we do not "see" overlap and we are not able to see what the other perspective sees. i hope to close that gap, at least for me and threads like this help.

i still have trouble seeing God as some do. bartmans example is an excellent one, i am not sure that wyem is able to understand the magnitude of the message behind that story. it is huge and has many questions that i hope will be addressed.

newfly

03-24-2006, 06:04 PM

Jesus's message was about LOVE and a way to live a good life.I feel sorry for the ones who cant see through all the twisted junk thats been put in as his message since then.
Bart

yeah. nice. i agree. earlier, someone here said:

[guote]
Christianity has never been about "acting good" or "doing good" to get to heaven.

[/quote]

i had not meant that it was done to "go to heaven". that was not what i had meant in an earlier phrase and it concerns me that the talk is so wieghted about going to heaven. i do however, believe very strongly, that christianity and God are very much about acting good and doing good. but doing that because it is the way, the path that is right, not because of some reward.

WyEm

03-27-2006, 10:19 AM

I actually do understand the magnitude of questions behind Bartman's story. IMHO a great many atrocities have been committed by missionaries and clergy in the name of Christiandom, but a great amount of good has been done too. I was merely addressing Bartman's counter-points. I also fully admit that I don't know the answer of what happens to the millions of people throughout history who never heard about Christ.

Its okay, and in fact healthy, to have questions about God and eternity. I have a great many myself and don't pretend to know all the answers or even to know who God really is. I do not have the "childlike" faith that many others do. Before I committed myself to Christ 3 years ago, I did ALOT of research into the accuracy of the Bible and the accuracy of Jesus. I still have a great many questions, but faith does play a central role. I also believe that until someone is ready to believe, nothing anyone can say will change their opinions. I am living proof of that.

WyEm.

"Test everything. Hold on to the good." 2 Thessalonians 5:21

rimrock

03-27-2006, 12:30 PM

I do feel I should provide a point of clarity as I have received some good questions. Again apart from faith in Jesus Christ there is no reason to believe God will offer salvation, but He is God and has the right to act however He desires. But the Christian wouldn’t want to become so “wise” as to embrace that all roads will lead to heaven for humanity. This attitude of relativism will make one popular with people but also will not be of benefit to anyone nor give God the glory He deserves. In a way this kind of thinking would make Jesus’ sacrifice trivial since it wasn’t really necessary if every belief and path is true.

So where does our discernment fall? There is a difference between the destination of the individual and the general teachings of particular beliefs. No one can know nor should anyone dare say with certainty ANY person’s eternal destination no matter what they appeared to have believed in life. But that is much different than discerning what falls within and what teaching falls outside the hope of the Gospel – there is no other reason to believe God will guarantee salvation any other way apart from faith in Jesus Christ.

The problem is most often Christians get this backwards. They will judge an individuals eternal destination but will not wish to discern between religious beliefs as not to offend. Even in a recent thread here all stated Judas is no doubt condemned. :blush: I would agree in the Bible there is no warrant to believe otherwise but it is of great offense to God to take His place as judge over any individual. In similar fashion we have no reason to believe King Solomon ever returned to God and he built the first great temple in Jerusalem, but we dare not state with certainty his eternal destination for God is the only author of the Book of Life.

There is only one Gospel, only one known path to heaven. And there is only one reason to believe the Gospel message is true, only one reason to trust in the Message over any other. This is a God-pleasing area of discernment, of questioning, of discussion but only if done “with gentleness and respect.”

Sweet Melissa

03-27-2006, 12:52 PM

I think you make some really good points here, rimrock. The question of our eternal salvation has come up recently in my own family. I had a cousin my age who professed a belief in Christ when he was very young, but walked away from "organized religion" as a teenager and adult. He tragically died two years ago in a drowning incident. We grieved, not only because we lost someone we loved, but also because of the questions his death left unanswered.

We are all just wretched sinners saved by grace. Praise God for His unfailing love and kindness to those of us unworthy to be called His servants.

D-tangle

03-27-2006, 01:54 PM

1. The Bible is God's only word to lead us to Christ and therefore to eternal life. God's Spirit must show you this, not your own opinion.
2. If you are looking for a Church that believes God's word, but that is opposed to Organized religion, you can come to our little country Church. We are very dis-organized :-)...and loving it.

Bartman

03-27-2006, 04:44 PM

there is no other reason to believe God will guarantee salvation any other way apart from faith in Jesus Christ.

There is only one Gospel, only one known path to heaven.

Sorry Rimrock, but I must respectfully disagree. for the majority of mankind these statements are untruths,for many people there are other "gospels", and for many people there are different paths to "heaven".as far as salvation goes,it doesnt even fit into the equation for mine and many other faiths,salvation comes from the belief of original sin, and many people dont believe that we're all doomed because of some mythical first mans sin.each person is judged by his or her actions,we honor or dishonor the Gods and ancestors by the way we live our lives.I personally know of another way to what christians call heaven and claim exclusive membership,live the best life you can,do right by your fellow man,especially do right by your family and friends,and if you do wrong in this life do all in your power to make it right and then move on.

Havamal: stazas 76-77.
Cattle die;kinsmen die; you likewise must die;
But the voice of honor never dies for him who has earned a good name.
Cattle die;kinsmen die; you must likewise die;
One thing I know that never dies: a dead mans reputation.

Bart

rimrock

03-27-2006, 07:07 PM

I do realize there are many other “gospels.” You are quite correct. In fact if the world went by a popular vote Buddhism would be the clear winner; Christianity would be down the list a bit. There was one part you left off from my quote above which is the hinge as it were that being “…there is only one reason to believe the Gospel message is true, only one reason to trust in the Message over any other.”
I know Christianity hangs entirely on this One Thing! :smash: Ironically it’s not talked about much even amongst Christians but the hinge of ALL Christian belief hangs on the Resurrection of Jesus Christ. If Jesus truly was and is raised from the dead than all He said is true. His claim as God is validated. No one else has ever taken up their own life, been given a resurrected body…; He is completely unique. Buddha is still in the grave; Muhammad we know is buried in Mecca and so on. In no small measure this is why other beliefs attacked the Resurrection, since they know themselves if such a thing is true – then all Christianity is true. If it were up to me I would have designed a more “open” means of salvation, but who am I to tell the One who not only laid down His own life but much more importantly was able to take it back up again. I couldn’t bring myself back from the dead? So my opinion is no better than any other persons, only one opinion matters the One who proved He was God.

This really is the starting point and I’m not going to hit you with a thousand quotes or the "10 step program" for believing in the Resurrection :laugh:, but it is everything. If Jesus is still in the tomb than Christianity is the greatest tragedy to befall humanity and our hope is completely meaningless. If Jesus is alive then He is the great Savior and the only known means to salvation by His claim, not mine. I wish there was a different way I really do :depressed: but there is no reason to believe apart from faith in Jesus Christ there lays salvation. It’s the Resurrection that holds it all together and without it likewise it would all fall apart.

FireCat

03-27-2006, 07:38 PM

Rimrock my friend great post...I totaly agree and I would also like to add that Most religions--but not Christianity--are based on human performance. If one's performance is good enough, one will go to heaven or another desirable place after the earthly life, and will have a good life on earth. If performance is substandard, the person will be rejected by the higher being and go to hell or some other unpleasant place. Christianity, by contrast, teaches that no person is good enough to be accepted into God’s kingdom and, therefore, we can be accepted by God only by God’s grace and mercy, which is possible through Jesus Christ.

Picture a court case. The prosecuting attorney contends that you are guilty of wrongdoing, making you unworthy of God's kingdom. You can plead guilty or innocent. Those who follow a performance-based religion are pleading innocent, indicating to the judge that they have lived a good enough life—based on the rules of their religion—to be worthy of entrance into heaven. Those who choose to trust Christ are pleading guilty, admitting that they are not worthy of God's kingdom based on their own "goodness." Thus Christians, pleading guilty, are asking for mercy; but religious persons, pleading innocent, are asking for judgment. The Judge judges those who plead innocent based on their deeds. Every one of them are pronounced guilty--because "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" (Rom 3:23)--and given the death penalty. For the Christians, however, who have pleaded guilty and asked for mercy through Jesus Christ, the Judge acknowledges that they committed deeds worthy of death, but sets them free. The Christians are guilty of wrongdoing and deserve the penalty, just as the others. But the Judge sets them free because someone else--the Judge's own Son--sat in the electric chair on their behalf. The Judge's Son took the death penalty for them. Although they are guilty, they receive mercy and are forgiven. In fact, the charges are completely erased from their record, having been nailed to the cross of Jesus Christ:

Col 2:13,14 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, 14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross....This is so easy but yet People want to make their own way.. a away which leads to destruction...Lord bless

Bartman

03-27-2006, 07:55 PM

Rimrock, you know that I totally respect your commitment to your faith and I'm 100% sure that christianity is all the better for having you,you do your God much honor in the way you live and share your faith.
Bart

newfly

03-28-2006, 12:30 PM

firecat, i want to comment on your example. my point, as i am well aware is an esoteric one and in that sense, maybe not important to others, but i think that you miss the point or the perpesctive from which i talk about doing good or doing the right thing.

your example deals with a court room, where the judgement is based on the outcome of a persons actions. i agree that sense of "performance" is not right. i do not speak of being judged by that. in fact, i do not speak of being judged at all. when judgement comes, it comes. it is as simple as that. you can not run from life out of fear of what might happen. however, back to the point, when i speak of performance, i am speaking about what is inside of you and what you are trying to do. in other words, i am speaking about what is in your heart. the outcome is a very poor way to judge that. a judge and jury can only measure the outcome, no man can know what is truly in another mans heart. but God certainly can. God can certainly judge us based on how we live our lives. i beleive that He will too. but you can not live your life in a certain way becuase you know that judgement will come. God understands that. you are only left to live your life from the inside out. doing what is right because it is the right thing to do. even then, i agree with you, we will make mistakes. we have to learn to correct our own mistakes and we have to learn what the right thing really means. that is the path that is available to man and that is what God has given us.

rimrock

03-28-2006, 01:37 PM

It’s always a blessing to have such an open kind-hearted discussion with you Bart. I have always respected that about you and greatly appreciate your involvement in the Chapel.

