Columbia Closure

[Barnyard]

The Columbia river will be closed to Chinook retention This fall. There will be a "targeted " Gill net fishery for Sturgeon in August. Coho (oh boy) Can be retained if clipped. The Gillnet fishery will have to use 9" mesh nets. Incedental Chinook can be kept & sold. Why a Sturgeon fishery in August? Why not a "targeted" fishery in June if we are worried about to many Kings being caught?

[Eric]

Because it appears politics over good science have, are, and will rule until it is too late.

Have a nice day.

[Dennis Stewart S.M.G.S]

Barnyard,where did you get your Info.? Was it a good reliable sorce? Just curious.

[Barnyard]

Dennis - I got my info from a bud in the Vancover office of WDFW. Unfortunatly he's always been reliable..The only trib open for Chinook retention below Bonniville will be the Elocoman(sp) in Cathlamette.


Wisdom - Why not a June fishery. There would be no ESA problem and no Chinook by catch. The only reason for an August fishery that I can see is to "allow" for a Chinook incidental catch

[Deleted User]

Barnyard,
Does that chinook closure on the columbia include above Bonneville Dam too????

[Barnyard]

Wisdom I was unaware of that. In your opinion wouldn't there be a better time than August. Maybe later Like eary Sept. It just seems that the fish we're trying to protect are being impacted by all user groups except sport fishermen, which is fine if it's what's needed to help the runs out. Just seems we're on the short end more often than not..


No squabbles Wisdom just concern.....

I think above Bonniville will be open...Wisdom?

[Deleted User]

At the fishermen's boat tow rally a few weeks ago, during the hearings about proposals to remove some Snake R. dams, a number of prominent speakers addressed the subject of possible Columbia R. fishing closures for fall fish. Among them was Jim Martin, former head of the ODFW and top expert fish biologist. He and the others were adamantly against any need to take this fishery away from us. The thing that stuck out in my mind was that both he, and Buzz Ramsey representing NSIA, showed evidence that us sportfishers have the least impact on those runs in recent years- ONLY a 1% impact. They urged for us not to accept a closure, so maybe another rally is needed if there will be public hearings as there should be. Let them hear your voice via mial for sure. - Steve

[dawhunt]

Not only are we loseing fall chinook fishing in the lower river and its tribs.I understand there is chance, we'll also lose sturgeon fishing in the esturay(sp) in august also,seems we'er catching to many ???If thats true WHY ?? do the gillnetters get a season down down there ????.This whole thing stinks what do the salmon in the lower river have to do with escapement above the dam.(Is it true that the gillnetters and the indians have formed a coalition and is this the reason we are all of A SUDDEN LOSEING OUR FISHING.THERE IS GOING TO BE A LAWSUIT FILED AGAINST THE INDIANS IN THE COMEING WEEKS (sorry about the caps),they are the main rteason we'er loseing the fall fishing something about we have to give up our fish so they can get there quota (?).I got my info from my club pres.( southwest washington anglers)if you want his name and an address I'll give that to you I won't give out his ph.# without his permission.I don't want to be a bitcher or sniveler,I just want to be able to FISH !!!it seems like we just keep loseing more and more of our fishing and they keep getting more and more.
Bob

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Bob Dawson

[This message has been edited by dawhunt (edited 04-22-2000).]

[Mike H]

dawhunt,

I'm afraid I don't understand... Are you saying that the tribes are the reason we're losing "our" fall fishery? Sounds a bit ridiculous to me.

Mike H

[dawhunt]

Mike,thats the way it was explaned to us it has something to do with there quota,I have to be honest I didn't really understand it myself it was something to do with there percentage of the catch.I asked if that meant they were going to start netting below the dam the answer was no.This reminds me of when they stopped putting coho in the washougal river and started putting them in the rivers above the dam to stop the indians from comeing down here and netting the tribs. below the dam.So now all the coho produced at the washougal hatchery are transported to the upper river I'm sorry not all the coho but a major majority some are
taken to other rivers.Again I will give you my presidents name and an address where you can write him for more info.

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Bob Dawson

[Barnyard]

I believe the problem between the Satates, Feds, & Tribes is over the percentage of ESA listed Salmon each group is to harvest before stopping the season. If I recolect the tribes we're wanting to take all the ESA fish the Feds would allow(9%), Leaving none for the non-tribal commercial & sport fishermen..At least this was the jist of the Spring Chinook closure on the Columbia..Think it's the same problem now...

Not trying to bash any group

[TheRogue]

You have to remember. The tribes are allocated rights to 1/2 of the run. By treaty. That is the number one most important thing. In the political and judicial climate we are stuck with today, that will be the bottom line in any lawsuit. How do we solve that? Let's set up a big trap at the top of the Bonneville dam fish ladder, and take one-half of the fish, letting all of the wild steelhead and whatever salmon that the bioligists decide need to pass over the dam right on through.

However, the tribes are guaranteed FISHING rights to half of the fish, not, I believe, just HARVEST rights. So there goes that idea.

What to do? Probably the only way to change the system is to re-negotiate the treaties for specific changes to those fishing rights. And of course, that will NEVER HAPPEN.