BJS

03-28-2006, 02:16 PM

FireCat

03-28-2006, 06:43 PM

Newfly...I think I am getting what you are saying, but I am having a had time following what you just said...clear as mud huh!...I am taking some new pain medication for my darn hip, So I may need to reread what you just typed more closely. But for as Judgement goes Final Judgment is the sentence that will be passed on our actions at the last day (Matt. 25; Rom. 14:10,) . The judge is Jesus Christ, as mediator. All judgment is committed to him (Acts 17:31;Rev. 1:7). "It pertains to him as mediator to complete and publicly manifest the salvation of his people and the overthrow of his enemies, together with the glorious righteousness of his work in both respects." The persons to be judged are, (1) the whole race of Adam without a single exception (Matt. 25:31-46; Rev. 20:11-15); and (2) the fallen angels (2 Pet. 2:4; Jude 6).

The rule of judgment is the standard of God's law as revealed to men, the heathen by the law as written on their hearts (Luke 12:47, 48; Rom. 2:12-16); the Jew who "sinned in the law shall be judged by the law" (Rom. 2:12); the Christian enjoying the light of revelation, by the will of God as made known to him (Matt. 11:20-24; John 3:19). Then the secrets of all hearts will be brought to light (1 Cor. 4:5; Luke 8:17; 12:2, 3) to vindicate the justice of the sentence pronounced. The time of the judgment will be after the resurrection (Heb. 9:27; Acts 17: 31). As the Scriptures represent the final judgment "as certain [Eccl. 11:9], universal [2 Cor. 5:10], righteous [Rom. 2:5], decisive [1 Cor. 15:52], and eternal as to its consequences [Heb. 6:2]. Now with saying that Because we are born in sin and therefore cannot live up to God's righteous standards, condemnation hangs over our heads like the sword of a executioner (II Pet. 2:3; Rom. 1:18;). God himself is the one who condemns (Job 10:2; Jer. 42:18; John 12:48). His condemnation is based on his justice, and such condemnation is deserved . Condemnation comes to the wicked and unrepentant (Matt. 12:41-42; Luke 11:31-32;) and results in eternal punishment (Matt. 23:33), but no OT believer who trusted in God (Ps. 34:22) or NT believer who trusts in Christ (John 3:18; 5:24) will be condemned. Jesus came to save rather than to condemn (John 3:17), and he frees us from final condemnation (Rom. 8:1-2).

Conscience may cause us to condemn ourselves (I John 3:19-21), but no one can justly condemn the righteous if God is on his side (Isa. 50:9; Titus 2:7-8). In fact, the Lord prevents or reverses unfair condemnation by our enemies (Pss. 37:33; 79:11;). Needless to say, it is the height of arrogance and stupidity for sinful people to condemn a just and omnipotent God (Job 34:17, 29; 40:8).

Divine judgment is God's method of displaying his mercy as well as his wrath toward individuals and nations (Exod. 6:6, 7:4; II Cor. 5:10). As God is the one who condemns, so also he is the true and only Judge (Gen. 18:25; Ps. 82:1;) an office and function shared by the Father( John 8:50; Rom. 3:6) and the Son (Acts 10:42) . Rewarding or positive judgment relates to the believer's stewardship of his talents and gifts and is therefore characterized by divine compassion (Matt. 25:14-23). Although we experience judgment initially in this life, all of us are judged ultimately after death ( Rom. 2:16; Rev. 20:12-13) at the judgment seat of God (Rom. 14:10) or Christ (II Cor. 5:10). Self-judgment, another manifestation of the same activity, is brought about by rebellion and willfulness (Rom. 13:2).

It is not only human beings who are judged, however, God also judges other gods, real or imagined (Exod. 12:12;) and angels as well (II Pet. 2:4; Jude 6). The devil himself is not exempt from such judgment (I Tim. 3:6). And although in the final analysis God is the only judge, he has chosen to allow us to participate with Christ in judging the world (Matt. 19:28; Rev. 20:4), including the angels (I Cor. 6:3).
So nomater what we think or how we treat each other it will all come under Gods Judgement in the end, each of us , nomater how smart, great, religious, or wealthy we think we are we will stand before him, many I hear today have said "BOY I WILL HAVE SOMETHING TO TELL HIM!" But the sad thing is..they will be tottaly speachless....Lord Bless

AnglersRental

03-28-2006, 08:40 PM

Firecat, just wanted to say i'm liking the paragraphs!

Brad

FireCat

03-28-2006, 08:57 PM

Uglygreen..I cant take all the credit, It helps when your wife is home laid up with a busted ankle...I just dont like the faces she makes when I have her to proof read it...
but thanks anyway Dude!....Lord Bless
http://www.ifish.net/gallery/data/500/PeaceMan.gif

WyEm

03-29-2006, 08:36 AM

WildHawg made an excellent reminder in his post "Re: What is Angler's Chapel About." According to Jennie: "This forum is NOT about theology, which can lead to division."

I suspect we strayed from that line a bit in this discussion thread. Its good to have questions about faith and its good to hear opposing viewpoints because it should make us go back and investigate our beliefs to determine their validity. But, it all too easily strays into divisiveness. So, I apologize for my posts contributing to divisiveness or dissent.

John Fischer from the Purpose Drive Life Devotionals wrote: "The immensity of God’s mercy is not displayed in what He did for the world, or for someone else. It is not displayed in someone else’s story about how low they were before Christ picked them up (of course, never as low as we would ever go—heaven forbid!). Nor is it discovered through some theological understanding or study of the many nuances of His grace. No, the immensity of God’s mercy is revealed finally—and only—in the incredible realization that, lo and behold, it found out the worst of the lot. God’s mercy looked down from heaven and found out me!"

WyEm.

DAB

04-01-2006, 05:26 PM

Rimrock.
I agree with what you said right down to the last jot and titel about the resurrection of our Lord Jesus the Christ.
If there was no resurrection then we should be pitied above all men since our faith and hope would be in VAIN.
DAB

in 'em

04-03-2006, 04:02 PM

Amen to the last few posts, couldn't agree more.
Back to the original post...I'm still trying to grasp this thought, and probably never will, but imagine for a moment that you are in God's shoes...
Out of love, you have created something to be like you, from which you desire nothing more than love in return. In order to receive "true" love from your creation, you cannot control their actions, thoughts, or desires, correct? So you have to give them free will…the choice to choose to love you or not.
In time, your creation has become so corrupted, they are not living sinless lives, and therefore are not able to show you "true" love (sin is present...and guilt). Knowing this, and being the loving God you are, you want to create a way to make them blameless in your sight...to give your creation a chance to one day live with you. They cannot do it on their own, so you send your SON (why? because who is closer and means more than ones own son?).
You send your own son, your own flesh, to be with your creation and show them the way. Your son lives perfectly, showing your creation what is good, true and right. He then dies the most horrible death imaginable. For your creation's sake! Your son has given them a way to be made right with God, to obtain eternal life, to be forgiven of the sin we ALL carry.
Now let me ask you, would you want to welcome those of your creation into eternal life with you if they did not believe your son died for them? If you sacrifice something for someone and they shoot you down, are you still going to accept them? They have no excuse...Rom 1:19ff.
Just as sin entered the world through one man, Adam, sin was taken away through belief in one man, Jesus. Without that belief, why would we be rewarded?

Yes, this is a Christian point of view...and you may want to know why one should believe this is how it is. Well, the Bible is the most studied book ever written, standing the test of time and many other trials. There is proof that the Bible we hold true today contains word for word accuracy with the original manuscripts. The Bible contains many detailed cross references and is written by many authors from many different backgrounds and time frames, yet it ties together miraculously in story and theme. The Bible contains over 1000 prophecies, over 600 of which have been proven true with NONE EVER PROVEN FALSE! Those that remain deal with Christ's second coming and are yet to be fulfilled.
Perhaps the best proof of the truth found in the Bible is that ITS COUNCIL IS SOUND, ITS TEACHINGS ARE WISE AND ITS MESSAGE OF SALVATION MEETS EVERY NEED FROM NOW TO ETERNITY.
So much has been proven true and none false, yet the world continually tries to find fault in its pages, twist its literal meaning and deny it as authoritative and innerrant. Why, because we live in a fallin sinful world.

feisty's wife

04-04-2006, 05:43 AM

Eastcreek, I sure understand your question's, I personally was very involved with Churchianity, till I was run out for asking the wrong question's, they will do that, ya know...I tried their way for 20 year's, all smoke and mirror's...God is NOT going to let you burn forever, all you will get here is a bunch of Churchianity, I have tried, again, you will only get the rule book quoted to you...have fun.:(:(:(

in 'em

04-04-2006, 08:40 AM

feisty,
Look to God, not Men...we are only sinful flesh and bones. Men will disappoint every time, but God is always the same now and forever.
If a Church ran you out for asking the wrong questions, I don't believe they were biblically or God based. Don't turn your back because of one Church or experience. Stereotypes are easy to assume.
Find the right church and you'll know it. Don't give up so easily...besides, don't forget the long term effects of this...eternal reward or eternal punishment. This isn't a game, it's life or death. Hard to grasp the infinite thought.
I know you are still searching and still instinctively feel Christianity may be the way...otherwise you would not still be reading the chapel and posts like this. Don't give an other false hope unless you know in your heart you are right. Read Romans 1:19...this is how I know what you feel inside.
God bless feisty...and you can ask any question you want here on the chapel.

Bartman

04-04-2006, 11:49 AM

There is proof that the Bible we hold true today contains word for word accuracy with the original manuscripts. ,

sorry in'em,but I've gotta respectfully disagree with ya.
how can it be said that there is proof to the word for word accuracy from the original manuscripts,when NO original hebrew manuscripts even exist. and of the 5000ish greek manuscripts no 2 are excactly the same.quite the contary to your statement,its been proven that over the many years that things have been left out and added.one example of this is the story of the prostitute being brought to jesus that the crowd wanted to stone,this story does not appear in the older manuscripts,it suddenly appears in newer manuscripts.
Bart

FireCat

04-04-2006, 08:06 PM

Scholars believe that in essence we have the original works of
the ancient Greek authors, so why wouldn't one believe we have
copies of the writings of the New Testament authors? God inspired or "breathed out" through human writers and their
personalities the entire original NT so that it contained no errors of
any kind. II Timothy 3:16. However, when men made copies of the NT they
sometimes mistook one Greek letter for another letter. Occasionally
they wrote a letter, word, or phrase down twice. At times a copier
inadvertently left out a letter, word, or phrase. Sometimes he
reversed the order of letters or words. Also a few scribes
intentionally changed the text to their liking. So today, the Greek
manuscripts we have of the NT are not all exactly the same. They do
have some minor variations or differences. Where differences appear
in Biblical manuscripts very intelligent people who are fluent in a
number of the appropriate languages study these ancient documents
and apply the science of textual criticism in an effort to determine
which text is the closest to the original text.

"The Interlinear Bible" by Jay P. Green contains the entire NT in
Greek and English on 229 pages. The Greek text he uses is commonly
called the Received Text. In an appendix on just 8 pages this book
lists almost every possible variation to the Greek Received Text
which could be of any importance at all. None of the possible
differences in the Greek affects or changes any teaching or doctrine
in the NT.

WyEm

04-05-2006, 11:09 AM

Which is why most Bible translations expressly note that John 7:53-8:11 was not contained in the earliest manuscripts, leaving it to the reader to decide for themselves what weight to give the story. Of course, John 7:53-8:11 does not effect any doctrine of the Bible, nor does it contradict any teaching of the OT or NT.

in 'em

04-05-2006, 04:00 PM

Sorry, I should rephrase...much of the Bible has been found to hold incredible accuracy over the years...

My initial thought was the Dead Sea Scrolls being found not too many years ago, which match the Bible of today accurately. The Dead Sea Scrolls themselves are proof enough for me not to doubt what we ought not!

So many critics...why?

no faith? So much os proven true, nothing ever found false, yet people try so hard to find fault in the WORD OF GOD!!!

If he were to make it plain to us, prove everything entirely true (more than it already is), there would be no need for faith in HIM, true love could not be freely expressed.

We are all born, we all sin, we all wonder where we've come from and where we're going after this life. We have all seen the Creation, and we know instinctively there is more...it is where we turn for those answers that ultimately decides our fate. I choose the LORD, the one without fault, there is too much proof to deny, and just enough to have unconditional and true faith in eternal life in heaven with Him.

newfly

04-05-2006, 05:36 PM

Sorry, I should rephrase...much of the Bible has been found to hold incredible accuracy over the years...

My initial thought was the Dead Sea Scrolls being found not too many years ago, which match the Bible of today accurately. The Dead Sea Scrolls themselves are proof enough for me not to doubt what we ought not!

So many critics...why?

no faith? So much os proven true, nothing ever found false, yet people try so hard to find fault in the WORD OF GOD!!!

please slow down and read what people have to say before you make statements like that. that really short changes the questions and the other people that are involved. you can not trivialize this like that and do it any justice.

i have not seen people here questioning the word of God.

but one question is whether or not it is the word of God or is it the word of man. when i see obvious contradictions between what people stand for in what they call the "word of God" and what i believe God stands for, it does cause me to question. not God, but the perception that has developed over many years. it troubles me and i seek to find an answers. to ask me to blindly accept philosphies and views that i know in my heart do not represent God, becuase it can be interpreted in the bible to mean what you want it to mean will always cause me to ask questions. if i asked you to believe or to accept something that you did not beleive was right, i would hope that you would question me.

Bartman

04-05-2006, 06:22 PM

Sorry, I should rephrase...much of the Bible has been found to hold incredible accuracy over the years...

much but not all,which is my point excactly,the bible holds some divine truths(about the hebrew gods),but is far from being the infaluable word of god.

I also have to call you on the dead sea scrolls statement.its just not accurate to state that the dead sea scrolls match the the bible that people have today.many of the writings are not even in todays bible, some removed by the early church because they didnt toe the line of what the CHURCHES doctrine was.

it isnt that so many people are trying to find fault with the word of god,its more along the line of many people knowing that the bible isnt the infaluable word of god.I myself know the bible to hold some truths pertaining to A god,but it is a far cry from being a mistake free,every word is gods word,world wide manual.

so many critics...why?? because many people dont buy the myth that the god of the hebrews,created all mankind for the sole purpose of worshipping him,and because he loved us so much,he is gonna give us the slim chance of spending the rest of eternity with him(you guessed it,worshipping him)
never mind the fact that according to his plan you were born into a non-christian family,you better get it right or you gonna burn in hell FOREVER!!!.

sorry, but thats not the kind of god I want to honor,and I have no problem seeing what it is about the literalist christian crowd that turns many people off.
Bart

MetalHead

04-05-2006, 08:08 PM

Do any of you believe that you can have a belief in Jesus and a love of God without participating in the contridictions of organized religion?

FireCat

04-05-2006, 10:19 PM

(you better get it right or you gonna burn in hell FOREVER!!!.)

I struggle with these issues a little bit as well, but Scripture tells us very clearly that God's ways are higher than our ways and His thoughts are higher than our thoughts (Isaiah 55:9). God is perfect and His decisions are perfect. I don't like the thought of people being tormented eternally in the Lake of Fire, but I believe that God is righteous, merciful, and just, and I am willing to let Him execute justice in any way He sees fit. I can understand and empathize with the question of "Is this really justice?," but this argument does not prove that sinners will be totally annihilated in hell. God's view of justice is not necessarily the same as our human view of justice!...Lord Bless

Bartman

04-06-2006, 07:31 PM

The Gospels
The notion that the four "gospels that made the cut" to be included in the official New Testament were written by men named Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John does not go back to early Christian times. The titles "According to Matthew," etc., were not added until late in the second century. Thus, although Papias ca. 140 CE ('Common Era') knows all the gospels but has only heard of Matthew and Mark, Justin Martyr (ca. 150 CE) knows of none of the four supposed authors. It is only in 180 CE, with Irenæus of Lyons, that we learn who wrote the four "canonical" gospels and discover that there are exactly four of them because there are four quarters of the earth and four universal winds. Thus, unless one supposes the argument of Irenæus to be other than ridiculous, we come to the conclusion that the gospels are of unknown origin and authorship, and there is no good reason to suppose they are eye-witness accounts of a man named Jesus of Nazareth. At a minimum, this forces us to examine the gospels to see if their contents are even compatible with the notion that they were written by eye-witnesses. We cannot even assume that each of the gospels had but one author or redactor.

It is clear that the gospels of Matthew and Luke could not possibly have been written by an eye-witness of the tales they tell. Both writers plagiarize d (largely word-for-word) up to 90% of the gospel of Mark, to which they add sayings of Jesus e and would-be historical details. Ignoring the fact that Matthew and Luke contradict each other in such critical details as the genealogy of Jesus - and thus cannot both be correct - we must ask why real eye-witnesses would have to plagiarize the entire ham-hocks-and-potatoes of the story, contenting themselves with adding merely a little gravy, salt, and pepper. A real eye-witness would have begun with a verse reading, "Now, boys and girls, I'm gonna tell you the story of Jesus the Messiah the way it really happened..." The story would be a unique creation. It is significant that it is only these two gospels that purport to tell anything of Jesus' birth, childhood, or ancestry. Both can be dismissed as unreliable without further cause. We can know nothing of Jesus' childhood or origin!

Mark
But what about the gospel of Mark, the oldest surviving gospel? Attaining essentially its final form probably as late as 90 CE but containing core material dating possibly as early as 70 CE, it omits, as we have seen, almost the entire traditional biography of Jesus, beginning the story with John the Baptist giving Jesus a bath, and ending - in the oldest manuscripts - with women running frightened from the empty tomb. (The alleged postresurrection appearances reported in the last twelve verses of Mark are not found in the earliest manuscripts, even though they are still printed in most modern bibles as though they were an "authentic" part of Mark's gospel.)
(taken from an article written by,Frank Zindler)

The bible is not the unchanging,unerring,infaluable word of god that many christians profess.and one of its most dangerous effects on mankind is the "one true religion" falsehood.
Bart

FireCat

04-06-2006, 09:24 PM

("The bible is not the unchanging,unerring,infaluable word of god that many christians profess.and one of its most dangerous effects on mankind is the "one true religion" falsehood")
Bart

[/quote]
Yes, Christianity is the one true religion. That may sound awfully dogmatic and narrow-minded, but the simple truth is that Christianity is the only true religion. Jesus said that He alone was the way to the Father (John 14:6), that He alone revealed the Father (Matt. 11:27; Luke 10:22). Christians do not go around saying Christianity is the only way because they are arrogant, narrow-minded, stupid, and judgmental. They do so because they believe what Jesus said. They believe in Jesus, who claimed to be God (John 8:58; Exodus 3:14), who forgave sins (Mark 2:5; Luke 5:20; 7:48), and who rose from the dead (Luke 24:24-29; John 2:19f). Jesus said that He was the only way. Jesus is unique. He was either a loonatic, or He was a liar, or He was lord. But since everyone agrees that Jesus was a good man, how then could He be both good and crazy, or good and a liar? He had to be telling the truth. He is the only way.
Christianity is not just a religion; it is a relationship with God. It is a trusting in Jesus and what He did on the cross (1 Cor. 15:1-4), not on what you can do for yourself (Ephesians 2:8-9).
Buddha didn't rise from the dead, nor did Confucius or Zoroaster. Muhammad didn't fulfill detailed prophecy. Alexander the Great didn't raise the dead or heal the sick. And though there is far less reliable information written about them, they are believed in.
The scripture is right when it says in 1 Pet. 2:7-8, "This precious value, then, is for you who believe. But for those who disbelieve, 'The stone which the builders rejected, this became the very corner stone,' and, 'A stone of stumbling and a rock of offense'; for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed." (NASB).