I hold nothing against the tribes, however, a monofiliment net placed by a motorboat doesn't seem to me to hold to the ideas of the treaties. Also, it's Y2K. It's time for everyone to make sacrifices, not just the commercials and us sportsfishermen.

As for the sturgeon fishery, if you follow the damn counts historically, I believe that August is probably the best time for those nets to be in the water....IF they really need to be, anyway.

TheRogue

[Deleted User]

For any of you that are members of the Washington based Piscatorial Pursuits website, you know how strongly we all debated the Native American treaties and the subsequent infamous Judge Boldt decision to allow Indians half the harvestable salmon and steelhead runs in WA state waters. I wish I had the particulars of those laws in front of me to quote from. Do any of you WA readers have the sad facts? I don't think they were allowed 50% of all the fish or we wouldn't have any left by now! That would be like putting a bowl of Alpo in front of a hungry canine; gulp down half of what's left each time and poof goes the can (I know not all Indians have this mentality, but too many do). - My contention in posts up there were that I don't believe the issue of adjusting the Boldt decision is hopeless; as a majority of WA anglers think. At the heart of the issue up North is the treaty allowance and abuses in overnetting wild native steelhead on the Oly. Penn. Really sad for the resourse as well as for anglers. We did not debate the Columbia Tribal treaties in regards to % and laws pertaining to Indian netting above Bonn. Dam and it's affects on sportfishing. I don't have time right now to look into the written details. I would love to have an official from the states or the NMFS on our Chat or this post thread so we know exactly what we are debating. Anyone with the facts, please post them here. We can generate sportfisher rep. and group protests at the upcoming public hearings about these likely Col. closures. - As for my own opinion: I would love to see Native Americans have the same chance to go out and live, work, fish with one hook and line, and socialize among the multiethnic society of this country- instead of living within the crippling dependance of outdated welfare status treaties. And guess what- THEY DO! Treaties were based on the conditions of the world at that time, and they no longer exist. Treaties and fishing rights for Indian netters, commercial netters, and sportfishers need to be readjusted to fit the modern conditons that exist. We change society's laws all the time to fit NOW. What is so sacred about the treaties that they can't be touched?- As one P.P. BB poster put it up North; "the Indians were conquered by our ancestors (not us), just as the Native tribes conquered each other. And when one tribe conquered an occupying tribe they did not set aside land for their conquered peoples and give them rights to 50% of all the Buffalo- they simply removed them and killed most of them. Should we search for any ancestors of spared females from the original occupying tribes that the aggressive Indian tribes forced out and give them everything instead of the more aggressive Indian survivors?" Pretty hard take, but probably has some relative credence. I say no we shouldn't, but we should alter the improper interpretation of the treaties by such as Judge Boldt and stop allowing too much Indian netting. They can continue to practice some of their historic customs without having to turn the present world upside down over it. We don't allow Indians to don warpaint and attack other tribes and kill buffalo anymore as was their customs. Why allow the netting into extinction the nates of the Oly. Penn, and cut out us sportfishers from the Columbia R. so they can live in the past? Only now with modern tech.'s (motor boats and modern nets) on a fraction of the historical fish numbers! I think there is a basis for a challenge to the status quo here! - Steve

[Dennis Stewart S.M.G.S]

Steve,
you hit that one right on the head!

[Barnyard]

I believe the Boldt decision gives the State the ability to stop tribal harvest for conservation purposes. The States to this time have coward away from taking this meaningful step. Other than shutting down sportfishing...Some tribes have down some very good work,
but to many abuse the fact no one polices them other than "tribal cops"

Wisdom after checking my harvest stats you are right about an EARLY Aug. fishery. A 2 day fishery Aug.4-5 last year took 379 fish the majority were up river & mid-columbia brights but it was the lowest catch in that time slot..This is providing there are Kings in the river in June & July. Still checking on those "June Hogs".......

Keep the faith

[Deleted User]