The Mathematical Odds of Jesus Fulfilling Prophecy

"The following probabilities are taken from Peter Stoner in Science Speaks (Moody Press, 1963) to show that coincidence is ruled out by the science of probability. Stoner says that by using the modern science of probability in reference to eight prophecies, ‘we find that the chance that any man might have lived down to the present time and fulfilled all eight prophecies is 1 in 1017." That would be 1 in 100,000,000,000,000,000. In order to help us comprehend this staggering probability, Stoner illustrates it by supposing that "we take 1017 silver dollars and lay them on the face of Texas. They will cover all of the state two feet deep. Now mark one of these silver dollars and stir the whole mass thoroughly, all over the state. Blindfold a man and tell him that he can travel as far as he wishes, but he must pick up one silver dollar and say that this is the right one. What chance would he have of getting the right one? Just the same chance that the prophets would have had of writing these eight prophecies and having them all come true in any one man."
Stoner considers 48 prophecies and says, "we find the chance that any one man fulfilled all 48 prophecies to be 1 in 10157, or 1 in 10,00,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00 0,000, 000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00 0 000,000,000."....Just a few facts to ponder...Lord Bless

Bartman

04-06-2006, 09:56 PM

[quote Yes, Christianity is the one true religion. That may sound awfully dogmatic and narrow-minded,

[/quote]

no christianity is not "the one true religion",just like islam is not and judaism is not.
you are right,it IS awfully dogmatic and narrow minded.

here's at least one BIG "prophecy" that jesus made that didnt come true. the one regarding his return.
mat 24:34.
assuredly, I say to you,this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.

I dont know about you,but thats an awful BIG one,and awful "telling" about the validity of the rest.not only did he not come back in that generation,but he hasnt came back in any of the generations since,(every generation since,that was POSITIVE that he was coming back in their generation).
Bart

FireCat

04-06-2006, 10:49 PM

,(every generation since,that was POSITIVE that he was coming back in their generation).
Bart

[/quote]
Now why does " this generation" in Matthew 24:34 (see also Mark 13:30; Luke 21:32), not refer to Christ' s contemporaries? Because the governing referent to " this generation" is " all these things." Since Jesus is giving an extended prophetic discourse of future events, one must first determine the nature of " all these things" prophesied in verses 4 through 31 to know what generation Christ is referencing. Since " all these things" did not take place in the first century then the generation that Christ speaks of must be future. Christ is saying that the generation that sees " all these things" occur will not cease to exist until all the events of the future tribulation are fulfilled. Frankly, this is both a literal interpretation and one that was not fulfilled in the first century. Christ is not ultimately speaking to His contemporaries, but to the generation to whom the signs of Matthew 24 will become evident.
What Jesus is saying is that the generation that sees the beginning of the end, also sees its end. When the signs come, they will proceed quickly; they will not drag on for many generations. It will happen within a generation The tradition reflected in Revelation shows that the consummation comes very quickly once it comes. . . . As such it is the issue of the signs that controls the passage's force, making this view likely. If this view is correct, Jesus says that when the signs of the beginning of the end come, then the end will come relatively quickly, within a generation.[9]
...I like to try to keep things simple, Hopefully this is simple to understand...Lord Bless

feisty's wife

04-07-2006, 06:03 AM

Bartman, good luck, I have discovered that when it come's to Churchianity, you will NEVER get anywhere with those of this particular persuasion, the Bible is infallable[so they say], do not even try, you are [at time's] talking to closed mind's. The truth is, Gawd is not going to send you to hell to burn forever....do a Google on Astral Beleif System Territorie's, the truth is there...we are in school, and part of the game is that we forget we are in school on the first day of 'class'...it get's better.

newfly

04-07-2006, 08:22 AM

but in this, i think, patience and much introspection is justified. i understand what you said feisty. and bartman, we share many questions. but firecat, in my opnion, explained his position very well. he said:

Christians do not go around saying Christianity is the only way because they are arrogant, narrow-minded, stupid, and judgmental. They do so because they believe what Jesus said.

think about that. i understand and honestly respect that faith in ones belief. i do not always agree, as i think you do not, with all of those "traditional" beliefs but i respect their right to believe and i admire that committment to spiritual belief.

this is the "ying and yang" of faith. to have it, on the one hand, is good. it allows you to commit your life and to become at one place with your values. on the other hand, it can close you to thought that is not consistant with the standards that you have been given. it is the very essence of the depth of the problem with humanity and its inability to be tolerant of other religions. to have that faith can lead to an absolute intolerance of other religions. it can lead to disagreements that people refuse to even try to close. there lies the yang, i believe. i say can, because i do not believe that it has to be that way or is that way with all men. i think that you can have faith in your religious beliefs, but still allow others to have the same, even when it is in opposition to yours. and i believe that the pursuit of the truth about our spiritual self can be seen as a value of the highest priority in all religions. we actually see this in some people here on this ng.

at any rate, i think that firecats post was great and that he once again did a great job of describing his feelings for the discussion.

rimrock

04-07-2006, 08:45 AM

in 'em

04-07-2006, 08:56 AM

Here is the concern I find in many who argue against the INFALLIBLE and INNERRANT Word of God, Christianity, and belief in Jesus Christ and what he did for US ALL on the cross...

Many state that certain things were left out of the Bible through translation, certain things changed, a chance for error, and can twist meanings (just as some Christians do at times) to mean what you want.

However, (and I have had doubts, still do and always will because I'm human) I personally can't grasp the thought of turning from something has has never been proven false even remotely. People like to try, but noone can be certain of its falseness...why? Because it IS truth! So much is proven true and nothing false, why do folks keep trying so hard to prove something is wrong when it will never be done.

That's my concern...I don't want any of you to be turned away from the truth.

newfly

04-07-2006, 09:30 AM

in 'em, the whole conceptual idea however, of telling people that they have to accept the bible as the truth on faith alone........well, can you see how that alone will turn some people away? if you don't want people to be turned away from your truth, don't you think that you have to be willing to discuss that truth? that alone could cause people to doubt your truth. if you take a step back and follow the george carlin gig, that is: hey, there is this invisible man in the sky who watches over all of us who has given us 10 rules to live by that if you violate any, you will be cast in hell and burned.........but he loves you all very much. a little hard to swallow on face value alone.

it isn't so much trying to prove the bible wrong anyway. it is much more that many of us that were not raised on reading the bible; or that many of us have seen the many contradictions that have been spoken of here and need to explore that word before we can understand it and consequently before we can be asked to believe it. can you expect any less of us? can you ask any less of us? my perception (which is probaly wrong-i understand that) is that you are saying that because others have said that they can not prove that the bible is wrong, then we must accept it on faith. part of what you said strikes me as fear on your part to explore the words that make up the bible. otherwise why does it bother you so to see questions asked? if the bible is the truth, will in not prevail in the discussions in the end? i guess i do have faith, i have faith that in the end the truth prevails because it is the truth, not because someone discourages the subject to even be discussed.

please, i am not trying to question your faith, but rather your expectations of others.

Bartman

04-07-2006, 12:53 PM

Christians do not go around saying Christianity is the only way because they are arrogant, narrow-minded, stupid, and judgmental. They do so because they believe what Jesus said.

.

I agree with you on this,most feel that they are "saving" souls,but they also have to realize that to many people their "message" is offensive,"you are broken and doomed to hell,the only way you can have happiness is by believing what I believe, what you believe is wrong,you and all the people you love are going to spend all eternity suffering".
I mean come on!! cant people see whats wrong with this message?? cant they see through the OBVIOUS "message" of the church that has NOTHING to do with what jesus was teaching.for hundreds upon hundreds of years the christian church was bent on world domination and the ends always justified the means,nothing and I mean nothing was out of bounds,murder,theft, bribery and lies upon lies were all widely used means to further the churches power,why is it so hard for people to believe that they would change jesus's "message" to further their power,its alot easier to control the masses if you can convince them that you and only you have their souls eternal destiny in your control.face it,all of what christians have today is tainted,it was controlled for hundreds of years by one of the most power hungry and evil institutions known to man.christians need to start using their own heads and start thinking for themselves.

Firecat, your interpretation of the generation issue,although a good one, is nothing more than that,an interpretation.jesus was explaining his second coming to the people,and what would be happening prior to that,he then told "them" that "this" generation would not pass until they had seen this.his followers of the time were sure that he meant that they would see his return,and thats because thats what was said.

in'em, once again, the statement that nothing in the bible has ever been proven wrong is 100% a false statement,there are many things that have been proven totally wrong,everything from geography(from alleged first hand witnesses),to statements allegedly uttered by jesus himself,"if a women divorces a man",a women could not divorce a man ,therefore the real jesus never would have said this.
these are just a couple that i know of,off the top of my head, and I'm far from being a biblical scholor. the only ones saying that there are no mistakes in the bible are literalist christians,and to them it doesnt matter how much evidence there is,they cant see it from their divine pedestal.

id. painter

04-07-2006, 01:00 PM

in 'em

04-07-2006, 01:21 PM

[/quote]
quote
in'em, once again, the statement that nothing in the bible has ever been proven wrong is 100% a false statement,there are many things that have been proven totally wrong,everything from geography(from alleged first hand witnesses),to statements allegedly uttered by jesus himself,"if a women divorces a man",a women could not divorce a man ,therefore the real jesus never would have said this.

[/quote]

Bartman,
I actually disagree with you here...give me an example of a proven false geographical statement in the Bible. There is not one.
I do know that many cities have been found because of the location stated in the Bible, many tools and other artifacts discovered match biblical accounts, Noah's ark was found as described in the Bible (although no one has been allowed to look closely yet), the Bible claimed the earth was round before any knew and many thought it was flat, the Bible claimed the stars to be uncountable as they still are today, the Bible Bible made claim to a gravitational field/pull as we know exists...and there is much more.
As for the statements uttered by Jesus...I'm not sure what you mean. What statement are you talking about here and how could it be wrong?
I gaurantee you the Bible is innerrant and never been proven false. As newfly said...the truth will always prevail.

Newfly...thanks for the words...and your right, truth will prevail. That is why I'm not afraid to discuss the innerancy of the Bible. I know it is the truth.

id. painter

04-07-2006, 01:51 PM

Here is a Question .
I have a beiief system that I am very confortible with . I teach it to my children as I BELIEVE it is the best way.
I do not agree with the notion that only a christian believer will be an eternally saved soul.

How can I go agenst what I believe .
Would you have me abandon what I,, in hy heart of hearts believes is an absolute universal moral principal .
How can I just say ,,,hay OK ,,,,, OOOPS ,,, my life long learning, study ,effort has all been misguided .The belief system that I use to guide my actions and life are all wrong , thanks for setting me straight ,,When I truly believe in my heart that you the "christian " who thinks they are the only humans that will be looked upon with favor in a day of judgment ...are sadly mistaken.
I cant teach my children something I dont believe.
Ethically ,,,could you ???
peace to all. id. p.

Bartman

04-07-2006, 01:57 PM

Gerasa, the place mentioned in the oldest manuscripts of Mark, is located about 31 miles from the shore of the Sea of Galilee! Those poor pigs had to run a course five miles longer than a marathon in order to find a place to drown!

in'em ,Just one of the many :shrug:

Bartman

04-07-2006, 02:17 PM

How can I go agenst what I believe .
Would you have me abandon what I,, in hy heart of hearts believes is an absolute universal moral principal .
How can I just say ,,,hay OK ,,,,, OOOPS ,,, my life long learning, study ,effort has all been misguided .The belief system that I use to guide my actions and life are all wrong , thanks for setting me straight ,,When I truly believe in my heart that you the "christian " who thinks they are the only humans that will be looked upon with favor in a day of judgment ...are sadly mistaken.
I cant teach my children something I dont believe.
Ethically ,,,could you ???
peace to all. id. p.

id painter, :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:
I,m with you man.
my mothers side of the family is ALL LDS,and to me,what is beautifull about the LDS faith is that even though they may disagree with my choice of a spiritual path,not one of them looks down on me or my faith as a sentence to eternal damnation,it just means that I've chosen a different "heaven".
IMHO when it comes to christian denominations, regarding faith&works,the mormons are strides ahead of all other denominations,they walk the walk,not just talk the talk.
also IMHO the explosion of growth with the mormon faith is a direct result of mankind starting to identify and recognize the taint that has been put on main stream christianity.
Bart

fish-n-grace

04-07-2006, 02:51 PM

Hello everybody! This is my first post on ifish and I can think of no better place to make it than on the angler's chapel. While fishing is one of my passions, serving God is what pumps me up. I love talking with others about their religon, help different people with their struggles, and recieving help from others when I'm struggling.

The reason I decided to make this post on this thread was because I thought this discussion was awesome! I should probably state that I believe that Jesus is the Son of God and that he is my best friend. The way I came to know Jesus was through my family and the bible. While this dicussion talks about the difference in opinions on the perfection of the bible, I thought I should throw in a quote by Allen Ross. Here he is discussing the story about the demon and the pigs the you guys were talking about before.

"So what looks like some mistakes on a superficial reading really are not such at all. They can be explained easily enough by considering the perspective of the different reporters. But this passage makes us aware of something very important about studying the Bible. If you go into it with the idea that the Bible is filled with irreconcilable errors and falsifications, you can find things like this that you could explain to make your point. But if you go into the study with the idea that these are careful recorders and interpreters of history and with the intent of harmonizing difficulties, you can find reasonable explanations for what appear to be discrepancies. Too many people do not put forth the effort to see if these things can be harmonized. A fundamental rule of literary criticism is that if you find an apparent error in a good author, you assume yourself ignorant until you have exhausted all possible explanations. Too many modern “scholars” do not want to assume themselves ignorant; rather, they assume they know more than the writers."

While you may be able to find little differences between older manuscripts and newer ones or with other gospels, the wisdom of the bible speaks for itself. I'm not trying to attack anyone here, I'm just trying to state what I believe. Sorry about the length of this post, but I was really excited! I hope to enjoy future debates and discussion with everyone. Thank you and God Bless!

Bartman

04-07-2006, 03:10 PM

welcome aboard fish-n-grace :wave: :wave: :wave: :wave:
the more the marrier :grin: :grin:

newfly

04-07-2006, 03:32 PM

Im a very spiritual person.
But Im going to hell, cause I believe , and worship differently. Ill be there with all my Morman friends I guess.
That is exactly why I stopped visiting and posting on the forum.
My belief system is flawed and I cant help but make decisions based on my internal ethical and moral belief system . I have been trained in Bible study ,as any good christian .
The answer it bigger than any single religion and you dont have to belong one .
Rimrock Im sure your a great person and have good intentions and Im sure we coudl be friends. But. It was your arrogant writting that cured me of wanting to disguss religion(belief systems) here. You seem to be convinced that you have a superior understanding of "lord""scripture " .
Mybe you do have a superior understanding and relationship with god than I myself have . but you may try to be less condesending .

In another post long ,I mentioned and stated my belief system.
Rimrock and a few others spend considerable time and energy Qusetioning my relationship with God cause it didnt fit thier preconcieved notion of the correct relationship.

Can you ,Rimrock, see the offensive nature of that assumption.

So as you go thru life being totally convinced that you are on the one and only correct path to salvation , please remember you do your cause no good .
Im a Morman by birth, and we(teh Mormans) are as convinced that you are misguided .
If I send the most intellectual most informed missionary to talk with you ,is he /she going to logically convince you that you are mistaken and that the Book of Morman is actually the newest word from God.
You may end up being a bit put off by the inital assumption that your system is inferior .Which is what its all about .....
I hope you see my point and dont just feel the need to argue biblical rational for disagreeing with my perspective.
Peace to all . id. p.

this is a bit of a step backwards. please, i welcome your addition to this discussion, but i think that to admonish one person is not fair. especially when i have found that one person to be one of the most gracious and most accepting of our questions.

i do understand your frustration though. it has been the nature of several religions to "force feed" their doctrines. i am actually fine with anyone, mormoms, christians, muslims.......any and all.......that is totally convinced that their doctrine is the right one. spirituality is like that. you need to be totally convinced to be able to commit to it. my point (if i have ever actually made one :grin: :grin:) is that that committment is a very personal one and a very personal journey. it seems like there should be more "tolerance" (an overused word lately) to allow for others to find their own truths and their own path. this is hard for many, i undestand that. especially those that not only commit to a doctrine but also to a set of rules that they then begin to think that everyone must live to. i guess that i respect the committment that many of you make, on a daily basis, to a doctrine that is based on your personal beliefs about what is spritually right. it is the path that gets you there and your energy to believe that you all share in common and it is that thing that i respect. as to what your doctrine is, that is not so important to me. i will find my own doctrine and i am sure it will be a little different from others, but we can still share the spirit that we each have. we are not so different.

fish-n-grace

04-07-2006, 03:54 PM

Thank you Bartman! This site is great!

BJS

04-07-2006, 05:36 PM

id painter, how ever ya want to slice that you are WAY OUT OF LINE :mad:. That was a personal attack plan and simple :sick:. I found it insulting you would come into this discussion that way, you owe an appoligy to everyone here. If ya can not man up and do so than I am sorry to say dude you need to stay away.

IMO your shootin’ the messenger when ya don’t like the message. Dissuss the message dude! you are way uncool for attackin the messenger. IF a traditionalist christian did what you did dude, we would all rail him and we know it! So I am not going to let anyway do it to anyone else and not call you out. So where is the apology to the Angers Chapel and IMO rimrock. :smash: :smash: :smash: Be cool or do not be at all. :shrug:

the mods need to delete your post - you are so uncool for that man

newfly

04-07-2006, 06:10 PM

this what happens when you attack a person rather than what a person says. things go bad.

i think that we have all come a long ways in this dicussion and that we can deal with this in a manner that shows more patience than the original post did. we are capable of that and i ask for some restraint.

rimrock is a fine man and a solid man. he can handle this. he is big enough that we do not need to respond in kind. please.

BJS

04-07-2006, 06:19 PM

Your right newfly. Thanks for pointing it out sorry about that I do not want to add to the problem – its been a cool thread. :cheers:

newfly

04-07-2006, 06:32 PM

and you bjs are a very classy guy.

Bartman

04-07-2006, 06:47 PM

I agree with newfly,rimrock has bid shoulders and I'm sure he and id painter can figure it out.
we all have our moments.