Wisdom - Yes. I knew. But you know what? I'm kinda gettin' used to your nose. In fact I'm kinda lookin' forward to seeing more of it around here now that I've learned that you are listed as a marine biologist. And Lord knows I've got a rather sore nose for sure.-- My take on Indian treaty netting was by no means to suggest they are most at fault for the declines of NW anadromous fish stocks. Everyone knows it's the Mexican farm workers(jk!).- It's obviously the dams! But as with ocean survival rates, in reality there seems very little we can do to reduce the fish mortality affects of a majority of these dams. I hope I'm wrong, but it is an immensely complex challenge to correct! Were you at the Portland conference hearings on the prospects of removing 3 or 4 Snake R. dams? Unfathomable costs to society economically; and major lifestyle reversal. The human harvest of fish should not be so complex. It should be within control to regulate properly and more fairly. Unlike commercial and Indian netters, sportfishers can release native fish to help to restore these precious and irreplacable wild fish. You mentioned that these 3 user groups are fighting over a 9% impact on Col. R. fish runs. Former head of ODFW and renowned fish biologist (of which you must be aware) Jim Martin, along with other accredited experts, claim that the sportfishing impact on Col. fall chinook runs is only 1% in recent years with reg.s as they are (heard them say it in person; they even got out the ol' pie charts- still effective). So with a 9% human harvest factor, thus 8% nettng, they were adamant that it is unfair and unnecessary for sportfishing opportunity to be taken away! With the commercial netters also being pushed off the river, that scenario certainly seems to be outside the already unfair terms of the 50% Indian treaty allocation of the harvestable fish. Who the hell do they have by the balls????? And why? What's going on here with plans to close off the sportfishers in that scenario? I figure that the "powers to be" need to find out that us sportsfishers are also constituents. WE VOTE TOO! Just like myself and others suggested on the WA website, we need to unite as sportfishers to organize more demonstrations like the one at the aforementioned conference. Much easier to talk about than pull off. It's our collective achilles heel- not being able to properly organize NW anglers to form a powerful voice to contend with when the pie gets sliced. The commercial guys and the Indians have had this going for them for years. However, during ongoing attempts in WA to form the Washington Anglers Alliance, they are shooting themselves in the foot by inter-squabbling over the direction their efforts should go. Too much self-interest division hurting the big picture! I propose for some prominent members of the Assoc. of NW Steelheaders step up their efforts to organize all sportfishers together and drive to hire fish bio.s, lawyers, and lobbyists to stand up for our causes. We would certainly get some financial backing from NSIA (National Sportfishing Industry Assoc.). Read Buzz Ramsey's article in the Feb./Mar. issue of STS Mag. entitled "NSIA Fin Clips- How Politics Affect Your Fishing and My Job" Pg. 24. Something needs to be done to establish a stronger position for the sportsmen! We have already shown willingness to properly release native fish, so don't cut us off a major fishery altogether when that is NOT fair or the answer!! - Steve Hanson

[This message has been edited by RT (edited 04-24-2000).]

[This message has been edited by RT (edited 04-25-2000).]

[Barnyard]

R.T. couldn't agree more. Hope your wrong on the WAA though. We need representation...

[Barnyard]

The states had the permits to re-open the Columbia a few days after the 16th. They refused because the Feds were inforcing the ESA harvest under different sections for the non-tribal vs. Tribal fishery. Don't mean to nit pick but if the commercial fishers got 500 fish and the sporties got 200 how could they both get 1%....


Do appreciate your input...

[Deleted User]

Wisdom- I only recall one or two posters mentioning anything about commercial & tribal netters uniting. I don't know anything about that. Your cliche' about "united we stand" holds true only if we stand on the same principals. That's a pretty good stretch for comm. netters and sportsfishers, to say the least! - Steve

[Nanook]

First let me say as a newcomer, this site is
awesome, but you knew that. A live bait vending machine in Tillamook after all these
years, grin. Don't know about the rest of you
but I LIVE for August right below Bonneville
for upriver brights. Have been waiting since
last August and now see these exchanges. I
don't even NEED two a day, just let me fish!
Hope it all works out like the rest of us.
See you on the river in the Blue Asaltor!

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[Nanook]

Interesting. Hope the right people see this.
Salmon Like La Nina

Unlike Previous Years, The Fish Are Plentiful Biologists Credit The
Cool, Rainy Weather

On the Columbia River

CBS Rivers and streams in the Northwest are full of salmon.

(CBS) On the CBS WeatherWatch front, it's been a cool,
rainier-than-usual spring in the Pacific Northwest. It is what they
used to call "nice weather for ducks."

But as CBS News Correspondent John Blackstone reports, this year it's
great weather for fish.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
---------- Along the mighty Columbia River it is standing room only.
If there were any more boats, they'd need a traffic cop.

"Lot better than years past, lot better. Looking good," says fisherman
Dan Cankleburg.

The fishermen are reaping a harvest of salmon that they have long been
denied.

For years salmon populations here have been in serious decline. But
this year above the Bonneville Dam, there are salmon by the thousands.

One observer notes that where normally 600 to 700 salmon went over
Bonneville on a real good day lately there have been counts of 7,000 a
day.

There's nothing fishy about those figures. All the salmon that go past
the Bonneville Dam are counted as they go by - sort of a salmon census.

Fish counter Lucille Worsham has come to admire the determination of
these salmon battling their way upstream to spawn.

Biologists credit the La Nina weather pattern. It's brought cool ocean
temperatures that help produce the food that salmon need. And
plentiful La Nina rains in the Northwest have kept rivers and streams
full and healthy.

Biologist Gary Johnson says the weather might be hard on tourists but
it's good for fish.

But if La Nina is responsible, this population boom may be short term.
While it lasts, though, some fishermen are getting the salmon of their
dreams.

"They're the oiliest, richest fish there is," one fisherman says,
adding, "Don't tell anybody."




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[Ramstrong]

What gives with this? This is unreal. Close it to sport and commercial fishers but let the tribe have free reign. If this happens to the fall fishery I'm going to be ****** off to no extent. http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/index.ssf?/news/oregonian/00/05/lc_51sold04.frame

[Nanook]

I just saw this article too! I am all for
rights, but me too ****** off if this
happens and we can't fish in August.

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