Bartman

04-07-2006, 07:13 PM

fish-n-grace, some of the errors that I'm aware of were brought to my attention(sorry,I wish I remembered the guys name) by a gentleman who is a devout christian, what led him to the errors that I heard him talk about was his in depth study of scripture,for many years he was a literalist,he wanted to be able to study the oldest manuscripts which are written in greek.long story short.after years of study he is no longer a literalist,he was suprised just how many errrors that there are.according to him one of the biggest problems came from the scribes adding what they felt was missing with a certain message, he also said a common problem was that one scribe would make comments,etc in the margins and then the next scribe would add those comments as if they were part of the original text.
I in no way argue that there is no wisdom to be had in the bible.
I do argue that christians need to stop being (pardon the pun) sheep,who are not willing to use their own minds to get past a dogma that was perpetuated by the church,whose main objectives were power and control.
anyone with an objective mind,who studys christian scripture,all come to the same conclusion,that there are errors,the only ones who dont are from the literalist crowd. I feel that the literalist crowd would rather put their fingers in their ears and go LALALALA,than to admitt the truth,because if they admitt the truth,if they admitt that there are even small errors, then they might actually have work at their own spirtualality and really figure out what their god would want of them,its much easier to foloow the dogma laid out by an institution of man,than to really find out how the divine would have us live our lives.
Bart

Bartman

04-07-2006, 07:38 PM

from a christian website:

However, most modern translations, from the Revised Standard Version (RSV) to the New International Version (NIV), use as their source for the New Testament a Greek Text based upon the Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus of the fourth century. This text, publicized by Westcott and Hort, is also known as the Alexandrian Text. It originated in Egypt and has been massaged by "higher critics" down through the ages. These manuscripts, used in the RSV, represent less than 5% of known Greek Biblical manuscripts, but are supposedly more authentic because they are "old."

how can christians argue the total infaluability of the bible,when its painfully obvious that the scriptures they have,have been massaged by "higher critics" :shrug:
Bart

FireCat

04-07-2006, 07:53 PM

its much easier to foloow the dogma laid out by an institution of man,than to really find out how the divine would have us live our lives.
Bart

[/quote]OK lets take a look at the major beliefs systems and seehow they compare with Christianity in how each of our God OR gods "WOULD HAVE US LIVE OUR LIVES". In looking at these major belief systems and their views of God, we find tremendous diversity:
Hindus believe in 300,000 gods.
Buddhists say there is no deity.
New Age followers believe they are God.
Muslims believe in a powerful but detached God.
Christians believe in a God who is loving and approachable.
A re all religions worshiping the same God? Let's consider that. New Age teaches that everyone should come to center on a cosmic consciousness, but it would require Islam to give up their God, Hinduism to give up their numerous gods, and Buddhism to establish that there is a God.
The world's major religions (Hinduism, New Age, Buddhism, Islam, following Jesus Christ) are each quite unique. And of these one affirms that there is a personal, loving God who can be known, now in this life. Jesus Christ spoke of a God who welcomes us into a relationship with him and comes along side us as a comforter, counselor and powerful God who loves us.

In Hinduism a person is on their own trying to gain release from karma. In New Age a person is working at their own divinity. In Buddhism it is an individual quest at being free from desire. And in Islam, the individual follows religious laws for the sake of paradise after death. In Jesus' teaching, you see a personal relationship with a personal God -- a relationship that carries over into the next life. Now then Can a person connect with God in this life?
The answer is yes. Not only can you connect with God, you also can know that you are fully accepted and loved by God.
Many world religions place an individual on their own, striving for spiritual perfection. Buddha, for example, never claimed sinlessness. Muhammad also admitted that he was in need of forgiveness. "No matter how wise, no matter how gifted, no matter how influential other prophets, gurus, and teachers might be, they had the presence of mind to know that they were imperfect just like the rest of us."2

Jesus Christ, however, never alluded to any personal sin. Instead, Jesus forgave people of their sin and he wants to forgive us of our sin also. We all are aware of our faults, the areas of our lives that may cause others to think less of us, areas that we ourselves wish were not there...maybe it's an addiction, a bad temper, impurity, hateful remarks. God loves us but hates sin, and he has said that the consequence for sin is separation from knowing him. But God provided a way for us to be forgiven and know him. Jesus, the Son of God, God in human form, took all of our sin on himself, suffered on a cross, and willingly died in our place. The Bible says, "By this we know love, that he laid down his life for us."3

God is offering us complete forgiveness because of Jesus' death for us. This means forgiveness for all our sins...past, present and future. Jesus paid for them all. God, who created the universe, loves us and wants to be in a relationship with us. "This is how God showed his love among us: he sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him."4

Through Christ, God offers us real freedom from our sin and guilt. He does not leave a person's failures on their shoulders, with a dim hope of becoming a better person tomorrow. In Jesus Christ, God reached toward humanity, providing a way for us to know him. "For God so loved the world that he sent his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life."5

God wants us to know him.
We were created by God to live in relationship with him. Jesus said, "He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty
Bart..I am not being sarcastic, nor am I being brash or think that I know it all, I personally have questions also but that is when my faith kicks in..and not only that..I really enjoy these post...Lord Bless

Bartman

04-07-2006, 08:26 PM

Christians believe in a God who is loving and approachable.

firecat, christian history tells a much different story.
very little of what went on for the vast majority of christian history is about love,and also for the vast majority of christian history a follower could ONLY approach "god" through a priest.
jesus's message was that the jews had it all screwed up,all you have to do is read the old testament to see just how screwed up they had it. from the time that jesus died,man has been changing his message to meet their needs.
hindus do not believe that their faith is the only "true" faith, buddhist do not believe that their faith is the only "true" religion.christians,muslims and jews have the corner on that market.and to the best of my knowledge,christians and muslims are ,if not the only,the main ones who have believed that it is perfectly alright to force conversion and kill who would not convert,or at the very least,enslave. I just dont feel the love.

fish-n-grace

04-07-2006, 08:43 PM

Thank you for your response Bartman. I do agree with you that their can be some differences between gospels and different manuscripts in regard to things like location. The reason for this is the authors main purpose was not to just write about history, but to tell about the hope and life through belief in Jesus Christ.

You also can get into a whole different debate when you talk about the early church (in Rome) affecting Christianity. What some people forget is that for a long time the bible was not written in the common language. Because of that a lot of sinful people used that to their advantage, saying things like if you pay the church money you can get your family out of hell. Thankfully there were people like Martin Luther that translated the Bible so that the common person could read it and find the truth.

I do not believe the church changed the Bible, because they were going against a lot of the doctrine that the Bible professed. If they decided to change some things, they probably would have changed a lot.

I do believe that all scripture is God-breathed and comes from God. If that is not true than our faith in Jesus is in vain. But this faith is not in vain and and our hope will not be dissapointed. I hear a lot from my friends that they believe the Bible was just made up to cover up the fear of death. Who could make up the idea that the King of Kings and Lord of Lords would die for every person in this world, even those that hate him? Who could make up the idea that God is three persons in one?

There is also someone elso that professes to the truth of the Bible, the Holy Spirit. The world does no know him because they do not seem him and the Spirit does not live in them. Everyone who believes in the name of Jesus has the Spirit living witin them. That is why it is hard for non Christians to acknowledge the Bible as truth, and we as Christians should not judge them.

All in all the differences in the debate between doctrines and interpreatations is not important. The only thing that is important is your belief in Jesus and that you love him because he first loved us. We see this displayed in the death that he died for us as we celebrate Good Friday and Easter.

Thank again Bartman for you response. Was that guy you were talking about who studied earlier manuscripts remain a follower of Jesus? Even though we may have some differences Bartman, I want you to know that I will always be loving towards you and will listen to what you have to say. I will try to show grace to everyone because Jesus showed it to me, even though I am a sinner and do some stupid things. Thank you

FireCat

04-07-2006, 10:23 PM

(and to the best of my knowledge,christians and muslims are ,if not the only,the main ones who have believed that it is perfectly alright to force conversion and kill who would not convert,or at the very least,enslave. I just dont feel the love.)
----------------------------------------------------------

Bart my good friend, dont get the so called "Christian renaissance era" intangled in your thoughts about Christians forcing death on thoes who dont believe". Anyone who has the slighest ability to read the word and get the true meaning out of it knows you dont "force" your will on anyone else.
But lets take a good look at real Christian History if you dont mind. History where People who became Christians didnt have a Bible to read, or people who didnt have anykind of Bible college taining, nor did they have a Church on any corner like today.
Not a "megachurch" anywhere, Just people who had only one thing and one thing only, and that my good friend was "faith" to the purest form. No high and mighty so-called TBN style of preaching. Just a God given faith and some very good teaching by, anointed by the Lord, Apostles. Who as a mater of fact were jailed and beaten regulary. They had a Emperior named Nero that made life miserable for Christians.
So despised was Nero that when Rome caught fire, on this day, July 19, 64, popular opinion attributed the catastrophe to him. Many citizens perished in the flames. The fire was aggravated by rowdies who threw firebrands into untouched houses, claiming they had been ordered to do so. In the public mind, those orders came from Nero. A rumor spread that Nero had appeared on a stage during the catastrophe and sung a song "comparing present misfortunes with the calamities of antiquity," especially Troy.

Nero tried to counter this downturn in his "public approval ratings" by throwing open his own resources to the homeless. He sponsored a number of religious activities designed to show himself innocent. Nothing worked. And so he determined to find scapegoats. He fastened onto the Christians as most suitable to his diabolical purpose.

A few who admitted their faith were tortured until they revealed the names of others. Beginning a few weeks after the fire, the city was the scene of every imaginable torment. And not Rome only, for persecution spread throughout the empire. But in the capital Nero held nightly spectacles in which every torture was applied to the suffering saints.

Some were burned alive. Others were sewn into the skins of wild animals and given to dogs to tear. Still others were crucified. Martyrs were exhibited in the circus with Nero presiding, dressed as a charioteer. The wicked emperor threw open his own gardens to more such spectacles. So many Christians died so brutally that public sympathy swung in their favor.

The people realized that Christians were being put to death not for starting the fire but to cover Nero's crimes and to sate his appetite for cruelty. Compassion for the meek followers of Jesus, whose blameless conduct was apparent to many, led to a new wave of conversions.

Among those who almost certainly perished in Nero's fury in Rome was the apostle Peter. Paul is thought to have been executed a few years later. Others who were martyred elsewhere in the empire were the Bishop of Damascus and a man mentioned in scripture: Joseph called Barsabas. Paul's fellow minister, Trophimus, is also said to have perished in this outpouring of hostility as did many others whose names we do not know. Christ had taught that as men persecuted him so they would persecute his followers. A servant is not above his master.
And today in Iran, Iraq, China, Afganistan Muslims are accepting Christ, not only for what a simple Missionary is telling them but given a faith by the Lord, a faith so strong that the Years of strict Muslim teaching is left behind, and these "true" Newly Christian believers are now being tortured and killed for their new found faith. By even their own kin. And you know what Bartman, just like in Neros time many of these young converts havent even began to read a Bible. So you need to ask yourself "what is it that these people have that they are willing to die for?".
You maby right on your assesment that "you dont feel the love"...but all these peolpe that are mention above do, in fact they felt the love so much they died for it....Lord Bless

happybrew

04-07-2006, 11:37 PM

very little of what went on for the vast majority of christian history is about love,and also for the vast majority of christian history a follower could ONLY approach "god" through a priest.

This is a complete distortion of the facts promulgated by atheist and secularist historians. I would suggest you read St. Theresa of Avila, St. John of the Cross, Thomas Kempis, and others from the Late Middle Ages. The early middle ages are a little sparse on spiritual literature because much of the focus was on countering heresy, however St. Anthony and others can reveal the truth about Christian practice, as opposed to what popular culture distorts it to be.

Did you know that there were Christians in India when the Europeans finally got there? They had been evangelized by St. Thomas. They understood the need for a priesthood, however without a resident bishop, they had none. Additional cultures with Christians who had no priests but wanted them include Korea and parts of China and Japan. Christians with no priest approaching God, even though they wanted priests.

In addition, Protestants typically deny the priesthood or only admit the priesthood of all believers, which Catholics also believe in.

In the Middle Ages, the most popular book apart from the Bible was "Imitation of Christ" by Thomas Kempis. It talks about the interior spiritual life, and makes minimal mention of priests, if any. I can't actually recall mention of priests in the book. It's available free through various internet resources, including Gutenberg.net. I highly recommend it. I think you have been fed a distortion of Christianity. I think if you knew what it was really about, you wouldn't be such a critic of it.

happybrew

in 'em

04-08-2006, 12:57 AM

Wow, this post is going forever!!!!!!!!!

Good discussions though...lots of history!

Fish n grace...welcome, can't agree more with everything you've posted here, you'll be a great addition to the wisdom in this chapel.

Well, I sense we're reaching the end of this discussion, but I'm sure we'll have more.

Differences aside, I want you all to know that I appreciate and respect all of you here in the chapel.

peace out!

newfly

04-08-2006, 08:58 AM

you know, this really has been a great discussion. and you all really have been a great group of people. i want to thank you for the discussion and for your patience.

this discussion has really made me think through my own spirituality. i will continue to do that but you have all allowed me to really think about it lately more than i ever have.

some of the things that i realize now? i came here because i am worried about my spirituality. i am troubled by christianity, as i have found it.......but i am equally troubled that i have not committed myself to a more spiritual life. i am not hung up on whether or not the bible is true. the bible does not have that sort of importance to me. i am much more concerned about how my spirituality, when i find out exactly what it is, will affect the way that live my life every day. if it can help me to live a better life everyday........a life that respects and helps other people on this planet......then i will have found a way that works for me and something that i can commit to. i can not follow a doctrine that has a rule book to follow, if that rule book causes me to hurt other people or to condemn other people. i simply can not do that. and i simply can not believe that God asks me to do that. i can not follow a rule book that tells me that my choice is the only true choice and that all others are wrong. you see, i know that is not true. you can talk all you want about what can and can not be proven, i know that is simply not true.

as i said before, what i have learned here from all of you is that the choice is not as important as it is that we make a choice. it is the pursuit of that life and choice that is important. i honestly respect all of you that have made that choice and follow your heart. i am not worried about what that choice is, wheter it be as bartman has made or whether you follow the muslim, mormon or christian faith........as long as you follow because you believe it is right........not just to protect your "after life" or "just in case". as long as it positively affects the world. i do enjoy hearing about each persons choice and this discussion, done very openly and respectfully, has been a 10 in that regard.

those are the things that are important to me. many of you have already found a way to those things and i am very envious of that.

Bartman

04-08-2006, 12:08 PM

Post deleted by Bartman

AnglersRental

04-08-2006, 12:56 PM

You mean as opposed to the Vikings who managed to ****, pillage, and plunder their way across most of their known world for what reason? Perhaps it is useful to look at those or any historical events in the context of the times? It sure seems awful easy to condem people and events in the past based on our understanding of morality today. I wonder if we would even be where we are and who we are today if it wasn't for those events that happened in the past?

Perhaps God is just as concerned with our growth and development as an entire species as He is with our indivigual growth and development? The Lords prayer says "On Earth as is is in Heaven" not the other way around. As I read the Bible, both old testament and new, God is both highly critical and ultimately saddened by the those very kind of events you refer to. Only God refers to the failings of all of mankind, not just the failings of Christians.

Perhaps the church and our understanding of Gods will for it and mankind and even our own sense of morality has grown and evolved for the better over time and continues to do so today?

Perhaps we are now closer to God today in many different ways than ever before in history?

Perhaps God wants it that way?

Brad

FireCat

04-08-2006, 01:36 PM

(May Odin give you knowledge of your path. May Thor grant you strength and courage on your way. may Frigga give you love and laughter as you go, Odin, frigga, thor, tyr freya,balder,loki)

THOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME
Many people, when they read the First Commandment's reference to ancient Egypt feel as though it does not apply to them. They do not appreciate that the "out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage" refers not only to the ancient physical Exodus of God's people, but to how God's people are delivered today from slavery to sin, from bondage to Satan, the "other god of this world" Just as Moses was the deliverer of physical Israelites, so Jesus Christ is the Deliverer of spiritual Israelites:
"God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will." (2 Timothy 2:25-26 KJV)
"But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord." (Romans 7:23-25 KJV)

"There shall come out of zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins." (Romans 11:26-27 KJV)

"Other gods" have a contagious worthlessness - those who worship worthless gods become worthless in God's sight:

"Behold, ye are of nothing, and your work of nought: an abomination is he that chooseth you" (Isaiah 41:24 KJV)
"But The Lord is the true God, He is the living God, and an everlasting king: at His wrath the earth shall tremble, and the nations shall not be able to abide His indignation. Thus shall ye say unto them, The gods that have not made the heavens and the earth, even they shall perish from the earth, and from under these heavens." (Jeremiah 10:10-11 KJV)
Just a few things to ponder my good friend Bartman...Lord Bless

fish-n-grace

04-08-2006, 02:05 PM

Thank you in'em for your kind words. Ifish is awesome!

the three fold god/goddess aspect is much older than christianity,the christian church didnt adopt the "trinity" belief until hundreds of years after jesus's time.

I know that the church did not officially except the idea of the trinity for awhile after Jesus's death and resurection, but the concept goes back to as early as Genesis. "Then God said, "Let us make man in our image and in our likeness" (Genesis 1:26)". Jesus also acknowledged this when he proclaimed that he was in the Father and the Father was in him and they were one.

Yes, there have been some dark times in the history of Christianity. This is because we are still sinners and capable of doing evil. Even though Jesus lives inside of us, we are still trapped in this body of flesh, resulting in a stuggle between our natural evil desires and the rightoues desires of the spirit. There were also evil men in power during the past that wanted to please themselves instead of God. The problem was nobody could say they were wrong because the Bible was not written in the common language.

The struggle with sin is a daily battle. Everything can be going good, than out of nowhere something causes us to slip and fall. It seems like their is no hope when we are in the midst of this war. But thanks be to God for sending his own Son to take our place and conquering death through his resurection. God bless and Happy Easter!

happybrew

04-08-2006, 05:41 PM

You mentioned "countering heresy",awful nice way to put killing those who didnt toe the church doctrine line.

I would submit that this is a popular falsehood. While it is true that there have been periods where the civil authority did punish heresy with death, the Church did not do so. Furthermore, the civil authority only did so for a short period of Christian history. The usual response to Christian heresy was to call a Church Council and clarify Church teaching. People would either accept it or break away.

If you take, for example, the Arian heresy, non-Arian Christians were a distinct minority for a period of time in the Roman Empire and were subject to persecution by the Arian majority. It was through preaching and the calling of the First Council of Nicea that it was ended. The handling of the Arian heresy is typical of the handling of heresy in the Church. There in fact exist to this day numerous churches, typically in the Middle East, which reflect the different developments in Christian doctrine which were later called heretical. They broke away, and no armies went to go crush them, which one would think would happen if what you say is true. To the contrary, efforts, many successful, were made to bring them back into the fold through persuasion and negotiation.

for the biggest part of christian history christians couldnt even read the bible and HAD to go to the priest, the church fought to keep it that way for a long time.

It is true that for the biggest part of ALL history people couldn't read. How is this the Church's fault? And if they couldn't read, how else are they to learn than by someone telling them?

I detect in your answer a lot of hostility, because you are blaming the Church for a situation that existed naturally, and well apart from any Church influence. In fact, you are calling "bad" something the Church did, but in other threads have explicitly admitted your own religious tradition does, namely passing on teachings by oral tradition. If you want to be fair, you must also condemn all religious traditions which have passed on teachings orally by clergy to a largely illiterate population, particularly where religious texts exist. This means you must condemn Tibetan Bhuddism, Indian Hinduism, Islam, Greek and Roman paganism, etc. They all did this.

In fact, if you actually take your argument against the Church seriously, you must therefore hold your own religious tradition even more suspect because you have admitted before that it is passed on without the existence of written texts. Without written texts to verify that the teaching is correct, anybody could change what they want in order to control others.

if you want to go back and "cherry pick" the warm and fuzzy parts of christian history your only diluding yourself to the not warm and fuzzy "real" history.

I am well aware of the parts of Christian history which are not very nice. I am not, as you state, "deluded". I think the real issue is whether we want to exaggerate it, ignore it, or use it as a club to wollop people with. Your own religious tradition includes those things you condemn about Christianity, but I don't see you abandoning your paganism because of it. In fact, if you abandon religion all together and embrace atheism, you can't get away from the bloodshed caused by Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, the French Revolution, etc. You responded to an off-hand comment I made about the fact that Njal's Saga was bloody by "history has its rough moments" http://www.ifish.net/forum/showflat.php?...rue#Post1112000 (http://www.ifish.net/forum/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB19&Number=1112000&Searc hpage=1&Main=1109812&Words=Njal%27s+Saga&topic=&Se arch=true#Post1112000)

You seemed quite ready to dismiss the blood in pagan history. You are clearly unwilling to dismiss the blood in Christian history. Does your standard only go one way?

happybrew

newfly

04-08-2006, 06:08 PM

wow hb, i'm surprised by your post. especially the last sentence. why so defensive? the discussion here was not about pagan history but was about christian history. i think that is why bm mentioned that. you can not justify violence in the manner that you have chosen to do so. saying it isn't so bad because others have done it too.........well is just wrong. it is bad logic and even more important it skirts the whole issue, and if the issue is not addressed nothing can ever be done to see that it does not repeat itself.

at the same time i think that we get a little confused in this whole discussion. the blood shed is always done by people, not by their God(s). the people sometimes try to defend it by saying that it is being done in the name of the religion, but it isn't. we need to keep that in mind. many people have mentioned this. it is a fault of people. i do not believe that the religions themselves condone or endorse the violence.

i think that bm's point is that christianity faces this dilemna more acutely than some religions, based on the necessity that it has that its more "fanatical" followers must believe that it is indeed the one and only "true way" and that any other "way" is a direct challenge to christianity, or to the "truth".

on a lesser level than direct violence, we see this philosphy here sometimes. we have seen people on this ng use the bible as a reason to endorse discrimination against people who chose an alternative lifestyle. we have seen people here speak about how everyone other than christians are destined to a life in hell. we have seen first hand the discrimination that begins to creep into the words of some people, based and justified on their interpretation of the bible and its "truths". i do not mean to attack christianity, just that portion of it that causes some followers to judge, in a very discriminatory and final manner, the lives of everyone that is not like them. that is where i begin to step away. you can deny it, you can try to explain it, but it is there and it is of a great concern to me.

FireCat

04-08-2006, 06:38 PM

Newfly...What must be understod here, and ill shoot from the hip so to speek, is Christians, many of who, are not taught in the defence of love and forgiveness.
They want to hit you on the head with thir Bible or spout of with condeming scripture, that is used out of context.
Christ taught very strictly to forgive, not argue, not take relitive action against any one who dosent believe what you say, AND JUST MOVE ON.
But it is sinful human instinct to lash out so to speak,
to get ones point across, and what many imature Christians forget is its the Holy spirit that deals with the human heart we or I cant do anything, just plant a seed.
Even in the Muslim faith which I do not agree with, but I will agree that the 72 virgins given to a person who acts as a martyrs who blow themselvs up, this is made up by radicals, there is nothing in the Muslim faith that states that this is the way one should go about bringing revenge.
Also the so called good ole boys from the south who wear the white hoods and call themselves the KKK even thinks they are mighty Christians carring out the will of God by killing blacks, because they somehow brought in the idea that the black man origanated from cain.
So many times thoes that are against Christ and everything he pertains to will use these ugly acts against done against mankind as a testament that ALL Christians are this way. And I am sure you are awear of this is not true.
Any Christian who is worth his or her weight in salt knows that Christ taught "I have come not to condem but to save"
Then we as slaves to him are no better than our master.
I am under a pain pill now so I hope this is a little clear
Lord Bless

happybrew

04-08-2006, 07:11 PM

Newfly, I'm not trying to be defensive, or justify violence. I'm simply trying to point out that if we apply the standard to one, we should apply it to all. Bartman makes it out to be that Christianity is responsible for mass bloodshed and illiteracy, and this is simply not true. I have pointed out what I believe are errors in his facts and his logic.

What bugs me about the whole business is that a person can attack your religion, but if you reply then you're defensive. If you try to expand the scope of the discussion to include how that attack may also apply to the religion of the other guy, then you're missing the point because it's not about the other guy's religion. There is a big double standard here.

For example, we are accused, as you point out, of having the audacity to say that we have the only way. But in arguing this, you are in fact saying that our way is incorrect and that yours is the only way, and that Christianity is a direct challenge to your way of thinking. This is the very thing you accuse Christians of.

This is a problem in the type of logic being used. It is not an inherently objective standard. It very easily lends itself to being turned against its user. That means either that it's not a very good logical standard, or that it is a good logical standard which is not being fairly applied. In either case, objectivity has gone out the window. I don't think it's defensive to point this out.

The fact that people apply double standards and don't consider the impact of their arguments on their own position is why I decided a while back not to engage in this sort of discussion. Now that I've broken my own rule, I guess I needed to explain myself further, but I don't hold high hopes for all this.

happybrew

newfly

04-08-2006, 07:48 PM

For example, we are accused, as you point out, of having the audacity to say that we have the only way. But in arguing this, you are in fact saying that our way is incorrect and that yours is the only way, and that Christianity is a direct challenge to your way of thinking. This is the very thing you accuse Christians of.

happybrew

well, you had to really leap to get where you just tried to go. you would need to show me where i ever said that, in fact, if you read what i have written throughout this thread, i have said just the opposite. rather than just say again what i have said before, i will let you go back and read what i have written before.

it is hard to have a discussion when the concept of opposites is used by someone. exageration is not a format for understanding.

it is also clear that you feel offended in some way by what a few of us have said. for my part, there is no offense intended and certainly i hope that i have said what i have had to say with a measure of respect because you deserve that. it has been a great discussion but has begun to turn a bit in the last day or so. it just seems that some are not looking at this as a discussion but rather as some sort of heresy against christianity. this will be my last post in this thread as that feeling serves none of us well.

happybrew

04-08-2006, 08:51 PM

Newfly, you are correct. You were interpreting Bartman's point, and I erroneously attributed that to you. My apologies. My reply to that argument remains the same, though.

In response to your other points, it's not so much that I am offended as I am exasperated. For the life of me, I can't understand why people want to use this forum as a criticism of other religions. I'd prefer to live and let live. A reply in defense regarding the logic being used is interpreted as being offended or defensive, so this will be my last post on this, or any other sort of debate here. I don't really care what others believe. It's not a concern to me. I am concerned when people attack my religion, however, and my only intent was to point out that the argument used easily applied to the other side as well. Peace.

happybrew

Bartman

04-09-2006, 10:04 AM

Post deleted by Bartman

FireCat

04-09-2006, 12:23 PM

Bartman...I am in agreement that many early years when so called "christian power trip" many ended up killed in the name of God. But with intelligent reasoning this is NOT what Christ taught.
This is what MAN would consider "God would want us to do this" reasoning.
Jesus was not on any kind of power trip. Those who brought terror in his name, will so be judged by their actions.
And I am in agreement with you that Vikings did plunder and kill and so forth, but it did not make it wright for So called Priest or clergy to order the death of thoes that didnt believe or commit heresy.
I think it is quite ironic that Vikings and Swedes would kill and punder, but the so called christianity that was spreading across europe at the time would go against thoes like the vikings and what not buy counteracting their ways by putting to the death thoes that commited heresy or wouldnt conform to a christian.
I have never ever read where Christ ordered the killing of anyone. Now saying that I do believe that we should defend the inocent, help thoes that are being taken advantaged of by a "evil" power so to speek that is killing inocent victims.
And why God allowed so called leaders to give the go ahead
to slaughter people in the name of christianity we will never know this side of heaven.
But as was mentioned earlier in these post I think we as Christians have come to the knowledge that being Christ like intails being loving and forgiving, and dont argue to the point of being hateful, one must understand that its the Holy Spirits Job of converting a heart, not ours.
These post have been fun Bartman and all who have joined in
but enough has been said on my part., I must now do my every two year computer upgrade to keep up with the "gamming"
industry, that this 56 YEAR OLD teen ager likes to play.
And again Bartman you are a very intelligent and so are many others on here that put in your 2cents worth, I may not agree with your religious point of view but you dont agree with alot of mine also, which means one thing, we are both human.
And I promise I wont cut your head off if you dont accept Christ, as long as you dont come over and raid and pillage my neighborhood...deal?....Lord Bless

Bartman

04-09-2006, 03:53 PM

Post deleted by Bartman

in 'em

04-10-2006, 09:19 AM

Just to make it perfectly clear to all, I am not attacking christianity as a religion,I am attacking IMHO the small minded concept of we're the only ones who got it right,so the rest can burn in hell.

But what if you're wrong??? :shrug: What if there is only one way to heaven...every other to hell?

Just make sure you think through it all oh so carefully...

Instead of a defensive and pessamistic approach to the Bible and Chritianity because some fleshly human or church experience turned you off...try an optimistic believing approach and see how it feels to believe what is written in God's Word. What if it is true! :shocked:

Forget the titles...Christianity, Catholic, Jew, Muslim, whatever...if you believe in the person of Jesus Christ and that he died for your sins, that he rose form the dead and is coming again, you are saved. Happy Easter! :grin:

???...look at the proof and approach Jesus with belief and find what you've been missing...instead of trying to find the contradictions or human error. :flowered:

If you truly do this and still don't have faith and believe there is only one way, then you have your own reason...